Author Topic: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited  (Read 4003 times)

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Offline Chad32

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2009, 08:32:10 AM »
We're pretty obviously not alone in the universe, but we'll never come into contact with anything sentient.  At least not until we're advanced enough and stupid enough to go looking.

Nothing that has technology advanced enough to travel lightyears is going to be dumb enough to make contact with us.

Why would it be stupid to want to make contact with other planets?


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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2009, 12:18:14 PM »
Maybe they will enslave us

Offline Chad32

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2009, 01:25:56 PM »
Or maybe they will give us some of their technology, and then we'll turn on them, and they'll swear off giving technology to anyone else ever again. And the only way to beat us is if they break that very law. Hey, I think I've heard of that kind of plotline somewhere before.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 02:53:25 PM by Chad28 »


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Offline anijen21

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2009, 02:39:29 PM »
or maybe they're all part of a galactic federation that agreed not to communicate with races that hadn't achieved warp flight yet.

THERE'S ALL SORTS OF POSSIBILITIES
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Offline AlothAssassin

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2009, 05:50:46 PM »
Why would it be stupid to want to make contact with other planets?

I didn't say that.  Not from our perspective.

Rather, other higher forms of intelligence would know not to make contact with us.  The very first thing we'd do to an unknown entity is brand it as hostile and either capture it, try to put it in controlled conditions to further our own knowledge, or simply kill it.

Didn't you see Men In Black?   :o   :P

People aren't ready for aliens.  Seriously, little grey guy with a big fat head and skinny body walks down a ramp of a flying saucer, all "Hai!  'Tsup gais?"  he gets a big messy hole blown in him and then carted back to an underground laboratory.
"Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!" - The Swedish Chef.

“He is very wise man and very strong - although perhaps not so strong as his father Barbara.  Tough guy!" - Borat, on President Bush.

Offline anijen21

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2009, 06:45:33 PM »
I didn't say that.  Not from our perspective.

Rather, other higher forms of intelligence would know not to make contact with us.  The very first thing we'd do to an unknown entity is brand it as hostile and either capture it, try to put it in controlled conditions to further our own knowledge, or simply kill it.

Didn't you see Men In Black?   :o   :P

People aren't ready for aliens.  Seriously, little grey guy with a big fat head and skinny body walks down a ramp of a flying saucer, all "Hai!  'Tsup gais?"  he gets a big messy hole blown in him and then carted back to an underground laboratory.

I think that's rather cynical
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Offline AlothAssassin

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2009, 07:37:45 PM »
Cynical's pretty much a synonym for practical.  So I guess you're right.
"Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!" - The Swedish Chef.

“He is very wise man and very strong - although perhaps not so strong as his father Barbara.  Tough guy!" - Borat, on President Bush.

Offline ThinkAgain

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2009, 07:51:03 PM »
Cynical's pretty much a synonym for practical.

I am going to use this quote in the future, thanks.

Still, I agree. If I was a super-advanced alien, I'd want to observe humans, but I wouldn't introduce myself until the right circumstances arise. As a people, we're a little bit hostile, you have to admit.

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Offline anijen21

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 08:19:12 PM »
Cynical's pretty much a synonym for practical.  So I guess you're right.

that is what a cynic would say

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a healthy amount of skepticism and preparation, but I think we're lonely and imaginative enough to give aliens a chance. We've already sent out the Arecibo message, we've got a lot of real scientists working for SETI, and though it's low on our list of economic priorities since there's a lot of home-grown problems need solving, we do spend money on it. I think there are enough people like us in the world, who are hopefully open-minded and diplomatic enough to respond positively to some extra-terrestrial visitors. Do you really think we'd spend so much time hypothesizing about it in fiction if we weren't actively preparing, or at least wondering what it would be like?
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Offline AlothAssassin

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2009, 08:32:00 PM »
People can dream to fulfil that need of escapism, of something more, of meaning.  That's fine.

But the reality would be an entirely different scenario.  I don't believe there are alien craft/dead ET's at Area 51 (the evidence is insubstantial), but absolutely, if they've made contact so far, that's what would happen.  Captured, contained, killed if necessary, and locked int black-ops files until we have a significant understanding and control over them.

I love that quote in the Animorphs books about Ax talking about humans have "fought thousands of wars, my race a mere handful" or something like that.

When you think about it, humans are basically supreme killers.  We may not have the technology of anyone who could make it here from another world, but we're damn sure likely to rival or surpass them in terms of conflict experience.  That whole "know your enemy" philosophy that EVERY government in the world abides by currently would dictate that any extra-terrestrial envoy would need to be immediately contained.

If at all possible to shoot one down, we would.  Humanity as a whole, not idealistic dreamers.  I'd be curious for answers, sure, but the powers that be would too.  They'd want answers without risk, answers in a carefully controlled environment without repercussion.
"Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!" - The Swedish Chef.

“He is very wise man and very strong - although perhaps not so strong as his father Barbara.  Tough guy!" - Borat, on President Bush.

