Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Darth Zakryn on December 16, 2011, 02:36:48 PM
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Ok, I know he didn't kill Karen, but he was going to if Cassie hadn't stopped him. Let's discuss it. This was the moment that ruined Marco for me forever. She's a child, a little girl, and who decides that death is better than being a slave? With adults, it might be more understandable, but she's still a child. Killing children is wrong, especially one that's helpless like Karen. She was about to die for something she had no control over, and it would have been the first human death on their hands. If Marco had gone through with it, it would have been his own Moral Event Horizon. People forget he was going to kill Karen because she lived, but there's no mistake; she WOULD have been dead if it wasn't for Cassie. And there was the fact that he could tried to starve the Yeerk out of her, anything so long as he didn't try to kill her. In my opinion, that should have been saved as a last resort, yet he seemed too eager to try to do it, and couldn't understand afterwards why Cassie wouldn't let him go through with it.
Well, thoughts?
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It was hard and cold, but frankly she should have died soon after they left her to her own devices. The Yeerks normally operate like that, if they weren't going to reinfest her. I suppose there's a chance they might have been able to get Karen out of the wood, but where would they take her? She wouldn't want to live with the Hork-Bajir. That would be nightmarish, most likely. Erek's place? Maybe, but aside from marco taking his dad there they seemed to be against it.
Plus there's the whole free or dead thing. That's what that phrase means. Why would being a child slave be any better than an adult?
It's not a pretty thought, but he was thinking of the big picture.
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I think the whole Karen situation in the book was one of the most nightmarish situations in the series, along with the David situation because there was, realistically, NO good solution. It was either do something wrong or do something wrong.
I personally believe Karen being fine and dandy after she was released wasn't really realistic given how the Yeerks operate. (But hey, its cassie, she's magically lucky, lol.) Killing a child is wrong, but I agree with Marco's reasoning, they had no other safe choice. If she ever got infested again, they were screwed, and they were the only thing saving earth. Its one life vs. 6 billion.
I also don't think hiding her was a realistic option. She was a little kid, she probably would have tried to escape to mom and dad.
I give Marco kudos for having the balls to think about the human race...its definitely something I wouldn't have been able to do. And while I think KA copped out with Cassies magical pixie dust of morality, I give kudos to her for portraying morality as it is in the real world: gray and gray, not black and white.
Ironically, Cassie was my second favorite character until this book. She came off as extremely selfish and holier-than-thou to me. Its like the others were willing to sacrifice their lives, sanity, and souls to save the human race. All Cassie ever cared about was forcing her morality on others and making sure her mental world was filled with unicorns and happy.
edit: I have no idea why that weird smiley was in there...lol.
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I absolutely agree with Noelle_Winters. What Marco wanted to do was really hard, killing a child is one of the worst things you can do, but what choices did they have? If Aftran would have gone back to the Yirks without joining the peace movement they would be dead. And hiding her? How would you hide a little girl? The only options would be the Chees or the Hork Bajir valley. The Chees couldn't hold her if she wants to run away and leaving a little girl with the Hork Bajirs? Well, I don't think you can leave her alone with them, how can they watch out for her?
Like I said, killing a little child is one of the worst things someone can do, but they wanted to save the hole world, they could not do anything that might give them away. There was to much that depended on the animorphs. And in a war sometimes you have to make sacrifices, like Tom said: Wars aren't won with clean hands. As sad as it is, it's true.
There would have been no good choice if Aftran didn't join the peace movement.
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I don't think that he didn't understand why Cassie was conflicted... But yes, Marco was a ruthless character, and it was a ruthless decision that he felt had to be made. Karen being left alive compromised their security, and starving Aftran wasn't really an option. Like Chad said, what would they do afterwards? There were controllers looking for her, they would have noticed a significant difference in uninfested Karen (not to mention knowing that Aftran would have starved by then), prompting them to reinfest her, and reveal what she knew about Cassie.
They potentially could have tried to keep Karen alive. They had the option, I guess, of bringing her to the Hork-Bajir valley, or more likely the Chee park, where she would have had to remain for the rest of the war, unable to even contact her parents to tell them she's alive due to the security risks.
And yeah, it would have been life, and would have been more freedom than being infested with a Yeerk. But it's an option that might not have crossed Marco's mind during the high-stress situation.
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And yeah, it would have been life, and would have been more freedom than being infested with a Yeerk. But it's an option that might not have crossed Marco's mind during the high-stress situation.
It's not an option that's crossed my mind as an observer of the event multiple times with more than a decade to contemplate it :P
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Even if they managed to starve the yeerk out of her, it would have been almost impossible to contain her. She wouldn't have been able to stay in the Chee park, she was a little kid and she would have wanted to go home. They wouldn't have been able to stop her. And I don't know how a little kid could survive with the Hork'Bajir, they wouldn't know how to care for her, and she'd run away. The Animorphs would have to spend a ton of time taking care of her, and she'd probably die anyway. What would they do if she got sick or hurt? They couldn't take her to the hospital, Cassie's expertise and supplies would only get her so far.
For that matter, I kind of consider Karen being okay sort of a plot hole. If she were just some joe-shmoe no-one that happened to be a warm body, that would make sense. The yeerk peace movement could have gotten the yeerk from her, told her to be quiet, then carried Aftran back to the Yeerk pool, or carried Aftran in a willing host while the a Yeerk waited back at home.
But Karen was infested for a reason. She was watching someone, she was supposed to spy on someone, her father. The Yeerks would have noticed that lack of information. (Was that why Aftran was put on the spot in 29? I don't remember.) Either way, Karen was a dead girl walking, at least Marco would have merciful about killing her instead of her either going through being infested again (and giving away the animorphs) or her being assassinated by the Yeerks (which I don't think they would have done.)
Heck, they didn't even need to do the blood bank thing, all they had to do was reinfest Karen.
Honestly, when I first read it, it occurred to me that Karen was re-infested by another Yeerk of the peace movement, and she just lied and told Cassie she was free. It could close the plot hole.
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I like to think that Karen "played along" when she was around other controllers for a while, and then found a way to convince her parents to move away.
