Author Topic: Why no fantasy morphs?  (Read 5869 times)

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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 02:58:51 PM »
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Because it would mean creating a situation where they meet these creatures, and as a general rule you can't jump genres from science fiction to fantasy.  High technology and magic just don't mix.
So no, in my opinion it would make no sense whatsoever.


 ???

Have you never read anything by Joan D. Vinge? Neil Gaiman? Garth Nix? Neil Shusterman?
Ursula K. LeGuin?
Isaac Bloody Asimov???

Sci-Fi and Fantasy are among the most frequently crossed genres in the publishing industry!!
(I should know; I've read most of it.)


Anyway, it might have been plausible if they invented a collective Time Matrix-built universe, but ONLY then.

Only Gaiman, and everything I've read by him has fallen distinctly into the 'fantasy' category. I am aware of the works of Asimov, but was not aware of any magical creatures in his books.
Science fiction is a bit of a woolly term anyway, since any book with aliens and spaceships is branded science fiction despite often having little or no scientific basis. By this logic fantasy is a more appropriate term, the morphing technology for example may as well be magic as it is given no basis in science. I think the term Sci-fi/ fantasy is used a lot for that reason

Although to clarify my original point I meant that science fiction (as in aliens and spaceships) and fantasy (magic, wizards, unicorns etc) do not mix, especially when you have a series that was based in a world of alien races and high technology.
To suddenly have phoenixes and unicorns (creatures with magical powers) turn up would be to suddenly say 'magic is real'.

Hopefully that has clarified my point and hasn't dug me into an even deeper hole.
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Offline Duff

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 03:04:55 PM »
Because it would mean creating a situation where they meet these creatures, and as a general rule you can't jump genres from science fiction to fantasy.  High technology and magic just don't mix.
So no, in my opinion it would make no sense whatsoever.

Theres actually a section in book stores called science fiction/fantasty...and thats where animorphs was haha

but i see your point, the stereotypical versions of the two genres have no place together lol i mean dinosaurs were a bit of a stretch and they are real lol

Offline zaprowsdower

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 03:15:00 PM »
Quote
Because it would mean creating a situation where they meet these creatures, and as a general rule you can't jump genres from science fiction to fantasy.  High technology and magic just don't mix.
So no, in my opinion it would make no sense whatsoever.


 ???

Have you never read anything by Joan D. Vinge? Neil Gaiman? Garth Nix? Neil Shusterman?
Ursula K. LeGuin?
Isaac Bloody Asimov???

Sci-Fi and Fantasy are among the most frequently crossed genres in the publishing industry!!
(I should know; I've read most of it.)


Anyway, it might have been plausible if they invented a collective Time Matrix-built universe, but ONLY then.

Only Gaiman, and everything I've read by him has fallen distinctly into the 'fantasy' category. I am aware of the works of Asimov, but was not aware of any magical creatures in his books.
Science fiction is a bit of a woolly term anyway, since any book with aliens and spaceships is branded science fiction despite often having little or no scientific basis. By this logic fantasy is a more appropriate term, the morphing technology for example may as well be magic as it is given no basis in science. I think the term Sci-fi/ fantasy is used a lot for that reason

Although to clarify my original point I meant that science fiction (as in aliens and spaceships) and fantasy (magic, wizards, unicorns etc) do not mix, especially when you have a series that was based in a world of alien races and high technology.
To suddenly have phoenixes and unicorns (creatures with magical powers) turn up would be to suddenly say 'magic is real'.

Hopefully that has clarified my point and hasn't dug me into an even deeper hole.
To go on further, we need to cover the concepts of "low sci-fi/fantasy" and "high sci-fi fantasy".
Let's say what Wikipedia has to say about this-

High fantasy, or epic fantasy, is a subgenre of fantasy fiction that is set in invented or parallel worlds. Built upon the platform of a diverse body of works in the already very popular fantasy genre, high fantasy came to fruition through the work of authors such as C. S. Lewis and, foremost, J. R. R. Tolkien, whose major fantasy works were published in the 1950s. While it is far from being the oldest fantasy subgenre, high fantasy, along with sword and sorcery, has become one of the two genres most commonly associated with the general term fantasy.

Hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by an emphasis on scientific or technical detail, or on scientific accuracy, or on both.[1][2] The term was first used in print in 1957 by P. Schuyler Miller in a review of John W. Campbell, Jr.'s Islands of Space in Astounding Science Fiction.[3][4][5] The complementary term soft science fiction (formed by analogy to "hard science fiction"[6]) first appeared in the late 1970s as a way of describing science fiction in which science is not featured, or violates the scientific understanding at the time of writing.

