Escafil Device

[A ghost you know]

ghost, the hawk knowing how to fly is a good point... the acquiring process must take at least part of the animal's memories as well. The animals having memories in some of the early books (Homer and Fluffer both recalled the people around them) has been described as a KASU, but I don't think it has to be. I like to think that the morphing technology always stores some of the memories of the animal, but it cuts out more and more of them the more morphs you have to save on space.

But how do the necessary memories get separated from the non-necessary memories?
Whenever the Animorphs morph into an animal with special abilities (e.g. a bird can fly, a seal or fish can swim, a monkey can swing through the trees), those abilities are always ready for use. Especially if more and more memories are being cut out as more morphs are acquired, picking the "right" memories to bring would be pretty difficult.

As for being able to store an entire human brain inside a system of nanites- I'm all for the concept of quantum storage. Theoretically, if you were to get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (since we're talking about Andalites here, why not? ), you could store and retrieve information from the states of quarks themselves, allowing a single molecule to store a decent amount of information. Our brains may be the most impressive information storage devices yet seen, but the neurons in which we store our information are still a heck of a lot larger than quarks. I'm not sure how much you could compress the information in our brains if you were to store it in this way, but it would be a significant decrease in space.

Interesting. I don't visualize anyone getting past the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle anytime soon, but it might be possible eventually. Until then, it would probably still be possible (although maybe not practical) to store some of the brain's information. Once again, though, the question is "What should be saved, what should be lost, and why?"

Now we get into a whole new problem set, too, with potential memory loss. The nanites would somehow have to sync the host's brain with the nanites before morphing, then re-sync the nanites with the host's brain after de-morphing. Otherwise, some memories would be lost.

On the other hand, I'm kind of starting to like the idea of the morpher's brain somehow being imprinted on the fabric of Z-space itself, though how that would work is way beyond me... and not aided at all by my lack of knowledge as to the nature of Zero Space...

I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.

While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.

Thoughts?

[Aluminator (Kit)]

ghost, the hawk knowing how to fly is a good point... the acquiring process must take at least part of the animal's memories as well. The animals having memories in some of the early books (Homer and Fluffer both recalled the people around them) has been described as a KASU, but I don't think it has to be. I like to think that the morphing technology always stores some of the memories of the animal, but it cuts out more and more of them the more morphs you have to save on space.

But how do the necessary memories get separated from the non-necessary memories?
Whenever the Animorphs morph into an animal with special abilities (e.g. a bird can fly, a seal or fish can swim, a monkey can swing through the trees), those abilities are always ready for use. Especially if more and more memories are being cut out as more morphs are acquired, picking the "right" memories to bring would be pretty difficult.

Not necessarily. The memories a hawk uses for flight are going to be some of its most frequently-used, well-ingrained thought patterns. "Muscle memory," so to speak. What memories the acquiring process takes could simply be a matter of prioritizing the most used neural pathways more highly than the lesser-used ones.

As for being able to store an entire human brain inside a system of nanites- I'm all for the concept of quantum storage. Theoretically, if you were to get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (since we're talking about Andalites here, why not? ), you could store and retrieve information from the states of quarks themselves, allowing a single molecule to store a decent amount of information. Our brains may be the most impressive information storage devices yet seen, but the neurons in which we store our information are still a heck of a lot larger than quarks. I'm not sure how much you could compress the information in our brains if you were to store it in this way, but it would be a significant decrease in space.

Interesting. I don't visualize anyone getting past the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle anytime soon, but it might be possible eventually. Until then, it would probably still be possible (although maybe not practical) to store some of the brain's information. Once again, though, the question is "What should be saved, what should be lost, and why?"

Now we get into a whole new problem set, too, with potential memory loss. The nanites would somehow have to sync the host's brain with the nanites before morphing, then re-sync the nanites with the host's brain after de-morphing. Otherwise, some memories would be lost.

True... it would be tricky to get right, but I think we can afford to give to give the Andalites that much credit

On the other hand, I'm kind of starting to like the idea of the morpher's brain somehow being imprinted on the fabric of Z-space itself, though how that would work is way beyond me... and not aided at all by my lack of knowledge as to the nature of Zero Space...

