Group Re-Read: #50 The Ultimate

[Terenia]

Summary
Really big trouble is an understatement these days. The war between the Yeerks and the Animorphs is full on - and it's definitely going to get worse. But Cassie, the other Animoprhs, and Ax have a lot more going on than just trying to stay alive. Now they've got to actively protect their families and the free Hork Bajir. And they no longer believe they can do it alone. The Yeerks are just too powerful.

So Cassie and the others have to ask themselves a very important question: Is it time to increase their numbers? They all remember too well what happened with David - the Animorph gone bad. But this time do they really have a choice?

Questions
1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?

2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?

3.Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?

4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?

5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?

6. We see in this book that morphing fixes post-birth wounds (which we already knew) in the case of James, but does not seem to fix certain illnesses like cystic fibrosis. Any of the biology/technology geeks care to delve into the workings of the Escafil Device and take a guess as to why?

7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?


Anything else?

Next time: #51 The Absolute (NOW we get ducks! Yay!)

[Kotetsu1442]

Questions
1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?

I don't have tons to say here, but Jake's response is certainly more than reasonable, if anything it is unreasonable that he has stayed as in control as he has most of the series. He is now 16 years old and should be a lot more mature and experienced than he was as a 13 year old in ways that don't apply to a normal 16 year old; but to have your parents, the solid rock you've had to lean on your entire life, taken away from you certainly warrants a breakdown. With the others Anis however, I won't pretend that they are not still under pressures themselves but when they have a chance to draw on comfort in their parents that they haven't had before and know that now more than ever it is important for them to rally in support of their leader rather than break down into squabbles with him and each other. Their responses are reason from a normal teenager perspective, but not from what we've come to expect having seen their strength tested and grown so far.



2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?

Here, not so much a response that makes sense, even in light of the shock, hours or even a couple days makes sense; but I think that the way the ghost author and KA portray the response of adults takes the "Adults have lost their childhood imagination, so have trouble suspending their disbelief in new revelations to their reality where kids do it easily and quickly" trope too far. When the kids began debating the creation of auxiliary Animorphs they immediately rejected adults for this reason, using a premise that is usually only exaggerated this far for humor in media created for young children as serious and solid reasoning. It's not to say that there isn't some truth to this premise, but that it is exaggerated without the consideration that a child through general immaturity and considerably less experience in dealing with large lifestyle change is more of a risk to a freak-out to become un-useful/unreliable.



3.Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?

Sooner... very, very sooner.

From an in-story perspective the Anis should have started discussing the moment they had the cube; they were certainly horrified  by what happened with David but they also understood, at least intellectually that that problem wasn't the way it was always bound to happen and it was already becoming too clear that the Andalites couldn't be counted on to come to the rescue so "fighting a loosing battle to hold them off until the Calvary arrives" is no longer a viable option, it was a 'tooth and nail' fight and they had to be prepared to use their greatest weapon even if it took a lot of discussion before they could talk each other up to taking that leap.

From an author's perspective, the story lacks verisimilitude as it is; the premise is tons of fun with kids getting the power to turn into animals and it draws on the 'all on our own, against overwhelming odds' (which is usually part of the premise of kids vs. adults in children's books) to add suspense, but if when it became apparent that this series was going to be more than just a quick little fad; in needed to deal with the fact that it doesn't stand as is. It doesn't matter how many times they foil strategic advances and moves the Yeerks make, the brute force of the Yeerks Human Controllers bringing in their non-controlled acquaintances on a regular basis would have been an exponential growth in the number of Controllers that would have been unstoppable were there not plenty of others working in opposition all throughout the town. This needn't change the overall plots of the novels themselves (except getting the cube much sooner, perhaps even fleeing the construction site with it) but made the Anis be aware that outside of their group a trusted individual was creating other guerrilla sects to keep pressure on the Yeerks to keep from spreading through all activities. This wouldn't make winning the war an easy thing, but would make it make sense that the Yeerk numbers didn't spiral ridiculously out of control early on in the manner that an invasion of that nature would. (OK, I've obviously thought this through too much  )



4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?

