Can we blame Rachel?

[morfowt]

She kills Tom, then she dies.
Jake sees it all, with his own eyes.
The Blade Ship escapes,
the yeerks no longer enslave,
and Rachel is honored for being brave.

Poetic and righteous.

and in poem form. impressive.

[wotw2112]

I agree about the auxilary animorphs maybe going along, but alas, it was a suicide mission. No reason to kill more good guys than necessary.

As previously stated many times, it wasn't strictly a suicide mission.  Therefore there was no reason not to send and auxiliary or two (who ended up on the real suicide mission anyway).

You need to go and read all of the books again.  All of them.  Because, see, Rachel was never half as extreme as you're painting her to be.

Actually she was painted to be that extreme. Check out the opening sequence of MM4 Back to Before. Why the hell was Rachel roaring with crazy frenzy when the battle was over? Bleeding to death and acting like a mad woman? Simply because there were no more Hork-Bajir warriors to fight?

Actually she was painted very inconsistently.  Sometimes she was all raging and crazy, at other times she was completely rational and even insightful.

She is to blame because she should have seen that the mission was not necessary and that it was wrong to put herself in a suicide situation when she loved Tobias and knew he would be destroyed if she was killed. Its all her reckless behavior that got her into those bad situations.

Someone had to do it.  You can't blame her for doing what Jake asked so no one else would have to.

As I go back and reread the series over and over again, I am beginning to realize that the ending was perfect. I hated it at first, but I am now more knowledgeable in the series and understand now all the beautiful justice in it all.

Despite the poetry, I disagree.  It was just an excuse to kill someone off because the author couldn't figure out how to get her message across in a more appropriate way.  Sure there are casualties in war but if that was her point then characters should have been dying the entire series not just at the end.

[wolfev]

When I say insane I don't mean purely psychotic. She was crazy and war driven but throughout the series it was quite clear that though she had rational foresight to realize she was going into dangerous missions. That's why I blame her, she let herself get out of hand. She knew she was going on a suicide mission. The mission wasn't really necessary actually since the blade ship was really no direct threat to earth. Jake just had her destroy it because he was out for revenge against Tom's yeerk. I know Rachel would have thought this over but still did what she did because she couldn't help controlling herself when it came to violence. She wanted more and instead of saying to herself "enough" she chose a suicide mission. Have you all considered that you are just defending Rachel because you are biased towards her character. The girl was no saint. She was a very strong character at times aggressive and ruthless. She could be incredibly hateful especially for someone who herself was not directly affected by the war unlike Jake, Tobias, and Marco. One of her few redeeming characteristics was her loving Tobias and she proved that it was not equal to her love of battle because if she loved him more she would not have taken the mission. Rachel was killed almost for no reason other than that Jake wanted to take out Tom's yeerk. Remember that no one else in the group knew about Rachel's mission. Even though they knew nothing of it they expressed no concern over the blade ship for the most of the time. This shows that they knew there was no threat by the blade ship. Rachel could have easily seen this but chosen not to go on the blade ship if she thought the situation through and I think that she did.

[wotw2112]

She knew she was going on a suicide mission.

Again, it wasn't a suicide mission.  Not without the benefit of hindsight.

The mission wasn't really necessary actually since the blade ship was really no direct threat to earth. Jake just had her destroy it because he was out for revenge against Tom's yeerk.

Great point actually.  For some reason this never really occurred to me.  There was no reason to go after the bladeship (it's one ship!  they or the andalites could have gotten it later).  But this error in judgement lays at Jake's feet, not Rachel's.  Only made more pathetic by the fact that he wouldn't finish off this personal vendetta himself.

However, is Rachel blameless?  No.  You are right there.  It would have been interesting to see what Jake would have done if Rachel had refused...

[TheFearlessLeader]

Ok, I'll rephrase it. In MY opinion, it was a suicide mission. You send someone ALONE onto a Blade Ship to kill one of the higher ranking yeerks in the area, who will be surrounded by other hork-bajir and controllers with dracon beams, how is that NOT suicide? Even if you can bargain with them or whatever, they will kill her.

And I'm not arguing Rachel's characteristics. All I'm saying is if she is as wreckless as some posters here are making her seem, why would she ever turn down this mission?

And in terms of the ending being KA's way of killing someone off and sending a message...I don't care if KA herself says that that is what it was all about. I don't take it that way, it is my right as a member of the audience to take the ending however I want. And it certainly has nothing to do with KA or her wishes.

I can't even explain it in words. I just like the ending and the whole series much better now that I am 7 years older than I was when I read it originally. I still cried when I reread those final chapters. And I will the next time I do a reread as well. But this time, it was tears of joy and closure and not tears of agony and hatred.

But whatever, I'm not trying to argue with anyone.

[wolfev]

She was reckless but by choice. She could have thought it out and chosen it anyway or she could have chosen to be reckless and not thought anything over. The point is this was her choice that she ended up in her final situation. She had plenty of time in the series to see what she was becoming and stop it but in the end she chose that she was going to be reckless and put herself in danger.  And I'm not just blaming her aswell. Jake deserves a lot of the credit for killing Rachel. I wonder if there was more going on there than we thought. Maybe Jake was trying to kill Rachel because he thought she couldn't function in society.

