1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?
2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?
3.Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?
4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?
5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?
6. We see in this book that morphing fixes post-birth wounds (which we already knew) in the case of James, but does not seem to fix certain illnesses like cystic fibrosis. Any of the biology/technology geeks care to delve into the workings of the Escafil Device and take a guess as to why?
7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?
Anything else?
Questions
1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?
2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?
3.Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?
4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?
5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?
7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?
See, I understand that point, but like I said in this question, I disagree because it is too exaggerated in these books in the way it is in little kids' shows. Yes there are certainly plenty of adults too stuck in their ways to beable to come to grips with changes this big, but that adults in general are this much worse than kids and teenagers gets taken too far; I thought the glances we got of the adults on the USS George Washington (#46, The Deception) was a lot more appropriate (yes, they were trained military personnel so you could argue that their keeping their composure and responding to the situation better was appropriate, but the structure of command had broken down and their world went just as crazy in an instant so I think it is a fair comparison).2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?
...
And, more to the point, they [the parents] weren't the teenagers that the Anis (or even the handicapped kids) were! They couldn't as easily simply suspend disbelief. I thought this portrayal of them was very well done.
...
This just reminded me of your discussion yesterday on Reflective equilibrium in the Philosophy thread (which I to to get around to replying to today, I have to get out and do some running around this afternoon so things might get unexpectedly busier than usual); this case initially troubled you but in examining it alongside your general principles you gradually shifted your views until you reached an understanding and viewpoint that didn't cause cognitive dissonance. I think that an inability/unwillingness to examine her various attitudes, sense of justice and general principles is why Cassie spends so much time 'feeling uncomfortable' with issues and ends up with moral qualms that don't make sense with her world-view. I think that problem is what lead me to my above rant in response to this question, about how ignorant it really is to hold views like this 'inhumane' indefinitely without realizing how insulting it is that you are not treating the handicapped as human beings.4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?
Man, the idea was troubling to me, at first, but you know what, the situation wasn't much different to the Anis when they began. The fact that they are handicapped in some way, doesn't exclude them from the human community. And Earth IS NOT the Andalite homeworld, where these people are exiled and virtually excluded from such matters.
They were THE safest option at the time... Though if Cassie was going to go ahead with her 'gambling' at the end there, they might as well have picked people they knew, or characters that weren't being used like Melissa Chapman...
Good thoughts here. I didn't make it clear in my first post, but my reaction to the author's treatment of the handicapped. The question of whether someone could ever comprehend what it was they were being offered and getting involved in is a fair one; there are many in the medical profession who hate the idea of 'informed consent' because they believe that no person who is not in the medical profession is capable of truly understanding the implications of a situation well enough for their consent to be truly 'informed'. Asking whether the could really inform the auxiliary Anis of what they were getting into and give them a choice before-hand is a fair question, though you have to agree that like a risky surgery it is sometimes necessary to help them make that decision without them being fully informed on it because it is in their best interests to do so if all is lost if they don't; my indignation was merely at the way the author treated the decision as if it was much worse because the ones they chose were handicapped.Quote4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?
Personally, I don't believe there is exploitation in a consenting, honest agreement between rational adult individuals. The fact that these are kids muddies the water a bit, but I lean towards "giving them a proper chance to fight". It's true that being an Animorph is far from just fun and games - it's an immense psychological and physical burden. However, more than anyone, the Auxiliaries have the most to gain from it, not just mobility but also a connection to the outside world, which its implied they don't get much of.
That said, the argument about exploitation and creating new Animorphs is one of the most interesting in the series. There's no way to adequately describe what being an Animorph means to someone who isn't. There's just too much incomprehensible violence, fear and psychological decay. So if you can't explain that to someone and have them understand, is there the possibility of an honest, consensual agreement?
7)*Sigh* A) I don't buy this later cop out "I had a feeling it would leave us the nothlit option" The way this book was written, she had no feeling about that what so ever: correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think she even mentioned aftran in this book, at least that could have been a transition to it somewhere, but no. b. f-ing s.Yeah, the justification in the later books was entirely a retroactive cop-out. If she was making the decision as a 'hopeful intuition' of it bringing about a peaceful solution as KA treats it later on then she would have at least justified it to herself at this point instead of just saying "I felt like it was the right thing to do," at this point she was just justifying a selfish action to keep it from 'destroying her boyfriend', why not let her be more human and keep that as the reason instead of pretending it was a superhuman insight later?
B)I was a horrible decision: Strategically stupid, morally selfish (which she admits) That it worked out does not make this a good decision it was an abhorrent move, and really it- i don't have words for it. bleck
...Yeah, the justification in the later books was entirely a retroactive cop-out. If she was making the decision as a 'hopeful intuition' of it bringing about a peaceful solution as KA treats it later on then she would have at least justified it to herself at this point instead of just saying "I felt like it was the right thing to do," at this point she was just justifying a selfish action to keep it from 'destroying her boyfriend', why not let her be more human and keep that as the reason instead of pretending it was a superhuman insight later?
And I think the sentiment that she got lucky because it worked out is still giving her too much credit; it is only true that it worked out in that she didn't completely loose the war for them but had she not made that decision it could have gone much better in terms of avoiding the hundreds (thousands) of lives lost in the final battle (including the two very important characters at the beginning of #54).
