Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Visser Phi on September 07, 2009, 12:28:51 AM
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Sorry if this had been done before, but I'm rather new to the site.
I was wondering if anyone had compiled a list of confirmed kills for each one of the Animorphs. I thought it'd be interesting (in a morbid kind of way) to see just how many sentient lives each member has taken, and maybe how those numbers would compare with those of history's most prolific soldiers, serial killers, and other miscellaneous disturbed people.
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That would be cool to see, but any kills reported in the books would just be a fraction of the number they "really" killed. Still, it would be kind of interesting.
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Hm, I thought in the battles, the Animorphs usually fight to injure/knock the enemy out instead of outright killing. There were some pretty graphic descriptions of fights, but even at the most it would be Ax lopping off some Hork Bajir's limbs or them slicing up Taxxons (ok which basically means killing the Taxxons).
But like what musicman said, the Anis most likely killed way more than what the books described.
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Either way, I think it;s safe to say Jake is going to have the highest body count.
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Either way, I think it;s safe to say Jake is going to have the highest body count.
Very good point. It's hard to top seventeen thousand casualties, even over three years of war.
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Exactly. Plus I believe he killed 100 others in book 6 when he boiled the Yeerks in that mini Yeerk Pool at the hospital.
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These are all I can think of right now because I recently re-read these two.
In "The Stranger," the Animorphs topple the Kandrona sphere from the EGS tower and then Yeerks start dying once Visser 3 can no longer shuttle them back and forth from the pool ship to get Kandrona rays. The Ellemist showed the Animorphs the alternate future, and this event had enough of an impact to where Earth's future went from certain slavery to the Yeerks to still up-in-the-air. So I'd say at least 1000 Yeerks died.
Also in "The Weakness" they kill at least a couple hundred Yeerks with wreckage from the private jet. Jake wasn't even involved in that one.
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They flushed a Yeerk pool in #34 on the Hork Bajir homeworld.
I feel like the actual killings were mentioned indirectly, it always seemed that more was written about them attacking Taxxons than how many Taxxons they directly/indirectly killed.
I didn't really pick up on killing sometimes until someone mentioned a Taxxon being eaten or someone picking alien flesh out of their teeth.
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jake wins hands down with book #54.
of course, this would still be an interesting idea.
we could each take a book or two, read it, and reply with results.
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You know, it's interesting how little fuss was raised over the yeerks killed in #6.
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so if they kill a Taxxon or Hork-Bajir Controller are we counting that as one kill or two?
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At the time of 6, the Yeerks were regarded as always chaotic evil. I don't really remember how many were killed. If it was a lot, or just a dozen or less.
Tehn as the series goes on, they realise that maybe all Yeerks aren't evil. That maybe some of them are just trying to live normal, happy lives.
Tehn late in the series, everything goes downhill, and Jake isn't being himself. so he tries to rationalize flushing that huge pool into space.
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You know, it's interesting how little fuss was raised over the yeerks killed in #6.
lol that's one of my main pieces of evidence for hating Cassie. She was in the room with him and was basically "let's boil us up some Yeerk stew"
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That may be the first hypocritical thing she ever does. But then, like I said, at that point they were just monsters.
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Not to mention that the Yeerks in that tub were actively part of the invasion. They were all meant for important human hosts, so they must have been relatively high-ranking.
As opposed to the Yeerks Jake flushed at the end, who were probably just unfortunate souls at the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Not to mention that the Yeerks in that tub were actively part of the invasion. They were all meant for important human hosts, so they must have been relatively high-ranking.
As opposed to the Yeerks Jake flushed at the end, who were probably just unfortunate souls at the wrong place at the wrong time.
so murder's okay as long as the people you kill are high-ranking?
TOTAL MONSTERS or not, the Yeerks are sentient. Saying "murder is murder" is definitely an oversimplification, but I mean...come on.
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Not to mention that the Yeerks in that tub were actively part of the invasion. They were all meant for important human hosts, so they must have been relatively high-ranking.
As opposed to the Yeerks Jake flushed at the end, who were probably just unfortunate souls at the wrong place at the wrong time.