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I still think killing Karen would have made Marco irredeemable, and that he would have and should have been tried for murder after the war was over, especially by the distraught father. If he wants to kill her to preserve the human race, fine, but he really shouldn't get away with it if he had. I would have done the same thing Cassie did. It's perhaps the darkest thing he wanted to do and why I hated his happy fairy-tale ending after the war so much, which shows what a jerkass he is along with Cassie, the only other survivor. Then again, he possibly got blown up in the end, so it may be a fair trade-off. How many of us here have younger sisters or younger female family members and thought killing Karen would have been the same? How many of us would have thought, "Go ahead, kill my cousin/sister because it's justified?" I always thought of my favorite cousin, who I saw as a younger sister in everything but name.
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I dunno about ruining Marco. He seems to me like the only person capable of thinkin clearly (other than when his mom's involved). He and the animorphs always said rather be dead than to be a controller, and not only because it would give away their identities. Maybe he just didn't want to condemn a child to a life of slavery.
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That seems kind of backwards. "Thanks for saving the human race. We're gonna jail you now for doing it." :huh: I wouldn't bite the hand that saved the human race.
If it was my sister, of course I'd be angry, but I'd be more angry at the Yeerks for making it necessary (and being crass enough to infest a child). Keep in mind, the only thing different between Karen and everyone other controller (including Taxxon's and Hork'Bajir) is age, and age is nothing but a number in this case. Everyone that became a controller was a sister or mother or the child of someone. If they vowed to never kill an innocent in the war the war would have been over before it even began.
War's an ugly thing. People have to do bad things in them. Marco had the balls to do it, Cassie didn't. *shrug* Morality is never black and white, and you can't treat it like it is.
And keep in mind, at the end of the book ALL of the Animorphs were willing to kill Karen, except I think Tobias.
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Yeah, but I still would have sued had it been MY younger cousin, and I think my whole family would have. Like Visser One said, humans need things to blame on, and Marco would have been the one to take the blame, even if the Yeerks were the ones to force their hand. It was revealed in that book that she didn't want to die, and if he had killed her, no matter how justified it was, it would have been murder. The more interesting question is if, had Marco killed her, would he have been tried if the girl's father pressed charges after the war? Or would the Animorphs not have revealed it at all?
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I think if the father tried the case would have been thrown out of the court. And the court would have been right to, Marco had no choice. Nothing good comes from suing the wrong people.
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All I can say is if it had been my cousin and he didn't get put in jail, I would have hunted him down and killed him myself. Whether he was justified or not, he would have performed the actual act, no matter how guilty he might feel afterward.
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I guess.... :huh: But I think most people would see suing Marco as soothing the pain. Humans ARE irrational creatures.
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Would you seriously say the live of one single person is more important then the whole human race? You must consider what depended on their choices. If they would have starved the Yirk out and kept Karen by the Chees or the Hork Bajirs and she would have escaped the Yirks would have found her and they would have re-infested her. And then would have found the animorphs and that would have been the end. No more war, because the Yirks would have won.
Of course it's horrible if it's someone you're related to, but it is like Noelle_Winters said: A war is horrible and sometime you have to do things that are horrible. If there would be any solution that makes sure the Controller would never find her, than (of course) I'd say they have to do that and let her live, but there is no solution that makes that sure so I can really understand Marco.
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I hate the human race, you should know that. I hate it vehemently. I like and even love individuals among the collective, but as a whole, I hate the human race and wonder if it would be for the best if it was wiped out, so you're kind of asking the wrong person.
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I think this conversation is just going to go around in circles. marco is one of my favorite characters, and even if Karen was my sister the only way I'd be upset abou it is if the Animorphs wound up losing anyway. The problem with this is because she was such a small child. Wasn't she like 5 or something? If she was older, it would have been more reasonable not to kill her. I suppose that's ironic. It's so bad because she's so young, yet that's the only sure option because she's so young.
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If you look at his thought process in book 30, I think you'd get a good idea of what his thought process was in book 19. He gives a pretty good description about how he thinks in these types of situations.
People don't understand the word ruthless. They think it means "mean". It's not about being mean. It's about seeing the bright, clear line that leads from A to B. The line that goes from motive to means. Beginning to end.
It's about seeing that bright, clear line and not caring about anything but the beautiful fact that you can see the solution. Not caring about anything else but the perfection of it.
That's what had happened. I saw the way to take both Vissers down. And that's all that mattered.
But I wasn't going to explain all that. Other people's pity makes you think things you can't think about when you are seeing the line.
So basically, Marco forces himself to become emotionally detached so that he can think rationally. And rationally, killing Karen was the only way out that he saw. It's not pretty, and Marco himself knows it. But it's consistent with his character.
A little later in the same book:
Someday, if we won, if humanity survived, we'd be in history books. Me and Jake and Rachel and Cassie and Tobias and Ax. They'd be household names, like generals from World War II or the Civil War. Patton and Eisenhower, Ulysses Grant and Robert E. Lee.
Kids would study us in school. Bored, probably.
And then the teacher would tell the story of Marco. I'd be a part of history. What I was about to do.
Some kid would laugh. Some kid would say, "Cold, man. That was really cold."
I had to do it, kid. It was a war. It's the whole point, you stupid, smug, smirking little jerk! Don't you get it?
It was the whole point. We hurt the innocent in order to stop the evil.
Innocent Hork-Bajir. Innocent Taxxons. Innocent human-Controllers.
How else to stop the Yeerks? How else to win?
No choice, you punk. We did what we had to do.
"Cold, man. The Marco dude? He was just cold."
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Maybe you should hunt down the Yeerk. Remember that if he had let Karen live, that would pretty much be the end of the war. If she had gotten to any other controller Marco, his dad and pretty much anyone who was ever connected with the Animorphs would die. So it was pretty much the girl vs. the entire human race.
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There are some things that just CAN'T be justified. Killing children, especially that young, is one of them.
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Sure it can be justified. Just about anything can be justified if the alternative is bad enough. You think a child's life is worth more than seven billion people? I don't. A child that young couldn't be kept away from her family by people programmed against hurting someone, and she couldn't be kept with the Hork-Bajir. Obviously the Anis couldn't keep her with them. We know how that worked out with David.
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Don't you guys get it? They could have easily grabbed her, taken her someplace abandoned, starved the Yeerk out, and then either sent her to live with the Hork-Bajir or the Chee until a resolution to the war came about! Sure, it's a little risky, but wouldn't you say that's ultimately better than killing a helpless girl?
