Marco killing Karen

[Darth Zakryn]

So you'd take the easy way out? You know, this is what's so wrong with the world! People don't want to show each other even the slightest bit of compassion. I'll reiterate: What if that had been your relative, and they could have saved her life, but didn't do so? They had the chance; they just didn't want to take it. And you're all forgetting one obvious thing: They could have made her an Animorph once they got the blue box back!

[Canicula]

It isn't about taking the easiest way. It is about to choose between bad or worse. It is about trying to save the world in their case. And it has also nothing to do with compassion.  Of course it is sad and of course would feel pity for her but as I said, they couldn't take any risk. They could not risk to loose everything!
And about the blue box: Well, even if they could make her an animorph (Would you really make a little girl fighting in a war? That is heartless!), how would they know that they would receive the blue box back. They thought the box has been destroyed.

[RYTX]

?!
Easy way out? There is no easy way out. Explain, how the f is that an easy out
I reiterate: no matter how personal, how close that person is to you, what can you do to Marco to undo it? What do you say to Marco's mom when you've got him put away for taking someone from you, when what he did is on behalf of so many others. Why can't she then put you away for taking her son from her.

And you are IGNORING what everyone has said repeatedly.
Most people can't  think of something like that under such tense situations.
It's impratical, illogical, and why every solider doesn't goes straight to prison after service. There's always alternatives.
There is not always a way to find them

And you'd make a  what, ten year old an Animorph? You'd ask her to go kill and likely be killed?
That's nightmarish.

[Darth Zakryn]

This isn't your usual wartime situation. It's not a shooting war or a war of ideologies; it's a war to change our way of life, and as such, it's going to be completely different than the ones we fight.

I view all of the killing the Animorphs did, against the Hork-Bajir and the Taxxons, to be murder, since they're killing helpless innocents, but there's a bit of reason and understanding to it; they're all adults, and I don't care what anyone says about Hork-Bajir, they still have forms of maturity. I don't view the Hork-Bajir as childlike, but simple, so let's get that out of the way. Plus those Controllers were attacking them, so it became a case of self-defense of the "in the heat of the moment" type.

Now, let's take a look at Karen/Aftran. She's a little girl, armed, alone and defenseless, and her host doesn't want to die, and there's a chance her life could be spared, even if only temporarily. Who wouldn't want to take that chance? Really? It's risky to do so, but there are times when you've got to think about other people. Killing children is wrong and it should only be committed unless absolutely necessary. Is it necessary to kill Karen? Like I say, they could take her to the Chee or the Hork-Bajir and she could live there, they might even be able to shelter her whole family if they went with the Hork-Bajir. Plus she's not fighting back, which makes it even more ruthless and all the more evil.

It's not the fact that they wanted to kill her that bothered me; it's the fact that they didn't even consider any other option! Even if they just considered it! Are you honestly trying to say that roughing it in the woods or living underground with mechanical dogs is worse than death?

Like I keep saying, that could have been your relative. How would any of you feel if they killed that relative, a helpless young child, practically a baby, without at least trying to save her life? How do you not try? I'm sorry, but I have these little things called "feelings," and I'd rather die than betray them.

[Canicula]

Okay, one last time I try to explain you what I think about that:

Are you honestly trying to say that roughing it in the woods or living underground with mechanical dogs is worse than death?

She could stay with them, but, as I mentioned before, the problem is, that the chees couldn't hold her from running away and searching for her parents. It IS risky, if she would ran away the yirks WOULD find her. And like I said, that would be the end of the war, they could not take the risk and the only other possibility would be the Hork Bajirs, and honestly: How can you leave a little girl with aliens that look like monsters. She would probably ran away and we would be at the same problem as before.

Yeah it would be hard if it would be one of my relatives, but if I would know what depended on the decision, I think I would understand it.

[Darth Zakryn]

Karen doesn't strike me as the type to rush out and look for her parents, especially after all she's been through. She might ask the Chee to look after him, but I don't think she'd risk getting reinfested. Really.

[RYTX]

Well this is going to be my point of disagreement.
I've said repeatedly, regardless of who it is, no matter how sad it is, with any real empathy you have to understand that an adolscent at war is not going to pause to maintain the security of his unit. You want him to, but realistically it's out and out ridiculous to expect him to. I've said all I can say as to why that moment was not a low pressure "lets assess" situation.
Marco didn't know Karen, Marco had not been talking to Aftran. Marco only saw that his teammate had put them in danger, and for him this was sure.
Marco is not a character of risk, and for as important a job he has, he shouldn't be.

You keep saying something is wrong because it's wrong. How a child's life is inherently more precious than adult is is solely a matter of opinion.  No matter who was there, it's not unreasonable for Marco not to look past the Yeerk to the Host.

I don't think it's much to assume we have the luxuary of Western suburbia, with nothing more riding on us than the happiness of ourselves and those closest to us.
Marco was thinking of others. He was thinking of his friends and the entire planet that depended on them.

And it's not a personal shot, but lots of people say what the would rather die than do. Honestly, I'd love to see what would really happen if that was put to the test. It's an unlucky few that really have the opportunity to do so

[Chad32]

Wasn't she like 5-7 years old? And you would have her become an Animorph? That's it. You're just not making sense. Plus about Hork-Bajir. You don't know they were all adults. Horks reach the size of an adult after about a year. Who knows how many children there are.

Just the thought of making a small child a soldier in the war when you demonize Marco for being willing to commit mercy killing is just wrong. Not that a bunch of 13 year olds should be fighting the war, but Karen was considerably younger than even them.