I think the Yeerks Jake flushed may be just as involved in the invasion as those in the tub, since they were on the Pool ship. JMO :)
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so if they kill a Taxxon or Hork-Bajir Controller are we counting that as one kill or two?
two.
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What about ambiguous kills, where it's never really made clear whether they were killed or not?
[spoiler]Such as Taylor and David?[/spoiler]
Or indirect kills? Where the Animorphs are sort of responsible for the deaths, but not really?
[spoiler]Like the Venber following the Animorphs into the hangar and then dying, or when the Animorphs helping to reprogram Erek and then he killed a bunch of Hork-Bajir?[/spoiler]
I dunno, this sounds like a cool project, but then you get into grey areas of "well, did such-and-such really die?" or "was so-and-so really the Animorphs fault?" and I think these things become more or less impossible to categorize.
Even counting only the certain-and-direct kills, though, you can be certain that each of the Animorphs had a staggering kill count.
Jake had the most kills, hands down. As others have said, not much could beat numbers like 17,000. And don't forget all the Auxilaries, soldiers, and Hork-Bajir that he ordered to their deaths in the final battle, too.
Rachel probably comes in second. Her bear morph has certainly taken down more than her fair share of Horks and Taxxons, I'd wager.
I'd be willing to bet that Ax is third. His tail is awfully lethal, and he's probably one of the more ruthless Animorphs when it comes to killing Yeerks.
Cassie and Marco are probably about neck-and-neck for kills. On the one hand, Cassie is the pacifist. But on the other, her wolf morph is much more lethal than Marco's gorilla. Marco has a tendency to knock his enemies out, rather than kill them. Still, his ruthlessness probably accounts for enough somewhat-indirect kills to make up for that, whereas Cassie would try to spare her opponents if given the chance. So I'd guess they'd probably come out even.
And I'll bet that Tobias comes in last (unless you count rodents as kills, lol). He never seems to kill anything, except for the rare occasions where he's morphed Andalite or Hork-Bajir. Otherwise, he goes for the eyes, which is painful, sure, and plenty inconvenient during a battle, but not lethal. And since he normally fights as a hawk, he probably hasn't actually killed that many controllers.
Unless . . . oh, but here's another grey area. If Tobias blinded a controller, and then another Animorph killed them where they would not have otherwise been able to, whose kill does that count towards? :huh:
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Otherwise, he goes for the eyes, which is painful, sure, and plenty inconvenient during a battle, but not lethal.
Actually, Tobias has probably been indirectly responsible for many controller deaths in this manner.
The Yeerks have no use for blind or otherwise disabled hosts, meaning that the host bodies would be eliminated. As would be the case for any other controller who was seriously disabled or injured by the Animorphs.
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maybe we could (for each book) make a list of how many definite kills, and then as a side note mention possible deaths
[spoiler]*cough* david.. ::)[/spoiler]
it's worth a shot, anyways.
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Otherwise, he goes for the eyes, which is painful, sure, and plenty inconvenient during a battle, but not lethal.
Actually, Tobias has probably been indirectly responsible for many controller deaths in this manner.
The Yeerks have no use for blind or otherwise disabled hosts, meaning that the host bodies would be eliminated. As would be the case for any other controller who was seriously disabled or injured by the Animorphs.
Wow, that's a good point. I didn't even think about that. Counting those deaths might put Tobias over Marco or Cassie for kills.
He'd still have only killed half as many for each controller he got, though, since, if you're right, they'd have gotten the Yeerk out and only killed the host. Man, I wonder if that ever occurred to him! He was basically killing the innocent Hork-Bajir/humans without killing the very creatures he was trying to kill in the first place!
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Otherwise, he goes for the eyes, which is painful, sure, and plenty inconvenient during a battle, but not lethal.
Actually, Tobias has probably been indirectly responsible for many controller deaths in this manner.
The Yeerks have no use for blind or otherwise disabled hosts, meaning that the host bodies would be eliminated. As would be the case for any other controller who was seriously disabled or injured by the Animorphs.
Does Tobias disable/blind that many Hork Bajirs? I remember reading in #23, where the HB he injured had a nasty scar so maybe not all of Tobias' victims ended up blind. I don't think this method would earn Tobias that many kills, because he has the strike and escape tactic, which doesn't injure as many Controllers as the other Anis during ground battles.
