Marco killing Karen

[Pippi]

Hmm, I don't know if this sounds crazy, but I don't think Marco would have done it. I have a feeling that Marco might not have had the guts to kill Karen even if they left her at his mercy. That would have been beastly. Necessary, but beastly. He might have changed his mind at the last minute. It happened other times in the series where the solution to saving the day involved taking a life but at the last minute they changed their minds and had to find a way around it. I'm not certain but it could have been the same in this case.

[Chad32]

This is the guy that tried to kill his other. Yes he would have killed Karen.

[Noelle]

*mother

I only correct because I read the post and went "brother?  Since when did he have a brother?"  *reread*  "oh, mother."

I agree he would have done it.  I believe he would have felt incredibly guilty for it (when he killed his mother he stayed in bed for seven days straight), but he would have done it.

[Pippi]

Well, you guys are right about him being capable of doing it. I guess I was just hoping that unless killing Karen was the very last option they had, despite Marco's ruthlessness he might just have come up with some other plan.

[Canicula]

Mr. King held Rachel in a full Nelson that she couldn't get out of when she burst into there house in book 10
bear.

"HhhhRRAAAAWWRRR!" Rachel roared in rage and frustration.
Frustration, see, because the Chee who passed as Erek's father had her in a full nelson. His human-holograph arms were wrapped around the unbelievably massive shoulders of the grizzly, and he was actually holding the great bear still.
He had pinned a grizzly so powerful it could literally turn a Toyota into an aluminum can.
"Okay, now I've seen everything," I said.

Quoted more than I need to but, that last line makes it funnier

Yes he could hold her because if he would not hold her it would lead to more violence than if he hold her back.
But if Karen wanted to escape she would not do anything violent, so it would be more violent to held her back. As someone already said, she could hurt herself if they hold her.
I always thought that's why he could hold Rachel back and he couldn't hold Karen. Because in the first case it would be against violence and in the second not.

In #29 Marco says the Erek could not hold Ax:

Marco didn't bother with a comeback. "If Ax goes into delirious mode, he
could go running into town with underpants on his head or something.
Erek won't be able to stop him."
He was right. The Chee aren't programmed for violence. Any kind of violence.

So the question is: Is holding a little girl that wants to go to her parent violent? I would guess so, but I am not sure.
But as I said above, she could hurt herself, and than they could hold her anymore. So I really think the Chees wouldn't work...

[Chad32]

Some keys on my keyboard don't work properly all the time. Including the letter M.

[Aquilai]

Yes he could hold her because if he would not hold her it would lead to more violence than if he hold her back.
But if Karen wanted to escape she would not do anything violent, so it would be more violent to held her back. As someone already said, she could hurt herself if they hold her.
I always thought that's why he could hold Rachel back and he couldn't hold Karen. Because in the first case it would be against violence and in the second not.

In #29 Marco says the Erek could not hold Ax:

Marco didn't bother with a comeback. "If Ax goes into delirious mode, he
could go running into town with underpants on his head or something.
Erek won't be able to stop him."
He was right. The Chee aren't programmed for violence. Any kind of violence.

So the question is: Is holding a little girl that wants to go to her parent violent? I would guess so, but I am not sure.
But as I said above, she could hurt herself, and than they could hold her anymore. So I really think the Chees wouldn't work...

As I said before, the Chee don't have to use violence to restrain a little girl. The Chee are the most wasted resource the Animorphs ever had. With all their hologram technology, strength and other resources (presumably financially capable) they can definitely treat the girl better than killing her. The Chee are not stupid and would know letting the girl escape would cause more harm to the Animorphs and thus destroy mankind's only hope. It would be logical for them to assist in the best way that they can. I cannot say it enough, the Chee could have been used so much more than they were.

[Noelle]

I think another thing to consider is the care Karen would receive from the Chee.


Obviously, they could provide for her basic needs, entertainment, education, food, shelter, etc.

But if anything were to go wrong, she was pretty much dead.  (Then again, this is according to book 29, and if we want to pick and choose which books we deem "Cannon," I am not sure this argument could work.)  Erek stated that there were no Chee capable of performing brain surgery on Ax, and there was no mention of Chee capable of being doctors in the other books.  If she were to get moderately to seriously sick/injured, they couldn't take her to a hospital.

It's easy to say that nothing would likely happen, but the likely hood of something happening, I think, is very high.  Most diseases are mild because doctors are able to prescribe/use fixes that come easily to them, prescriptions, surgeries, etc.  When we lack that, simple things like bronchitis or even a dog bite are easily fatal.

[yunyun]

I think another thing to consider is the care Karen would receive from the Chee.