One of the only stances KA was willing to take was the unfair treatment of handicapped (different-abled not disabled) people. Other than this and a few other specific things (i.e. racism) she (and by proxy her ghostwriters) preferred to bring up the ideas but leave any conclusion on the characters' part unresolved and ambiguous and let the readers reach their own conclusions. Because of this, I found the way the question of "is this humane" was brought up (with Cassie front-lining it of course) rather offensive. It was like when condescending Confederates wondered whether African Americans could even take care of themselves when set free because they were thought to be too simple minded or how macho husbands laughed at their wives' silly notions of suffrage that they talked about at their adorable little "women's meetings." That giving an 'able bodied person' the ability to morph and fight but worry that it would be inhumane to do to these poor handicapped people who've 'already suffered so much' is ignorant, arrogant, condescending and just plain wrong.



5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?

Some of their initial meeting of those characters set up a lot of great potential for great characters, and James is pretty cool; but there simply wasn't enough character development in the short amount of time that was left in the series to make a strong lasting impression. But along the lines of my thoughts in the previous question on the writer's treatment of the handicapped characters, especially taking into account James' strong righteous indignation at the Anis' prejudices, it was really sad that it said "Two other kids were also cured of their handicaps, they became James' lieutenants and leaders of the others," really lame.



6. We see in this book that morphing fixes post-birth wounds (which we already knew) in the case of James, but does not seem to fix certain illnesses like cystic fibrosis. Any of the biology/technology geeks care to delve into the workings of the Escafil Device and take a guess as to why?

Honestly, it isn't too likely have worked out like this. Given everything we know about how morphing plays a role in fixing problems with the original body (even removing Marco's rabies) this doesn't make a lot of sense. People with genetic disorders would be expected to still have them, but otherwise the auxiliaries should have started with a clean slate, free of birth defects or any health complications or accidents in their early life;l it seems like KA overestimates the amount of kids born with genetic disorders or doesn't quite understand the role of DNA in development. I call this only 'unlikely' rather than a KASU because it is still possible to assume that an unlikely high percentage of the kids who became auxiliary Anis happened to be those who suffered from genetic disorders.



7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?

I'll be brief about this one and allow others more room to expand on it because I know it is one that some feel strongly about. But I will say that even with her vaguely defined hopes turning out justified later working out for them, it was very wrong for her presume the right to make that decision. Restraining Jake 'for his own sake' was presumptuous enough when it was his decision to make, but instead of attempting to restrain Tom, which she acknowledged was entirely possible, deciding that she felt letting him go was the 'right thing to do' was preposterous. When it is later justified (I know I'm getting ahead of this book here) by Jake saying "You knew all along" and her "I hoped..." it was nothing but a pathetic attempt to save her as the 'good character with a message of faith and hope', because if that hope was a part of her and the results wasn't pure luck then she would have been suggested broadcasting offerings to the Taxxons and the YPM of letting them morph-to-freedom and keeping the technology under their control and supervision rather than that of an ambitious and ruthless Yeerk. As is, her decision lead to negotiating with Tom's Yeerk instead of just Arbron, a dance with the devil that cost the lives of two very important people in Jake's life, so much for deciding 'for the sake of protecting Jake'.

(Sorry, that's what passes for being brief for me)



Anything else?

Not at the moment, but I may have more to play off of others' thoughts.

[Gafrash]

To me, this book encapsulated desperate times, and it was Cassie giving voice to the Animorphs cry-for-help in the most desperate of manuevers.

1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?

Jake was still sour, and somewhat mourning, over the loss of his family. The war might as well have been over for him here. So I think his portrayal was legit.
The rest of the Anis I wasn't so sure.
Tobias and Ax could technically still remain in their usual 'homes'. But both were pretty much non-contributors to this situation.
Marco's was the one I thought was most unrealistic. Yes, he was over the moon about his parents' reuniting, but, the 3 of them have been living with the Hork-Bajirs for a significant time by now. And yet, Marco didn't seem to do much in terms of helping the other's adapt. So I wish he could have done something more to help the 'strategic retreat' situation than just play with a stick by the bench.
Rachel's was pretty realistic. She accepted the situation, and she may well have seen it coming, hence was more psychologically prepared. So she could focus more on helping her family come to terms with the new situation. A tough task, given her Naomi's constant resisting.  
And it was only Cassie, really, whom was trying to do something about it.

2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?