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You're not even listening to me. You would subject a small child to living in the woods with big monster looking things? The Chee would be reasonable, but I just doubt she'd stay put without someone watching her all the time, and I doubt she's old enough to understand she can't see her family and friends again. The Chee can't force her to stay, so it's still a big risk. It's a lot risky. That's even if they can get her out without anyone tracking them and hope the Yeerks don't get suspicious about it.
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Yes, I would, because as Arbron said, almost kind of life is better than dying. And Karen seemed pretty reasonable in the book. Hell, there's no reason they can't even send her family into hiding! It would be the humane thing to do. And it may be a huge risk, but it's still better than killing a helpless girl who hadn't done anything wrong and just desperately wanted to live. If that had been YOU, would you still think the same thing?
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I can't say that I really would or not. I haven't been enslaved, and obviously the fate of humanity has never hung in the balance because of what I know. I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, because I have run out of things to say. It would have been dark, but it wouldn't have been a MEH for me.
I know this is off topic, but do you think it's funny that the acronym for moral event horizon is the word meh, which means something that isn't a big deal, or along those lines?
"How was the show?"
"Meh."
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The animorphs carry the incredible disadvantage of being a six man army vs an empire, with limited support from the Chee and Hork-Bajir.
The yeerks are looking for Karen.
Even after three days, her rich parents will still be looking.
Taking a bank head into heading: A whole bunch of people will still be looking
Taking either her or a whole family into hiding, with the end of the war no where in sight? They could barely restrain their own parents when the time for that came.
It's sad, but they can't afford to save and support every isolated controller.
It's not like Marco's "thinking grr, I want to kill children" but this is the equvialent of a live gernade being thrown at him.
If anyone would have figured to have her freed and taken care of, it would have been him-but Marco's plans need time and in that situation, just relocating a defective Animorph while the Yeerks patrol the woods, and an angry leopard is in waiting, and finding out your enemy and a witness knows a secert you can't have any witnesses knowing, it's totally unreasonalbe to expect him to think of all that when the simpler solution is kill the Yeerk, kill the witness
They are at war.
They did, and tried a lot of things that were sad, and arguably wrong. But they had to look for the best of immediate situations to perserve their efforts, not the fate of unfornuate individuals caught in the cross fire.
Everyone has to set aside personal feelings at one time or another. This was just one of those
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Killing children is one of the ultimate evils, and should be avoided at all costs. Hell, maybe if the Yeerks were looking for Karen, it could distract them, like Zone 91 and the like. I'm sorry, but Marco and the others didn't want to even try, and killing of that cold-blooded and ruthless nature should only be undertaken unless absolutely necessary. Like I said, Karen seemed like a reasonable girl, and after her time infested, I'm really sure she would've understood that she couldn't go out. The Chee have an underground park, food, toilet, bath, everything someone needs. And hell, if she got lonely, they could even take her to see her father under a hologram! She was shown to be smart, and like I said, reasonable, so I'm sure she wouldn't burst out. Cassie was the only one who understood this, in her own clumsy, moralistic way, but at least she got it! What if that had been YOUR children, hm?
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Like I said, Karen seemed like a reasonable girl, and after her time infested, I'm really sure she would've understood that she couldn't go out. The Chee have an underground park, food, toilet, bath, everything someone needs. And hell, if she got lonely, they could even take her to see her father under a hologram! She was shown to be smart, and like I said, reasonable
She may be reasonable fpr her age, but she was only a little girl. You have to think about that fact. A little girl left alone with an android race? Even if she was reasonable for her age that isn't anything a little girl can stand for a long time. If they would know that the war would be over in a foreseeable future okay. She could stay with them for a short time maybe without trying to escape. But for year? No little girl, how reasonable it might be, could stand this situation for a few years.
And the Hork Bajir Valley isn't really an option.
There would always be a risk that she would escape and the yirks would get her an re-infest her. Than they would know about the animorphs, they could find them and that's it...war's over.
Would you really consider that the live of one person is worth more than the live of 7 billion persons?
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Weather or not it's my child, or me even, I'm not going to say "Animorphs it's cool, let's go get a drink", but niether will it be "you deliberately wronged me, I'll murder you!"
Understanding action and sacrifice doesn't have to sway you to either extreme. Be sad at the loss. But nothing you do can undo it.
It's a war. People die. Soilders die, innocents die.
This series is practically written to emphasis collateral damage as one of the ultimate horrors of war.
If you can't accept that it seems your either saying 1)if fighting an aggressor may inflict collateral damage you can't fight or 2) You can if their is such damage and you are entitled to revenge: but that's a cycle that never ends-and thus is pointless
As for reasonable for her age: Reasonable has little to do with what people do under prolonged, high stress situations- seperating a child from her entire life, it's unreasonable to expect that to be a stable solution, and like I said, the Animorphs don't have the power to run around and deal with any more unstable situations then they already have
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So you'd take the easy way out? You know, this is what's so wrong with the world! People don't want to show each other even the slightest bit of compassion. I'll reiterate: What if that had been your relative, and they could have saved her life, but didn't do so? They had the chance; they just didn't want to take it. And you're all forgetting one obvious thing: They could have made her an Animorph once they got the blue box back!
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It isn't about taking the easiest way. It is about to choose between bad or worse. It is about trying to save the world in their case. And it has also nothing to do with compassion. Of course it is sad and of course would feel pity for her but as I said, they couldn't take any risk. They could not risk to loose everything!
And about the blue box: Well, even if they could make her an animorph (Would you really make a little girl fighting in a war? That is heartless!), how would they know that they would receive the blue box back. They thought the box has been destroyed.
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Easy way out? There is no easy way out. Explain, how the f is that an easy out
I reiterate: no matter how personal, how close that person is to you, what can you do to Marco to undo it? What do you say to Marco's mom when you've got him put away for taking someone from you, when what he did is on behalf of so many others. Why can't she then put you away for taking her son from her.
And you are IGNORING what everyone has said repeatedly.
Most people can't think of something like that under such tense situations.
It's impratical, illogical, and why every solider doesn't goes straight to prison after service. There's always alternatives.
There is not always a way to find them
And you'd make a what, ten year old an Animorph? You'd ask her to go kill and likely be killed?