[wotw2112]

Maybe Jake was trying to kill Rachel because he thought she couldn't function in society.

Maybe but that doesn't sound like Jake.  I think it's more likely that he just got distracted by his desire to kill Tom rather than letting him escape and didn't care what he had to sacrifice.

Ok, I'll rephrase it. In MY opinion, it was a suicide mission.

She was a backup plan.  Ideally she shouldn't have even had to be used (and likely they thought she wouldn't have been if not for Erik).  Therefore not a suicide mission.  It wasn't a situation where there was no way out.  It ended up becoming that but that is irrelevant to determining whether it was a suicide mission.  This has been discussed at length elsewhere.  If you're interested go find it.

And in terms of the ending being KA's way of killing someone off and sending a message...I don't care if KA herself says that that is what it was all about. I don't take it that way, it is my right as a member of the audience to take the ending however I want. And it certainly has nothing to do with KA or her wishes.

Uh, what?

[RYTX]

on the original question; it's here live. yes it sucks when someone takes loses their life, but if you decide that there is something worth your life, worth more than how it's cherished by others, it is yours to do away with. is it grim? yes, selfish? yes, totally within your rights? Yes

[TheFearlessLeader]

I'm not interested in bickering back and forth with you wotw. You can break down posts all you want and try to prove people wrong, not my style. BTW, it's Erek, not Erik......

[wotw2112]

I'm not "breaking down" i'm analyzing.  Isn't that the whole point of discussion?  Apparently not.  Sorry if raising objections to your points offends you but tough.  That's the whole point of a forum.

Thank you, however, for the correction.

[TheFearlessLeader]

People always have different opinions on what is a reason for doing something. I choose to use a forum as a way to see other people's opinions and to voice my own. I do not see it as a place to analyze other people's opinions and object to them. All that does is lead to bickering, rudeness, misunderstanding, condescension, and people "smiting" other people. The reason for that is the fact that many, many people feel emotionally strong about their opinions, and when challenged, either feel threatened, angry, or feel the need to respond in a way that makes the other person seem wrong.

If you choose to use the forum as a place to object other people's opinions, that is fine. I wouldn't think to tell you not to; however, I will not participate in the same actions. Sorry for any misunderstanding that may have occured through my posts..past or present.

[wotw2112]

Ok, not looking for a lecture.

The whole point of objecting (i.e. debating) is to find out why a person holds a certain belief.  If they give a good explanation it allows me to see why/how they are coming to certain conclusions.  This can subsequently point out errors in my own thought process (I've found more than a few in my days on RAF already).  Why bother thinking at all if your not willing to explore those thoughts and the process behind them? 

All that does is lead to bickering, rudeness, misunderstanding, condescension, and people "smiting" other people.

Not if you deal with people mature enough to stick to the subject and avoid personal attacks such as:

You can break down posts all you want and try to prove people wrong, not my style.

[XenomorphLV426]

Wow.

Jake killed Rachel on purpose because he thought she couldn't function in society after the war without killing people?  Um...

Ooo-kay.  Moving on.

I don't personally see it as a suicide mission, just an insanely dangerous one that Jake and Rachel felt had to be done.  It really wasn't any more dangerous than what the Animorphs group did on a weekly basis, only difference being that they couldn't go in as a group.  The others were needed elsewhere.

As for the point of Rachel's depiction as psycho-killer in the later books, you've got to remember that most of those were ghost-written.  Katherine herself had a very different way of writing her, with more subtlety and depth.  That came back through some of the inner monologue stuff and the Ellimist scene in the final books, but the ghostwriters either didn't have the chops to write her correctly, or just changed her on purpose to explore those themes of limitation and being pushed over the edge.

Through the MAJORITY of the series Rachel never went any further than the other kids except in situations that were absolutely understandable.  She wanted to kill Taylor after she'd almost tortured Tobias beyond saving.  She attacked that phalanx of Hork-Bajir head-on without a care in the world because she couldn't SEE in her bear morph and thought they were human.

Hell, if you want to get that far into this, CASSIE demanded that Fenestre be wasted in #16.  That's any different...how?

[Starsword]

I forget what war it was, but the military used blow up tanks and vehicles. A person would go under the tank and carry it in order to distract the enemy and force them to bomb the decoys. This is a suicide mission, undoubltedly, but it allowed for the greater mission to be completed. Jake asked her to go. If he asked someone else, and they got killed, would we ask the same question and call it selfish?

[wotw2112]

As for the point of Rachel's depiction as psycho-killer in the later books, you've got to remember that most of those were ghost-written.  Katherine herself had a very different way of writing her, with more subtlety and depth.  That came back through some of the inner monologue stuff and the Ellimist scene in the final books, but the ghostwriters either didn't have the chops to write her correctly, or just changed her on purpose to explore those themes of limitation and being pushed over the edge.

Through the MAJORITY of the series Rachel never went any further than the other kids except in situations that were absolutely understandable.  She wanted to kill Taylor after she'd almost tortured Tobias beyond saving.  She attacked that phalanx of Hork-Bajir head-on without a care in the world because she couldn't SEE in her bear morph and thought they were human.

Bravo.  Exactly what I wanted to say but so much more eloquent!