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Man, I wonder if that ever occurred to him! He was basically killing the innocent Hork-Bajir/humans without killing the very creatures he was trying to kill in the first place!
i'm sure he wouldn't have blinded so many had he thought about that.
i hadn't really thought of it either.
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I said this on another post but i transferred it here where it is more relevant:
Personally i think ripping someone to bits with your teeth would be far more brutal than shooting someone, but the author disallowed guns for the heroes as she thought that was wrong
Well on the ability to cope with interspecies warfare with minimal truama could apply to all sentients especially predators like humans... think of the popularity of sci-fi where the enemy are giant bugs/very ugly aliens. Tv tropes even mentions one of the main reasons for rubber forehead aliens is that in order to empathise with something you have to see it's mouth and eyes and it has to look human like... also armies (according to Lt. Col Dave Grossman) are slightly more like to be killed when retreating/running away because if you can't see the persons face, actually Grossman in his book on killing, goes into great detail about how killing becomes more traumatic the closer you are to the enemy if you are close enough to strangle someone it causes lifelong guilt, snipers experience even less guilt, whilst the people who drop bombs on cities experience very little guilt (apparently???) also cases of cannibalism like in franklin espedition it is noted that people usually cut off the hands and head because those parts are the most human like and thus hardest to eat (psychollogically plus all the crazy bones in your hands)... So perhaps the reason the animorphs experience so little guilt (comparative to what they had to do) is the same reason a man working at a slaughterhouse or hunting deer experiences no guilt: we are simply not designed to experience guilt over the deaths of other species especially ugly ones like Hork-Bajir and Taxxons it is the predator instinct at work... the animals that humans do have empathy for exhibit a lot of neoteny and have human like faces the classic example being dogs (especially our similar body language), but other animals like Pandas and monkeys and even rats get more empathy then say spiders and lizards or the poor coelcanth. I guess this is why fighting aliens would be much more fun than fighting humans-just like hunting-only your intellectual equals so it's not like your preying on dumb rabbits who can't match you, they are as well so it all boils down to: no empathy required.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllAnimalsAreDogs
A further note of "dehumanisation" Alloran released the quantum virus on the dumb hork-bajir rather than the yeerks, probably because the Arn didn't understand yeerk biology very well but still very easy, perhaps Alloran saw this is the equivalent of infecting the enemy's horses (as happens in Wilbur Smiths' River God) to undermine the enemies resources, except it's really not: the hork-bajir are sentient if simple allies, why didn't he try a little bit harder to develop a virus against the yeerks rather than go for the Hork-Bajir? His brother did target the yeerks, and whilst this would've affected the humans due to lack of development time (i also suspect it would've been less deadly to humans than yeerks, not being targeted directly at us but being a side effect), it is far less reprehinsible than wiping the hork-bajir because you can't be bothered. Like bombing a slave labor factory because Dresden is too far away for your lazy pilots to reach... But perhaps because the Hork-Bajir were simple it was easy for a slightly eugenic species like the Andalites to dehumanise them and not seek or research further to develop an anti-yeerk virus?
And yeah the thing about Tobias attacking Hork-Bajir is important: instead of attacking unhosted yeerks in their pool they attacked them in their infested hosts causing more damage to the innocent host rather than the slave master.
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I think Tobias has enough to angst about without realising that he's probably indirectly killed more hosts than any other teammate, due to onlly be able to maim instead of kill.
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Not to mention that the Yeerks in that tub were actively part of the invasion. They were all meant for important human hosts, so they must have been relatively high-ranking.
As opposed to the Yeerks Jake flushed at the end, who were probably just unfortunate souls at the wrong place at the wrong time.
so murder's okay as long as the people you kill are high-ranking?
TOTAL MONSTERS or not, the Yeerks are sentient. Saying "murder is murder" is definitely an oversimplification, but I mean...come on.
That's not quite what I meant... I was focusing more on the "active part of the invasion" bit.
It's like the difference between bombing an army bunker and bombing a city. When you bomb the army bunker, you're killing someone who is directly opposing you. While if you bomb a city, you're getting everyone, whether they support the war or not.