That's nightmarish.
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This isn't your usual wartime situation. It's not a shooting war or a war of ideologies; it's a war to change our way of life, and as such, it's going to be completely different than the ones we fight.
I view all of the killing the Animorphs did, against the Hork-Bajir and the Taxxons, to be murder, since they're killing helpless innocents, but there's a bit of reason and understanding to it; they're all adults, and I don't care what anyone says about Hork-Bajir, they still have forms of maturity. I don't view the Hork-Bajir as childlike, but simple, so let's get that out of the way. Plus those Controllers were attacking them, so it became a case of self-defense of the "in the heat of the moment" type.
Now, let's take a look at Karen/Aftran. She's a little girl, armed, alone and defenseless, and her host doesn't want to die, and there's a chance her life could be spared, even if only temporarily. Who wouldn't want to take that chance? Really? It's risky to do so, but there are times when you've got to think about other people. Killing children is wrong and it should only be committed unless absolutely necessary. Is it necessary to kill Karen? Like I say, they could take her to the Chee or the Hork-Bajir and she could live there, they might even be able to shelter her whole family if they went with the Hork-Bajir. Plus she's not fighting back, which makes it even more ruthless and all the more evil.
It's not the fact that they wanted to kill her that bothered me; it's the fact that they didn't even consider any other option! Even if they just considered it! Are you honestly trying to say that roughing it in the woods or living underground with mechanical dogs is worse than death?
Like I keep saying, that could have been your relative. How would any of you feel if they killed that relative, a helpless young child, practically a baby, without at least trying to save her life? How do you not try? I'm sorry, but I have these little things called "feelings," and I'd rather die than betray them.
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Okay, one last time I try to explain you what I think about that:
Are you honestly trying to say that roughing it in the woods or living underground with mechanical dogs is worse than death?
She could stay with them, but, as I mentioned before, the problem is, that the chees couldn't hold her from running away and searching for her parents. It IS risky, if she would ran away the yirks WOULD find her. And like I said, that would be the end of the war, they could not take the risk and the only other possibility would be the Hork Bajirs, and honestly: How can you leave a little girl with aliens that look like monsters. She would probably ran away and we would be at the same problem as before.
Yeah it would be hard if it would be one of my relatives, but if I would know what depended on the decision, I think I would understand it.
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Karen doesn't strike me as the type to rush out and look for her parents, especially after all she's been through. She might ask the Chee to look after him, but I don't think she'd risk getting reinfested. Really.
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Well this is going to be my point of disagreement.
I've said repeatedly, regardless of who it is, no matter how sad it is, with any real empathy you have to understand that an adolscent at war is not going to pause to maintain the security of his unit. You want him to, but realistically it's out and out ridiculous to expect him to. I've said all I can say as to why that moment was not a low pressure "lets assess" situation.
Marco didn't know Karen, Marco had not been talking to Aftran. Marco only saw that his teammate had put them in danger, and for him this was sure.
Marco is not a character of risk, and for as important a job he has, he shouldn't be.
You keep saying something is wrong because it's wrong. How a child's life is inherently more precious than adult is is solely a matter of opinion. No matter who was there, it's not unreasonable for Marco not to look past the Yeerk to the Host.
I don't think it's much to assume we have the luxuary of Western suburbia, with nothing more riding on us than the happiness of ourselves and those closest to us.
Marco was thinking of others. He was thinking of his friends and the entire planet that depended on them.
And it's not a personal shot, but lots of people say what the would rather die than do. Honestly, I'd love to see what would really happen if that was put to the test. It's an unlucky few that really have the opportunity to do so
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Wasn't she like 5-7 years old? And you would have her become an Animorph? That's it. You're just not making sense. Plus about Hork-Bajir. You don't know they were all adults. Horks reach the size of an adult after about a year. Who knows how many children there are.
Just the thought of making a small child a soldier in the war when you demonize Marco for being willing to commit mercy killing is just wrong. Not that a bunch of 13 year olds should be fighting the war, but Karen was considerably younger than even them.
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The point is to try and save someone first, and kill them until necessary. Hell, if they wanted to keep her safe in the Chee park, they could have hired some Hork-Bajir for protection, and to keep her from running away. Seriously, that's a lot better than just killing her outright. For God's sake, people need to start using their heads! Not you guys, people in general, I mean. And you never answer my questions: How would you feel if that was your relative? Noelle has already said she could forgive the killer, but I couldn't do that.
There's a time for cold, ruthless, remorseless logic, and a time for reckless, hopeless, passionate emotion, or you could combine the two. That's what I'm trying to do. Seriously, if it had been ME in that situation, I would have tried to think of any way to save the host child, no matter how unpleasant, without killing her but also saving the world. Marco didn't even consider it, which shows what a despicable person he is. Depriving a child of all of the joys of life is just plain evil. To quote Dustin Hoffman: "It's murder, any way you wanna ****ing slice it!"
But I can see the people on this board are quite ruthless. I hope your families know you'd sell them out in a heartbeat to protect the human race. ::)
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For God's sake, people need to start using their heads! Not you guys, people in general, I mean. And you never answer my questions: How would you feel if that was your relative? Noelle has already said she could forgive the killer, but I couldn't do that.
I used my head. The thing is you don't want to understand us. You want us to think about what you thinks it's right or wrong, but you don't even try to understand us.
As I said, like Noelle I think if I knew the circumstances I could understand it and forgive them for killing a person I know. Of course I would be sad, but I would try to understand why they did it.
The decision Marco wanted to make is hard and may be ruthless, but it's not like he wanted to do it. He didn't saw an alternative. He thought about what possibilities they had and he saw that there was always a risk, and that is why he wanted to do it.
But I can see the people on this board are quite ruthless. I hope your families know you'd sell them out in a heartbeat to protect the human race. ::)
If you think we are ruthless if we would 'sell our families to protect the human race' I don't understand you.
You say you would rather rather sell out the whole planet just to save one person? Sorry, but THIS is ruthless.
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Tell that to your loved one who has been deprived of all of the wonderful things of life.
What makes humanity different than all of the animals? Compassion. And if someone isn't going to exercise it when it really matters, to prevent the helpless murder of unarmed child who has committed no wrong and isn't fighting back, then when will we use it? Marco could have used compassion, but compassion with logic.
