Richard's Animorphs Forum

Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Tiana on July 28, 2008, 07:07:53 PM

Title: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 28, 2008, 07:07:53 PM
Sorry if this has been brought up (I skimmed several pages and didn't see the topic).

***spoilers for those who didn't read #53 and #54***


Anyways, does anyone really dislike Jake's decision to have Rachel kill Tom? I know Rachel tried to explain it in #54, when she says that she's not technologically smart or valuable in that way as Ax, who Jake can't risk. But that also leaves Marco(who sees from point A to Z), Cassie(who sees the bigger picture), Tobias or one of the Auxilaries. Is it because Jake doesn't want to lose his best friend or his love?

I just thought it was harsh for him to ask Rachel to kill her own relative. Even if she's braver than the rest, having to kill your cousin is just.....wrong. Why not pick someone who's not related to Tom?

What are your thoughts :) Thanks!
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: ThermalRider on July 28, 2008, 08:00:44 PM
I don't think that Cassie could have done it. She would have had too much internal struggle and moralizing to kill Jake's brother.

Marco is a possibility though.

I think that Jake probably wanted the most destructive person there though, since they would be alone against a fair number of morph-capable Yeerks. And no one fits that better that Rachel.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Nomad Frog on July 28, 2008, 08:27:27 PM
what about Tobias?  I think he could've done it, easily...but that's me.

Anywho...of course I don't like the order he gave to Rachel, or the effect it had, rather.  If he'd played the hand a little differently, though, we wouldn't have so much to discuss about the series.  XD
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Qwerty the Charliecorn on July 28, 2008, 09:20:09 PM
Cassie definitely wouldn't have been able to do it. Marco? Maybe. But when it came down to it, down to killing Tom, I think he would have hesitated. And even a moment's hesitation is enough to get you killed. That's why Jake made that decision. Rachel was best for the job.

Of course, I still didn't like the result.  :'(
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Chad32 on July 28, 2008, 09:46:47 PM
I didn't like the idea of Rachel killing Tom, or Rachel dying, especially since it really didn't have to end that way. I do understand that there had to be a backup plan incase Tom's Yeerk backstabbed them. Which he did.

Also I think part of Rachel being there was to prevent the Yeerks from escaping with the blade ship and escafil device. They got away anyway, though, mainly because of Eric.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 28, 2008, 10:09:25 PM
I don't think that Cassie could have done it. She would have had too much internal struggle and moralizing to kill Jake's brother.

Marco is a possibility though.

I think that Jake probably wanted the most destructive person there though, since they would be alone against a fair number of morph-capable Yeerks. And no one fits that better that Rachel.

I agree with what you said about Cassie.

However, despite Rachel being all gungho etc, I think she (and any person) would have just as much trouble killing Tom because he's related to her.

You'd think Jake would want the best fighter there, so even though Rachel's fighting is very violent, at times she can get out of control and her style is not the "smartest". Wouldn't he want someone more strategic in that sense? Or I suppose that doesn't matter because Jake, Rachel and we all know it's a suicide mission.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: zaprowsdower on July 28, 2008, 10:11:00 PM
Nobody likes it, but that's the way it is. :P
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: morfowt on July 28, 2008, 10:13:13 PM
I liked it. there's my thoughts. three words. yeah I don't have a very big thought.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 28, 2008, 10:14:41 PM
Nobody likes it, but that's the way it is. :P

lol very true. I just felt like Rachel got the short end of the stick. (and a part of me deep down thinks Jake was being selfish, but that's just me ;) )
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Kelly on July 29, 2008, 01:53:44 AM
Well Rachel was known for her bravery..it wouldnt have really fit to have someone else do it with her standing there and watching on screen.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Liz on July 29, 2008, 01:58:13 AM
Well Rachel was known for her bravery..it wouldnt have really fit to have someone else do it with her standing there and watching on screen.

Agreed.  If she found out Jake had asked someone else to do it, she would probably have done it herself anyway.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 29, 2008, 01:34:40 PM
Two concerns:

1. Why was she sent alone (especially considering all the auxilaries)?  Maybe there is a legit reason for this...it's been a while.

2. After all the ridiculous situations they get themselves out of why does one of the main characters suddenly have to die because it's the end of the series?  It just kinda cheapened the ending (like a cheesy tv series that kills off a character at the end of a season to get people to watch the season opener)
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Qwerty the Charliecorn on July 29, 2008, 02:10:17 PM
You know? I never really thought of it that way. Sure, death is a natural part of life, and people die every day, and people die in wars, but it is kind of strange that she died at the end, after all the crazy things they'd already done. Perhaps in was only a matter of time...
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 29, 2008, 02:18:35 PM
Haha!  I made a good point!  ;D  I don't suck!

...next time I just have to be more dignified about it...
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Chad32 on July 29, 2008, 02:28:48 PM
Two concerns:

1. Why was she sent alone (especially considering all the auxilaries)?  Maybe there is a legit reason for this...it's been a while.

2. After all the ridiculous situations they get themselves out of why does one of the main characters suddenly have to die because it's the end of the series?  It just kinda cheapened the ending (like a cheesy tv series that kills off a character at the end of a season to get people to watch the season opener)
I think sending a few with Rachel would have been safer than sending them all to die with the other troops.

It does suck that she died, especially since she didn't even have to. KA forced her to die unnecessarily to make the ending more tragic than it had to be.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 29, 2008, 03:13:25 PM
Well Rachel was known for her bravery..it wouldnt have really fit to have someone else do it with her standing there and watching on screen.

Agreed.  If she found out Jake had asked someone else to do it, she would probably have done it herself anyway.

True, Rachel did say that in book #54.

I just find it hard to believe that she would be so willing to die, even if this is Rachel we're talking about lol. As she was dying, didn't she say that she was already missing her life and she wanted so much to live?

I thought it was harsh of Jake to "sentence" her to death like that anyhow.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: filmstu2005 on July 30, 2008, 04:13:16 AM
Which is why I thought that entire book was so anti-climatic. Sorry, i dont care what anyone says or argues. The last book was Sh**ty. The plot was all over the place, there was no definite story, there was no real ending. Just forced thoughts action. No one but Rachel and Jake were in character, Jake for falling to despair once again. If you have a problem with my theory, thats ur problem alone.

The story just fell short. I feel that Jake was a huge coward for not going after Tom himself. It was his brother. It was Jake who kept wondering for the entire series if it was his own brother he'd have to destroy. Wouldn't it have been more exciting if Jake fought Tom face to face himself? Didn't Jake used to have that dream, like he mentioned in Book 6 The Capture, that he was a tiger stalking Tom in the forest, and when Tom turned around suddenly it was Jake who was the prey instead. Wouldnt that have been a much better analogy brought to life to finish off the series?