Neither are right, but it's the type of justification that the Animorphs may have made in that situation.
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And I don't think a count was always given.
Sometimes it just said "a lot".
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That's not quite what I meant... I was focusing more on the "active part of the invasion" bit.
It's like the difference between bombing an army bunker and bombing a city. When you bomb the army bunker, you're killing someone who is directly opposing you. While if you bomb a city, you're getting everyone, whether they support the war or not.
Neither are right, but it's the type of justification that the Animorphs may have made in that situation.
I definitely see where you're coming from, but that's assuming there are any "civilian" Yeerks at all.
Defining any race by one characteristic in sci-fi is tricky, and in my opinion, sort of shallow, but besides the Peace Movement, ALL YEERKS IN THE EMPIRE were all about invasion and infestation. I don't think the Yeerks in the Pool Ship were any less driven than the Yeerks on the planet, maybe just less talented and necessary. Actually, it's kind of weird that they were in the Pool Ship at all, considering the open infestation plan that Visser Three had prior to the Yeerk Pool blowing up...but then again maybe he actually had the sense not to put all his eggs in one basket. Regardless, I really doubt that those Yeerks' purpose was simply to take up space.
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I would like to think some Yeerks are just there because they're born there, or otherwise forced to be there. And the reason some Yeerks spend all their time in one pool or another is because there are more Yeerks than hosts.
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I think Tobias has enough to angst about without realising that he's probably indirectly killed more hosts than any other teammate, due to onlly be able to maim instead of kill.
Oh god, tell me about it. That would be one heck of a freak out if he ever made that connection.
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maybe we should make a "casualties of the animorphs" list rather than "deaths caused by the animorphs," which would de-ambiguate the possible deaths or great injuries
lol de-ambiguate
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This seems interesting. My only concern is about the kills/casualties that were not explicitly described.
For one, the war took place over three years, and the books did not cover that span of time. There were most definitely skirmishes in the background. Two, even in books, not all kills are talked about. While Marco is narrating and describing how he punched out a Hork-Bajir, Rachel may have just killed two Taxxons. It isn't very specific.
It would be interesting to find out the number of in canon kills, but still, it can't be regarded as accurate.
And back to Tobias indirectly killing hosts, I think that even if the connection was made in the books, he would still be forced to do so. A blind Hork-Bajir, while doomed, is less likely to gore one of the Animorphs than one with functioning sight. Despite moral conflicts, I'm pretty sure the Animorphs would be willing to sacrifice one or two nameless Hork-Bajir to save each other. And, what is the difference between Visser Three having the hosts killed later, or Jake goring them now?
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instead of attacking unhosted yeerks in their pool they attacked them in their infested hosts causing more damage to the innocent host rather than the slave master.
yeah..
i always thought it was strange that they'd hesitate to kill yeerks in their 'defenseless' natural state, but wouldn't hesitate to go for the controller.
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yeah..
i always thought it was strange that they'd hesitate to kill yeerks in their 'defenseless' natural state, but wouldn't hesitate to go for the controller.
One is just a helpless slug floating in some fluid... the other is controlling a seven foot tall alien that won't hesitate to gut you. Your morals will change very quickly when your life is suddenly thrust into immediate danger.
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And back to Tobias indirectly killing hosts, I think that even if the connection was made in the books, he would still be forced to do so. A blind Hork-Bajir, while doomed, is less likely to gore one of the Animorphs than one with functioning sight. Despite moral conflicts, I'm pretty sure the Animorphs would be willing to sacrifice one or two nameless Hork-Bajir to save each other. And, what is the difference between Visser Three having the hosts killed later, or Jake goring them now?
That's true for Hork Bajir, but they also had to fight human controllers. And to answer your question, while the others are usually in morphs strong enough to kill both the host and yeerk together, Tobias as a hawk can only cause an injury that would probably lead to the host being disposed of, but the yeerk itself would live. So the enemy he's actually fighting would get away uninjured and able to infest again while the innocent host is taken out. Yeah it's a necessity that Tobias would have to do whether he made the connection or not, but man would he have angst about it later. For a while he was having guilt issues killing prey in his field, so making a realization like that would mess him up pretty badly. Would have actually made a pretty interesting plot point, i wish Applegate had thought of it.