I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.

Haha... actually, I'm pretty sure she did. It's just an equivalent to every other alternate-reality-where-FTL travel-is-possible in sci fi. The fact that it's not real doesn't help my lack of knowledge

While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.

Thoughts?

That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.
Post Merged: May 18, 2010, 10:59:49 AMThis discussion is from http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4996.30

yeah, yeah... you guys and bantering for the sake of bantering. i like simple, clean answers. loopholes aren't my imagination's personal playground. i'm just here for the post count. toemaytoes, toemahtoes.

lol
Loopholes are my imagination's personal playground. I've been bitten by too many loopholes in the past, so I've gotten fairly good at finding them. Makes for some interesting discussions, too.

hmmm.... WHAT IF.

since mass is apparently stored in Z-space, why can't all of the information about your "DNA copies" (or your other acquired morphs) be stored there as well? Or in a similarly "linked to everywhere in space" location as a sort of intergalactic server to which you become connected the instant you touch an escafil device? so, once you "acquire" an animal, you send the DNA information on that morph to a "server" that also manages and regulates the mass you end up getting when you morph that animal? as a specific user, you only have access to your "user profile", including those morphs tied to your DNA. maybe the DNA of these animals is "swimming in your bloodstream" (ell-oh-ell) at all times (a byproduct of the acquisition-morph process, which i theorize a little differently), but the data regarding how that DNA is "used and structured" (requiring more explanation, enter laziness here) is elsewhere and can't be lost.

Wouldn't that do away with the morphing clock, though?
There are two possibilities here. #1, "active server": the "server" uses energy, which means it'll eventually run out and nobody will be able to access their morphs' DNA anymore. Morphing over. #2, "passive server": the "server" never uses any energy, so there's no need to worry about how long you spend in morph. Unless...... what if there was a happy mix? An "active/passive server", which would draw energy from the host? That would explain why morphing tires the host. Come to think of it, though, that still doesn't explain the morphing clock. nvm, I punched a hole in my own ponderings.

this thread made me giggle; the (imhhhhho) absurdity of it all had something to do with it. Dx

Absurdity?
I really think there's some value there, to be honest. I'm probably going way too far ahead, but I also think this might eventually turn into real morphing tech.

also: laziness ftw. i'm not going to check, and i forget if this thread's also covered morphing clothes... as well as artistic morphing stuff (getting to the Ax book with Aloth et al, where that chick andalite Estrid can morph an entire set of clothes with shoes.... that has nothing to do with DNA but more with chemical compounds and, uhh... how on earth do you acquire clothes?).... but yeah. has someone addressed this?

edit: i checked. no one's addressed this. someone tell me how clothes fit into the mix.

Yes, it's been addressed.

http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg387064#msg387064
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg387223#msg387223

http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg385699#msg385699
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg385730#msg385730

We should really take this to the Escafil Device thread, since we're now totally off-topic in this one.

that's why i said it. because it's true. D: i read minds, you see. ...or it was ridiculously obvious. you guys are predictable? O____o?

everyone gets bitten by loopholes. my solution is not to limit myself to playing by the rules of the ones who establish the loopholes, but to use the bigger picture as a source of alternatives to cover my ass.

anyhoo, i've already covered the "off-topic" thing, but that's apparently not stopping us. so here i am, still posting off-topic things.

about the morphing clock: you and i are speaking of different things. by which i mean to say, you and i relate the morphing clock and what i envision as a "server" in different ways and, in speaking of it, are totally missing each other, i think. pretty much, whatever it is that bridges the interdimensional gap between z-space, people, and mass (and i don't think it's "nanites"- what a security mess...), the thing that forces a human two-hour (convenient, eh? earth time, exactly two hours?) time limit isn't related to a server expiring. who knows what kind of energy is inherent in z-space mass? (e=mc^2?) so maybe your server uses energy... but also produces energy for itself as a byproduct of the morphing process.

also, no one's really discussing the logistics and energy required to convert z-space mass into people mass. O____o it has to be ENORMOUS. little neutrons, photons, new bonds, broken bonds... complete chemical makeup changed. and what the heck kind of mass IS z-space anyway? it's a completely different dimension! we're glossing over this, imho... and, well, none of us are biochemists, so i can see why. but i personally find it to be more probable to believe that the mass isn't coming from z-space, but from some random planet or moon or sun, etc., that the andalites have tied this system to.

lol.... so i am completely disagreeing with those posts you sent me (btw, i meant "covered in this thread", but i suppose i ought to have clarified for someone's sake). though... i am too lazy to invent plausible excuses for them. xD so who knows? maybe it all works and we have our answers already. we should just... launch into mass commercial production! let's do it!