Well, whats done is done. And that is a good point someone made. Why send Rachel by herself? Its not like they didnt have the Auxillaries to help her out. She didnt have to do it alone. Rachel against an entire ship of Yeerks? Come on now. Thats a bit harsh and a horrible move if you were playing chess.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Vivi9087 on July 30, 2008, 09:42:54 AM
One thing to remember though, at the very end she really only wanted to know that she mattered in the war effort. 
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 30, 2008, 11:13:57 AM
Jake couldnt do it himself cause he was vital to the mission on the pool ship

and sending a few auxilaries, you could make the argument that jake didnt know any of them well enough to ask something like that of them, and he needed jason to lead the team so he couldnt do it and asking him to pick someone could have made him pull them all out of the mission or something and blow everything. Basically the auxiliaries werent ready to deal with something that extreme, and jake telling them about it could compromise everything

but in the end, its more poetic that she went alone

and she was just backup, jake hoped to be able to disable the ship and not need her, it wasnt a 100% suicide mission
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Starsword on July 30, 2008, 12:01:29 PM
I thought it was pretty bold, and downright awesome that Applegates killed off arguably the most liked character, it really tested the reader as much as the character. How would the reader respond? Of course, we know the result of what everyone thinks, but it was also the most believable situation.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: RYTX on July 30, 2008, 12:05:19 PM
The whole morality of the family vs family thing i don't think should be an issue. Yeah it sucks, but I don't think Tom and Rachel were ever that close; I doubt she and Jake where that close before the war.
Someone was needed to stop the blade ship, and probably take down some folks in the process: Ax; needed for the pool ship codes, Marco maybe but he would be more likely to resist that type of mission; Cassie, hell to the no, Tobias, again maybe but it wouldn't be as effective.
This was a smash and grab job, and she was best suited for it.
Even though the result just sucked :(
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: filmstu2005 on July 30, 2008, 03:14:23 PM
Jake couldnt do it himself cause he was vital to the mission on the pool ship

and sending a few auxilaries, you could make the argument that jake didnt know any of them well enough to ask something like that of them, and he needed jason to lead the team so he couldnt do it and asking him to pick someone could have made him pull them all out of the mission or something and blow everything. Basically the auxiliaries werent ready to deal with something that extreme, and jake telling them about it could compromise everything

but in the end, its more poetic that she went alone

and she was just backup, jake hoped to be able to disable the ship and not need her, it wasnt a 100% suicide mission

Wasnt it Jake who also said that very night, "before the night is over the casualties will be so high and i won't care because we are GOING TO WIN." ? The fate of the world was at stake. Jake seemed to have gotten over the issues. He just wanted to win and didnt care how. So sending an auxilliary Animorph to accompany Rachel was definitely not beneath him. In fact, it would have been a blessing compared to him sentencing them to being slaughtered, fighting directly in front of the Yeerk Pool Ship where it blasted them each to death.

It was also the same Jake who flushed out a thousand defenseless Yeerks into cold space. That part I didn't get. Its not like he didnt burn a bunch of thousand Yeerks to death in #6 right before he became a Controller. But then again, maybe he was able to learn through Cassie that Yeerks are also sentient creatures, and not all of them are bad.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 30, 2008, 03:30:34 PM
I wasnt saying that it was above him to ask one of the poor little crippled kids to kill themselves, I was saying that he didnt know which one to ask because he didnt know them. Lets say the one he asks freaks out, tells all the others, they all freak out and they all quit, there goes the plan. he couldnt risk losing them because they were so vital in another capacity, they didnt need all of them, but trying to take a few could have compromised the whole group
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Vivi9087 on July 30, 2008, 04:34:57 PM
Also don't forget that all except 3 of the Aux. were still crippled.  So if he asked one of them, they'd have to go from flea to very vulnerable crippled state, to battle morph.  They also had next to no battle experience and like stated above, they couldn't really be depended on that much.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 30, 2008, 05:43:33 PM
The aux animorphs were going into an almost certain death situation anyway.  They never even blinked.  Why should any one of them even think twice about going into a slightly different suicide situation?

Also chiming in to give a nod to a few comments:

1st to filmstu2005:  Extactly right.  The last book was disappointing.  It just seemed so...out of line with the rest of the series.  Storyline and characters both just seemed so disjointed.
 
It ended up just being a "really?" moment.  As in "really, did it just end that way?" and "she is really going to leave it hanging after I've just read 54+ books with almost pathological dedication?".

Also, good point that Jake should have been the one to sacrifice himself taking out Tom.  Having Rachel do it was just a bit weak after all the build up.

2nd to Duff: good point about the immobilization plan.  Kinda forgot that in my blind rage.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: morfowt on July 30, 2008, 05:59:31 PM
weren't Jake and the others going to try to stop the dracon beams before the yeerks killed all of them? so it wasn't a complete suicide mission.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 30, 2008, 06:50:33 PM
The aux animorphs were going into an almost certain death situation anyway.  They never even blinked.  Why should any one of them even think twice about going into a slightly different suicide situation?


They didnt know it was a suicide mission tho, they thought that that was the actual battle they were leading, not the distraction. They were brave enough to go into a battle with pretty bad odds for sure, but Rachel knew that she was going in with zero odds of survival. I'm not saying none of the auxiliaries were capable of that, but Jake couldnt risk finding out if they were.

Also, he needed someone to sit quietly to await their death, if he had picked a few others who seemed willing and able and then they got cold feet and freaked out while on tom, then the whole thing would have been ruined. He could only trust one of his team to do exactly what needed to be done so fearlessly.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: filmstu2005 on July 30, 2008, 06:54:35 PM
weren't Jake and the others going to try to stop the dracon beams before the yeerks killed all of them? so it wasn't a complete suicide mission.

Thats funny. Cause i seem to remember that they ALL died. Yep, sounds like a suicide mission to me. They knew the chances of them coming back were slim, so they were aware. As was Rachel. I honestly see no difference. At least on the Blade Ship an auxiliary Animorph could possibly find a nice place to demorph and remorph, while as on the battlefield in an open war directly in front of the Yeerk Pool Ship, there was no such room where a crippled child could do that. And since that's true, he could've spared one of his mobile auxiliary animorphs, one of his lieutenants that could walk.

Sorry, but none of it made sense. Wasn't entirely well thought out, now was it. But hey, even writers make mistakes. It happens.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: morfowt on July 30, 2008, 07:04:11 PM
the original plan was to stop the dracon beams, however they failed to do it in time. that's what i was trying to say.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 30, 2008, 07:20:15 PM
I think he was trying to quote me, yes, it was definately a suicide mission, but they didnt know that, they thought they had a chance. And you didnt address my other point
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 30, 2008, 08:03:17 PM
True...I suppose neither was really a clear 100% suicide mission without the hindsight we have.  However, filmstu2005 has a point.  It's easier to demorph and remorph on the bladeship (or anywhere else for that matter) than on the battlefield especially for the crippled auxillaries.  And, as previously mentioned, they could have sent one that could walk.

It just seems that taking two or three out of the pathetic decoy battle to go with Rachel would have been prudent. 

As to trusting them...why not send Marco and Tobias with Rachel? (I'm really not sure.  Maybe there was a legit reason not to.)
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Vivi9087 on July 30, 2008, 09:36:13 PM
Well you're right about the Aux that could have been sent, but he couldn't send Marco because Marco would have caught on too fast.  In fact did catch on as soon as he learned Rachel was on the bladeship.  As for Tobias, he was needed for the Taxxon morph to eat the fake Cassie.  Only he and Ax had extensive experience with that morph and he needed Ax for the computer hacking.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 30, 2008, 09:38:04 PM
Thanks for your input/thoughts guys :)

This part of the ending just really bothered me so it was nice to talk it out.