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yeah..
i always thought it was strange that they'd hesitate to kill yeerks in their 'defenseless' natural state, but wouldn't hesitate to go for the controller.
One is just a helpless slug floating in some fluid... the other is controlling a seven foot tall alien that won't hesitate to gut you. Your morals will change very quickly when your life is suddenly thrust into immediate danger.
Very true, but the "defenseless" Yeerks deserve to die more than their poor controllers.
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I don't know if I agree that blinded Hork-Bajir are useless. They may not have eyes, but they still have boy and girl parts to make more Hork-Bajir with eyes. Then again this capability of hosts never seemed to occur to the Yeerks, since it seems pretty taboo in Visser to *engage in primitive mating rituals* using hosts. But I thought that was dumbbb so I am going to pretend that in some little corner of his deranged, violent mind, Visser Three had the calculating, economic frugality to use his resources effectively rather than just killing everything that even slightly pissed him off or inconvenienced him.
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I don't know if I agree that blinded Hork-Bajir are useless. They may not have eyes, but they still have boy and girl parts to make more Hork-Bajir with eyes. Then again this capability of hosts never seemed to occur to the Yeerks, since it seems pretty taboo in Visser to *engage in primitive mating rituals* using hosts. But I thought that was dumbbb so I am going to pretend that in some little corner of his deranged, violent mind, Visser Three had the calculating, economic frugality to use his resources effectively rather than just killing everything that even slightly pissed him off or inconvenienced him.
That's a good point. Also, Hork-Bajir were so rare (on account of the quantum virus + Visser Three's temper tantrums + the Animorphs), would the Yeerks have killed them off on account of disabilities like blindness? Or would they have just been forced to deal with it?
No question, though, that a blind human would be disposed of.yeah..
i always thought it was strange that they'd hesitate to kill yeerks in their 'defenseless' natural state, but wouldn't hesitate to go for the controller.
One is just a helpless slug floating in some fluid... the other is controlling a seven foot tall alien that won't hesitate to gut you. Your morals will change very quickly when your life is suddenly thrust into immediate danger.
Very true, but the "defenseless" Yeerks deserve to die more than their poor controllers.
I wouldn't agree with that. Is simply being born into a certain species enough to merit their death?
At least with controllers, you know that the Yeerk is out to get you. Yeah, the host is innocent, but you tend not to see that when they're trying to kill you. It's self defense.
When you're killing unhosted Yeerks, you are doing it for no reason other than simply to kill them. It's pretty much murder.
It's hard to say which is worse, but they're both pretty reprehensible.
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Just got through re-reading Book 13 (the one where Tobias gets his morphing powers back) and actually discovered something contrary to what we've been discussing.
Jer Hamee cuts his head open to reveal his brain so the Animorphs know he isn't infested, but then the wound heals almost instantly. I'd assume that Hork-Bajir would also be able to regenerate damaged eyes in this manner as well, but then again I wouldn't know.
Another item of note is that before Book 13 none of the Animorphs had ever even thought that a Hork-Bajir could be a non-controller. I suppose that when you're involved in a war you really can't stop to think about things real deeply.
That's a good point about the series not specifying exactly how many controllers/Yeerks were killed. The most specific is probably the 17,000 number. But it would be interesting to see who killed the most.
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I think that if you're looking at a body count, it should be the kills that the animorph MAKES, not one's that they're responsible for.
If you're asking for a body count, it means: You shot him, he's yours. A solider gets a body count, not the soldier's seargent, not the solider's general, but the solider. A fighter pilot has a death count, not the navigator who relayed the enemy position.
You bite, you slash, you claw, you kill; you get the count. Not, you order, you scheme, you mention; you get the count.
Indirect doesn't matter when it comes to a body count. If you wound someone, and then they get shot because they weren't fast enough to run away, the person that ended their life gets the kill, not you.
When talking about tallying a body count, only the life you physically stopped counts.
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by killing as many unhosted yeerks you are preserving the freedom of their future hosts and therefore preventing those future hosted yeerks from killing you or enslaving others. Look at this way: there is a contagious parasite, would you rather kill the host to prevent the spread or simply drain the swamp where the parasites come from. It's a fair comparison, sentient and nice as yeerks are as individuals when they are invading your planet they are still a disease to be cured or prevented.