....i stick by "absurd". in a nice way, however. it's not intended to be demeaning or belittling, but i'm not going to pretend to be patronizing, either. i just don't agree.

this won't become reality for a minimum of 100 years... and i'm leaning toward 500, if anyone ever finds any practical use for this technology ever.

let's say you manage to convince someone that normal disguises aren't doing the trick- because clearly, the CIA is just doing a terrible job at infiltrating everywhere. and that high-tech cameras from 100 years in the future won't be nearly as good at infiltration as near-deaf, near-blind flies and that the technology from the movie "avatar" won't automatically make morphing technology obsolete by putting a "killable" copy of a person out there in the field, rather than risking a for reals human life.

first, funding is an issue. who can you convince of the above that will have the money to launch this program?

second, the research, testing, implementation, and maintanence of the program you're proposing would have to be regulated stringently in america (so you're looking at resources from another country, and we all know that the economy everywhere right now is crap)... and then america would find out and want to get their hands on everything and so you're back to "regulations" and/or international economic standoffs. because america strong-arms everyone.

so... that would take forEVER. and third, advancing this technology is predicated on human experimentation, which, believe it or not, the government is not going to condone without some sort of successful 'animal' experimentation... and, well, buffa-human to the contrary, i don't think those experiments are going to work without forcing us to redraw the lines of morality in some way. period.

and not only the above (and others), but what credible scientist in 100 years is going to have learned anything from the suggestions from a bunch of nerds in an obscure forum dedicated to children's books? these topics are for fun... not meant to be taken seriously. it's simply improbable to assume (but not entirely illogical to hope) that these threads are for anything more than passing entertainment purposes.

so i giggle. for me, that's that.


((oh, yeah. i forgot. we also have to get busy discovering z-space and faster-than-light space travel. add another 100+ years to that one, assuming that "z-space" actually exists.))

Haha... Court, I think you're severely underestimating the increasing rate of advancement in human technology. We're on the verge of the technological singularity here, and once that's achieved, all concepts of the speed of technological advancement- along with humanity itself- become obsolete. But that's for another thread

As russianspy pointed out earlier, transmission of data (communication) through Z-space is instantaneous, but the transmission of matter (travel) through Z-space takes time. Since time does not seem to pass at the same rate for mass in Z-space as mass in real space, we've got the theory of the temporal displacement between the two masses being part of the cause for the two-hour time limit (which, as pointed out in http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=352.1230, is probably an approximate time limit). I like the "server" idea, but it can not be tied to mass in Z-space or it will not work. It might possibly be tied to mass in real space communicating via Z-space with the nanites (or whatever the device may be, Court ), but I really, really dislike the idea that either the mass or information dealing with morphing has to be tied to real space at the other end in any way. Not only would that allow the Yeerks to detect (and jam) the signals (nothing like having your morphing ability jammed, or your mind, if you're already in morph), but it requires the Andalites to have gone around setting up a galactic network before the series takes place, which I don't see as plausible, or in-character for them as a species. That's kind of why I'm starting to think it might be possible to imprint Z-space itself with the information needed. Otherwise, wouldn't Tobias' mind have lost contact with his body when he became a nothlit?

As for the energy involved... yeah, it'd probably take a fair amount, but you could always theorize that it's more about subtlety and technique than it is about brute force. Maybe breaking into Z-space is less about the amount of power used and more about the specific way the electromagnetic field in the area is manipulated. Human beings have such a linear way of looking at physics since relativity and the big bang theory have come into being, and I don't think anything is quite that simple.