I just hated the fact that Jake was basically condemning Rachel to death, just because she was the only one brave enough to do the awful task. He told her that he didn't have a plan for her to get out (and yes lol I know she said she "liked it" that way or smthn). Again, why not Cassie? Or Marco? Or Tobias? They've all nearly died, risked their lives etc, and are brave in their own way.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Chad32 on July 31, 2008, 09:29:33 AM
Cassie has already proven that she wouldn't kill Tom. She proved it in The Ultimate when she let him escape with the morphing cube.

Marco has a ruthless nature, and if he was in on the whole thing he might have done it. However, that would make one less person to fight on the pool ship. So that's iffy.

I don't know if Ax couldn't be the one to eat the fake Cassie as well as hack the computers.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 04:44:13 PM
Why couldn't Jake have gone? (Either with or without Rachel?)  It just would have seemed far more appropriate, consistent, and heroic.  Then again perhaps it wasn't supposed to be (though considering the rest of the series I don't buy it).

And I still think Marco could've gone too.  He would've gone even if he realized it was a suicide mission (or close enough).

Granted: it couldn't have possibly been Cassie, Ax or Tobias (because of the Taxxon thing - then again Ax could have done that part too)
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: filmstu2005 on July 31, 2008, 07:37:39 PM
Why couldn't Jake have gone? (Either with or without Rachel?)  It just would have seemed far more appropriate, consistent, and heroic.  Then again perhaps it wasn't supposed to be (though considering the rest of the series I don't buy it).

And I still think Marco could've gone too.  He would've gone even if he realized it was a suicide mission (or close enough).

Granted: it couldn't have possibly been Cassie, Ax or Tobias (because of the Taxxon thing - then again Ax could have done that part too)

You're absolutely right about Jake. And before anyone tries to argue that Jake was needed to run the mission on the Yeerk Pool ship, think again. Did the Animorphs really need Jake to be there? NO. Think hard. Think about the mission every step of the way and you'll realize that no, they really could have done without him if it came down to it. He wasn't entirely essential to the plot there.

 1) They'd already been through dozens of missions without Jake, and they made it out alive just fine. Besides, Cassie was "the closet thing to having [Jake] there." His own words. She could make the right decisions, as well as Marco. Together they equaled Jake. And if you ask me, neither Marco or Cassie would've flushed a thousand Yeerks into cold space. That would've saved Jake from falling into despair after the war was over, if he hadn't been there.
2) There were no other major decisions to be made. Everything could have been planned out beforehand, as it already was. Hell, Marco could've morphed Jake to fool Tom.

Jake could've accompanied Rachel to kill Tom. Or at least replaced her. So either he was just a huge coward (didn't even have a plan to help her escape? What kind of cousin is that?) or KA missed out on some serious brainstorming.  Like I said, none of the characters were being themselves, except Rachel in her death scene. She was so calm, smart, SANE. The only part about Jake I liked in the end was that speech he gave right before the battle started. He was so adamant on winning and it made him look crazy as f***, but I respected his will. He just wanted to win, no matter the cost. Put all the b.s. aside to do what you have to do. Strangely admirable.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 08:20:11 PM
Amen.  The end sequence just didn't seem to fit.  It was almost like an entirely separate story masquerading as Animorphs. 

It is what it is but it could have been soooooooooo much better.  :-\

And Jake definitely ended up being far crazier than Rachel.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: morfowt on July 31, 2008, 08:23:18 PM
Let's see thinking...what about when the yeerks were about to fire at the engine room or whatever room it was? if Jake wasn't there, who would've warned them the yeerks were coming...

and that's all I got...
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Liz on July 31, 2008, 08:56:31 PM
You're absolutely right about Jake. And before anyone tries to argue that Jake was needed to run the mission on the Yeerk Pool ship, think again. Did the Animorphs really need Jake to be there? NO. Think hard. Think about the mission every step of the way and you'll realize that no, they really could have done without him if it came down to it. He wasn't entirely essential to the plot there.

 1) They'd already been through dozens of missions without Jake, and they made it out alive just fine. Besides, Cassie was "the closet thing to having [Jake] there." His own words. She could make the right decisions, as well as Marco. Together they equaled Jake. And if you ask me, neither Marco or Cassie would've flushed a thousand Yeerks into cold space. That would've saved Jake from falling into despair after the war was over, if he hadn't been there.
2) There were no other major decisions to be made. Everything could have been planned out beforehand, as it already was. Hell, Marco could've morphed Jake to fool Tom.

Jake could've accompanied Rachel to kill Tom. Or at least replaced her. So either he was just a huge coward (didn't even have a plan to help her escape? What kind of cousin is that?) or KA missed out on some serious brainstorming.  Like I said, none of the characters were being themselves, except Rachel in her death scene. She was so calm, smart, SANE. The only part about Jake I liked in the end was that speech he gave right before the battle started. He was so adamant on winning and it made him look crazy as f***, but I respected his will. He just wanted to win, no matter the cost. Put all the b.s. aside to do what you have to do. Strangely admirable.

I think Jake was still needed, not necessarily for the final battle, but for what came after.  He still had to negotiate with the Andalites and the Yeerks and it would be hard for the other Animorphs to deal with that themselves.

I think the story is more effective with Jake having to sacrifice someone else rather than himself.  We've seen that he's willing to sacrifice himself in MM#3, so I definitely don't think it's a question of being a coward.  It's an even more difficult decision to make when it's about another person, not yourself.  If Jake had died, then we wouldn't have seen his depression and dealing with his decision after the war, and that was part of what made the ending interesting to me.

I thought the speech Jake gave in the end was really amazing too.  I always thought he was kind of boring before, but I started to like his character reading those final books.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 09:07:30 PM
Good points but none of those things were relevant at the time of the decision.  Perhaps they made sense from a writer's standpoint but that's kind of immaterial.

It's just out of character for him to not go after Tom himself.

And the difficulty of the choice between condemning yourself and condemning someone else really depends on the nature of the person and situation.  Neither one is inherently more difficult.

Personally, I'm glad Jake went into a depression after the war.
It seemed an appropriate end for him.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 31, 2008, 09:23:28 PM
Cassie has already proven that she wouldn't kill Tom. She proved it in The Ultimate when she let him escape with the morphing cube.

Marco has a ruthless nature, and if he was in on the whole thing he might have done it. However, that would make one less person to fight on the pool ship. So that's iffy.

I don't know if Ax couldn't be the one to eat the fake Cassie as well as hack the computers.

Good point. I knew Ax couldn't be the one because he was too valuable in the technological sense (as well as dealing with the Andalites) to risk, so I put that in the OP.

The thing with Cassie though, is that she stopped JAKE from killing Tom(it wasn't her trying to kill Tom), which was to save Jake. So she herself is still capable of killing Tom.

Again thanks everyone for your input :)
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 09:34:12 PM

Why couldn't Jake have gone? (Either with or without Rachel?)  It just would have seemed far more appropriate, consistent, and heroic.  Then again perhaps it wasn't supposed to be (though considering the rest of the series I don't buy it).

And I still think Marco could've gone too.  He would've gone even if he realized it was a suicide mission (or close enough).