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I think that if you're looking at a body count, it should be the kills that the animorph MAKES, not one's that they're responsible for.
If you're asking for a body count, it means: You shot him, he's yours. A solider gets a body count, not the soldier's seargent, not the solider's general, but the solider. A fighter pilot has a death count, not the navigator who relayed the enemy position.
You bite, you slash, you claw, you kill; you get the count. Not, you order, you scheme, you mention; you get the count.
Indirect doesn't matter when it comes to a body count. If you wound someone, and then they get shot because they weren't fast enough to run away, the person that ended their life gets the kill, not you.
When talking about tallying a body count, only the life you physically stopped counts.
In that case... Wouldn't Ax get the body count for flushing the Yeerks? 'Cause I seem to recall that he's the one who actually did it, even though Jake ordered it. Ax is also the one who suggested it.
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Definitely, If ax dumped 'em, he gets the count.
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Very true, but the "defenseless" Yeerks deserve to die more than their poor controllers.
I wouldn't agree with that. Is simply being born into a certain species enough to merit their death?
At least with controllers, you know that the Yeerk is out to get you. Yeah, the host is innocent, but you tend not to see that when they're trying to kill you. It's self defense.
When you're killing unhosted Yeerks, you are doing it for no reason other than simply to kill them. It's pretty much murder.
It's hard to say which is worse, but they're both pretty reprehensible.
Have to disagree with you there.
By killing a Controller, you'd be killing someone who was forced to do acts against their will. The host is not trying to kill you but they are being made to do so, and will be killed because of the Yeerk's actions, not their own.
Nowhere did I say that being in a certain species merits their death. But regarding the Yeerks, once they began to enslave and murder other species, the bets are off when it comes to their own.
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that is the only reason I disagree with Alloran: he killed the poor bloody Hork's but didn't try a little bit harder to release a virus on the yeerks, how hard could that be? The yeerks like everybody else must be held accountable to their actions, and enslaving and murdering others is the worst possible action.
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Very true, but the "defenseless" Yeerks deserve to die more than their poor controllers.
I wouldn't agree with that. Is simply being born into a certain species enough to merit their death?
At least with controllers, you know that the Yeerk is out to get you. Yeah, the host is innocent, but you tend not to see that when they're trying to kill you. It's self defense.
When you're killing unhosted Yeerks, you are doing it for no reason other than simply to kill them. It's pretty much murder.
It's hard to say which is worse, but they're both pretty reprehensible.
Have to disagree with you there.
By killing a Controller, you'd be killing someone who was forced to do acts against their will. The host is not trying to kill you but they are being made to do so, and will be killed because of the Yeerk's actions, not their own.
Nowhere did I say that being in a certain species merits their death. But regarding the Yeerks, once they began to enslave and murder other species, the bets are off when it comes to their own.
I agree that killing a Controller is wrong. I'm just saying that it's no more wrong than killing unhosted Yeerks.
You can't say that "The Yeerks came to earth, they're the evil ones, they must die." Any Yeerks that ever managed to escape their home world were then unable to return, because of the Andalites policing the surface, right? And a lot of Yeerks were then born, far away from their home world. They had no ability to return, and nowhere else to go except for wherever the motherships went. So, while a lot of Yeerks may have chosen to come to earth, a lot more of them were simply dragged along for the ride, and had never had any real choice in the matter. You can't claim that someone is guilty, simply because of being somewhere that, for all we know, they never wanted to be in the first place.
I think that if you're looking at a body count, it should be the kills that the animorph MAKES, not one's that they're responsible for.
If you're asking for a body count, it means: You shot him, he's yours. A solider gets a body count, not the soldier's seargent, not the solider's general, but the solider. A fighter pilot has a death count, not the navigator who relayed the enemy position.
You bite, you slash, you claw, you kill; you get the count. Not, you order, you scheme, you mention; you get the count.
Indirect doesn't matter when it comes to a body count. If you wound someone, and then they get shot because they weren't fast enough to run away, the person that ended their life gets the kill, not you.