The term sometimes also contrasts the "hardness" of the sciences used in the story: the "hard" sciences are quantitative or material-based disciplines, such as physics, chemistry, biology, and astronomy; while the more "soft" sciences are social sciences, such as sociology, anthropology, or psychology. Stories featuring engineering tend to be categorized as hard SF, although technically engineering is not a science. Neither term is part of a rigorous taxonomy — instead they are rule-of-thumb ways of characterizing stories that reviewers and commentators have found useful. The categorization "hard SF" represents a position on a scale from "softer" to "harder", not a binary classification.

Low fantasy is an umbrella term, describing various works within different sub-genres of fantasy, to contrast specific works with high fantasy. Though a very vague term, features that may indicate low fantasy downplaying of epic or dramatic aspects; includes de-emphasising magic; real-world settings; favoring of realism, cynical storytelling; and dark fantasy. The archetypal example of low fantasy would be a story taking place in a quasi-historical setting where the protagonists lack a clear moral initiative and might be haunted or driven by a dark past or character flaw, and where conventional fantasy elements such as magic, elves, or dwarves are lacking or are absent.

There are many arguments about what constitutes the line between Low and High fantasy, but invariably in High Fantasy there is a moral dichotomy of altruistic good and unredeemable evil, and in low fantasy there are many shades of gray, where the "main character" is often an anti-hero. For instance, immoral elves or mercenary dwarves could commonly appear in a low fantasy tale, but rarely in high fantasy.

The Lord of the Rings is seen as the quintessential high fantasy tale that all others either emulate or studiously avoid, and so elves and dwarves and a commonality of magic are seen as the hallmarks of High Fantasy, but in truth it is the stark black and white separation of good and evil that locks it into the "High Fantasy" realm. Shadowrun, and the lore behind Shadowbane, are both examples of fantasy that includes elves and dwarves, in a setting without a clear good/evil dichotomy. Many of the White Wolf role-playing games would also be considered low fantasy, while including magic and/or "fantastical" races and themes because of the moral ambiguity of the setting. Additionally, Star Wars lacks typical High Fantasy races and has a sci-fi setting, yet maintains the High Fantasy good v. evil theme.

The Sword and Sorcery genre is the the style of fantasy writing most associated with Low Fantasy.

Soft science fiction, or soft SF, like its complementary opposite hard science fiction, is a descriptive term that points to the role and nature of the science content in a science fiction story. The term first appeared in the late 1970s and early 1980s and indicated SF based not on engineering or the "hard" sciences (for example, physics, astronomy, or chemistry) but on the "soft" sciences, and especially the social sciences (anthropology, sociology, psychology, political science, and so on).[1] Another sense is SF that is more concerned with character, society, or other speculative ideas and themes that are not centrally tied to scientific or engineering speculations. A third sense is SF that is less rigorous in its application of scientific ideas, for example allowing faster-than-light space travel in a setting that otherwise follows more conservative standards.

A fantasy morph MM5 would work with low fantasy/soft sci-fi; Animorphs already is pretty much soft scif-fi.
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Offline AniDragon

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2008, 03:27:03 PM »
Frolis maneuver.

 :-[ Oops. That was quite the typo, wasn't it?
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Offline Estelore

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 04:04:15 PM »
*sigh* You know it's a weird flippin' day when people start trying to define my own favorite literary genres to ME, of all people.

For pity's sake, I AM science-fiction and fantasy, although, of course, I have absolutely no intentions of explaining what I mean by that. ;)

Gaiman has written quite a lot of cross-genre stuff.
Asimov has written quite a lot of stuff, in general. I've been reading Asimov all my life, and I've not come CLOSE to reading everything he's written, but a lot of it has fantasy in it.

John, if you really want to take it down to thematical elements, make a thread for it and I'll debate with you 'til kindom come.
Otherwise, let's all stick with the main topic, please.

Thanks. :)
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Offline zaprowsdower

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2008, 04:18:28 PM »
Uhm, that was for the benefit of everyone...
and...HUH ??????
I'm not trying to debate anyone or anything, I didn't know what I posted was even debatable :( ???.
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Offline Estelore

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2008, 04:24:14 PM »
Anything literary is debatable. Always. :)
That's what allows us to continue to find new insight in old works.

Oh, I know it was for everyone. We still ought to get back to the main topic, though.
I'm sorry if my words came off sounding hostile (which appears to be the interpretation).
I didn't mean them in that way, at all. Vocal tone is not so easily conveyed over the net, y'know.
:) Sorry, if I left anyone with ruffled feathers.
The universe is, instant by instant, re-created anew. There is, in truth, no Past, only a memory of the Past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. The only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2008, 04:35:32 PM »
Similar, but distinct. I'll admit there have been a few cases of the 2 mixing, most notably the comic book universe and the X-files, but generally speaking its one or the other. I still feel it would be wrong for magical creaures to just turn up the the Animorphs world.