Granted: it couldn't have possibly been Cassie, Ax or Tobias (because of the Taxxon thing - then again Ax could have done that part too)

He had a tough enough time condemning one of his friends to death, adding one person wouldnt have made it any less of a suicide mission, it would have just been killing one more person. So he could have picked either rachel or marco, and the choice was obvious/
You're absolutely right about Jake. And before anyone tries to argue that Jake was needed to run the mission on the Yeerk Pool ship, think again. Did the Animorphs really need Jake to be there? NO. Think hard. Think about the mission every step of the way and you'll realize that no, they really could have done without him if it came down to it. He wasn't entirely essential to the plot there.

Yes, he really was. Nobody else knew the entire plan, he was playing it really close to the chest. Again, divulging the entire plan to one of the others would have been risking them screwing something up. The plan was perfect as it was, and jake had to be the one to see it through.


Jake could've accompanied Rachel to kill Tom. Or at least replaced her. So either he was just a huge coward (didn't even have a plan to help her escape? What kind of cousin is that?)

he did have a way to get her out, but erek drained the power, rachel was just the backup if that plan failed, she wasnt plan a

or KA missed out on some serious brainstorming. 

this is really what it comes down to, KA wasnt looking for a way for all the characters to make it out alive, she wasnt looking at jakes plan like oh **** i have to kill someone, she developed the whole plan so that rachel would have to die because that made a great story, for all of the characters
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: filmstu2005 on July 31, 2008, 09:39:05 PM
^^^You're glad he went into a depression? What kind of monster are you???

Lol. Kiddin dude. I agree with you. I think its more complex to walk into death's arms (suicide) than to send someone else to do it. Tom was Jake's brother. Jake knew the day would come when he would probably have to kill his own brother. I just wish he had the courage to kill Tom himself. Who knows? Maybe he could have won on the Blade Ship against all those Controllers. Maybe he could have saved Tom, and maybe died in the process. :)  Or spent the rest of his life completely miserable.

Actually Mirenne, I don't think Jake was needed afterwards to negotiate with the Andalites. Ax was a leader in his own right. They made him a Prince and gave him four morphing cubes! I think he/they could've handled it. lol

And you know what? i think the Animorphs wouldve gotten over Jake's death a lot easier than they did Rachel's. Cassie would of eventually moved on, Marco's already dealt with "death" in his past. He'd move on. Tobias would have Rachel, they'd be hurt but still find ways to move on. And personally, I feel Jake would want them to. He'd want them all to live their lives.

The REAL Jake would have sacrificed himself so that the others would be happy.  He's done it before, but what made this time so unique was that it was the climax, everything was on the line and it was his brother he had to face.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 09:50:21 PM
^^^You're glad he went into a depression? What kind of monster are you???


Lmao!  Ok, maybe a bit harsh.  But I think he went into the depression cause he knew it should have been him.  He knew - more than anyone else - that he'd made a mistake.

Jake wasn't Jake at the end.  Good points, all.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 09:57:35 PM
but he couldnt! it wasnt an option! he was needed to lead his plan, or risk the whole thing falling apart

even if it would have been more poetic or righteous or w/e if he had gone to face tom, it just wasnt possible

and he was definately needed to negotiate with the andalites, ax was still treated like an aristh and wasnt willing to stand up to the high counsel or w/e, yea he had made alot of progress but he wouldnt have been able to stick it to the andalites like jake did, the president couldnt have done a better job (not the current president, think of some good president lol)

i agree, im glad he went into depression, solely because i can look past my affection for the characters (unlike alot of people) and just see a great story, and that was a really interesting and tragic turn for his character
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 31, 2008, 09:59:12 PM

He had a tough enough time condemning one of his friends to death, adding one person wouldnt have made it any less of a suicide mission, it would have just been killing one more person. So he could have picked either rachel or marco, and the choice was obvious/

But why not Cassie or Tobias? I always thought Jake had a very protective attitude towards Cassie (understandable of course). I don't see why it's the obvious choice to pick his cousin to finish off his brother and be killed in the process when three other people were just as capable of doing the job.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 10:05:37 PM
Cassie was obviously not capable of doing it, she proved that

Tobias, i dno i should read it again whether could have, but even if he had been an option it still would have been rachel, it just is lol thats her character, she was always the one that could never live without the war, that wanted to go down in a glorious outnumbered fight, that really had no future past that day (that could be a whole topic in itself i know lol)
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Chad32 on July 31, 2008, 10:08:13 PM
I don't see why she wouldn't have a future past that day. Law, military, espionage, ect. She's not a one dimensional character.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 10:14:53 PM
Did Tobias have a morph capable of inflicting enough damage?  Hork-Bajir certainly wouldn't have gotten the job done (Rachel proved Grizzly> hork bajir over and over).

Cassie was definitely out - too unreliable in matters like that.

So I'll grant that Rachel was the reasonable choice if he couldn't do it himself.

However, my concerns are still:

1. Why not Jake himself?  I haven't heard a good reason for this yet (needs to lead is weak, needed for after the war negociations is meaningless as I doubt he was thinking about that at the time)

2. Why not come up with a better option rather than the solo mission?  They'd proven long ago that 2 or 3 animorphs was plenty to wreak havoc on countless numbers of Yeerks, morphing ability or not.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 31, 2008, 10:15:02 PM
I don't see why she wouldn't have a future past that day. Law, military, espionage, ect. She's not a one dimensional character.
^^She was really smart (didn't she win that outstanding scholars award?), good with fashion, etc. Her life didn't depend on the war, at least not the version of her that the ghostwriters wrote.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Chad32 on July 31, 2008, 10:19:39 PM
They all got a polar bear morph in The Extreme, so Hork-Bajir isn't Tobias' only option for battle. It's just his preferred.

For some reason the ghostwriters wanted to make Rachel into a bloodthirsty warrior who was in love with fighting. That's not the true Rachel, though.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 10:20:40 PM
I don't see why she wouldn't have a future past that day. Law, military, espionage, ect. She's not a one dimensional character.
^^She was really smart (didn't she win that outstanding scholars award?), good with fashion, etc. Her life didn't depend on the war, at least not the version of her that the ghostwriters wrote.

I agree, I think Rachel would have handled the post-war far better than some of the other characters.

Great point about the polar bear though.  Forgot about that.

And I've never liked the idea of ghostwriters.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 10:22:21 PM
Like i said, that could be a whole topic on its own (and it has been at least a few times)

i just think she couldnt sit back and enjoy a peaceful life like the others, she would be out there looking for another war

the argument that he needed to lead is completely viable because as i have said the others didnt know the whole plan, only he did, and he had to keep it that way or the whole thing could have fallen apart



on a side note...thanks guys lol, i havent had a good heated animorphs debate in ages, and im having a blast haha

...screw you guys!
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 10:27:02 PM

on a side note...thanks guys lol, i havent had a good heated animorphs debate in ages, and im having a blast haha

...screw you guys!