When talking about tallying a body count, only the life you physically stopped counts.
I suppose that's probably the best way to do it, so as to avoid all those ambiguous kills. It surprises me, though, to learn that the 17,000 would count towards Ax's total. And, actually, that would probably give Ax a lot of additional kills besides just those, seeing as there are numerous occasions where Jake gave an order and Ax was the one to carry it out.
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I think that if you're looking at a body count, it should be the kills that the animorph MAKES, not one's that they're responsible for.
If you're asking for a body count, it means: You shot him, he's yours. A solider gets a body count, not the soldier's seargent, not the solider's general, but the solider. A fighter pilot has a death count, not the navigator who relayed the enemy position.
You bite, you slash, you claw, you kill; you get the count. Not, you order, you scheme, you mention; you get the count.
Indirect doesn't matter when it comes to a body count. If you wound someone, and then they get shot because they weren't fast enough to run away, the person that ended their life gets the kill, not you.
When talking about tallying a body count, only the life you physically stopped counts.
I don't know how I feel about that. By that logic, the pilot of the bomber plane is solely responsible for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and as long as Hitler didn't pull the trigger himself, he's off scot-free. It also completely exonerates people who use contract killers.
At the very least, I think we're slowly moving toward the conclusion that war is messy and can't be quantified very easily.
I still think it's something we should try, but we're going to have a lot of asteriked numbers.
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You guys are over thinking it. We're not looking for how many deaths are they RESPONSIBLE for, we're looking for how many they ACTUALLY killed. Hitler is responsible for all those Holocaust deaths, and Marie Curie is responsible for the deaths of the Japanese in Hiro, and Naga.
Technically, if you want to delve deeper, Hitler is responsible for every single death in WWII, If he hadn't gone on his Third Reich campaign, then a lot of those people wouldn't have died.
BUT HE DOESN'T GET THE BODY COUNT. (not yelling, just emphasis)
George Bush doesn't get the body count of Scout snipers in Operation: Desert Storm, the sniper does.
We're not counting how many deaths they're responsible for. We're counting how many they took the life of. We're looking for a singular line of causality, He shot he killed. She clawed she killed. He released the air lock, he killed.
For body counts, you need to see in black and white.
If in another thread, you'd like to debate what deaths the Animorphs are responsible for, than do so, you can explain your shades of gray all you like. But here, we're talking body counts. Black and White, no gray allowed.
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You guys are over thinking it. We're not looking for how many deaths are they RESPONSIBLE for, we're looking for how many they ACTUALLY killed. Hitler is responsible for all those Holocaust deaths, and Marie Curie is responsible for the deaths of the Japanese in Hiro, and Naga.
Technically, if you want to delve deeper, Hitler is responsible for every single death in WWII, If he hadn't gone on his Third Reich campaign, then a lot of those people wouldn't have died.
BUT HE DOESN'T GET THE BODY COUNT. (not yelling, just emphasis)
George Bush doesn't get the body count of Scout snipers in Operation: Desert Storm, the sniper does.
We're not counting how many deaths they're responsible for. We're counting how many they took the life of. We're looking for a singular line of causality, He shot he killed. She clawed she killed. He released the air lock, he killed.
For body counts, you need to see in black and white.
If in another thread, you'd like to debate what deaths the Animorphs are responsible for, than do so, you can explain your shades of gray all you like. But here, we're talking body counts. Black and White, no gray allowed.
if you want to do that, it's cool. I'm just wondering how practical that knowledge actually is.
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Yeah, I thought the same thing when I first read the original post. But then people started to skew what Visser Phi was asking for.
Plus, the numbers, I feel, are incalculable because they had many missions that weren't on the books, I'm sure.
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Huh. Good idea for the 2.0.
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so, thanks to parker's post to clear it up a bit, who wants to tackle this?
shall we each read the books and discuss, or do you want to get it done sooner and split it up?
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shall we each read the books and discuss, or do you want to get it done sooner and split it up?
I vote we split it up.
I think we can rule out a few books from our count. #2 didn't have any real battle, nor did #3. #11 had a battle, but any deaths that occurred would have been un-done when Jake fixed the Sario rip. Don't recall any opportunity for anyone to die in #14, #16, or #19. I think all the books after that point, though, all contained major battles, because the books seemed to get more and more violent as the series progressed.