The fact that you really can't understand where I'm coming from frightens me. This is why I hate humans so much.
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And you never answer my questions: How would you feel if that was your relative? Noelle has already said she could forgive the killer, but I couldn't do that
To be blunt: It's someone I care about, I'm saddened. No, I don't forgive, but that doesn't mean I try to kill him or lock him up.
I live with it, because I understand that for him, that situation, it was the best course of action that kept a LOT more people save
The same way millions of people all over the world live day by day with their grief when someone wrongs them.
Not forgiving is not the same as vengening.
But I can see the people on this board are quite ruthless. I hope your families know you'd sell them out in a heartbeat to protect the human race. ::)
....Okay so I know I don't want you fighting on behalf of the human race.
Don't act like people would be indifferent to that decision; it's a huge loss, but people do it and live with it.
That's nice you want to protect one person, but if you are unwilling to sacrifice one life and your feeling for the ENTIRE world take 'em and go hide and the woods and stay there when the fighting starts.
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Can't you see where I'm coming from? Can't you see how I feel about this? Really, there was a way out. You just don't want to even consider it could be a good solution. You want to protect the human race, fine, but at what cost? Any cost? If we lose what makes us human in the first place, is there any point in fighting anymore?
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I totally see where you're coming from, I can understand how you feel; I still disagree with you.
Because I don't understand your refusal to allow someone else a different course of action: a sacrifice.
I AM SAYING again, and again, that in that situation, it would have been bad practice to do what you're asking. Those solutions where not accessible AT THAT MOMENT in THAT SITUATION, so there is no reason he should have been have been obligated to seek an alternative to what he would have done.
He doesn't have the luxuary of infinite solutions and backup and time he has to deal with a situation in the moment, not a bunch of potential ones
As Cassie once said "Deal with what is. Not with what should be"
Any cost? No.
One life? Yes. Unfornuate, you don't it lightly, but if that's the choice a million times yes
A dozen? A town? A State? If need
The ONLY six creatures on the planet fighting to protect it? No.
That's what you're weighing against, the protection of countless vs one.
If you are totally unwilling to sacrifice anything you shouldn't be in a fight. You have to know that you can give things up-even if you don't like it.
This book is all about that, Cassies hits her boiling point and has to get out.
This series, wouldn't work, because real life doesn't work, if everyone could always point out and grab the best answer
Does taking one life mean forever humanity is lost? That a person can never redeem himself for one error?
That seems to be rather extreme.
Your views on what makes a person good seem pretty inflexible.
But everyone draws there own lines
This wasn't a fight about saving human ethics, it was a fight about saving humans: keeping them from becoming livestock.
If the cost to do that is a handful of lives, you pay it, you lament it, and you do what you have to do.
The Animorphs as characters are interesting because everyone has a different line, but for none of them (and very few real people) is it all or nothing.
If Elfangor landed in front of 5 kids who never would flex theirs wills, never compromise they're values, they'd not have been good soliders.
And you can't compare the requirements a battle to the idealic desires of day to day living
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God, people supporting such unfair decisions makes me lose all faith in humanity...
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First, we don't know what she thinks of Hork-Bajir. Maybe they give her nightmares. Having one or two guard her wouldn't make her want to stay. Second, animals show plenty of compassion. There really isn't much that separates us from them, aside from intelligence level. That's another subject, though. This is why many people, including me, hate Cassie so much. Thought processes like this.
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Well, all I'm saying is Marco didn't even consider another option. If he wanted to try and kill her, fine, but he didn't want to try and even think of anything else because the cold-blooded bastard thinks death is better than being a Controller... I'd choose being a Controller. No, seriously. I so do not want to die. That is how much I fear death and how desperately I want to survive. Even starving in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
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We have no way of knowing whether or not Marco weighed all the other options. He was a master tactician. I would believe that he has already considered all other options and already found out killing her was the only way.
We saw it from Cassie's point of view, not Marco's. In all of Marco's books he THINKS about his plans and then says what hes doing. He doesn't sit there and make a huge speech about it. That's Cassie's forte.
And even IF he didn't think being dead is better than being a controller, why the heck would they leave her a controller? So she can go off and rat them out to Visser Three? Keep in mind he has NO knowledge of the Yeerk peace movement, Cassie didn't even really know much about it at that point.
I again stress, there was NO other option. Are you really going to trust the fate of the world to an herbivorous pacifist that can't even add one and one? Um...yeah...at that point you might as well just surrender to the Yeerks.
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You always say there was a way out of it and I/we don't want to see it, but that's not true. We just understand why Marco thought it was necessary to kill Karen. See:
He hadn't spoke with her, he didn't knew Aftran and that she may would enter the peace-movement. All he knew was that there was a little infested girl, and that aftran had been in Cassie's had. He knew, that Aftran knew everything about them and that the yirks would infest or kill them if they ever get to know who the andalite bandits are. So what options did the have? They had two:
1. Starving the yirk out
2. Kill Karen
If they would have starved the yirk out there would be the one big problem: What to do with Karen?
Hiding them with the Hork Bajirs or the chees?
The Hork Bajirs could not care for a child, they could not! What should Karen eat up there? Not to mention that that little girl would live with aliens that looked like monsters. So this wasn't really a possibility.
And the chees? I think I said often enough that they just could not hold her back if she wanted to run away. So if they chose this option there was always a risk.
The second option was killing her. It would have been a really cruel decision, but it would have been reasonable.They just could not risk anything, to much depended on them. They could not give up anything for just one human.
And lets think it through: If Karen would have escaped, the yirks would have found her, the animorphs would have been destroyed and the war was over, which means the every person on earth would be made a controller. Also Karen. So, would she had gained anything?
The fact that you really can't understand where I'm coming from frightens me. This is why I hate humans so much.
Even if you won't believe me: I actually CAN understand what you mean. It's not like I think "oh okay, kill her, that's okay". No, I don't think so, for me life is sacred, but I know that the reality is that sometimes you need to make sacrifices, if you want to or not.
Can't you see where I'm coming from? Can't you see how I feel about this? Really, there was a way out. You just don't want to even consider it could be a good solution. You want to protect the human race, fine, but at what cost? Any cost? If we lose what makes us human in the first place, is there any point in fighting anymore?
