Author Topic: Errors In Animorphs series  (Read 14598 times)

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Offline Shark Akhrrana

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2009, 12:00:30 AM »
When the Elimist took Elfangor he kinds of tweaked two time line. In one he had been with his people the entire time grew up and everything and Aximili  grew up with him.
In the time line when he was human Aximili was never born  but he has Tobias. The Elimist made it so that both could exist.
That is why in book 7 the Future controller Rachel had never seen Aximili. that was from the different time line where Aximili didn't exist.
So maybe the Elimist didn't have to give him the picture maybe his family already had it from the other time line where Aximili was born.
Maybe he has it as a reminder of a past he never had. i mean having to pretend to remember what you did when you didn't do it must be hard.

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Offline anijen21

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2009, 12:05:04 AM »
When the Elimist took Elfangor he kinds of tweaked two time line. In one he had been with his people the entire time grew up and everything and Aximili  grew up with him.
In the time line when he was human Aximili was never born  but he has Tobias. The Elimist made it so that both could exist.
That is why in book 7 the Future controller Rachel had never seen Aximili. that was from the different time line where Aximili didn't exist.
So maybe the Elimist didn't have to give him the picture maybe his family already had it from the other time line where Aximili was born.
Maybe he has it as a reminder of a past he never had. i mean having to pretend to remember what you did when you didn't do it must be hard.

I haven't read #7 in a really long time but this doesn't make any sense. Even before all the nonsense with the Time Matrix, Elfangor was doing his "wish-flower" ritual for Ax, and it's never really described but I figured he was wishing for his brother to be born safely, meaning his mother was already pregnant. I mean it's kind of weird to be "wishing" for your parents to successfully conceive, but WHATEVER THEY'RE ALIENS.

I can't really say anymore until I read #7, but in the end of the Andalite Chronicles, it's fully implied that Ax is alive and well before the Ellimist changes the timeline. Elfangor sees him running all determined and warrior-like. It could just be one of these infamous (and on-topic!) plot holes, but I never got the impression that Ax didn't exist without Elfangor there.

I need to keep rereading idk!

ETA: OH **** no I just checked the AC to double check and you're right. It still doesn't make any sense, lol, but whatever, I'll run with it. We're really getting down to semantics now, this all stretches back to my initial argument that Elfangor's picture was of his kids, not his parents and Ax, so let's review. Elfangor was maybe, what, 14 at least, 20 at the most, when he was on the StarSword. Ax hadn't been born yet at this point. He goes off on an awesome adventure, both where he is artificially aged by the Time Matrix, and spends like between 2 and 5 years with Loren as a human. I am willing to allow that the both the time he aged in the fake-universe and the time he spent with Loren didn't actually count for any "aging"--that is, the Ellimist would have undone the aging in the fake-universe, and he spent most of his time with Loren as a human, and my theory is that you only age in the morph you're currently in. SO. What we've got is Elfangor as a 14-20 year old with a really, really little Ax. We don't know Andalite gestation time, but for argument's sake let's just assume it's 9 months. If Ax wasn't born in the alternate timeline, it would imply that no, his mother was not pregnant with him, so even if she got pregnant THE SECOND Elfangor returned, Ax is somewhere between 14 and 21 years younger than Elfangor.

For there to be a picture of Ax as a kid, even a 1-2 year old, Elfangor would have to be 15-23 years old. Is a 15-year old Andalite going to look "child-like" or "adult-like?" I don't know. YMMV. I still think I have enough to substantiate my argument, and hell you guys, I'm sticking to it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 12:23:01 AM by anijen21 »
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Offline Aaronus

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2009, 12:20:21 AM »
Considering how fast Applegate and her ghostwriters produced the books, they're pretty decent for the amount of errors. They sure could have done better though!

Offline Shark Akhrrana

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2009, 12:32:12 AM »
I still think I have enough to substantiate my argument, and hell you guys, I'm sticking to it.

Yeah there is nothing wrong with him having a family since the Elimist did change his entire life it wouldn't be fair for him to stay alone forever. Elfangor didn't think he was going back to Earth again he is a strong good looking guy ( by Andalite standards I assume)  I see absolutely no reason why he couldn't have his own Andalite family.

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Offline anijen21

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2009, 12:39:14 AM »
Yeah there is nothing wrong with him having a family since the Elimist did change his entire life it wouldn't be fair for him to stay alone forever. Elfangor didn't think he was going back to Earth again he is a strong good looking guy ( by Andalite standards I assume)  I see absolutely no reason why he couldn't have his own Andalite family.

He was a HERO I mean sheesh, I would figure the girls would be clamboring all over him.