Fantasy and sci-fi are hardly distinct.

With the very fact that the Ellimist and Crayak exist, it's possible for similarly fantastic beings to exist. Dragons, unicorns, gryphons, and even phoenixes can be explained through scientific terms as extinct/alien species, as has been done several times before in science fiction. There are also several pieces of sci-fi that had fantasy elements, such as the Apprentice Adept by Piers Anthony.

Basically you shouldn't go talking about things you don't know about.

Edit: read this fic. It's a oneshot,and they don't actually morph fantasy creature, but it works.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 04:40:36 PM by Walkaway Girl »

Offline Shock

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2008, 04:42:12 PM »
I know I've had a few thoughts about fantasy creatures. I mean, a lot of them are combinations of two different creatures, right? So, using the frollic manuever(sp?) thingy, they could sort of figure it out.

Like, mixing bat DNA with lizard DNA, you get a mini dragon! Or mix a Nartec with a dolphin, you'd get merfolk.

doesn't work that way. namly the thing works by juggling genes in the same species. different indviuial but same species.

Cannibals are seriously messed up
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Offline ~

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2008, 04:45:26 PM »
I know I've had a few thoughts about fantasy creatures. I mean, a lot of them are combinations of two different creatures, right? So, using the frollic manuever(sp?) thingy, they could sort of figure it out.

Like, mixing bat DNA with lizard DNA, you get a mini dragon! Or mix a Nartec with a dolphin, you'd get merfolk.

doesn't work that way. namly the thing works by juggling genes in the same species. different indviuial but same species.



A talented estreen with enough knowledge of biology could easily balance the species involved to create a stable morph.

Just saying.

Offline Shock

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2008, 04:57:18 PM »
I know I've had a few thoughts about fantasy creatures. I mean, a lot of them are combinations of two different creatures, right? So, using the frollic manuever(sp?) thingy, they could sort of figure it out.

Like, mixing bat DNA with lizard DNA, you get a mini dragon! Or mix a Nartec with a dolphin, you'd get merfolk.

doesn't work that way. namly the thing works by juggling genes in the same species. different indviuial but same species.




A talented estreen with enough knowledge of biology could easily balance the species involved to create a stable morph.

Just saying.

not quite.. the only reason why Cassie is the concentration she had and only then it last for only a few mins.

the concentration require for such a thing to even keep it for an hour would be like giving birth to an elephant over and over again pulled it off.

if this is the method of creation for a appernce such as this, these morphs would Never be stable. as soon as the morpher slips or passes out, the morph continues to change to the shape that best suits it.

as for knowalge of biology to create a ceature to morph.. only the Arn knew how to do that and their dead. Arn are to biology as the Andalites are to Physics and in realtiy, all that morphing is just Z-space physics at work.

Cannibals are seriously messed up
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[17:05:27] Reiyn: Shock's tact and diplomacy is unparalleled.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information. For in his heart, he dreams himself your master
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So sorry to get you into writing. What a horrible thing to inflict on you. Should have just sold you crack.

Offline AniDragon

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 06:07:44 PM »
I think once the morph is completed, they wouldn't have to keep concentrating on it. And once they have it figured out, it won't be as hard the next time.

Take a look at Ax's human morph. He only had to mix the DNA once. After that, it stayed the same every time he morphed it.

I'd think that Cassie could do it, actually. She knows enough about animals and their biology, and is a talented morpher. She might be able to do something simple.

And it's not only same-species. Remember when Marco was doing it by accident?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 06:50:30 PM »
Ok, time to take a step back. My first argument was badly thought out, I'll admit that, and I seem to just get worse and worse trying to justify it. Time to start again, ignore everything else I have said on this topic.
I've been going around in circles trying to come up with a coherent argument for this. In the end I just don't want to see fantasy creatures in the Animoprphs universe. If they did then they would take away the mythology and try and 'explain' them and without the mythological basis I just don't see the point. And if they didn't then you would have to have to start introducing magic, and I can't see that working either.
That's my opinion, it may not make sense, but it's how I feel. I'm not saying I'm right, just an opinion.
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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 07:38:36 PM »
And it's a perfectly valid one, it was your 'Sci-fi and Fantasy can't mix' argument that wasn't.

Offline Kagebutterfly

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Re: Why no fantasy morphs?
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 08:37:27 PM »
if ya'll wanted fantasy animals, just look at many of the prehistoric mammals or fish and other creatures that live in the deep, deep dark side of the ocean floor.