About Andalite Tailfighting

[NickDaGriff]

General thread for talking about tail-based combat here.  I've got a few thoughts on the subject.

I wonder what the Andalites would think about tailblade modifications.  After all, a big mass of bone on the very end of a long limb is gonna get heavy.  With a weight balance like that, an Andalite's tail would basically handle, well, like an axe.  Since all the weight distribution is at the far end, a swing is going to have all its momentum on the outside of the striking arc.  That gives you tons of chopping and smashing power, but at the cost of maneuverability.  Changing direction mid-swing like you would with a sword would be tricky, if not near impossible.  You'll notice, if you ever see someone fighting with a tomahawk, mace, or similar weapon, they'll do a lot of twirling motions in order to conserve and redirect momentum at the same time, because those weapons rely on the heavy mass at the end.  It’s not very energy-efficient for the fighter, but there are always tradeoffs to any weapon.  However, I think such motions would be harder for an andalite.  It’s probably difficult to meaningfully twirl a weapon when the end of the haft is literally attached to your butt.  Estrid gets knocked totally off balance by her own tail’s weight in #38 when she spars with Ax.  Seems like if you swing your tail, better buy that swing an engagement ring, ‘cause you’re committed to it.

So I was thinking, what if an andalite were to lighten their tailblade?  This could be accomplished by drilling holes, carving in fullers, or other methods of removing material without sacrificing strength.  Granted, you wouldn’t want to remove too much, as it would be quite embarrassing if your tailblade were to shatter with the force of your strike.  It might take some getting used to with muscle memory and all, but a lighter blade would be quite agile, and far easier to whip around in a tailfight.

Thinking about it, I guess they shouldn't really have too much of a problem with it, seeing as any carving you might do on your blade would be healed the next time you morph.  Then again, there might be some lingering stigma along the lines of the whole vecol issue (why would you risk crippling yourself like that?), because the tailblade actually doesn't grow back with time like a giant fingernail (otherwise we would have seen Elfangor's getting unwieldably heavy in the Andalite Chronicles with the accelerated aging).  And we have seen that tail removal remains a humiliating form of punishment, even when it can be completely healed in minutes.  Still, tailfighting is an outdated concept that’s probably just relegated to sports anyway, so attitudes may have lightened on the issue.  I dunno.

[Chad32]

I don't think most andalite would be too keen on body modifications. They're a proud race, after all. Though honestly a bit of armor for the tail, or some way to lighten it, would really make a difference in fighting.

[NickDaGriff]

They are okay with neural implantation, though.  Every Andalite we've seen has had an implanted translator chip, and morphing technology itself is a pretty extreme body mod in multiple ways.

And there's another thing.  Armor.  We never see Andalites going around with any kind of protection, at all.  They are always naked even in combat situations.  Sometimes they have a utility belt, but otherwise, nothing.  They're a smart race, at some point someone had to have come up with the idea of wearable protection.  My current working theory is that they just can't come up with any way to stop a Dracon or Shredder blast, it's just that devastating.  Weapons tech has obsoleted their defensive tech, so now they just opt for maximum mobility.  And besides, Andalites have fur and are naturally claustrophobic, so outside of certain extreme conditions, clothing was probably never a necessity.  But I like to imagine that at some point in their history, there were Andalites going around with medieval-style armor.  Maybe I'll try to draw that. 

[RYTX]

The chip, I assume, is something tiny and internal, and morphing isn't an alteration of your body, permanently anyway, you just kinda have a new body for a while. I imagine one of the reason's nothlitism was frowned on was the idea that your body was your's. Be proud of, or at least deal with it as is.

I never think of Andalites as decorative. Though there's some interesting art of them with tribal tattoo's and piercing, it just seem off, at least given the Andalites we see, who's major since of aesthitic seems to be natural arrays, how the water and trees and crap interact on their own, not how you can fung-shu the crap out of it. Extrapolated that to their own bodies too.

On the tail stuff, I'd point out that Ax show's to be quite nimble with his tail. He executes it in a whip fashion, FWWAAP, FWWAAP, FWWAAP, repeated strikes and recoils, not a the kind of flowing motions you expect for hammers or axes in not-action movie combat. Plus his signature move with humans is knocking them out by twisting the blade, according to #33, at the last moment. Moving the thing never seems to be a problem. (It should, at least sense that things gotta be like 6 ft long on it's own).
The blade is sharp, imagine it's hard, but I don't know that it's heavy. idk, is enamel less dense then bone, because maybe it's not bone. Or at least not earth bone. I picture the weight being at the base of the tail, which tapers toward the tip, with a bit of weight tacked on by the blade, but the blade it self, I just don't see being as heavy as is intuative.