If there is a good solution then tell me which. But don't come with the Hork Bajirs or the Chees. I think I made it clear that I can't see a good solution in it.
And to You want to protect the human race, fine, but at what cost? Any cost? Well, you want to save one human but at what coast?...
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Ok. TIME OUT.
DZ's views should not be so easily dismissed just because they are resolute. It seems everyone is so focused on just telling him he's wrong, all other options ARE out of the window which is quite narrow minded.
1) Why can't the Chee hold a little girl?
2) Why do the Chee have to remain in their natural forms to "hold" the girl?
3) Is it a fact that that there is no other options?
1) They can contain a Yeerk against it's will so why not a little girl?
2) They can create a hologram 24/7 to give the girl a chance at a normal life. They've been around since the Egyptian times this is hardly a bigger drain on their batteries.
3) They could always ask the Chee what safe havens there are where the Yeerks haven't considered to relocate the girl with a loving family.
Point 2 seems to be the solution I would have chosen. I can't say that I've read the book recently. Actually without looking it up I can't even remember which one it is. The point I'm making is that there are always other options if you are willing to give the other side a chance. I'm just sorry it's taken me this long to pick up this topic to read. Apologies DZ.
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The reason the Chee wouldn't be able to do it is because they are physically incapable of keeping her from escaping. It is in violation of their code. She could escape at any time and pose a threat do the animorphs by being recaptured.
Is it ever stated they contain a Yeerk? I always thought they didn't, because if they did there would be NO way they could serve as spies. To hold it for three days and not return it to the pool would be violence. To hold it and then return it to the pool is to out themselves.
It doesn't really matter what the Chee can do, the point is they cannot safely contain her and keep her from being a threat.
And if they relocated her to another family, how could they ever hope that she would not say something about the Yeerks, and get outed anyway. She's a little kid, no one can hope for her to be put in an orphanage or relocate her to another family and have her be quiet.
And keep in mind, her father was a BILLIONAIRE. Do you think he'd let his little girl go missing quietly. Nope, the Yeerks would know something was up.
And that is what the other pages of this thread was about. What other options are there? If there are some post them, we've debunked the rest of them. This was nothing about being narrow-minded or attacking him. It was about the stark fact that there were NO other options.
So, if there are some, then we could probably be swayed. We aren't being narrow-minded, merely debating with the logical information we have about the series.
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I for one am not, questioning the Chee holding her. **
It could work.
So could sending her to live in a tribe in the Amazon.
Other options could have worked
My issue is trying to fault Marco for not coming up with other options on the spot, and saying his fail to do so would entitle the family to seek vengeance/justice
As I understand it, this topic started with
In my opinion, that should have been saved as a last resort, yet he seemed too eager to try to do it, and couldn't understand afterwards why Cassie wouldn't let him go through with it.
I disagree, and have yet to hear a case saying
1) why Marco should have had alternative ready, or be expected to spent any length of time preparing one on the spot considering the situation
2) and why killing the kid would have been inexcusable in that situation had he done it?
Answer these questions for me and I'd probably be made a bit more sympathetic- but until than I'm only hearing there were other choices & it's wrong because it's wrong.
**The Chee not being able to hold her thing is probably rooted where Erek says he couldn't restrain Ax in book 29 should the Andalite make an escape. This is ridiculous as Chee can (and do) sudue a grizzly bear, but because niether is ever addressed properly it's unclear if/which would be a violation of their programming, or is a KASU/Ghost writer error.
In book 10 Erek shows a Yeerk trapped in his head, and kept alive by the Chee through their technology, they put on holograms of it reentering the pool. But a Yeerk in a Chee is made a prisoner. Like bear wrestling, an argument that they can restrain someone
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It says in book 10, which introduced the Chee, that Erek has a Yeerk in his head and they can produce kandrona radiation to keep it alive. It's helpless, and since it can't hurt itsself, they can hold it. Unless they kept Karen restrained at all times, she could struggle and fight and hurt herself. This is why they can't stop her. They can't relocate her to a new family because her father would probably use his fortune to find her.
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Ok just looked it up. This was one of the most important books for the Animorphs so I was pretty sure I remembered that vital bit of detail
<How did you convince the Yeerks that you are one of them?> Ax asked him.
Erek turned off his hologram and became a machine once again. And then the front of his head
split open. Inside his steel and ivory head was a chamber, just a few inches in diameter. And inside that chamber was a gray slug,
helpless, unable to escape. Tiny wires, no thicker than hairs, wrapped around it.
<Yeerk!> Ax hissed.
"Yes," Erek said. "The Yeerks believe I am human. I accepted infestation. But of course the Yeerk cannot make a Controller of me. I made a
place for him instead. He sees nothing. Knows nothing. I tapped his memory, not the other way around. And now I can pass among the Yeerks like one of them."
I had two reactions. One, I was sick at the thought of that Yeerk, trapped inside a steel cage. As much as I hated Yeerks, it seemed harsh just the
same. But another reaction was much stronger. We had an ally! A powerful ally. An android who could pass as a Controller, who could enter Yeerk society. And an android with many powers of his own.
"How do you keep the Yeerk alive without Kandrona rays?" Cassie asked.
See, every three days a Yeerk has to return to the Yeerk pool to absorb Kandrona rays. Without that, they die.
"I am able to use my own internal power to generate Kandrona rays to keep this Yeerk alive," Erek explained. "When I go to the Yeerk
pool I am able to trick the Yeerks into believing that my Yeerk is swimming in the pool. I generate a hologram of a Yeerk leaving my ear
and dropping into the pool. Later, I create a hologram of it returning. The Yeerks never notice that they don't encounter this Yeerk actually
in the pool. Yeerks communicate very little in their natural states."
There are ALWAYS other options. Death should be very last choice when every other is exhausted. I can accept Marco may not have thought about this (in their situation) but someone could have.
The Chee have always been underused. In this case Chee holography is the key to giving her a semblance of reality. Mix in the idea that the Chee can get/make whatever they want (financially I'm sure they're not in trouble). There is a real chance at keeping the girl safe and give her some degree of normality. I forgot about her parents being rich but as I said, I haven't read the book recently and it really isn't too important.