I think there have been a couple of decent fics about Elfangor's courting/dating/refusing girls based on his angst over Loren. Or if there haven't been, there should be.
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Offline Darth Revan

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2009, 12:52:32 PM »
Can you say fan fic? :woot:
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2009, 01:12:33 PM »
I don't think the thing with Ax makes much sense either. I mean the wish flower thing suggests to me that his mother is already pregnant. Though I suppose maybe they were just trying to get pregnant. But in that case, how would he know it's going to be a boy? Maybe he/they were hoping for a boy in particular. If his mother was only trying to get pregnant, Elfangor's disappearance may have made her not want to anymore, and thus not give birth to Ax.

As for the hologram being of Elfangor's wife and kids, I never thought of that. It's possible, though I get the feeling that Elfangor was only back in the war for a short time before returning to Earth. The war started in the 60's, Elfangor was an aristh five years into it, he spent 20 years here with Loren, and the series starts in the mid to late 90's. Is that really enough time to get over Loren and get a new family, then have kids?


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Offline Shark Akhrrana

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2009, 01:20:02 PM »
Elfangor explained that his parents were preparing. So not sure if that means she was already pregnant maybe planing on becoming pregnant.

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Offline Darth Revan

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2009, 01:58:58 PM »
hmm... if only KA could elaborate.  :-[
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Offline anijen21

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2009, 04:55:54 PM »
As for the hologram being of Elfangor's wife and kids, I never thought of that. It's possible, though I get the feeling that Elfangor was only back in the war for a short time before returning to Earth. The war started in the 60's, Elfangor was an aristh five years into it, he spent 20 years here with Loren, and the series starts in the mid to late 90's. Is that really enough time to get over Loren and get a new family, then have kids?

For some reason I find Ax's and Elfangor's parents very compelling figures. I don't know why.

I'm kind of confused as to where you're getting these dates. Chapman and Loren talk about Vietnam in the AC like it's over. Vietnam ended in 1975. I thought the AC took place in the 80s at some point. The HBC takes place in the late 60s, and that was before Alloran was disgraced. I kind of pinpoint Elfangor's departure date from Earth as basically around Tobias' conception: the series started in what, '96? And it started when they were all 13? So Tobias was conceived some time in '82 or '83? I may be pulling this out of my ass, but even if Elfangor didn't go home directly after the Ellimist pulled him off of Earth, he certainly had enough time to meet a pretty girl, marry her, and pop out a couple of kids.

But then again, it's all pretty vague. I was actually surprised they gave us dates in the HBC, I thought she was keeping the timeline intentionally vague because timelines are really hard to pin down.
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2009, 09:12:20 PM »
HBC happened in the 60's. Elfangor says in TAC that five years have passed since the war began. Somewhere in TAC it also says he spent twenty years on Earth. Vietnam happening in 75 kind of jabs a hole in my timeline. But that's the idea I take from TAC, with something from HBC thrown in as a starting point.


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Offline anijen21

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2009, 09:28:02 PM »
HBC happened in the 60's. Elfangor says in TAC that five years have passed since the war began. Somewhere in TAC it also says he spent twenty years on Earth. Vietnam happening in 75 kind of jabs a hole in my timeline. But that's the idea I take from TAC, with something from HBC thrown in as a starting point.

I hate to be annoying, but could you find quotes for those? The five-year thing sounds plausible, and now that I think about it, whether or not Vietnam was over or not was sort of ambiguous, so that could definitely fit in the timeline. But from what I remember, Elfangor never gives a time period for how long he stayed on Earth, and if he did, I really don't think it was twenty years. He never knew Tobias as his son, the Ellimist came when Loren was away at the doctor, finding out she was pregnant or whatever. I don't think it's possible that he spent twenty years on Earth. He would have had to know Tobias, and he didn't. I think he got taken away a lot earlier than that.
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Offline Chad32

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2009, 09:36:50 PM »
I'm sure the quotes were within the first few pages, and the last few. It's late for me, so I don't feel like it. Go read the ebook. Or wait until tomorrow.


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Offline anijen21

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2009, 10:39:10 PM »
I'm sure the quotes were within the first few pages, and the last few. It's late for me, so I don't feel like it. Go read the ebook. Or wait until tomorrow.

lol curse you and curse my insatiable curiosity! I should be doing work but h/o I will look.

First we need to find out when the war actually started. This happened in the Hork-Bajir Chronicles. Okay. Alloran reamed Seerow out for giving the Yeerks technology in 1966. Was that the beginning of the war? Or did the war technically start with the battle for Hork-Bajir, which didn't begin until sometime in the midst of the Hork-Bajir Chronicles? Aldrea and her family went to the Hork-Bajir homeworld in 1968. For the benefit of this whole charade, let's find the latest possible start date for the war. I'm going to try to find out how long they spent there until the Yeerks attacked.

Okay, here's one bit: "I notice that you are not making regular data entries. You did for the first three months. Then you stopped." (THBC, p. 33) 1968 and three months, give or take, I don't know, a month for him to confront her about it.

This seems important: "I was there. Do you understand what this moment was? I was there when Akdor announced the birth of the Yeerk Empire." (THBC, p. 53) This is an Esplin chapter and is no longer related to the other storyline, but we can assume it's sometime around at least 3 months into 1968.