So that plus the culture stuff makes me think they won't tail modifications, but there we go.

[DinosaurNothlit]

Andalites would have probably evolved in ways that wouldn't force them to modify their tails to achieve maneuverability.  When you look at the ways Ax and other Andalites are described, their tails seem plenty swift and sure, no need for alteration to reduce the weight.

Come to think of it, the bone of the blade is probably hollow.  In any case, it definitely wouldn't be solid bone all the way through.  The only case in which animals ever have solid-bone structures outside their bodies, is if they are shed when they're done growing (as in the case of antlers).  Otherwise the structure will have no way to continuously grow, or to heal itself if damaged.  I can't imagine Andalites shedding their tail-blades (not when they consider it so dreadfully shameful not to have one), so the blade itself must, at the very least, have a blood supply.  And, if it already has to allow for cavities for blood-vessels, there's no reason to think it wouldn't have some kind of air-spaces as well, to lighten the weight.

Also, I've theorized before, in another thread somewhere, that Andalite 'bone' may not be the same substance as human bone.  Human bone is made of a mineral called apatite, which is a 5 on the Mohs hardness scale.  But, some creatures (mainly invertebrates, at least on earth) use quartz to construct their skeletons, and quartz has a hardness of 7.  If Andalite skeletons were quartz-based rather than apatite-based, it would give their tails a lot more cleaving power, perhaps allowing the blade to be thinner than we would think.  Not to mention that quartz is less dense than apatite, making the tail-blade lighter as well.

Finally, the muscles in their tails would be adapted to sudden changes in direction, much more so than a human limb would be.  The reason a human can't swing an axe effectively without committing to the direction of the swing, might have more to do with the fact that our arm muscles are generally built to utilize momentum, rather than counteract it.  When you try to throw something and then change your mind, stopping throwing it feels harder than it was to start the motion.  But it's the same amount of force applied either way, right?  It's just that our muscles aren't built for those directional changes.  But Andalite tail-muscles almost certainly would be, to give them the tail maneuverability that they'd need.  Inside an Andalite tail, my guess is that you'd probably see many series' of smaller muscles, rather than a singular large unit of muscle mass.  That way, they could change direction fairly easily, no matter how heavy their blades are (which, as I mentioned before, is probably not very heavy).

[NickDaGriff]

Well, morphing tech itself is absolutely a pretty radical mod for your base form, not just because of the capabilities it allows.  It permanently alters your cell structures, gives you an always-active link to Z-space, causes various strands of acquired DNA to be floating around in your system at any time, adjusts thoughtspeak functions, and so on.  As soon as you touch that cube, it changes you.  And the chip is something that ties in directly to important neural activity, downloading functions into your brain on demand.  While they have excellent military applications, there are so many inherent risks to both of these things, it's crazy.  There's a lot of social pressure in Andalite culture regarding being able to pull your own weight (see the discussion in the Ritual of Friendship/Trust/Kinship thread), so I was thinking anything that potentially jeopardizes that wouldn't really be too popular.

...Oh.  I think we just figured out why Andalites never used the morphing technology to a great extent, despite considering it their crowning scientific achievement.  Huh.

That is a good point about Andalite aesthetic.  Their designs really are very organic and natural.  That said, it could just be a cultural thing.  This is just my own speculation, but I think the current design values we see are based on a reaction to an ugly industrial age at some point in their history, causing them to go more eco-friendly and traditional with their tech.  If they're widespread across their own planet and others, I think it's entirely possible that some groups would have differing ideas on the matter, but who knows.

I do like that quartz theory.  Makes sense, considering we see tailblades chopping so easily through bone so often.  At the same time, throughout the series, andalite tailblades are repeatedly mentioned as being heavy.  Aldrea notes how much weightier Alloran’s tail is when she morphs him, Estrid actually knocks herself flat on the ground with the momentum behind her own strike (which wouldn’t happen if the balance was base-heavy rather than blade-heavy), and Tobias sinks his blade deep into a tree, which I doubt he could have done without some serious heft backing it up (I know for a fact how hard it is to split logs with a cheap lightweight tomahawk compared to a real axe; couldn’t get the blade more than 1/8” deep in the dense elm wood).  F=ma, yo. 