Lol  ;D

But it's not unheard of for a plan to be orchestrated perfectly without the direct attention of the plan-maker (for lack of a more apt word).  As long as everyone knew what they were supposed to do (which they did), his absence shouldn't be a problem.  Most of the others seem at least fairly competent and capable.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tiana on July 31, 2008, 10:30:02 PM
the argument that he needed to lead is completely viable because as i have said the others didnt know the whole plan, only he did, and he had to keep it that way or the whole thing could have fallen apart


But the Animorphs are supposed to be a team. Even when Jake was the leader, the rest knew what was going on and contributed to w/e process.

in this last battle, Jake really behaved like a dictator. Why couldn't he tell others the plan?
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 10:31:36 PM
there were still calls that had to be made, not really choices persay, but calls that needed to be made at a specific times based on the overall plan

and even without that, you are assuming that everything goes perfectly to plan, which it pretty much did, but jake cant assume that, he has to assume that there are going to be big decisions that need to be made and that he needs to be there for them

he couldnt tell them because half of them would never have went along with it, it was horrifying in retrospect lol
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: filmstu2005 on July 31, 2008, 10:44:55 PM
Exactly. They knew what was at stake and they werent gonna f*** it up, so Jake's presence was not essential.

Maybe it is poetic that Jake would face his own brother, but i' think it wouldve been a better read for the last book. Instead of having Rachel go when that plan alone wasn't entirely rational.

And Rachel would have lived fine past the war. She was only 16! And KA tried to make us think Rachel wouldnt be able to function without a war. Where was the faith? Rachel was smart. If I recall, the Rachel who narrated right before her death in the last book was looking forward to a life past the war. She even thought it was unfair to have made it that far only to lose it all. Sounds like she was eager to live.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 10:59:18 PM
there were still calls that had to be made, not really choices persay, but calls that needed to be made at a specific times based on the overall plan

and even without that, you are assuming that everything goes perfectly to plan, which it pretty much did, but jake cant assume that, he has to assume that there are going to be big decisions that need to be made and that he needs to be there for them

he couldnt tell them because half of them would never have went along with it, it was horrifying in retrospect lol

Perhaps if he had included them all they could have come up with a better plan.  He wasn't really thinking clearly.  And how often do plans ever go off without a hitch?  If something went wrong it wouldn't have mattered if he was there or not.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 11:11:07 PM
of course it would have, how many times had something gone wrong and jake been forced to make a tough field decision that saved their butts, oodles of times

throw it back to the cowards argument, this was his plan, and it was not a nice plan, it was screwing over alot of people(doubleday, taxxons, chee sorta, auxiliaries) and jake needed to own up to all of that, he made alot of promises and even if he didnt think he was going to keep them, heading out to his death with all of that unfinished would be cowardly, him opting out of his obligations just for some grudge with his brothers yeerk is cowardly

just another perspective on it
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: filmstu2005 on July 31, 2008, 11:14:02 PM
oodles?
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 11:16:28 PM
lol like lots, tons of times, a bountiful amount of butt saves
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 11:32:51 PM
Ah!  But didn't we say it wasn't supposed to be a suicide mission?  So he wouldn't be heading out to his death necessarily.  But that's beside the point.

Jake wasn't thinking of anything but winning at any cost (that much is clear) so I doubt he cared about any promise he might have made.

I still think if he had conferred with the others they could have come up with a much better plan.  They all knew the stakes so I don't buy that they wouldn't have bought into a horrifying plan.  Jake always needed them before when making decisions (to pick up what he missed).  Why did that suddenly change?
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 11:37:33 PM
cassie betrayed him and the team was generally falling apart, ax was double dealing with the andalites, in those last few books the team was completely a wreck, and war counsels as they began to be called (which i absolutely loved lol) just werent getting anywhere, he had his plan and in reality it was quite a masterpiece
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 11:45:11 PM
I disagree with the masterpiece part.

Jake was the leader because he was capable of and willing to making decisions.  But he always needed help and guidance.  His final plan was flawed (questionable disposition of forces, certain dangers he overlooked, among other things) as a result of a lack of just such guidance.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Duff on July 31, 2008, 11:48:29 PM
i agree it was still flawed, i mean alot of people had to die and get screwed over, but in the end he played everyone against eachother and managed to do the impossible of commandiering a yeerk pool ship effectively ending the war, thats a tall order lol
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on July 31, 2008, 11:59:31 PM
That much is undeniably true.  I haven't tried it personally but I'd assume.  ;D
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Starsword on August 01, 2008, 09:41:08 AM
Originally I liked the idea of sending Rachel to a semi suicide mission because she is the most reckless and fearless of them and would never stop. But I am starting to think Marco would have been the better choice, he was far better and making decisions, longterm and short term, and he was willing to kill his mom so that he could reach some end, so I don't think Jake's brother would have been a problem.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Liz on August 01, 2008, 01:13:08 PM
Well, I think Jake was still needed and that sending him to the Blade ship would have been a bad choice.  I know a lot of us think that the rest of the Animorphs could have handled the mission without him, but Jake thought he needed to be there, he felt it was his responsibility and that going in place of Rachel would have been the wrong decision.  He said:

Quote
Couldn't die. I was in charge. It was my plan.  No time for gestures. Win, that was all I had to do: Win.

I think he didn't ask the others for help or guidance because as he said, he didn't want Cassie to have to wonder later on if she could have stopped Rachel's death.  And he wouldn't have wanted to burden the others with that decision either.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Starsword on August 01, 2008, 09:29:15 PM
Jake was also consistently filled with self doubt. If I was sent into a battle to kill a family member, I would probably hesitate before acting, which would be rediculous and compromise the mission, let alone living with the self doubt that Jake had to deal with.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: wotw2112 on August 02, 2008, 06:16:10 AM
A valid point.  But Jake was also known as a decision-maker.  He acted when he needed to.  I think he would have been able to do it if it came right down to it. 
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Relight on December 15, 2009, 06:47:24 AM
Sorry, but none of it made sense. Wasn't entirely well thought out, now was it. But hey, even writers make mistakes. It happens.

I'm sorry for bumping this topic but I just have to point this out...

It wasn't a mistake. It was war. A main motif of the story, war is not pretty and you do what you have to in order to ensure a victory. Didn't you listen to Jake's speech before the plan was in place? He said half of them would die and that's okay, because the end more then justifies the means. It was a war, it was either the Yeerks or the Humans, Jake's species, Rachel's species, the Original animorph's species, the Auxiliary Animorph's species, Jake knew what he was getting them into and he accepted it.  Rachel was more then accepting to sacrifice her life for the greater good, as long as it meant the end of the war. After she stated that the polar bear had raised it's paw and killed her with one swipe, the Ellimist appeared, all Rachel wanted to know was if her life and death mattered and it did. That's that.

Did she have to die? No, not exactly but she did and that's what happened.

It was also kind of symbolic, considering everyone had wondered at one point or another what she would really do once the war was over. Even Tobias. Well, we never found out and maybe that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Serraph105 on December 15, 2009, 10:25:02 AM
I always personally felt that he could have sent three or four auxillary morphs to have done the job because what did those guys really accomplish in the final battle anyways? That could have given them purpose.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: MoppingBear on December 15, 2009, 11:00:02 AM
why would sending the auxileries have been better? because they arent main characters? they were inexperienced, and even 3 or 4 of them might not have been able to accomplish what rachel had, and they still would have died.  tobias wasnt as strong as rachel, cassie would not have done it. marco? probably could have, but really not much better than rachel, and wasnt marco vital on the pool ship? ax? the only andalite on their team?  rachel was the best choice. yeah it was cruel, but as jake said, he was seeing the clear line and nothing else.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Serraph105 on December 15, 2009, 11:11:18 AM
because sending one person in to take out an entire ship on their own isnt a smart move. especially when you consider it nearly took all of them to take the poolship. Sending in a small team or people makes a lot more sense than sending in a mad bomber to do as much damage as possible.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Kitulean on December 15, 2009, 03:05:31 PM
The fact that all those auxiliary animorphs died in that suicidal battle was ridiculous. They could have solved the issue by sending a few of them with Rachel so that she had some kind of back-up. If she'd had back-up, there's a much better chance that she (and they) would have lived.