I think the fact that they were forced to relocate and virtually share a habitat together (with bark-eating aliens!), brought all this into focus. And it was important and realistic to have this book dedicated to this here.
I think the parents' reactions were realistic and in character, after all, they had not yet experienced the war scenarios first hand. All they had as proof were their kids turning to animals and a bunch of real aliens, but none of the brutalities of battles, or highly advanced Yeerk technology or Yeerks plopping out of their ears.

And, more to the point, they weren't the teenagers that the Anis (or even the handicapped kids) were! They couldn't as easily simply suspend disbelief. I thought this portrayal of them was very well done.
It's why wish Marco's parents (more specifically Eva) had gotten more involved to help them through this. Eva knew the stakes of this war better than none, and she had the age, that the Anis' didn't have, which was the only conventional thing that would voice reason to the likes of Naomi.

3.Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?

Seems all the Anis had were allies with tied hands or limited in some way. The Chee were literally stuck within their programming, The Ellimist was all powerful but contrived by the 'rules of the game', the Yeerk Peace Movement were seemingly inactive, and virtually forgotten, until the end of this story... And, conversely, though I could see a cool character like Mertil being used in this story, the Andalite wasn't morph capable. And his shorm Gafinillan was most likely in his death bed at this stage.

So it's hard to say WHEN would have been a good time to insert these guys.
I think because this is the FINAL MAJOR ARC, it's ideal and worthy of them to enter the series. The Animorphs were completely desperate and it was past the time for them to increase their forces. Later would have been too late.
I am glad KA finally did this here.

4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?

Man, the idea was troubling to me, at first, but you know what, the situation wasn't much different to the Anis when they began. The fact that they are handicapped in some way, doesn't exclude them from the human community. And Earth IS NOT the Andalite homeworld, where these people are exiled and virtually excluded from such matters.
They were THE safest option at the time... Though if Cassie was going to go ahead with her 'gambling' at the end there, they might as well have picked people they knew, or characters that weren't being used like Melissa Chapman...

5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?

I really liked James' leadership. There was so much of Jake in him, it's not funny.
But there is something that needs to be said about their choices of morphs. Can't recall the ones exactly, but there was a bunch of random zoo collective during their first trial, with him coaching them during Cassie's demand.

Also, anyone notice that everyone's morph (Rachel's grizzly, Marco's gorilla, Cassie's wolf and so on) all got repeated randomly through the non-major auxiliaries, but NO ONE picked Jake's tiger... What was with that?!?!

6. We see in this book that morphing fixes post-birth wounds (which we already knew) in the case of James, but does not seem to fix certain illnesses like cystic fibrosis. Any of the biology/technology geeks care to delve into the workings of the Escafil Device and take a guess as to why?

Would have to give this some deeper thought, but Prince Escafil would have made the invention strictly to making exact biological copies, whilst preserving the subject's mind during the morph. Hence why the post-birth wounds such as amputation and accidental paralysis are feasible. But someone who's born deaf, already contained the DNA circumstances that allowed for that. The morphing technology simply preserves the original state.

7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?

I want to state, that I LOVE THE CHARACTER, I really like Cassie, don't care what people say.
And I find it AMAZING how KA ALWAYS opts for it being CASSIE that ALWAYS makes these types of major innovative moves. Cassie has a catalog of these stunts!!! (Ref. to creating a bond with the Karen-Controller, to turning David nothlit, to erasing the presence of Visser Four's host body from the existence, to turn away from an experiment to wipe out free-will, to go after the machines by going after the Taxxons etc... the list goes on!!!!) And I just want to reiterate that this is one of the reasons why I enjoy the character so much.

And so we have HER here giving the idea of the handicapped recruitment AND the handing of the Morphing Cube.    
She definitely has a gifted superhuman foresight and it's definitely not highlighted more than here in The Ultimate.

Having said that, reverting back to the first time I read this book, I had such trouble accepting what she did!!!
 It was betrayal IN SO MANY LAYERS!   To Jake, to their cause, to Elfangor, to the Andalites. Left right and center.
It is REAAAAALLY hard to come to terms with what she did at the end of this story, it just didn't seem to fit, it was like turning an open cold can of coke upside down in the Sahara. Such a big and ambitious move, just leaves you wondering HOW LONG had she been thinking about this?!?!?