[Darth Zakryn]

The point is to try and save someone first, and kill them until necessary. Hell, if they wanted to keep her safe in the Chee park, they could have hired some Hork-Bajir for protection, and to keep her from running away. Seriously, that's a lot better than just killing her outright. For God's sake, people need to start using their heads! Not you guys, people in general, I mean. And you never answer my questions: How would you feel if that was your relative? Noelle has already said she could forgive the killer, but I couldn't do that.

There's a time for cold, ruthless, remorseless logic, and a time for reckless, hopeless, passionate emotion, or you could combine the two. That's what I'm trying to do. Seriously, if it had been ME in that situation, I would have tried to think of any way to save the host child, no matter how unpleasant, without killing her but also saving the world. Marco didn't even consider it, which shows what a despicable person he is. Depriving a child of all of the joys of life is just plain evil. To quote Dustin Hoffman: "It's murder, any way you wanna ****ing slice it!"

But I can see the people on this board are quite ruthless. I hope your families know you'd sell them out in a heartbeat to protect the human race.

[Canicula]

For God's sake, people need to start using their heads! Not you guys, people in general, I mean. And you never answer my questions: How would you feel if that was your relative? Noelle has already said she could forgive the killer, but I couldn't do that.

I used my head. The thing is you don't want to understand us. You want us to think about what you thinks it's right or wrong, but you don't even try to understand us.
As I said, like Noelle I think if I knew the circumstances I could understand it and forgive them for killing a person I know. Of course I would be sad, but  I would try to understand why they did it.

The decision Marco wanted to make is hard and may be ruthless, but it's not like he wanted to do it. He didn't saw an alternative. He thought about what possibilities they had and he saw that there was always a risk, and that is why he wanted to do it.

But I can see the people on this board are quite ruthless. I hope your families know you'd sell them out in a heartbeat to protect the human race.

If you think we are ruthless if we would 'sell our families to protect the human race' I don't understand you.
You say you would rather rather sell out the whole planet just to save one person? Sorry, but THIS is ruthless.

[Darth Zakryn]

Tell that to your loved one who has been deprived of all of the wonderful things of life.

What makes humanity different than all of the animals? Compassion. And if someone isn't going to exercise it when it really matters, to prevent the helpless murder of unarmed child who has committed no wrong and isn't fighting back, then when will we use it? Marco could have used compassion, but compassion with logic.

The fact that you really can't understand where I'm coming from frightens me. This is why I hate humans so much.

[RYTX]

And you never answer my questions: How would you feel if that was your relative? Noelle has already said she could forgive the killer, but I couldn't do that

To be blunt: It's someone I care about, I'm saddened. No, I don't forgive, but that doesn't mean I try to kill him or lock him up.
I live with it, because I understand that for him, that situation, it was the best course of action that kept a LOT more people save
The same way millions of people all over the world live day by day with their grief when someone wrongs them.
Not forgiving is not the same as vengening.

But I can see the people on this board are quite ruthless. I hope your families know you'd sell them out in a heartbeat to protect the human race.

....Okay so I know I don't want you fighting on behalf of the human race.

Don't act like people would be indifferent to that decision; it's a huge loss, but people do it and live with it.

That's nice you want to protect one person, but if you are unwilling to sacrifice one life and your feeling for the ENTIRE world take 'em and go hide and the woods and stay there when the fighting starts.

[Darth Zakryn]

Can't you see where I'm coming from? Can't you see how I feel about this? Really, there was a way out. You just don't want to even consider it could be a good solution. You want to protect the human race, fine, but at what cost? Any cost? If we lose what makes us human in the first place, is there any point in fighting anymore?

[RYTX]

I totally see where you're coming from, I can understand how you feel; I still disagree with you.
Because I don't understand your refusal to allow someone else a different course of action: a sacrifice.
I AM SAYING again, and again, that in that situation, it would have been bad practice to do what you're asking. Those solutions where not accessible AT THAT MOMENT in THAT SITUATION, so there is no reason he should have been have been obligated to seek an alternative to what he would have done.
He doesn't have the luxuary of infinite solutions and backup and time he has to deal with a situation in the moment, not a bunch of potential ones

As Cassie once said "Deal with what is. Not with what should be"

Any cost? No.
One life? Yes. Unfornuate, you don't it lightly, but if that's the choice a million times yes
A dozen? A town? A State? If need
The ONLY six creatures on the planet fighting to protect it? No.
That's what you're weighing against, the protection of countless vs one.

If you are totally unwilling to sacrifice anything you shouldn't be in a fight. You have to know that you can give things up-even if you don't like it.
This book is all about that, Cassies hits her boiling point and has to get out.
This series, wouldn't work, because real life doesn't work, if everyone could always point out and grab the best answer
Does taking one life mean forever humanity is lost? That a person can never redeem himself for one error?
That seems to be rather extreme.

Your views on what makes a person good seem pretty inflexible.
But everyone draws there own lines
This wasn't a fight about saving human ethics, it was a fight about saving humans: keeping them from becoming livestock.
If the cost to do that is a handful of lives, you pay it, you lament it, and you do what you have to do.
The Animorphs as characters are interesting because everyone has a different line, but for none of them (and very few real people) is it all or nothing.
If Elfangor landed in front of 5 kids who never would flex theirs wills, never compromise they're values, they'd not have been good soliders.
And you can't compare the requirements a battle to the idealic desires of day to day living

[Darth Zakryn]

God, people supporting such unfair decisions makes me lose all faith in humanity...