It's not like Jake was new at this. It's not like he didn't know they had reinforcements he could use. It was sloppy. 
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: anijen21 on December 15, 2009, 03:24:13 PM
I agree. The last two books were a total clusterfudge. You could chalk it up to Jake's utter exhaustion and desperation, but you know what? That boy deserved every ounce of guilt he felt.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: SuperBlue on December 16, 2009, 06:40:26 AM
I always felt it a bit random, how Rachel was chosen to kill Tom. Jake always went on and on about how he was only an Animorph to free his brother so I thought if anybody was gonna do away with Tom it would be him
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Aluminator (Kit) on December 16, 2009, 11:46:30 PM
See, this is exactly what KAA was getting at. Her entire purpose of the entire sequence and the post-war thing was to show us, as readers, just how horrific war could actually be. We're lucky she only decided to kill off one Animorph when she was in that frame of mind. Rachel was someone we as readers knew and cared about. I personally feel that Rachel would have fared far better after the war than, say, Tobias or Jake managed to. She may have found what she was best at with the war, but she was an intelligent and adaptive girl- she would have been fine. That makes it all the more tragic to me- whatever future she would have had was simply ended because of the war. I absolutely hate that the finale came down to that, but all that means is that KAA did what she set out to do very well, so kudos to her for that. In that respect it's an incredibly good end to the war.

On the other hand, though, the situation feels kind of contrived, the plan was not an Animorphs plan, and everyone was acting out of character. I'm wondering if taking the series and twisting it all over like that was worth it. Sure, we got the powerful, messy ending that KAA wanted, but at the expense of it continuing to truly be Animorphs in my mind. *shrugs* I guess I wouldn't have considered that to be a worthwhile trade-off, but that doesn't make me right.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Lydia on January 19, 2012, 03:46:19 AM
I definitely didn't like the plan. Though Rachel was the right person for the job because of her fighting skills and so on, she didn't have to go alone. Why didn't Jake send some of the auxillary animorphs to go with her as backup?  I mean that's a typical Jake plan. Ofcourse he knew that other morph capable yeerks were aboard the blade ship. So instead of slaughtering all the aux. animorphs, five of them would have been very helpful. I totally hated Jake for that.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Tobichel on January 19, 2012, 03:59:57 AM
I definitely didn't like the plan. Though Rachel was the right person for the job because of her fighting skills and so on, she didn't have to go alone. Why didn't Jake send some of the auxillary animorphs to go with her as backup?  I mean that's a typical Jake plan. Ofcourse he knew that other morph capable yeerks were aboard the blade ship. So instead of slaughtering all the aux. animorphs, five of them would have been very helpful. I totally hated Jake for that.
Yeah, that was my post. An error occured so i had to post with my name.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Jdorsey314 on July 14, 2014, 08:10:40 PM
my disapproval of Jake's decision is the most strong opinion ever produced by any living thing. I hate him. I wish him dead. I wish him to die in agony and then burn in hell forever and ever and ever and ever. I am stewing in my anger today. I have also proven spontaneous human combustion is not possible, as the most ideal set of circumstances for it to ever happen have already existed for an hour and a half. I need to invent some new swear words. how do you get a hold of rocket propelled grenades these days? no one come near me. I may involuntarily lunge at them and twist their head around 180 degrees. I could chop down a tree with my bare hands. does anyone have any regular grenades? I want to burn down some forests and start a world war, I might invent some form of laser weapon and vaporize the nearest wallmart. I want to walk up to Jake and give my honest opinions to him I would say "hello, you #$%& stupid %$## #%$&ing &%&@, physical stimuli will be necessary to more accurately convey my emotions. mind if I stab you repeatedly?" I just typed a passage so horribly gory that It made me sick. I decided to delete it. anyway, I don't just wan't him dead, I want him to be real. I want to kill him myself.

ranting is necessary to prevent the pressure of ones head pressure from reaching dangerous levels. If I wasn't doing this I might die. thank you for reading.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: cathey on July 21, 2014, 11:57:14 PM
Jake was getting desperate after his parents were abducted to the Yeerk pool. I don't blame him for that. He took the responsibility of leading the most dangerous and important group of soldiers in human history at age 13. People shouldn't take leadership as granted. He did the best job possible for anybody of that age. We're romanticizing this series, but when it really came down to that, when you knew that you couldn't let either the Yeerks or the Andalites win, when you understood that time was running out, that you had to make the right choice right then, to save planet Earth and possibly the galaxy, what would you do? Jake did what the leader of the Animorphs, the leader of all resistance on Earth had to. He had to sacrifice the people he loved, and his decency and humanity for the end. That was it. He had to. Time was running out.

Sometimes I think Jake wanted to kill Tom. At that point there really wasn't a better ending for Tom. They didn't have the luxury to abduct Tom and starve his Yeerk to death anymore. Tom was already independent of Visser Three, he was off to another galaxy to infect another innocent planet/species if he lived. Wouldn't Tom himself rather be dead than live to see Earth destroyed and another world made slaves because of him? Jake didn't have to flush the Yeerks, but he did, not because he needed a diversion - that was a good excuse - but because he wanted the revenge. Cassie let Tom run away with the cube, not because she wanted to save Jake's remaining bit of humanity - that was a good excuse too - but because she believed the Yeerks deserved to be have an out to their lives as parasites. Personally I think Jake actually wanted to kill Tom at that point, there wasn't much other ways to free the real Tom anymore.

I agree the ghost writers got Rachel completely wrong. Rachel wasn't THAT crazy. I think in the end KA had to ride with what the ghosts have done for her, but still, Rachel was sane, cool, composed - not crazy and blood thirsty. She did fear for death, and the most important thing to her at that point was whether she mattered in the war. Plus, she understood Jake's decision. She didn't mind that Jake assigned her mission impossible.

I don't think Jake could or should go after Tom himself. Yes Jake was ruthless, but Marco hesitated at killing his mom. Alloran's brother missed on purpose when he had the perfect chance. Would Jake really execute through when Tom begged for mercy? Plus, it was Jake's plan. He was already under so much guilt that he couldn't even tell anybody the whole plan, just the pieces that they were involved in. He couldn't die, or risk not surviving yet. He had to send somebody. James' crew wasn't that loyal to him, he could only ask James but then there's nobody leading the other Auxiliaries, and they were needed for the distraction. He could only ask his crew. Ax was needed for the computers, and for communication with the Andalites. Marco was needed for the computers. Tobias was needed for the Taxxon. Cassie would probably do everything in her power to stop Jake, and that would mean the end of the human race. There was only Rachel. And even if he asked someone else instead, would Rachel have enjoyed sitting out and watching the grand fight from away, knowing that she does better? If not Rachel, it would have been Marco or Tobias or Ax or Jake himself that we're mourning over. And Rachel would be pretty unhappy she didn't get to fight in the final battle afterwards.