Re-reading it now, it's easy to see that, much like Jake's bad decisions in the previous book, it's nothing more than a plot device, that will ultimately redeem the character and make EVERYONE (including us readers) feel bad for criticizing her decision here. Too bad Tom would inevitably die at the end, but that's besides the point, isn't it?! And Rachel's death COULD BE attributed to this turning point here. At least indirectly.

Now, I HAVE TO SAY, though this was one of the bad cases of Ghostwriting for me (1-lined paragraphs, missed opportunities in the case of the auxiliaries' choice and performance of morphs), this scene in particular, was nicely executed. A c-o-m-p-l-e-t-e-l-y unexpected turn of events delivered fast and to the point in the last few pages.  

Though I understand how other people weren't satisfied by the very final scene either...
OH! COULD SOMEONE maybe post the alternative ending that KA had that went around... I think I read it here.

Anything else?

I just want to say that, I couldn't really picture the final battle scene with all the auxiliaries vs the Visser and his troops very cohesively. They were on a ramp, in a garage/hangar of a FACILITY FOR THE BLIND?!?!?!?! Then they were climbing hills and through the woods.
But I do recall being at the edge of my seat the moment Jake/tiger let out that whimper as the Visser was about to crack his windpipe with his thorny tentacles... This was one major battle. But because of Cassie, no one really felt like it was a win.

[LisaCharly]

Questions
1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?

This is a highly understandable response from him, even though it hurts the group. Jake's always been one of the most family-oriented of the Animorphs - recall back in #11 how he postpones a mission to watch TV with his family, skips researching a mission to be with his family in #16, and how he has much more difficulty behaving safely than Marco does in a similar situation in #31. He also has a big issue with guilt and responsibility. It makes sense that this would rock his world a bit, especially when it came partly from a bad decision of his.

The breakdown among the rest of the Animorphs also makes some sense. After all, their situations have changed irreparably. In many cases, they're taking on the role of the adult in their families, because they have the knowledge and experience to do so in the situation. Furthermore, many of their least desirable traits are being pushed more into the forefront by their families - Rachel's standoffishness and short temper are exacerbated by Naomi, Cassie's moralizing at the cost of efficiency is encouraged by her parents, Loren serves a constant reminder of Tobias' loneliness, and Marco's smugness is evident when his parents are the only ones who "get it". The Animorphs have personality clashes on the best of days, and this is not it. I think the thread of discord that winds through #50-#52 is fantastic, and makes their eventual teamwork at the end of #52 all the more moving.

2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?

It makes sense to me. The parents haven't seen any of the violence yet, besides Peter and Eva. They're probably estimating that it can't be that bad, since so far the Yeerks have been frustrated by the efforts of a teenager and his friends. Furthermore, they're dealing with a loss of control, which is a huge shift for a parent. Their kids have pretty much taken the director/protector/wise elder role from them, leaving all of them resorting to their most comforting base personal traits.

3.Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?

At any point before now, the Auxiliaries would have posed an additional threat - more people means a greater chance one could be captured and leak the secret of the Animorphs' identities. Their identities are now known and for the most part their immediate families are safe. Even if the Hork-Bajir valley is attacked, everyone in the area is preparing in case they need to evacuate again, whereas if the Animorphs were attacked at home before it would come as a shock to their families, and the Anis would all be separated from each other.

4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?

Personally, I don't believe there is exploitation in a consenting, honest agreement between rational adult individuals. The fact that these are kids muddies the water a bit, but I lean towards "giving them a proper chance to fight". It's true that being an Animorph is far from just fun and games - it's an immense psychological and physical burden. However, more than anyone, the Auxiliaries have the most to gain from it, not just mobility but also a connection to the outside world, which its implied they don't get much of.

That said, the argument about exploitation and creating new Animorphs is one of the most interesting in the series. There's no way to adequately describe what being an Animorph means to someone who isn't. There's just too much incomprehensible violence, fear and psychological decay. So if you can't explain that to someone and have them understand, is there the possibility of an honest, consensual agreement?

5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?

I loved the ones they really introduced us to, Kelly, Collette, Timmy and James. Especially Timmy. I'd have loved to see someone bringing in some high pop culture references to the Animorphs in the long run. I'm pretty sad that they never got followed up on. Unfortunately, a lot of plots and characters in the last few books never got a proper follow-up to their stories - Loren, Eva and Peter, and the Auxs, and I'm sure there are more.