[MoppingBear]

No, his mind wouldn't lose contact, because no matter how far it drifts, data transmission is still instantaneous.  The nanites in the body may only have a certain amount of energy to pull the mass back into real space, which they can't do if it is too far away.  However, that would make it impossible to become a nothlit in a large morph...  Maybe its an issue in the nanites themselves?  For two hours, they are able to stay in molecular flux, but after that, they lose cohesion?  hmmm that would cut off communication... So back to the different types of nanites, that allows us to put these two together, so the change nanites lose cohesion, but the communication ones, which may stay in z-space are able to maintain a mind link.

[Aluminator (Kit)]

No, his mind wouldn't lose contact, because no matter how far it drifts, data transmission is still instantaneous.  The nanites in the body may only have a certain amount of energy to pull the mass back into real space, which they can't do if it is too far away.  However, that would make it impossible to become a nothlit in a large morph...  Maybe its an issue in the nanites themselves?  For two hours, they are able to stay in molecular flux, but after that, they lose cohesion?  hmmm that would cut off communication... So back to the different types of nanites, that allows us to put these two together, so the change nanites lose cohesion, but the communication ones, which may stay in z-space are able to maintain a mind link.

Someone suggested in some thread (I'm totally blanking as to who or where at the moment) that every time you morph, your entire body might be sent to Z-space, and the morph might be constructed entirely from new matter pulled from Z-space. That would help explain why large and small morphs apparently behave the same way. If that's the case, then I think you're onto something here. It could well be that Tobias' mind continues to function and communicate with his body from Z-space, but the energy needed by the nanites to draw his mass through the more-than-two-hour time difference becomes too great. I think this is a more elegant solution than "some nanites work this way, some don't." Of course, this is yet another iteration of the multiple why-do-morphers-become-nothlits theories in this thread...

[BaronConall]

Posting earlier about E=mc2 got me in to a little off-topic thought...

Actually, I've been entertaining this thought for a few months now;
As we know, the potential Energy of any given object is equal to it's mass multiplied by the speed of light, squared.

What I'm trying to figure out is this: Andalites and thought-speak. Clearly tied to Psionics.

How would you measure Psionic Energy?

At first I was going off the idea that P=tc? (Psion= thought x speed of light... Squared? Cubed? Higher?), but thought itself is a concept and a pain in the ass in its own right to measure. Also, that would mean anyone who thinks more than me would immediately be more powerful. Not a feasible theory, in my opinion...

Any ideas?

[A ghost you know]

But how do the necessary memories get separated from the non-necessary memories?
Whenever the Animorphs morph into an animal with special abilities (e.g. a bird can fly, a seal or fish can swim, a monkey can swing through the trees), those abilities are always ready for use. Especially if more and more memories are being cut out as more morphs are acquired, picking the "right" memories to bring would be pretty difficult.

Not necessarily. The memories a hawk uses for flight are going to be some of its most frequently-used, well-ingrained thought patterns. "Muscle memory," so to speak. What memories the acquiring process takes could simply be a matter of prioritizing the most used neural pathways more highly than the lesser-used ones.

Hmm, that's possible.

Interesting. I don't visualize anyone getting past the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle anytime soon, but it might be possible eventually. Until then, it would probably still be possible (although maybe not practical) to store some of the brain's information. Once again, though, the question is "What should be saved, what should be lost, and why?"

Now we get into a whole new problem set, too, with potential memory loss. The nanites would somehow have to sync the host's brain with the nanites before morphing, then re-sync the nanites with the host's brain after de-morphing. Otherwise, some memories would be lost.

True... it would be tricky to get right, but I think we can afford to give to give the Andalites that much credit

Yeah, we can definitely give them credit for that.

I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.

Haha... actually, I'm pretty sure she did. It's just an equivalent to every other alternate-reality-where-FTL travel-is-possible in sci fi. The fact that it's not real doesn't help my lack of knowledge

"not real"? A quick Google search turned up http://www.scribd.com/doc/1251498/Implications-of-Zero-Space, and now I'm confused...

While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.

Thoughts?

That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.

We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.

One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?