I know. I was pretty shocked when I was reading the second half of 53 too. But it made sense. Jake was strong enough to make the decision, and good enough to never forgive himself for it.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: NothingFromSomething on July 22, 2014, 12:40:58 AM
Guys, it wasn't anything other than Rachel was the only one who'd actually do it, probably Marco aside, and obviously both Ax and Jake himself.  And both Ax and Jake were needed elsewhere.  I guess he could have gone with Marco, but Rachel was pretty much the obvious choice.  The morphs and fighting proficiency probably came into it too.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: DinosaurNothlit on July 22, 2014, 01:51:15 AM
I think that many elements of Jake's plan were, well, rushed.  But I think he honestly did the very best he could have, and a heckuva lot better than I could have ever done.  Hindsight is 20/20, people.

For example, if he knew Tom was going to double-cross him anyway, why not kidnap him and starve out the Yeerk?  As sad as it is to say, I think Jake had stopped thinking of Tom as his brother at all by that point, and only as 'the enemy.'  He straight-up says in #47 that he "doesn't have a brother anymore."  It was that thinking that really got Tom killed, in the end.  (Side note: I always think of the one scene Tom actually ever gets as a free human being, clear back in the first book, and he uses that one singular moment of screen-time to go kamikaze-charging at Visser-freaking-Three armed with nothing but his fists; Jake, that's the guy you wrote off as 'not your brother anymore').

Also, I'm sorry, but sending Rachel in alone was a bad move, and should have been avoidable.  The auxiliary Animorphs may not have been completely competent in battle yet, but at least a dozen of them could have been sent in along with Rachel (still leaving enough of them on the ground to provide a perfectly adequate distraction; they only really needed six of them as part of the diversion, after all).  And with the rest following Rachel onto the Blade Ship, they could have overwhelmed the Yeerks by sheer numbers.  Inexperienced or not, more people is better than less people (as was the entire point of the auxiliaries).  Attacking Tom didn't have to be a suicide mission.

*sigh*  But it's really easy to pick apart Jake's actions, when we are so far away from these events, as readers.  The fact is that he was under as much pressure as can possibly have been piled onto one person, fighting for the fate of the world.  And this was their last stand, their absolute last desperate chance to avert a total Yeerk domination of Earth.  The fact that Jake was able to see all the puzzle pieces as clearly as he did (knowing Tom would double-cross him, coming up with a plan that played off of that fact, knowing they'd need a diversion on the ground to keep the Yeerks from guessing they were already aboard the ship) is frankly amazing.  Most people would have simply broken under the pressure, and Earth would have been screwed.

Conclusion: Jake is human.  For better or for worse.

Post-conclusion EDIT: Just for the record, I don't actually place the blame on Jake for Rachel's death.  I place the blame on Cassie.  Her decision to play God with the fate of the world by letting Tom get away with the blue box may have caused a few Yeerks to defect, but, ultimately, THAT was the factor that made such desperate moves on Jake's part even necessary.  And, well, I for one truly want to believe that it was just a knee-jerk reaction to seeing Jake almost killing Tom, and it was just something Cassie did without thinking.  That would be a perfectly human thing to do.  If still the wrong thing.  Wrong, but understandably so.  But, if what she did was premeditated?  If she was intentionally handing over the Animorphs' one game-changing advantage in the hopes that a handful of Yeerks would find their way to their own little happy ending?  If that's the case, then I'm with Ax.  What Cassie did was unforgivable.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: cathey on July 22, 2014, 10:29:30 AM
Yeah I didn't like Cassie either. Shame we almost have the same name... I mean, this is WAR. And not just any war, we're not fighting over oil or a more powerful stance in the UN, we're fighting so the human race could be free, so planet Earth would not turn into a slave farm in the galaxy. Is that really less important than Jake's decency? Also I totally disagree with her statement that the cause doesn't justify the means. If you're carrying 7 billion free lives on your shoulders, you do every ugly thing that you have to do.

I don't think Jake could have asked more people to go... Even Rachel knew that she was about to die when Jake told her of the plans and was scared waiting for her final fight. The Auxiliaries didn't even want to fight after one of their people died. If Jake asked James to give him 2 from his gang, to join Rachel aboard the Blade Ship, would they react as calmly as Rachel? Remember, James is new, and his people only listen to him, and they haven't gone through much to get as cold blooded as the Animorphs were becoming. They didn't understand the reality of war yet. The Animorphs group was already falling apart, so no way any vote would go through knowing it was very likely suicide for the chosen members. He couldn't risk Marco whining, Tobias challenging, Cassie trying to stop the plan in any way possible, or Rachel herself getting furious and demanding why not. It had to be kept secret. Maybe Marco could have gone as well. But I dunno, I have a feeling Ax and Rachel are the only two people who would calmly take the order and go execute, and Ax was needed for his technical skills. Plus sending Ax off wouldn't be so fun to read anymore... I am the servant of the people... yeah we've heard that a couple times now...

I do agree that I would prefer putting a few Auxiliaries to the mission, but that might not have been possible at all.  The kids were very likely going to freak out. Rachel was the only one tame enough to accept the mission and not tell anyone about it.

About Tom... Ever since Tom got the morphing ability, it became impossible to free him. You couldn't tie him up anymore. He's either going to morph bug to escape or morph jaguar to fight to the death. I'm very, VERY surprised that Jake's yeerk back in book 6 decided to surrender instead of going for the escape at night. The tiger was the most powerful morph in the group. And I don't think Rachel developed the killer nature to murder her cousin at that point in the series yet. They would have hesitated in killing Jake. The Yeerk had no problem killing any of them. Plus, if he gets out, he's gonna get promoted to visser rank in no time. He doesn't, it's death by starvation. Such polarized choices and he decided to surrender...
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: DinosaurNothlit on July 22, 2014, 01:40:38 PM
Cassie is just so thoroughly not a big-picture person, I don't think she could ever quite wrap her head around what it was they were fighting for.  Sure, she can completely fall apart over one life (human, Hork-bajir . . . or termite), but a hundred, or a billion?  She could never even fathom those numbers.  She is, in essence, a walking talking example of that saying "One death is a tragedy, one hundred deaths is a statistic."  That was, honestly, just how her brain worked.

Keep in mind that, although the auxiliaries were inexperienced, the Yeerks were very new at morphing, too.  And, with enough people, taking the Blade Ship wouldn't have necessarily been a suicide mission at all.  Send in a dozen auxiliaries, overwhelm everybody on the Blade Ship, maybe there's a casualty or two, but that's still a heck of a lot less scary than being on the ground out in the open where you're apt to get shot at with ship-board Dracons.  As all of the auxiliaries actually were.

Granted, of course, that the Animorphs had no idea at the time that putting all the auxiliaries on the ground would be a suicide mission for them.  But they still should have known that being exposed like that would be far more dangerous than trying to overpower the Blade Ship from inside (with adequate backup).

Hmm, that's a pretty good point about Tom.  I think they still could have freed him, but it would have taken all of them to do it, and taking all of the Animorphs out of the fight for those three days would have been a bad idea.  See, even though he could probably take one of them in a fight, he couldn't take all of them.  That's the same thing that did Jake's Yeerk in, too.  Underestimating the strength of the team as a whole.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: cathey on July 22, 2014, 09:42:53 PM
But they did go home for sleep when Jake was a controller. They weren't all over him at that time. Jake's Yeerk could have morphed tiger right there and took a stand. Tobias' hawk and Cassie's wolf were no match. Ax... maybe. I don't think you get to call Rachel and Marco in for showdown at 3AM in the morning. So if book 6 was any more realistic, Jake would have died there. In 54, the yeerks were saying they'd rather fight to death than die of starvation. So I'm pretty surprised Jake's yeerk didn't choose to go down the hard way.

