Marco killing Karen

[Chad32]

First, we don't know what she thinks of Hork-Bajir. Maybe they give her nightmares. Having one or two guard her wouldn't make her want to stay. Second, animals show plenty of compassion. There really isn't much that separates us from them, aside from intelligence level. That's another subject, though. This is why many people, including me, hate Cassie so much. Thought processes like this.

[Darth Zakryn]

Well, all I'm saying is Marco didn't even consider another option. If he wanted to try and kill her, fine, but he didn't want to try and even think of anything else because the cold-blooded bastard thinks death is better than being a Controller... I'd choose being a Controller. No, seriously. I so do not want to die. That is how much I fear death and how desperately I want to survive. Even starving in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

[Noelle]

We have no way of knowing whether or not Marco weighed all the other options.  He was a master tactician.  I would believe that he has already considered all other options and already found out killing her was the only way.


We saw it from Cassie's point of view, not Marco's.  In all of Marco's books he THINKS about his plans and then says what hes doing.  He doesn't sit there and make a huge speech about it.  That's Cassie's forte.

And even IF he didn't think being dead is better than being a controller, why the heck would they leave her a controller?  So she can go off and rat them out to Visser Three?  Keep in mind he has NO knowledge of the Yeerk peace movement, Cassie didn't even really know much about it at that point.


I again stress, there was NO other option.  Are you really going to trust the fate of the world to an herbivorous pacifist that can't even add one and one?  Um...yeah...at that point you might as well just surrender to the Yeerks.

[Canicula]

You always say there was a way out of it and I/we don't want to see it, but that's not true. We just understand why Marco thought it was necessary to kill Karen. See:
He hadn't spoke with her, he didn't knew Aftran and that she may would enter the peace-movement. All he knew was that there was a little infested girl, and that aftran had been in Cassie's had. He knew, that Aftran knew everything about them and that the yirks would infest or kill them if they ever get to know who the andalite bandits are. So what options did the have? They had two:
1. Starving the yirk out
2. Kill Karen

If they would have starved the yirk out there would be the one big problem: What to do with Karen?
Hiding them with the Hork Bajirs or the chees?
The Hork Bajirs could not care for a child, they could not! What should Karen eat up there? Not to mention that that little girl would live with aliens that looked like monsters. So this wasn't really a possibility.
And the chees? I think I said often enough that they just could not hold her back if she wanted to run away. So if they chose this option there was always a risk.
The second option was killing her. It would have been a really cruel decision, but it would have been reasonable.They just could not risk anything, to much depended on them. They could not give up anything for just one human.
And lets think it through: If Karen would have escaped, the yirks would have found her, the animorphs would have been destroyed and the war was over, which means the every person on earth would be made a controller. Also Karen. So, would she had gained anything?

The fact that you really can't understand where I'm coming from frightens me. This is why I hate humans so much.

Even if you won't believe me: I actually CAN understand what you mean. It's not like I think "oh okay, kill her, that's okay". No, I don't think so, for me life is sacred, but I know that the reality is that sometimes you need to make sacrifices, if you want to or not.

Can't you see where I'm coming from? Can't you see how I feel about this? Really, there was a way out. You just don't want to even consider it could be a good solution. You want to protect the human race, fine, but at what cost? Any cost? If we lose what makes us human in the first place, is there any point in fighting anymore?

If there is a good solution then tell me which. But don't come with the Hork Bajirs or the Chees. I think I made it clear that I can't see a good solution in it.
And to You want to protect the human race, fine, but at what cost? Any cost? Well, you want to save one human but at what coast?...

[Aquilai]

Ok. TIME OUT.

DZ's views should not be so easily dismissed just because they are resolute. It seems everyone is so focused on just telling him he's wrong, all other options ARE out of the window which is quite narrow minded.

1) Why can't the Chee hold a little girl?
2) Why do the Chee have to remain in their natural forms to "hold" the girl?
3) Is it a fact that that there is no other options?

1) They can contain a Yeerk against it's will so why not a little girl?
2) They can create a hologram 24/7 to give the girl a chance at a normal life. They've been around since the Egyptian times this is hardly a bigger drain on their batteries.
3) They could always ask the Chee what safe havens there are where the Yeerks haven't considered to relocate the girl with a loving family.

Point 2 seems to be the solution I would have chosen. I can't say that I've read the book recently. Actually without looking it up I can't even remember which one it is. The point I'm making is that there are always other options if you are willing to give the other side a chance. I'm just sorry it's taken me this long to pick up this topic to read. Apologies DZ.