Obviously, they could provide for her basic needs, entertainment, education, food, shelter, etc.

But if anything were to go wrong, she was pretty much dead.  (Then again, this is according to book 29, and if we want to pick and choose which books we deem "Cannon," I am not sure this argument could work.)  Erek stated that there were no Chee capable of performing brain surgery on Ax, and there was no mention of Chee capable of being doctors in the other books.  If she were to get moderately to seriously sick/injured, they couldn't take her to a hospital.

It's easy to say that nothing would likely happen, but the likely hood of something happening, I think, is very high.  Most diseases are mild because doctors are able to prescribe/use fixes that come easily to them, prescriptions, surgeries, etc.  When we lack that, simple things like bronchitis or even a dog bite are easily fatal.

Okay, so maybe the Chee cant fix it, but Cassie might be able to and she probably would, considering helping people and animals is like her life. If Cassie can do brain surgery on an alien, then why shouldnt she know how to help cure Karen?

[Chad32]

I definitely agree the Chee could have been used more. Not to mention the YPM and free Hork-Bajir. I can only assume KA really didn't want much focus taken away from the main characters. She may have even stated it outright somewhere, though I can't prove that. The most glaring example being that they waited until book 25 to have Chee cover for them while on missions. It wouldn't be hard for the Chee to set up a sanctuary specifically for rescued hosts and members of the YPM. The authors just didn't go that route. Heck, even having the Chee be the ones to start the yPM wouldn't be out of character.

Maybe the other side is right. Maybe there was a slim chance that should have at least been tried. That's just not how the plot went. Instead we got a plot hole where the Yeerks just ignored Karen for all we know.

[SkyMorpher]

I wonder if they couldn't have rewritten something so the 'we can never forget anything' part didn't come into play. And really, you have to wonder how the Pemalites overcame information storage limits anyway...it seems to me that any computerized machine would have to erase things every so often to allow storage of new material.

[Kharina]

Not to comment on the moral issue but merely as a practical point:

I notice some people are suggesting Karen is only a very young child- around 5 years old.  I think she's more likely to be in the region of 8-10 for several reasons:

- Cassie gives her an approximately 3ft long stick to use as a crutch.  As a crutch would sit under her arm, she's probably around 4ft tall.  Expected height for a 5 year old girl is 3ft 4 inches, for an 8 year old 3ft 9, and for a 10 year old 4ft 3, so she's probably between 8-10, or an exceptionally tall 5 year old which is possible.

- Would her parents really let a 5 year old out alone as often as would be required for .e.g. visits to the Yeerk pool, spying on Cassie etc.  We know that the night before Cassie meets Karen Aftran was spying on her during the night, meaning Karen is out fairly late.  Her parents probably didn't give permission for an 8 year old to do this either, but I think they'd be even more concerned were she only five.

- Karen feels 'pity' for Aftran.  Although 5 year olds are capable of empathy this tends to be restricted to familiar people/situations e.g. another child losing something or a familiar dog hurting its paw.   Only later on is empathy for unfamiliar people/situations developed- and I think a slug who is blind, deaf and helpless without enslaving other beings is definitely an unfamiliar situation for any age group.

- She's described by Cassie as a 'little girl'.  The animorphs were around 13 when the war started so Cassie is probably around 14 now.  I think an 8 year old is still a little girl to a 14 year old.  I was around 9 myself when I first read the book so I initially thought of Karen as about 5, which is perhaps where this idea is coming from, but I don't think that's the age KAA intended.

Of course, Karen could still be anything from 5- about 11, this is just how I've always imagined her age, and personally I don't think her age makes a difference to the moral issue: she's still an innocent party whom, had Aftran not been as kind and brave as she was, failing to kill could have resulted in the loss of the human race. 

I also still think it's a plothole that she managed to escape without being reinfested.  I could understand it if she'd left the country as her family certainly had the money to do, but she was just wandering around the heavily Yeerk-infiltrated mall (there's even an entrance to the Yeerk pool there!) uninfested with no consequences?  I'd have liked to see that bit of the story more fully developed.

[Chad32]

I wouldn't consider an 8-10 year old a little kid. Then again I've heard some people call a 17 year old a child.

[SkyMorpher]

I think it's more a legal thing with teenagers. But I probably would with the 8-10 group.

[yunyun]

i think 8-10 is okay. She sounds like that, and being 6 years older, Cassie could call her a little child. For kids 6 years younger than me, yeah, I would, at the very least, call them a young child. But I'm not too sure that Cassie would call someone 6 years younger a little child, considering she thinks animals are important enough to vote (according to Rachel)