[INH]

I'm not sure about the others, but since when does Ax have a timekeeping chip?  I thought that andalites were just naturally good at keeping track of time.

[A ghost you know]

I'm not sure about the others, but since when does Ax have a timekeeping chip?  I thought that andalites were just naturally good at keeping track of time.

Hm, maybe that was a fanfic.
He definitely has a translator chip, though, since the Andalite Chronicles mentions that all members of the Andalite military have translator chips in their brains.

[Aluminator (Kit)]

I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.

Haha... actually, I'm pretty sure she did. It's just an equivalent to every other alternate-reality-where-FTL travel-is-possible in sci fi. The fact that it's not real doesn't help my lack of knowledge

"not real"? A quick Google search turned up http://www.scribd.com/doc/1251498/Implications-of-Zero-Space, and now I'm confused...

Okay, well, I don't actually have time to read through that paper at the moment (although it's now come up enough that I will actually read it when I get a chance), but I will go on record to say right now that anything involving Z-space (or alternate dimensions/realities/whatever) is theoretical at best, and, as I suspect for this particular paper, deeply rooted in sci-fi fandom and speculation. Occasionally I'll see an almost-reasonable mathematical justification for belief in the existence of other universes, but overall the concept feels like a pipedream of physics to me. If proof (or even almost-proof) of anything like Z-space is ever uncovered, you can bet it'll make huge waves in the scientific community.

While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.

Thoughts?

That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.

We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.

I agree, but the technology seems to be decent at recognizing what constitutes thought processes in sentient beings. Humans and Yeerks both have no trouble gaining the morphing ability, and it's probably safe to say that the brains of humans, Yeerks and Andalites are probably all fairly different. If the technology can recognize sentient brains and respond to alien thought processes that easily, it's not unreasonable to imagine that it could also recognize the brains and thought patterns of non-sentient beings, right down to, say, fleas and ****roaches. I know it's not really an explanation, but that's the best I've got for now

One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?

I thought their timekeeping ability was natural, too... anyway, yeah, as for the translation chip... umm... I guess if the Andalites are capable of creating nanites capable of mapping out entire animals for use in later morphs, they'd probably be able to make a translation chip small enough that it would avoid interfering with a morph. The reason they couldn't morph flies at the time is that they had the big, clunky Yeerk chips in their brains.

And now I'm just straining myself to try to explain the series to cohesion

[MoppingBear]

Maybe its like the morphing suits, requires focus.  Ax knows exactly where in his brain the chips are, and what they look like, and thus is able to incorporate them into his morph.  With the new chip, they didn't know anything about it, so they couldn't make em morph with them.

[BaronConall]

I also remember reading that Andalites have a biological clock that adjusts to the planet they're on. I'm going with natural.
The traslator chip is Andalite tech, and as such is most likely made to morph with the carrier.

The Yeerks on the other hand are experimenting with animals while trying to discourage the Andalite Bandits. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to assume that the Yeerks made it so the chips weren't morph-compatible. It'd limit Andalite spies and also allow them to track the Andalites, should they become implanted... which they were

[A ghost you know]

Okay, well, I don't actually have time to read through that paper at the moment (although it's now come up enough that I will actually read it when I get a chance), but I will go on record to say right now that anything involving Z-space (or alternate dimensions/realities/whatever) is theoretical at best, and, as I suspect for this particular paper, deeply rooted in sci-fi fandom and speculation. Occasionally I'll see an almost-reasonable mathematical justification for belief in the existence of other universes, but overall the concept feels like a pipedream of physics to me. If proof (or even almost-proof) of anything like Z-space is ever uncovered, you can bet it'll make huge waves in the scientific community.

I'm not totally certain that paper is actually written by a scientifically-minded guy (spelling and grammar errors are liberally sprinkled throughout the paper, and I don't believe there should be a "bio" section in a real scientific paper), but it still seems to be worth reading. As for the accuracy of the ideas... well, I don't know.

That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.

We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.