7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?

Even though later she states that it was because of her hope for the Yeerk Peace Movement, I think the way it reads in the book is that she's just trying to save her boyfriend. Which is a deeply selfish reason to pretty much throw a massive weapon into the hands of the enemy, but it endears her to me. Because Cassie isn't always right. Sometimes she's lucky. In this case, she was selfishly trying to save Jake because she loved him, and it was ultimately the move of a young, loving human with faults and impulses. This scene, more than any scene in the late Cassie books, humanized her again to me. Because really, that's all Cassie is - a more thoughtful-than-average teenage girl in a strained relationship, trying to negotiate a confusing world of war where families kill each other.

Furthermore, many of the other Animorphs have made pretty big mistakes like that, some with bad consequences, some not. Marco ended up outing himself to Visser One, which (thankfully for them), never led to their discovery by the Earth-based forces. Jake impulsively attacked the blood bank and it led to their evacuation and his family's infestation. Rachel barged into the new Sharing Center and got Cassie captured, and managed to save the day. Sometimes it works for them. Sometimes it doesn't. Ultimately, this book just drove home to me that they're all just teenagers at the end of the day, sometimes struggling with the same selfish and stupid impulses as anyone else and the same dysfunctions.

[RYTX]

this soon; T I wasn't ready! kidding, good stuff

2) These is really the first time cassie's parent's p.o. ed me, that's unacceptable behavior and you think as care takers of animals they'd know that there are times you make do with imperfect accomedations: just crappy to me
Naomi, well I sympathize with, but where was she gonna go: I've made this point before, most of the ani's have well educated seemingly intelligent parents: but here the total lack of foresight and refusal to face reality- again tick me off.

3) Story wise I liked keeping our little six man dream team this long, strategy wise, like was said- you get the benefit of more hands, the risk of more people being captured: the untrusting person I am, I wouldn't have done it my self, but at the same time, safety in numbers.
Overall I'd say this was about the right time to do it: the six were finally pinned down, but still it was a gutsy move

4)Seriously I don't see why not. Aside for so unmorphed risk, which really everyone has, there was no reason why not: I don't like to coddle people for being "disabled" and like was said- it was their fight too

5) oh, James is awesome, took a while, but he got into so quickly, and I thought finally we have a counter part to Jake- not a follower, enemy or friend, or ally, but really someone to help him lead. About time too

6) No

7)*Sigh* A) I don't buy this later cop out "I had a feeling it would leave us the nothlit option" The way this book was written, she had no feeling about that what so ever: correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think she even mentioned aftran in this book, at least that could have been a transition to it somewhere, but no. b. f-ing s.
B)I was a horrible decision: Strategically stupid, morally selfish (which she admits) That it worked out does not make this a good decision it was an abhorrent move, and really it- i don't have words for it.  bleck

7)I thought it was stupid in the last fight for Jake to say, oh yeah they're always been lots of us.
The yeerks know your frigging houses by now, names they've never seen more than six of them at a time: common give your enemy a little credit.

[Kotetsu1442]

2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?

...

And, more to the point, they [the parents] weren't the teenagers that the Anis (or even the handicapped kids) were! They couldn't as easily simply suspend disbelief. I thought this portrayal of them was very well done.
...

See, I understand that point, but like I said in this question, I disagree because it is too exaggerated in these books in the way it is in little kids' shows. Yes there are certainly plenty of adults too stuck in their ways to beable to come to grips with changes this big, but that adults in general are this much worse than kids and teenagers gets taken too far; I thought the glances we got of the adults on the USS George Washington (#46, The Deception) was a lot more appropriate (yes, they were trained military personnel so you could argue that their keeping their composure and responding to the situation better was appropriate, but the structure of command had broken down and their world went just as crazy in an instant so I think it is a fair comparison).

4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?

Man, the idea was troubling to me, at first, but you know what, the situation wasn't much different to the Anis when they began. The fact that they are handicapped in some way, doesn't exclude them from the human community. And Earth IS NOT the Andalite homeworld, where these people are exiled and virtually excluded from such matters.
They were THE safest option at the time... Though if Cassie was going to go ahead with her 'gambling' at the end there, they might as well have picked people they knew, or characters that weren't being used like Melissa Chapman...