[Noelle]

The reason the Chee wouldn't be able to do it is because they are physically incapable of keeping her from escaping.  It is in violation of their code.  She could escape at any time and pose a threat do the animorphs by being recaptured.

Is it ever stated they contain a Yeerk?  I always thought they didn't, because if they did there would be NO way they could serve as spies.  To hold it for three days and not return it to the pool would be violence.  To hold it and then return it to the pool is to out themselves.

It doesn't really matter what the Chee can do, the point is they cannot safely contain her and keep her from being a threat.

And if they relocated her to another family, how could they ever hope that she would not say something about the Yeerks, and get outed anyway.  She's a little kid, no one can hope for her to be put in an orphanage or relocate her to another family and have her be quiet.

And keep in mind, her father was a BILLIONAIRE.  Do you think he'd let his little girl go missing quietly.  Nope, the Yeerks would know something was up.


And that is what the other pages of this thread was about.  What other options are there?  If there are some post them, we've debunked the rest of them.  This was nothing about being narrow-minded or attacking him.  It was about the stark fact that there were NO other options.


So, if there are some, then we could probably be swayed.  We aren't being narrow-minded, merely debating with the logical information we have about the series.

[RYTX]

I for one am not, questioning the Chee holding her. **
It could work.
So could sending her to live in a tribe in the Amazon.
Other options could have worked

My issue is trying to fault Marco for not coming up with other options on the spot, and saying his fail to do so would entitle the family to seek vengeance/justice

As I understand it, this topic started with

In my opinion, that should have been saved as a last resort, yet he seemed too eager to try to do it, and couldn't understand afterwards why Cassie wouldn't let him go through with it.

I disagree, and have yet to hear a case saying
1) why Marco should have had alternative ready, or be expected to spent any length of time preparing one on the spot considering the situation
2) and why killing the kid would have been inexcusable in that situation had he done it?

Answer these questions for me and I'd probably be made a bit more sympathetic- but until than I'm only hearing there were other choices & it's wrong because it's wrong.


**The Chee not being able to hold her thing is probably rooted where Erek says he couldn't restrain Ax in book 29 should the Andalite make an escape. This is ridiculous as Chee can (and do) sudue a grizzly bear, but because niether is ever addressed properly it's unclear if/which would be a violation of their programming, or is a KASU/Ghost writer error.

In book 10 Erek shows a Yeerk trapped in his head, and kept alive by the Chee through their technology, they put on holograms of it reentering the pool. But a Yeerk in a Chee is made a prisoner. Like bear wrestling, an argument that they can restrain someone

[Chad32]

It says in book 10, which introduced the Chee, that Erek has a Yeerk in his head and they can produce kandrona radiation to keep it alive. It's helpless, and since it can't hurt itsself, they can hold it. Unless they kept Karen restrained at all times, she could struggle and fight and hurt herself. This is why they can't stop her. They can't relocate her to a new family because her father would probably use his fortune to find her.

[Aquilai]

Ok just looked it up. This was one of the most important books for the Animorphs so I was pretty sure I remembered that vital bit of detail

  <How did you convince the Yeerks that you are one of them?> Ax asked him.
  Erek turned off his hologram and became a machine once again. And then the front of his head
split open. Inside his steel and ivory head was a chamber, just a few inches in diameter.  And inside that chamber was a gray slug,
helpless, unable to escape. Tiny wires, no thicker than hairs, wrapped around it.
  <Yeerk!> Ax hissed.
  "Yes," Erek said. "The Yeerks believe I am human. I accepted infestation. But of course the Yeerk cannot make a Controller of me. I made a
place for him instead. He sees nothing. Knows nothing. I tapped his memory, not the other way around. And now I can pass among the Yeerks like one of them."
  I had two reactions. One, I was sick at the thought of that Yeerk, trapped inside a steel cage. As much as I hated Yeerks, it seemed harsh just the
same. But another reaction was much stronger. We had an ally! A powerful ally. An android who could pass as a Controller, who could enter Yeerk society. And an android with many powers of his own.
  "How do you keep the Yeerk alive without Kandrona rays?" Cassie asked.
  See, every three days a Yeerk has to return to the Yeerk pool to absorb Kandrona rays. Without that, they die.
  "I am able to use my own internal power to generate Kandrona rays to keep this Yeerk alive," Erek explained. "When I go to the Yeerk
pool I am able to trick the Yeerks into believing that my Yeerk is swimming in the pool. I generate a hologram of a Yeerk leaving my ear
and dropping into the pool. Later, I create a hologram of it returning. The Yeerks never notice that they don't encounter this Yeerk actually
in the pool. Yeerks communicate very little in their natural states."