I agree, but the technology seems to be decent at recognizing what constitutes thought processes in sentient beings. Humans and Yeerks both have no trouble gaining the morphing ability, and it's probably safe to say that the brains of humans, Yeerks and Andalites are probably all fairly different. If the technology can recognize sentient brains and respond to alien thought processes that easily, it's not unreasonable to imagine that it could also recognize the brains and thought patterns of non-sentient beings, right down to, say, fleas and ****roaches. I know it's not really an explanation, but that's the best I've got for now [/quote]
I reckon recognizing thought patterns/processes isn't that difficult (there's probably some sort of "signature", much like a computer virus can be identified by its "signature"), but recognizing the specific thought processes that are hooked to senses has to be much more difficult. Especially when you look at different senses and their different implementations (e.g. vision is very different in various animals: some creatures can see on the higher end of the color spectrum, some can see on the lower end of the color spectrum, and some can't even see at all), even recognizing the existence of all senses, let alone being able to tap into their full power, would be insanely difficult.

One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?

I thought their timekeeping ability was natural, too... anyway, yeah, as for the translation chip... umm... I guess if the Andalites are capable of creating nanites capable of mapping out entire animals for use in later morphs, they'd probably be able to make a translation chip small enough that it would avoid interfering with a morph. The reason they couldn't morph flies at the time is that they had the big, clunky Yeerk chips in their brains.

I also remember reading that Andalites have a biological clock that adjusts to the planet they're on. I'm going with natural.
The traslator chip is Andalite tech, and as such is most likely made to morph with the carrier.

The Yeerks on the other hand are experimenting with animals while trying to discourage the Andalite Bandits. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to assume that the Yeerks made it so the chips weren't morph-compatible. It'd limit Andalite spies and also allow them to track the Andalites, should they become implanted... which they were

OK, that makes sense. Besides, the Yeerks are never known for making good, small electronics; Ax says multiple times that the Andalite equivalent of such-and-such Yeerk technology is much better, smaller, faster, etc. (Then again, it's an Andalite speaking... I wonder how true his statements really are?)

[Aluminator (Kit)]

That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.

We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.

I agree, but the technology seems to be decent at recognizing what constitutes thought processes in sentient beings. Humans and Yeerks both have no trouble gaining the morphing ability, and it's probably safe to say that the brains of humans, Yeerks and Andalites are probably all fairly different. If the technology can recognize sentient brains and respond to alien thought processes that easily, it's not unreasonable to imagine that it could also recognize the brains and thought patterns of non-sentient beings, right down to, say, fleas and ****roaches. I know it's not really an explanation, but that's the best I've got for now

I reckon recognizing thought patterns/processes isn't that difficult (there's probably some sort of "signature", much like a computer virus can be identified by its "signature"), but recognizing the specific thought processes that are hooked to senses has to be much more difficult. Especially when you look at different senses and their different implementations (e.g. vision is very different in various animals: some creatures can see on the higher end of the color spectrum, some can see on the lower end of the color spectrum, and some can't even see at all), even recognizing the existence of all senses, let alone being able to tap into their full power, would be insanely difficult.

We're getting a pretty decent quote brick here Again, this might be simpler than you're making it. The technology doesn't necessarily have to zero in on every single sense- it may just zero in on the part of the brain that processes that information. *shrug*

One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?

I thought their timekeeping ability was natural, too... anyway, yeah, as for the translation chip... umm... I guess if the Andalites are capable of creating nanites capable of mapping out entire animals for use in later morphs, they'd probably be able to make a translation chip small enough that it would avoid interfering with a morph. The reason they couldn't morph flies at the time is that they had the big, clunky Yeerk chips in their brains.

I also remember reading that Andalites have a biological clock that adjusts to the planet they're on. I'm going with natural.
The traslator chip is Andalite tech, and as such is most likely made to morph with the carrier.

The Yeerks on the other hand are experimenting with animals while trying to discourage the Andalite Bandits. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to assume that the Yeerks made it so the chips weren't morph-compatible. It'd limit Andalite spies and also allow them to track the Andalites, should they become implanted... which they were

OK, that makes sense. Besides, the Yeerks are never known for making good, small electronics; Ax says multiple times that the Andalite equivalent of such-and-such Yeerk technology is much better, smaller, faster, etc. (Then again, it's an Andalite speaking... I wonder how true his statements really are?)