This just reminded me of your discussion yesterday on Reflective equilibrium in the Philosophy thread (which I to to get around to replying to today, I have to get out and do some running around this afternoon so things might get unexpectedly busier than usual); this case initially troubled you but in examining it alongside your general principles you gradually shifted your views until you reached an understanding and viewpoint that didn't cause cognitive dissonance. I think that an inability/unwillingness to examine her various attitudes, sense of justice and general principles is why Cassie spends so much time 'feeling uncomfortable' with issues and ends up with moral qualms that don't make sense with her world-view. I think that problem is what lead me to my above rant in response to this question, about how ignorant it really is to hold views like this 'inhumane' indefinitely without realizing how insulting it is that you are not treating the handicapped as human beings.

4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?

Personally, I don't believe there is exploitation in a consenting, honest agreement between rational adult individuals. The fact that these are kids muddies the water a bit, but I lean towards "giving them a proper chance to fight". It's true that being an Animorph is far from just fun and games - it's an immense psychological and physical burden. However, more than anyone, the Auxiliaries have the most to gain from it, not just mobility but also a connection to the outside world, which its implied they don't get much of.

That said, the argument about exploitation and creating new Animorphs is one of the most interesting in the series. There's no way to adequately describe what being an Animorph means to someone who isn't. There's just too much incomprehensible violence, fear and psychological decay. So if you can't explain that to someone and have them understand, is there the possibility of an honest, consensual agreement?

Good thoughts here. I didn't make it clear in my first post, but my reaction to the author's treatment of the handicapped. The question of whether someone could ever comprehend what it was they were being offered and getting involved in is a fair one; there are many in the medical profession who hate the idea of 'informed consent' because they believe that no person who is not in the medical profession is capable of truly understanding the implications of a situation well enough for their consent to be truly 'informed'. Asking whether the could really inform the auxiliary Anis of what they were getting into and give them a choice before-hand is a fair question, though you have to agree that like a risky surgery it is sometimes necessary to help them make that decision without them being fully informed on it because it is in their best interests to do so if all is lost if they don't; my indignation was merely at the way the author treated the decision as if it was much worse because the ones they chose were handicapped.

7)*Sigh* A) I don't buy this later cop out "I had a feeling it would leave us the nothlit option" The way this book was written, she had no feeling about that what so ever: correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think she even mentioned aftran in this book, at least that could have been a transition to it somewhere, but no. b. f-ing s.
B)I was a horrible decision: Strategically stupid, morally selfish (which she admits) That it worked out does not make this a good decision it was an abhorrent move, and really it- i don't have words for it.  bleck

Yeah, the justification in the later books was entirely a retroactive cop-out. If she was making the decision as a 'hopeful intuition' of it bringing about a peaceful solution as KA treats it later on then she would have at least justified it to herself at this point instead of just saying "I felt like it was the right thing to do," at this point she was just justifying a selfish action to keep it from 'destroying her boyfriend', why not let her be more human and keep that as the reason instead of pretending it was a superhuman insight later?

And I think the sentiment that she got lucky because it worked out is still giving her too much credit; it is only true that it worked out in that she didn't completely loose the war for them but had she not made that decision it could have gone much better in terms of avoiding the hundreds (thousands) of lives lost in the final battle (including the two very important characters at the beginning of #54).

[Gafrash]

...Yeah, the justification in the later books was entirely a retroactive cop-out. If she was making the decision as a 'hopeful intuition' of it bringing about a peaceful solution as KA treats it later on then she would have at least justified it to herself at this point instead of just saying "I felt like it was the right thing to do," at this point she was just justifying a selfish action to keep it from 'destroying her boyfriend', why not let her be more human and keep that as the reason instead of pretending it was a superhuman insight later?

And I think the sentiment that she got lucky because it worked out is still giving her too much credit; it is only true that it worked out in that she didn't completely loose the war for them but had she not made that decision it could have gone much better in terms of avoiding the hundreds (thousands) of lives lost in the final battle (including the two very important characters at the beginning of #54).