Also, the blade’s been described as feeling cool to the touch, which tells me it’s probably very mineral-dense and solid without many blood vessels going into it.  It might not have to regrow if it’s durable enough, although we don’t really know enough about Andalite physiology to say that it can’t regrow.  Maybe it’s like a big tooth?  Human tooth enamel is 96% minerals, and that can potentially last us for a whole lifetime even without proper care.  A tail might need occasional sharpening with use, but it’s probably not going to rot from lack of brushing, and how often is the average andalite really going to need to use it destructively anyway?  A broken or damaged tail probably isn’t going to be a super common problem, so there isn’t much need for it to be able to regrow.

I always saw the philosophy behind proper tail technique as being very decisive, and making your hits count, even if you can’t count on hits (kinda in line with the whole general Andalite mentality).  You can get your strikes chained together pretty fast with a bulky weapon if you know what you're doing, maybe even faster if it can flex like a whip.  But you have to know how to make it flow, because fighting the weapon's momentum with your own brute strength is inefficient and slows you down, no matter what kind of muscle you have.  Always fight the enemy, not yourself.  Blunt impact on a target can also help change direction for another strike, but that's not really something you should rely on (that’s how Estrid screwed herself up).  All that said, in a tailfight, your opponent is going to be striking back at you in exactly the same manner.  Trying to parry your opponent's attacks while finding opportunities for your own is quite different from just knocking out unsuspecting humans in a hit 'n' run manner.  Rotating the blade wouldn't be an issue, that's an easy twisting movement that takes no extra power (try it yourself with a hammer or axe, it's just all about timing).

DinosaurNothlit, I think what you’re talking about is actually inertia, not so much muscle structure.  Inertia will always be there, almost like it’s a law of physics or something.    You can find ways to overcome it or use it to your advantage, and andalites almost certainly do have a muscle structure built for the job, but directly fighting your own movements will always be less efficient than just making adjustments.  That's why so many martial arts rely on using your opponent's strength against them.  Also, in your example, when you start your throw, it’s easier because you’re putting your strength into a gradual acceleration across a long arc.  When you’re trying to stop it, you’re actually aiming for a more sudden change in acceleration near the end of your intended arc.  And when you can’t quite stop it as fast as you’d like, it feels harder, even though you’re exerting the same amount of force on the ball.  That’s just a psychological thing, not muscular.  If you’re swinging a weapon and can’t stop it in time, it’s going to make you feel sluggish, regardless of how easy it is to start the swing.  Human perception is weird and constantly skewed in little ways like that.

Andalites wouldn’t be forced to modify their tails to fight any more than we need brass knuckles to punch each other.  Of course, there would be distinct advantages, because evolution alone can't engineer for everything.  In any fight, speed is the most important factor between two fighters on equal ground.  Your weapon always needs to be in the right position at the right time, or else you’re as good as dead.  If you’re dueling another andalite, they’re going to try to make a lot of strikes to your vitals, naturally.  If your tail can’t keep up with theirs, you’re inevitably going to take a hit.  If you're able to move your blade faster than your opponent, then you have a clear step up over them and can better dictate the fight by forcing them to be more defensive.

On a side note, I had an idea: I’m going to see if I can try to figure out how to make a mod for Toribash with andalites, so we can see if tailfighting is even a practical concept.    For those who don’t know, Toribash is a cool little strategic, turn-based, physics simulating, free-to-play indie fighting game on Steam.  Basically, the game pauses, you decide which muscles you want to move on your character, and then the game plays out the action according to what you and your opponent choose to do, then pauses again, rinse and repeat.  There are hundreds or even thousands of community-made game modes and mods with different character builds, so making an andalite would be totally possible. 

[KingAlanI]

I think they're too proud, of their tails especially, to mess with their blades. Also, Andalite evolution and training gives them extensive ability to use the tail as is.

[grace.odiete]

Dieter grace

[Tim Bruening]

Can Andalite tails reach UNDER the body?

[Dylan]

Cassie Magic of course

Their tails are probably really flexible

[Tim Bruening]

Cassie Magic of course

Their tails are probably really flexible

I was thinking in terms of Ax morphing a flea, landing on Visser 3's underside, then demorphing and slicing V3 open as soon as his tail appeared.  Could that be done before V3's tail could reach underneath?