Offline anijen21

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2009, 08:52:44 PM »
If at all possible to shoot one down, we would.  Humanity as a whole, not idealistic dreamers.  I'd be curious for answers, sure, but the powers that be would too.  They'd want answers without risk, answers in a carefully controlled environment without repercussion.

I disagree.

I think you're far too quick to lump all of humanity into one category. Just like most sci-fi is. You're right, a lot of sci-fi and fiction in general is escapism, catharsis, a lot of nasty psychological needs that go unfulfilled otherwise. But do you really not think there is not a substantial enough portion of humanity that would be disgusted by the idea of their governments destroying any alien visitors?

At worst, I can envision a Cold War-type scenario, where they are loath to give us motive and information, we are loath to trust them, and they kind of just sit in orbit until some diplomatic solution can be reached or all-out war is attained. But I think any race who is as vibrantly different as our own, has had to cope with differing opinions throughout history, and has survived despite those disagreements and arguments that may or may not have evolved into all-our war, would have the patience and diplomatic ability to communicate with us.

Also, where are you getting this "combat experience" thing? If aliens are real, I have a feeling they'd be very unlike anything we could imagine or expect, so other than the Cold War scenario, the worst thing would be that we simply can't communicate with them at all.

But I guess my point is, you forget that the powers-at-be are elected, in most of the first world countries, by the people they lead, and I generally believe people long to understand, belong, and learn. Yeah, we'd be scared ****less at first, but I think humanity has proven, time and time again, that it can overcome fear in search of something greater.
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Offline AlothAssassin

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2009, 10:53:50 PM »
You think that black-ops military factions worry about what the electorate thinks, when the scenario is a complete unknown?  Of course not.  If there were a confirmed, visible UFO showing up on military sensors, they'd attempt to take it down.

It only becomes a public issue if the public becomes aware of it.  

As for humanity overcoming fear, we only ever overcome fear once we have a workable understanding of something.  When it's no longer an unknown.  

I guess what I'm saying is, we adapt.  We adapt quickly.  But our first instinct is always to shoot first ask questions later.  Always, it's been proven time and time again.  Whether it's an experimental Russian jet or clever hoax of some kind or a UFO over military-jurisdiction airspace, it would be blasted.

Whether it was successful or not I guess would depend on whatever the hell the aliens are, our stuff may not even do anything against it.  But we'd sure as hell try.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 12:05:52 AM by AlothAssassin »
"Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!" - The Swedish Chef.

“He is very wise man and very strong - although perhaps not so strong as his father Barbara.  Tough guy!" - Borat, on President Bush.

Offline anijen21

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 11:13:37 PM »
I guess what I'm saying is, we adapt.  We adapt quickly.  But our first instinct is always to shoot first ask questions later.  Always, it's been proven time and time again.  Whether it's an experimental Russian jet or clever hoax of some kind or a or a UFO over military-jurisdiction airspace, it would be blasted.

I really don't think that's the case. More people went outside to view Sputnik in wonder than to run away and hide. The urge to fight and flee are always there, don't get me wrong, and a great number of people would succumb to them, but I don't believe humans indiscriminately destroy what cannot be understood. I think you're really overgeneralizing. And as far as some black ops military unit--we're living in a 24-hour news cycle where any putz with a camera phone can record video. Do you really expect me to believe that the government, our government, that still has not uncovered a terrorist vein hiding under rocks with machetes, could execute a conspiracy to effectively conceal and destroy an alien invasion?

We're smarter, with more investigative tools at our disposal than ever before. And we are still a vastly curious, interrogative race. The government may order a cover-up, but I can't believe that it would work, if for the fact that there would be at least one curious sci-fi nerd in the Pentagon or wherever that couldn't stand for a secret like that covered up.
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Offline AlothAssassin

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2009, 12:11:18 AM »
Uhm.  The government can, and does, cover things up pretty damn completely.  I don't believe they actually do have alien craft at Area 51, but could they without anyone finding out?

Of-freaking-course they could.

As for an all-out invasion, no, something like that obviously couldn't be kept a secret.  But if it came to all-out invasion, the point's moot anyway, as everything would be martial law by then anyway and the fact that the government is fighting it wouldn't have to be concealed.

But a crashed ship?  Could a crashed ship or dead alien body be obtained without any public knowledge?  Erm, a big yes.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:39:25 PM by AlothAssassin »
"Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!" - The Swedish Chef.

“He is very wise man and very strong - although perhaps not so strong as his father Barbara.  Tough guy!" - Borat, on President Bush.

Offline anijen21

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Re: Ellimist Chronicles Revisited
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2009, 03:20:55 PM »
I still think you're looking at this too narrow-mindedly. If an alien race really wanted to stop by and say hello, do you really think they'd send ONE transport with ONE diplomat that couldn't outlast our firepower?

idk I think I'm having trouble explaining myself. Of course the government covers things up. But I think even those intentions are good. I don't believe human inherently destroy new things. I think our curiosity and compassion far outweigh our fear, and maybe even self-preservation. At least on a snap instinct like that.
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