...The breakdown among the rest of the Animorphs also makes some sense. After all, their situations have changed irreparably. In many cases, they're taking on the role of the adult in their families, because they have the knowledge and experience to do so in the situation. Furthermore, many of their least desirable traits are being pushed more into the forefront by their families - Rachel's standoffishness and short temper are exacerbated by Naomi, Cassie's moralizing at the cost of efficiency is encouraged by her parents, Loren serves a constant reminder of Tobias' loneliness, and Marco's smugness is evident when his parents are the only ones who "get it". The Animorphs have personality clashes on the best of days, and this is not it. I think the thread of discord that winds through #50-#52 is fantastic, and makes their eventual teamwork at the end of #52 all the more moving.

Totally agree with this. I like how you point out so many psychological things that people miss, LisaCharly.

And, Oh em Gee! Loren, I forgot about Loren!!!

...Yes there are certainly plenty of adults too stuck in their ways to beable to come to grips with changes this big, but that adults in general are this much worse than kids and teenagers gets taken too far; I thought the glances we got of the adults on the USS George Washington (#46, The Deception) was a lot more appropriate (yes, they were trained military personnel so you could argue that their keeping their composure and responding to the situation better was appropriate, but the structure of command had broken down and their world went just as crazy in an instant so I think it is a fair comparison).

In this case, it's quite easier to see the parents as more of mainstream civilians. They weren't Star Wars fanatics or warfare experts, from what we know. So the factor of their professions made their reactions plausible, in my mind. So we get the successful lawyer being ever the opposing. The vets caring for the aliens' welfare, like they would care for an animal's welfare. In time, they WOULD realize that this was a war. But the opportunity hadn't yet been shown here. This is THE FIRST BOOK after the big move.

...I have to get out and do some running around this afternoon so things might get unexpectedly busier than usual); this case initially troubled you but in examining it alongside your general principles you gradually shifted your views until you reached an understanding and viewpoint that didn't cause cognitive dissonance...

WTF?!?!?!?!?! Didn't realize I was being psyched... 

...7)I thought it was stupid in the last fight for Jake to say, oh yeah they're always been lots of us.
The yeerks know your frigging houses by now, names they've never seen more than six of them at a time: common give your enemy a little credit.

See, I liked this, dude. I thought good on Jake, still about throwing the enemy off. And during that sequence, especially after Cassie's statement that for the first time during this war, their numbers looked even/fair, I had high hopes for the Anis finally turning the fight against the Visser.
The Yeerks may have uncovered their civilian identities, such as family trees, addresses and such, but not of their lives as Anis, since that wasn't in the open.



On a side note, it's been said that the morph the Visser used in this final battle scene was that of that plant creature from the Hork-Bajir Homeworld. The same one that he used in #11: The Forgotten.
But the morph had eyes and was meant to be more squid-like in this... so I am not fully sold. 

[Kotetsu1442]

...I have to get out and do some running around this afternoon so things might get unexpectedly busier than usual); this case initially troubled you but in examining it alongside your general principles you gradually shifted your views until you reached an understanding and viewpoint that didn't cause cognitive dissonance...

WTF?!?!?!?!?! Didn't realize I was being psyched... 

Oops, my bad, somehow completely mistook you for Gotchaye, don't know how I managed that. None the less, assuming that this fairly reflects your thought process on this subject at least on some level, going from uncomfortable to comfortable; then it isn't a bad example of reaching reflective equilibrium  .

[LisaCharly]

Good thoughts here. I didn't make it clear in my first post, but my reaction to the author's treatment of the handicapped. The question of whether someone could ever comprehend what it was they were being offered and getting involved in is a fair one; there are many in the medical profession who hate the idea of 'informed consent' because they believe that no person who is not in the medical profession is capable of truly understanding the implications of a situation well enough for their consent to be truly 'informed'. Asking whether the could really inform the auxiliary Anis of what they were getting into and give them a choice before-hand is a fair question, though you have to agree that like a risky surgery it is sometimes necessary to help them make that decision without them being fully informed on it because it is in their best interests to do so if all is lost if they don't; my indignation was merely at the way the author treated the decision as if it was much worse because the ones they chose were handicapped.