Tom's Yeerk should be smarter. Any yeerk should be smarter. Aftran asked for death. I'm pretty sure Tom's yeerk would have took a stand. Morph bug, get caught, okay, demorph, morph jaguar, fight to death, fail, demorph, morph jaguar, fight to death again... Also who knows if Tom has a fly with him as backup / messenger? Cassie's decision was stupid. They still had a chance to save Tom if Tom was just a human (actually I'm surprised Jake didn't think of kidnapping Tom after book 6 but just decided to leave a weird message), it's impossible if Tom and his crew became morph capable.

I really don't know... Maybe he could have asked Marco as well, but how many flees do you get to put on an enemy without having them noticing? I agree that he might have been able to put 2 more people on the ship, but to outnumber is quite impossible. The auxiliaries had to pick up a flee morph btw, and they had to accept death.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: DinosaurNothlit on July 25, 2014, 03:03:39 AM
I think what saved Jake was the fact that not all Yeerks think alike.  Sure, a fair number of Yeerks might have been so terrified of Kandrona starvation that they would have pushed their luck, trying to die in any other way except that.  But Jake's Yeerk seemed to be pretty bent on surviving as long as it absolutely could.  I believe he went so far as to point out the foolishness of humans that would fight even when the odds were against them, saying that it was better to play it safe and survive.  He didn't so much care how he died, because he only cared about not dying.

Of course, that way of thinking ended up biting him in the @$$.  But, I don't think it was necessarily unrealistic.  It's pointed out several times in the series that humans are rather unusual in our dogged persistence against long odds, and the fact that we keep fighting when others would have long-since given up.

I still think they could have saved Tom, if they had ever made it a priority.  If he were injured, he would demorph rather than die, and as a human they could knock him out, buy themselves a little time that way while he's unconscious, and then just keep at it and never let him get the upper hand.  Heck, if they timed it right, he might not even get the chance to morph fully before they could injure him enough that he'd just have to demorph again.  And then, he'd have to sleep, same as they do, they'd just have to be careful to always post a watch in case he woke up and tried something.  Maybe even employ a few of the free Hork-bajir to help.  It could be done.  Jake just didn't care.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Chad32 on July 25, 2014, 09:06:13 AM
Honestly if the Chee could get the supplies, they could keep Tom's body unconscious, and feed him intravenously for three days. There were ways to make it work, even if he could morph. Although since the Yeerk stated it could morph too, they may have to worry about it morphing something and exploding out of Tom's head. Killing him and making his escape anyway.

Then again, the only reason he got the box was because the author threw Cassie and Jake the idiot ball, as TV Tropes puts it. A Human controller with a dracon beam is not enough to really escape from a Tiger and a Wolf. If Cassie had distracted Tom instead of attacked Jake, they could have brought him down and carried him off. We can debate this all we want, and there are some legitamately good ways to rescue Tom. It just happened the way it did because the ghostwriter wanted it to happen that way.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: cathey on July 26, 2014, 07:54:59 AM
About Tom I really think they should have kidnapped him early on in the series. The Chee already covered for Jake once. They could have done that for Tom. They had so many morphs. All they had to do was ambush him and knock him out, then carry him out to the woods and starve the yeerk. It was so easy, and I can't believe it wasn't the first thing that came to Jake's mind once he was freed. It's one of my biggest grudges for the series. If Tom was saved they would have got more info on the yeerks earlier in the series, and they could have made him a new member when David found the cube. It's like KA wrote book 6 for nothing. ...though KA really wrote a lot of books in the series that had served no purpose or had some potential that was essentially, wasted...

I think in the very book Cassie stopped Jake from stopping Tom, she got mad at her parents for not understanding that this was war, and the whole human race is at risk. So I'm really amused at how self-conflicting these characters could be. Yeah I know. The point was mainly to point out where Rachel and Cassie got their extreme genes from, but it's still stupid.

My main reason for backing Jake in his final move was that time was running out. The only thing that mattered then was whether a certain strategy would work, and I really don't blame him. In almost every other scenario out there, Earth would have been fully infiltrated and destroyed. Even though his plan was flawed, and it was so sad reading his thoughts after watching Rachel die, "I ordered my cousin to execute my brother. How will I ever explain that?", it was understandable.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: Chad32 on July 26, 2014, 09:18:14 AM
Presumably the contollers would investigate why one of their own, who happened to be important, suddenly disappeared. They'd be suspicious, and may decide to infest Jake's family. That's why I think book 31 was such a great opportunity to rescue Tom. Apparntly they had written the Yeerk off as dead. Nothing to be suspicious about if he dies. as for Tom, they could fake his death. Nothing suspicious about an involuntary host committing suicide after his Yeerk dies.

The only problem, really, is that Tom's parents would go to the Sharing first to look for answers about why Tom killed himself. Still, I think that was the best opportunity to rescue him.
Title: Re: Did anyone dislike Jake's orders? (regarding Rachel)
Post by: RainOfBlood on January 31, 2015, 12:58:09 PM
The orders were unacceptable and entirely uncharacteristic of a supposed "leader" who made getting his team back home alive his main purpose throughout the series. Does winning a war require sacrifice? Yes. Does it required needless sacrifice? No. Jake should have brushed up a little bit more on his military strategies and researched the numerous battle tactics that were used by guerrillas throughout the entire span of human history up to that point. They exploited their powers as spies and saboteurs, which was fine. They used no human or alien weapons when out of morph, which was an understandable oversight on their part because they were untrained and were still reliant on "keeping their innocence" and doing their best to forget about their battles while out of morph, as teenagers would do.

The problem still rests with Jake's orders to send Rachel to the Blade Ship without backup. What kind of moron sends his cousin to kill his brother without looking at all of the available options first? This is a veteran child soldier we're talking about, who has managed to keep his team intact throughout the series. Excuses such as "he was too tired to think straight", "he couldn't trust anyone except Rachel", do not cut it when we consider his character and his talents that have been used and abused this far. Why throw his most valuable weapon away just to get back at his brother?

Although we as readers of the series are looking at the decision in hindsight, remote from the action, whatever, even those of us not trained in the martial arts of warfare can detect a big f up when we see one. Rachel needed a backup squad with her. James, Erica, and Craig fitted the requirements. The rest of the Auxiliaries would fall under the directions of Sam Doubleday, who is trained, is knowledgeable enough to comprehend the importance of masquerade and camouflage to keep animals without weapons but an inspiring presence in reserve if the action got too close. All the Yeerk command had to do was see the six usual battle morphs, and the ruse would have been complete. First objective for Rachel on the Blade: Take the commander (tom) hostage. Failing that, then kill Tom and attempt to take over the bladeship with the help of her squad.

What happened in the last battle was unbelievably stupid, far more mistakes were made in the book than were made in the previous books in the series, and I cannot believe somebody did not point out the obvious flaws of that plan before it happened.