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It says in book 10, which introduced the Chee, that Erek has a Yeerk in his head and they can produce kandrona radiation to keep it alive. It's helpless, and since it can't hurt itsself, they can hold it. Unless they kept Karen restrained at all times, she could struggle and fight and hurt herself. This is why they can't stop her. They can't relocate her to a new family because her father would probably use his fortune to find her.
I see, thanks for reminding me about that.
But I do agree, they would be unable to restrain her, and thus wouldn't be able to keep her there.
edit: I did not see RTYX's response, I had always assumed, due to 29, that they were unable to restrain. Did they restrain a grizzly bear? Which book was that? ( I don't doubt you, I just hate it when I forget a fact and I want to read it, lol.) Though, I do not believe that the imprisoned Yeerk is evidence that they can restrain. I think it's one of those short-circuit which-violent-option-do-i-choose-because-both-options-are-violent type of things, because if they released the Yeerk then it would cause voilence to the Chee, obviously the Chee would be programmed to avoid this.
But that just calls into question the whole Chee involvement...givin g information also causes violence...but I digress, for another thread.
If that is the case, then I suppose that they could restrain her and trap her
So I suppose they could have a Team of Chee dedicated to keeping her in a simulated, fake environment where she magically doesn't walk into walls when she "goes to school" or something like that. (Matrix? Anyone?)
But that just begs the question...what about the father? He would have not let his little girl go missing like that. I suppose the Chee could fake her death.
At that, I defer to RTYX. This is not an option Marco knew about. Marco and the other animorphs never even thought about the Chee impersonating already alive members (iirc, I could be wrong) until book 25. It never would have occurred to Marco. Therefore, he made the best choice with the information he had.
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Mr. King held Rachel in a full Nelson that she couldn't get out of when she burst into there house in book 10
bear.
"HhhhRRAAAAWWRRR!" Rachel roared in rage and frustration.
Frustration, see, because the Chee who passed as Erek's father had her in a full nelson. His human-holograph arms were wrapped around the unbelievably massive shoulders of the grizzly, and he was actually holding the great bear still.
He had pinned a grizzly so powerful it could literally turn a Toyota into an aluminum can.
"Okay, now I've seen everything," I said.
Quoted more than I need to but, that last line makes it funnier
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He also said if she didn't stop struggling, he'd have to let her go.
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No, he said
""Of course, my "father" here knew she was not atrue bear. And he only held onto her. He did not destroy her. If Rachel had been strong enough to win, my "father" would have had no choice but to allow himself to be destroyed. I laughed. "I see why you want to change that.""
That has nothing to do with the bear hurting itself in the struggle or having to release it: and either way, he stopped the bear from moving without hurting it
I'm sure he could pin down a little girl without issue, and being an andriod could hold on far longer than she could struggle
***Amending previous statement
In 29 Erek doesn't say he couldn't stop Ax.
Marco says it and Cassie agrees, and Jake later restates the notion. GW Screw up imo, but still an unresolved source of continuity error
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Ok. My mistake. Still, switching from one prison to another wouldn't be much better.
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And let me address the "Well, Marco should have been psychic and known that the chee could help" thing, because I know its coming.
That is like suing your doctor for malpractice because he is unable to cure your incurable disease. He doesn't know how to save you. He doesn't have the knowledge of the cure yet.
Does the cure exist. Well, of course it does, it has yet to be scientifically discovered, but it still exists (like the solution of having the Chee create a little fictitious world for her to live in.)
But it is stupid to sue the doctor, he has 0 knowledge that he can cure your disease. Just like Marco has 0 knowledge of how to save Karen. Thereby, he was still justified.
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Hmm, I don't know if this sounds crazy, but I don't think Marco would have done it. I have a feeling that Marco might not have had the guts to kill Karen even if they left her at his mercy. That would have been beastly. Necessary, but beastly. He might have changed his mind at the last minute. It happened other times in the series where the solution to saving the day involved taking a life but at the last minute they changed their minds and had to find a way around it. I'm not certain but it could have been the same in this case.
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This is the guy that tried to kill his other. Yes he would have killed Karen.
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*mother
I only correct because I read the post and went "brother? Since when did he have a brother?" *reread* "oh, mother."
I agree he would have done it. I believe he would have felt incredibly guilty for it (when he killed his mother he stayed in bed for seven days straight), but he would have done it.
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Well, you guys are right about him being capable of doing it. I guess I was just hoping that unless killing Karen was the very last option they had, despite Marco's ruthlessness he might just have come up with some other plan.
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Mr. King held Rachel in a full Nelson that she couldn't get out of when she burst into there house in book 10
bear.
"HhhhRRAAAAWWRRR!" Rachel roared in rage and frustration.
Frustration, see, because the Chee who passed as Erek's father had her in a full nelson. His human-holograph arms were wrapped around the unbelievably massive shoulders of the grizzly, and he was actually holding the great bear still.
He had pinned a grizzly so powerful it could literally turn a Toyota into an aluminum can.
"Okay, now I've seen everything," I said.
Quoted more than I need to but, that last line makes it funnier
Yes he could hold her because if he would not hold her it would lead to more violence than if he hold her back.
But if Karen wanted to escape she would not do anything violent, so it would be more violent to held her back. As someone already said, she could hurt herself if they hold her.
I always thought that's why he could hold Rachel back and he couldn't hold Karen. Because in the first case it would be against violence and in the second not.
In #29 Marco says the Erek could not hold Ax:
Marco didn't bother with a comeback. "If Ax goes into delirious mode, he
could go running into town with underpants on his head or something.
Erek won't be able to stop him."
He was right. The Chee aren't programmed for violence. Any kind of violence.
So the question is: Is holding a little girl that wants to go to her parent violent? I would guess so, but I am not sure.
But as I said above, she could hurt herself, and than they could hold her anymore. So I really think the Chees wouldn't work...
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Some keys on my keyboard don't work properly all the time. Including the letter M.
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Yes he could hold her because if he would not hold her it would lead to more violence than if he hold her back.
But if Karen wanted to escape she would not do anything violent, so it would be more violent to held her back. As someone already said, she could hurt herself if they hold her.
I always thought that's why he could hold Rachel back and he couldn't hold Karen. Because in the first case it would be against violence and in the second not.
In #29 Marco says the Erek could not hold Ax:
Marco didn't bother with a comeback. "If Ax goes into delirious mode, he
could go running into town with underpants on his head or something.