I believe I lot of the mainstream take on exploitation is the idea of "an offer you can't refuse". For example, people support the work-safety regulations because they argue that an employee can't refuse to work for an employer even if the job is dangerous, or believe prostitution is inherently exploitative because the money is too valued to refuse it; I disagree with this, but I understand the thought process

The idea that given the morphing power to handicapped kids is exploitative is two-fold: 1) you can't really describe the burden of being an Animorph, so the agreement might be inherently dishonest and 2) the chance at mobility might qualify as an offer too good to refuse, that the handicapped kids really would not be able to turn down. I disagree with this as well, but it clarifies why people are offended by the use of handicapped kids and see it as exploitative. But I too find it paternalistic - why wouldn't James and co. be able to refuse? Just because something being offered is really tempting, just because it's a once-in-a-lifetime chance, doesn't mean it can't be refused.

So it goes back to my only potential problem with it, informed consent, which would be the same whether James and co. were able-bodied or not. I'm incredibly surprised that the issue of informed consent only comes up when paired with the supposed "offer you can't refuse", just like I was surprised when it was Cassie, of all people, who suggested making more Animorphs in #20.

Sorry for the babble, I just find this topic extremely interesting in the series.

[SuperBlue]

1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?

Jake’s little breakdown was definitely justifiable. Think about it, the kid just lost his family, the reason he was not only fighting this war but LEADING the fight in the first place. I thought it was very unwise for the Anis to let him in on missions until they were absolutely sure his emotions were in check because it was very obvious he wasn’t the same Jake that’s lead them into battle for the past 3 years.

2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?

Rachel’s mom definitely won the “dumb b*tch” of the year award. It was made VERY clear to her and all the other parents what was going on. I can get that what they’ve heard is hard to believe but after seeing proof, like their kids turning into animals, all of them should have known that their kids obviously knew what they were talking about and if they wanted to stay alive, they needed to listen to everything they were told to do. But nooo, Ms. Independent Xena Momma wanted to be difficult and thought she could just go ahead and run away, when the only thing awaiting her if she succeeded was fresh Yeerk in her head

3. Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?

They probably should have done it sooner but after the whole David thing, they were probably a bit scared, I know I would be. Plus I don’t think they were willing to just take some random kids and completely shatter their reality by dropping the whole “Yeah, you’ve just been drafted into a war on alien slugs that could very well be your friends and family” bomb. Unless of course they drafted homeless kids with nothing to lose, I just don’t think they’d be able to live with themselves if they intentionally ruined the lives of other children like how their lives had become ruined by entering this war.

4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?

I NEVER would have guessed to use disabled kids had I been in the Anis’ position. I guess it was nice to give them a chance to escape their handicapped bodies for two hours at a time but when you think about what happens to the Auxiliaries at the end of the series, it’s plain to see that those kids really were just being taken advantage of.

5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?

They didn’t live long enough to make an impression on me.

6. We see in this book that morphing fixes post-birth wounds (which we already knew) in the case of James, but does not seem to fix certain illnesses like cystic fibrosis. Any of the biology/technology geeks care to delve into the workings of the Escafil Device and take a guess as to why?

Well, if they were born with those disabilities than it was part of their DNA, unlike an injury. Therefore, no amount of healing could cure them

7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?

I really like Cassie as a character and as much as I want to defend her, I just can’t bring myself to help her out after making such a stupid mistake. Granted, it ends up helping them in the future, but it was just soooo incredibly dumb! And Jake was just as stupid for thinking of killing Tom before thinking of subduing him! Jake was a freakin Tiger with a wolf sidekick! I’m sure both, or even one, of them could have stopped Tom without killing him. I love Cassie to death but she thought that decision through about as much as Jake was thinking things through in this book

[RYTX]

something that came to me the other day that I don't understand now: in the book prior the yeerks id'ed the ani's by using blood samples and came up with these kids.
Suddenly, a dozen more appear, get bloodied up and HOW IS IT THERE WAS NOT ANOTHER BLOOD SAMPLE TAKEN TO ID THIS NEW GROUP?!
Plothole, yes?

[SuperBlue]

At this point I don't think it mattered. The Yeerks had all they needed. Thier five main problems had been identified and all they needed to do was find them or a family member out in the open

[Chad32]

Well they did figure out where the Anis were getting new recruits. They set up a trap at the blindness institute, which led to the battle where they got the box.

[RYTX]

but they let the auxilaries live in their home unaccosted. Really, that's just inexcusably bad evil villiany

[SuperBlue]

Well Visser Three is in charge of everything now so are you really that surprised they made stupid mistakes