...The breakdown among the rest of the Animorphs also makes some sense. After all, their situations have changed irreparably. In many cases, they're taking on the role of the adult in their families, because they have the knowledge and experience to do so in the situation. Furthermore, many of their least desirable traits are being pushed more into the forefront by their families - Rachel's standoffishness and short temper are exacerbated by Naomi, Cassie's moralizing at the cost of efficiency is encouraged by her parents, Loren serves a constant reminder of Tobias' loneliness, and Marco's smugness is evident when his parents are the only ones who "get it". The Animorphs have personality clashes on the best of days, and this is not it. I think the thread of discord that winds through #50-#52 is fantastic, and makes their eventual teamwork at the end of #52 all the more moving.Totally agree with this. I like how you point out so many psychological things that people miss, LisaCharly.
...Yes there are certainly plenty of adults too stuck in their ways to beable to come to grips with changes this big, but that adults in general are this much worse than kids and teenagers gets taken too far; I thought the glances we got of the adults on the USS George Washington (#46, The Deception) was a lot more appropriate (yes, they were trained military personnel so you could argue that their keeping their composure and responding to the situation better was appropriate, but the structure of command had broken down and their world went just as crazy in an instant so I think it is a fair comparison).In this case, it's quite easier to see the parents as more of mainstream civilians. They weren't Star Wars fanatics or warfare experts, from what we know. So the factor of their professions made their reactions plausible, in my mind. So we get the successful lawyer being ever the opposing. The vets caring for the aliens' welfare, like they would care for an animal's welfare. In time, they WOULD realize that this was a war. But the opportunity hadn't yet been shown here. This is THE FIRST BOOK after the big move.
...I have to get out and do some running around this afternoon so things might get unexpectedly busier than usual); this case initially troubled you but in examining it alongside your general principles you gradually shifted your views until you reached an understanding and viewpoint that didn't cause cognitive dissonance...WTF?!?!?!?!?! Didn't realize I was being psyched... :rofl2:
...7)I thought it was stupid in the last fight for Jake to say, oh yeah they're always been lots of us.See, I liked this, dude. I thought good on Jake, still about throwing the enemy off. And during that sequence, especially after Cassie's statement that for the first time during this war, their numbers looked even/fair, I had high hopes for the Anis finally turning the fight against the Visser.
The yeerks know your frigging houses by now, names they've never seen more than six of them at a time: common give your enemy a little credit. ::)
Oops, my bad, somehow completely mistook you for Gotchaye, don't know how I managed that. None the less, assuming that this fairly reflects your thought process on this subject at least on some level, going from uncomfortable to comfortable; then it isn't a bad example of reaching reflective equilibrium :)....I have to get out and do some running around this afternoon so things might get unexpectedly busier than usual); this case initially troubled you but in examining it alongside your general principles you gradually shifted your views until you reached an understanding and viewpoint that didn't cause cognitive dissonance...WTF?!?!?!?!?! Didn't realize I was being psyched... :rofl2:
Good thoughts here. I didn't make it clear in my first post, but my reaction to the author's treatment of the handicapped. The question of whether someone could ever comprehend what it was they were being offered and getting involved in is a fair one; there are many in the medical profession who hate the idea of 'informed consent' because they believe that no person who is not in the medical profession is capable of truly understanding the implications of a situation well enough for their consent to be truly 'informed'. Asking whether the could really inform the auxiliary Anis of what they were getting into and give them a choice before-hand is a fair question, though you have to agree that like a risky surgery it is sometimes necessary to help them make that decision without them being fully informed on it because it is in their best interests to do so if all is lost if they don't; my indignation was merely at the way the author treated the decision as if it was much worse because the ones they chose were handicapped.
1. Cassie makes a number of observations about the break down of the Animorphs as they adjust to their lives as refuges. Primarily, she focuses on Jake and how the loss of his family has clearly broken his ability to lead. Given what we know about Jake, and what we have seen of him throughout the series, do you think this is a reasonable response? What about the breakdown amongst the rest of the Animorphs?
2. We see the most that we ever will of life within the refugee camp in this book, primarily the reactions of the parents that were rescued in the previous book. With the exception of Marco's parents, none of them seem to be taking it too well. Rachel's mom keeps trying to escape and Cassie's parents are overly concerned with the ethics involved. No one seems to be accepting that it is a war. Do you think that this response makes sense, even in light of having seen real live aliens (not to mention your kid turn into a bug)?
3. Is this an appropriate time to introduce auxilary Animorphs, or should they have done so sooner/later?
4. What do you think about their methodology of using handicapped children? Is it humane? Are they taking advantage of them or giving them a proper chance to fight?
5. Did any particular auxilary leave a lasting impression on you? What do you think about James' team of 17 as a whole?
6. We see in this book that morphing fixes post-birth wounds (which we already knew) in the case of James, but does not seem to fix certain illnesses like cystic fibrosis. Any of the biology/technology geeks care to delve into the workings of the Escafil Device and take a guess as to why?
7. Cassie's decision. What are your thoughts about her decision to let Tom go with the morphing cube?