Erek won't be able to stop him."
He was right. The Chee aren't programmed for violence. Any kind of violence.
So the question is: Is holding a little girl that wants to go to her parent violent? I would guess so, but I am not sure.
But as I said above, she could hurt herself, and than they could hold her anymore. So I really think the Chees wouldn't work...
As I said before, the Chee don't have to use violence to restrain a little girl. The Chee are the most wasted resource the Animorphs ever had. With all their hologram technology, strength and other resources (presumably financially capable) they can definitely treat the girl better than killing her. The Chee are not stupid and would know letting the girl escape would cause more harm to the Animorphs and thus destroy mankind's only hope. It would be logical for them to assist in the best way that they can. I cannot say it enough, the Chee could have been used so much more than they were.
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I think another thing to consider is the care Karen would receive from the Chee.
Obviously, they could provide for her basic needs, entertainment, education, food, shelter, etc.
But if anything were to go wrong, she was pretty much dead. (Then again, this is according to book 29, and if we want to pick and choose which books we deem "Cannon," I am not sure this argument could work.) Erek stated that there were no Chee capable of performing brain surgery on Ax, and there was no mention of Chee capable of being doctors in the other books. If she were to get moderately to seriously sick/injured, they couldn't take her to a hospital.
It's easy to say that nothing would likely happen, but the likely hood of something happening, I think, is very high. Most diseases are mild because doctors are able to prescribe/use fixes that come easily to them, prescriptions, surgeries, etc. When we lack that, simple things like bronchitis or even a dog bite are easily fatal.
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I think another thing to consider is the care Karen would receive from the Chee.
Obviously, they could provide for her basic needs, entertainment, education, food, shelter, etc.
But if anything were to go wrong, she was pretty much dead. (Then again, this is according to book 29, and if we want to pick and choose which books we deem "Cannon," I am not sure this argument could work.) Erek stated that there were no Chee capable of performing brain surgery on Ax, and there was no mention of Chee capable of being doctors in the other books. If she were to get moderately to seriously sick/injured, they couldn't take her to a hospital.
It's easy to say that nothing would likely happen, but the likely hood of something happening, I think, is very high. Most diseases are mild because doctors are able to prescribe/use fixes that come easily to them, prescriptions, surgeries, etc. When we lack that, simple things like bronchitis or even a dog bite are easily fatal.
Okay, so maybe the Chee cant fix it, but Cassie might be able to and she probably would, considering helping people and animals is like her life. If Cassie can do brain surgery on an alien, then why shouldnt she know how to help cure Karen?
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I definitely agree the Chee could have been used more. Not to mention the YPM and free Hork-Bajir. I can only assume KA really didn't want much focus taken away from the main characters. She may have even stated it outright somewhere, though I can't prove that. The most glaring example being that they waited until book 25 to have Chee cover for them while on missions. It wouldn't be hard for the Chee to set up a sanctuary specifically for rescued hosts and members of the YPM. The authors just didn't go that route. Heck, even having the Chee be the ones to start the yPM wouldn't be out of character.
Maybe the other side is right. Maybe there was a slim chance that should have at least been tried. That's just not how the plot went. Instead we got a plot hole where the Yeerks just ignored Karen for all we know.
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I wonder if they couldn't have rewritten something so the 'we can never forget anything' part didn't come into play. And really, you have to wonder how the Pemalites overcame information storage limits anyway...it seems to me that any computerized machine would have to erase things every so often to allow storage of new material.
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Not to comment on the moral issue but merely as a practical point:
I notice some people are suggesting Karen is only a very young child- around 5 years old. I think she's more likely to be in the region of 8-10 for several reasons:
- Cassie gives her an approximately 3ft long stick to use as a crutch. As a crutch would sit under her arm, she's probably around 4ft tall. Expected height for a 5 year old girl is 3ft 4 inches, for an 8 year old 3ft 9, and for a 10 year old 4ft 3, so she's probably between 8-10, or an exceptionally tall 5 year old which is possible.
- Would her parents really let a 5 year old out alone as often as would be required for .e.g. visits to the Yeerk pool, spying on Cassie etc. We know that the night before Cassie meets Karen Aftran was spying on her during the night, meaning Karen is out fairly late. Her parents probably didn't give permission for an 8 year old to do this either, but I think they'd be even more concerned were she only five.
- Karen feels 'pity' for Aftran. Although 5 year olds are capable of empathy this tends to be restricted to familiar people/situations e.g. another child losing something or a familiar dog hurting its paw. Only later on is empathy for unfamiliar people/situations developed- and I think a slug who is blind, deaf and helpless without enslaving other beings is definitely an unfamiliar situation for any age group.
- She's described by Cassie as a 'little girl'. The animorphs were around 13 when the war started so Cassie is probably around 14 now. I think an 8 year old is still a little girl to a 14 year old. I was around 9 myself when I first read the book so I initially thought of Karen as about 5, which is perhaps where this idea is coming from, but I don't think that's the age KAA intended.
Of course, Karen could still be anything from 5- about 11, this is just how I've always imagined her age, and personally I don't think her age makes a difference to the moral issue: she's still an innocent party whom, had Aftran not been as kind and brave as she was, failing to kill could have resulted in the loss of the human race.
I also still think it's a plothole that she managed to escape without being reinfested. I could understand it if she'd left the country as her family certainly had the money to do, but she was just wandering around the heavily Yeerk-infiltrated mall (there's even an entrance to the Yeerk pool there!) uninfested with no consequences? I'd have liked to see that bit of the story more fully developed.
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I wouldn't consider an 8-10 year old a little kid. Then again I've heard some people call a 17 year old a child.
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I think it's more a legal thing with teenagers. But I probably would with the 8-10 group.
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i think 8-10 is okay. She sounds like that, and being 6 years older, Cassie could call her a little child. For kids 6 years younger than me, yeah, I would, at the very least, call them a young child. But I'm not too sure that Cassie would call someone 6 years younger a little child, considering she thinks animals are important enough to vote (according to Rachel)
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I will admit that someone in the 9 year ballpark would likely have sense enough to stay hidden if left with the Chee. The main problem should have just been getting her out of the woods without the Yeerks finding out the "Andalites" were helping some random controller/host.