I really did get the impression (especially from the Hork-Bajir Chronicles) that the Yeerks had very little of their own in the way of new technology, and instead just adapted and improved on what they were able to obtain from other species. But, yeah, I guess most of the arguments in favor of that are Andalites, so who knows how much the Yeerks were able to advance on their own...

[A ghost you know]

We're getting a pretty decent quote brick here

Not anymore, I trimmed it a little.

Again, this might be simpler than you're making it. The technology doesn't necessarily have to zero in on every single sense- it may just zero in on the part of the brain that processes that information. *shrug*

Interesting possibility. Do you happen to know if the same brain parts process senses in all animals?

I really did get the impression (especially from the Hork-Bajir Chronicles) that the Yeerks had very little of their own in the way of new technology, and instead just adapted and improved on what they were able to obtain from other species. But, yeah, I guess most of the arguments in favor of that are Andalites, so who knows how much the Yeerks were able to advance on their own...

*shrug*
Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the Andalites. The Yeerks seemed to be content taking other species' weaponry, etc. and modifying it to suit themselves - the worst example of this is the Dracon beam, which is an Andalite shredder specifically modified to cause extreme pain. (Andalite shredders are designed to be painless)
However, since we never really get a Yeerk's viewpoint of the situation, it's certainly possible the Andalites are (as usual) trying to discredit other species' intelligence and development. Oh, the possibilities...

[AmberKatira]

Okay, I want to see if I can summarize the ideas that are *mostly* in favor at the moment.  It gets a little difficult to keep track of what has and has not been replaced with other theories.  Basically:

Morphing ability is acquired via a set of nanites that sentient beings obtain when they touch an escafil device.  These nanites sync with the host's mind and biological systems and recognize these as a sort of "ground state".

In acquiring a morph, the nanites collect much the same biological data as they have all collected from their host.  This would include memories (which are chemically imprinted on the brain), but as a host's morphing repertoire increases, it is likely that memories will need to be excluded in order to create more space.  It may be that memory pathways are prioritized by how often they are used.  Given the kind of biological data the nanites would be storing to morph the creature, picking up on the most-used pathways would be very easy.  Although sensory function does tend to correlate within the same/similar regions of the brain across many species, that would probably only be true (as a general rule) for the animals on earth.  Shared ancestor and all that.  Where these functions are located in the brain would not matter for the nanites in differentiating between different memories, what would matter is the chemical activity associated with them.  Basically high chemical activity = high importance pathway, and that's how the memories would be discriminated.

Morphing involves the nanites translating matter to and from Z-space in accordance with the biological data of whichever morph is initiated.  This would mean that the host's matter (and a good portion of their nanites) ends up in Z-space, even when morphing a larger animal.  The morphing process itself causes the nanites in the morphed body to give off a "morphing energy" signature that is uniquely recognized by other nanites synced with the same host.  This recognition across the Z-space temporal gap allows the host to demorph; however, the morphing energy signature disperses and becomes practically useless after ~2 hours.

So let me know if I'm misunderstanding something somewhere in there.

Getting back to the more debated points: the presence of animal minds in morph.  It seems pretty likely to me that the first time any of the animorphs morph something, the original animal mind is almost completely present without alterations.  Hence the few minutes it takes them to "get control" of their morphs.  The "getting control" part is probably direct intervention of the nanites in signaling processes (i.e. they would block signals in normal pathways like see human-run-hide that would interfere with what the animorph needed to do).  This probably takes a few minutes because the human mind needs to interpret the information it's receiving from the nanites and move them (or ask them to move themselves, really) accordingly.  It would be pretty easy to do in minds similar to their own, but harder in more unfamiliar territory.  It might even be that once the morpher has their nanites set in the correct configuration for control, that configuration is saved and implemented more quickly if that morph is ever reused.  It would also make sense if memories that go unused by the morpher are deleted to create more room for new morphs.

I have stuff I want to say about where the morpher's mind is during morphing, but maybe I'll do that later...

By the way, this is an awesome thread you guys!  Major kudos to everyone who's posted in here ^_^

Now to revive the thread....