There are ALWAYS other options. Death should be very last choice when every other is exhausted. I can accept Marco may not have thought about this (in their situation) but someone could have.

The Chee have always been underused. In this case Chee holography is the key to giving her a semblance of reality. Mix in the idea that the Chee can get/make whatever they want (financially I'm sure they're not in trouble). There is a real chance at keeping the girl safe and give her some degree of normality. I forgot about her parents being rich but as I said, I haven't read the book recently and it really isn't too important.

[Noelle]

It says in book 10, which introduced the Chee, that Erek has a Yeerk in his head and they can produce kandrona radiation to keep it alive. It's helpless, and since it can't hurt itsself, they can hold it. Unless they kept Karen restrained at all times, she could struggle and fight and hurt herself. This is why they can't stop her. They can't relocate her to a new family because her father would probably use his fortune to find her.

I see, thanks for reminding me about that.

But I do agree, they would be unable to restrain her, and thus wouldn't be able to keep her there.


edit: I did not see RTYX's response, I had always assumed, due to 29, that they were unable to restrain.  Did they restrain a grizzly bear?  Which book was that?  ( I don't doubt you, I just hate it when I forget a fact and I want to read it, lol.)  Though, I do not believe that the imprisoned Yeerk is evidence that they can restrain.  I think it's one of those short-circuit which-violent-option-do-i-choose-because-both-options-are-violent type of things, because if they released the Yeerk then it would cause voilence to the Chee, obviously the Chee would be programmed to avoid this.

But that just calls into question the whole Chee involvement...givin g information also causes violence...but I digress, for another thread.

If that is the case, then I suppose that they could restrain her and trap her 

So I suppose they could have a Team of Chee dedicated to keeping her in a simulated, fake environment where she magically doesn't walk into walls when she "goes to school" or something like that.  (Matrix?  Anyone?)

But that just begs the question...what about the father?  He would have not let his little girl go missing like that.  I suppose the Chee could fake her death.




At that, I defer to RTYX.  This is not an option Marco knew about.  Marco and the other animorphs never even thought about the Chee impersonating already alive members (iirc, I could be wrong) until book 25.  It never would have occurred to Marco. Therefore, he made the best choice with the information he had.

[RYTX]

Mr. King held Rachel in a full Nelson that she couldn't get out of when she burst into there house in book 10
bear.

"HhhhRRAAAAWWRRR!" Rachel roared in rage and frustration.
Frustration, see, because the Chee who passed as Erek's father had her in a full nelson. His human-holograph arms were wrapped around the unbelievably massive shoulders of the grizzly, and he was actually holding the great bear still.
He had pinned a grizzly so powerful it could literally turn a Toyota into an aluminum can.
"Okay, now I've seen everything," I said.

Quoted more than I need to but, that last line makes it funnier

[Chad32]

He also said if she didn't stop struggling, he'd have to let her go.

[RYTX]

No, he said

""Of course, my "father" here knew she was not atrue bear. And he only held onto her. He did not destroy her. If Rachel had been strong enough to win, my "father" would have had no choice but to allow himself to be destroyed. I laughed. "I see why you want to change that.""

That has nothing to do with the bear hurting itself in the struggle or having to release it: and either way, he stopped the bear from moving without hurting it

I'm sure he could pin down a little girl without issue, and being an andriod could hold on far longer than she could struggle


***Amending previous statement
In 29 Erek doesn't say he couldn't stop Ax.
Marco says it and Cassie agrees, and Jake later restates the notion. GW Screw up imo, but still an unresolved source of continuity error

[Chad32]

Ok. My mistake. Still, switching from one prison to another wouldn't be much better.

[Noelle]

And let me address the "Well, Marco should have been psychic and known that the chee could help" thing, because I know its coming.


That is like suing your doctor for malpractice because he is unable to cure your incurable disease.  He doesn't know how to save you.  He doesn't have the knowledge of the cure yet.

Does the cure exist.  Well, of course it does, it has yet to be scientifically discovered, but it still exists (like the solution of having the Chee create a little fictitious world for her to live in.)

But it is stupid to sue the doctor, he has 0 knowledge that he can cure your disease.  Just like Marco has 0 knowledge of how to save Karen.  Thereby, he was still justified.