"It was seven weeks since Aldrea had become a chadoo for the first time." (THBC, p. 55) So Aldrea's been on THB homeworld for four months and three weeks. They see Gedds later in the chapter. The Yeerks have begun the infestation of the Hork-Bajir people.

This doesn't matter. I think it's fair to say the beginning of the war is when the Andalites arrive on THB homeworld. Let's see when that is.

"At the very best, the fleet would take about two months to arrive." (THBC, p. 109)

It took two days for them to learn how to control the monsters from the Arn...I don't know if this is relevant but I'll write it down anyway.

Aldrea contacts the Andalites at the end of that battle...

HERE WE GO

"Seven months passed, and the fleet did not come. Not the two months I had expected." (THBC, p. 148)

"Space battle...There's a space battle going on in orbit!" (THBC, p. 153)

Four months, three weeks, two days, and seven more moths. That's almost exactly a year from Aldrea landing on the Hork-Bajir Homeworld with her parents in 1968 until the Andalite forces landed on the planet to fight the Yeerks. So unless the Andalites have some heavily-censored media and are orchestrating an Earth Kingdom-level conspiracy about keeping the war from the civilian public (which would be fair to argue, based on how the Andalite military is characterized, but we'd need to find textual evidence to support it), I think it's fair to say the Andalite-Yeerk War started in 1969. Which, unrelatedly, would be an appropriate year since that's when we landed on the moon.

Anyway, let's relate this back to The Andalite Chronicles.

"This is not my first visit to Earth. I spent many years on Earth...and yet, no time at all." (TAC, prologue, viii)
Vague, but a good place to start.

"For five years our princes had fought the vissers of the Yeerk Empire. They said the war could go on for another fifty years...another hundred years."
So, if the war started in 1969 like we've said, then Elfangor's story starts in 1974.

How long does the Andalite Chronicles take? I'm skipping the meat now: Taxxon homeworld and Sub-Visser whatever infesting Alloran and living asteroids and Mortrons blah blah blah.

"That was like, what, a week ago? Did all this happen in just a week?" (TAC, p. 298)

Elfangor's adventure happens in 1974. It takes a week. Then he decides to run away with her to Earth. How long does he spend on Earth?

The first three words in chapter 45 are Three years later (TAC, p. 300) Then we get a recap of what Elfangor did during this time--become human, attend college + grad school, get a job ("I had a job writing software for primitive human computers. It was the 1980s on Earth and humans were just beginning to understand computers." [TAC, p. 301])

According to Elfangor's testimony, the war has been five years long, he spent three years on Earth with Loren, and it's the 1980s.

Except, no. 1969+5 years: 1974+3 years: 1977. The Ellimist comes and whisks him back to his home, according to all the textual evidence we have found, in 1977.

This already contradicts something Elfangor said. It's not the 80's. And if all of this were correct, Tobias would have been conceived in 1977, which would make him 18 or 19 years old when Elfangor's fighter crashes.

Of course all of this can be handwaved, because we're not explicitly told how the Ellimist changed stuff. We don't even know when the Ellimist delivered him to. We get this: "The lost aristh who had returned mysteriously, years after disappearing, and had flown his fighter in a bold suicide mission." (TAC, 320)

HOW MANY YEARS APPLEGATE, HOW MANY YEARS?

The only other indication of time we get is here: "It was many years before I saw Earth again. I had fought in more battles than I could count. I had won, and I had lost." (TAC, p. 323)

So...there you have it. Let me try to recap: Andalite-Yeerk war starts in 1969 when the Andalites arrive on the Hork-Bajir homeworld. Could be later, depending on when the government decided to actually inform the public there was a high-stakes intra-galactic war going on. Elfangor's adventure takes place in 1974, according to THBC timeline. He spends three years on earth, making it 1977 when he leaves, when we know Loren is pregnant with Tobias. At no point is it the 1980s like he says. Again, this whole post may be moot depending on when the Andalite government *decided* the war starts, but inter-textually it seems impossible for them to say it started any time after 1969.

I admit I kind of forgot what I was arguing...I mean, I guess that Elfangor went back to the Andalite people no later than 1977, depending, once again, on whether the start date of the war is actually 1969. It's the only textual evidence I could find and what I'm going to stick to. So yes. I believe that between 1977 and 1996, Elfangor could have definitely married and had kids.

I have to stop nerding out about Animorphs and do some goddamn work now.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 11:27:10 PM by anijen21 »
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Offline Shark Akhrrana

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Re: Errors In Animorphs series
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2009, 11:29:02 PM »
HOLY HYLIA MAN that is amazing. I will have to do some research myself.  but like you i have a paper to do  So i'll do the research latter.

I love making timelines. I think i had one ages ago lost it and forgot all the calculations i made way back when but i'll still help you build that amazing timeline. I mean i'm still working on that Legend of Zelda timeline too XD

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