Okay, so, who wants which book? I'll take #33, if nobody wants it, because that's my favorite book anyway.
And does someone want to make a list, so we can keep track of which books have no battles, and which ones are taken?
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Didn't they destroy a whole restock ship in #3?
I think we're going to just have to do them all. A few of the more peaceful ones managed to sneak in a random 2-page battle somewhere. In #14 there was that battle at the Gardens with some Hork-bajir on the tunnel of love, and I know 16 had some carnage, if not deaths, at fenestre's mansion.
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Didn't they destroy a whole restock ship in #3?
I think we're going to just have to do them all. A few of the more peaceful ones managed to sneak in a random 2-page battle somewhere. In #14 there was that battle at the Gardens with some Hork-bajir on the tunnel of love, and I know 16 had some carnage, if not deaths, at fenestre's mansion.
Holy crud, I completely forgot about them destroying the ship in #3! :-X
Yeah, so I guess we'll have to go through every book, then. So much for trying to make it a little easier.
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I think we should compile a list of participants, then start sectioning off packets of books. (i.e. 1-5, 6-10, etc.)
Should the count be specific, like:
Jake:
Human-Controller: 2
H-B-Controller: 8
Taxxon-Controller: 4
Bystanders: 1
Free H-B: 1
Andalite: 0
Or should it just be
Jake: 16
I don't think H-Bs should be counted for more than one, a soul is a soul, even if it is 8' tall and armed with blades.
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#11 had a battle, but any deaths that occurred would have been un-done when Jake fixed the Sario rip.
Yes, but they still remember the act of taking a life, and that's the thing.
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No, only Jake remembers what happened.
There's a question, should alternative reality kills count? The person never actually died, but the act of killing did happen.
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I think we should compile a list of participants, then start sectioning off packets of books. (i.e. 1-5, 6-10, etc.)
Should the count be specific, like:
Jake:
Human-Controller: 2
H-B-Controller: 8
Taxxon-Controller: 4
Bystanders: 1
Free H-B: 1
Andalite: 0
Or should it just be
Jake: 16
I don't think H-Bs should be counted for more than one, a soul is a soul, even if it is 8' tall and armed with blades.
Yeah, we probably will have to section off the books. I guess we probably won't have 54 people participating in this, so we can't really have a person-per-book system.
Anyway, I think we should list out the kills by type. It would be more fun, I think, and we'd get a lot more information that way. It's much more interesting to know that Jake killed 15 humans and 28 Taxxons than just that he killed 43 creatures of some kind. Also, like others have said, a controller counts as two. One Yeerk, one whatever kind of controller it was.
No, only Jake remembers what happened.
There's a question, should alternative reality kills count? The person never actually died, but the act of killing did happen.
Lol, I have no idea whether that should count. I was thinking not, since when all is said and done those people are still alive (unless they get killed later), but I guess you could make a case either way. I guess it depends on what we really want this information to specify; how many lives the Animorphs (temporarily) took, or how many lives that (permanently) ended because of them.
And what about that Barryman guy in Megamorphs #3? Technically, they didn't kill him . . .
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My thoughts exactly. I don't think they should count either, 'cause guess what, "They're not dead anymore!"
We're looking for who killed who, not what is weighing on their conscience.
Okay, so we need to create a template for the info for people to fill.
This is just a suggestion:
(Book #)
(Character Name)
[Type of death (Morph, Dracon, Starvation, etc.)]
[Victim type (Human,H-B,etc.)] - (How many)
Book #1
Jake
Morph kills:
Hork-Bajir-Controllers - 4
Taxxon-Controllers - 5
Human-Controllers - 1
Controlling Yeerks - 10
The yeerks should be counted, but I think as a separate total. That way there's some distinction
Any other suggestions?
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I'm thinking sanctioning off books might be a little daunting to prospective kill-hunters
so maybe we should just start at the beginning, and everyone can grab whatever's at the top of the pile, you know what I mean? As long as people announce what book they're doing before they do it, we won't have any doubles.
Or someone could just make a big list and people could take whatever books they wanted.
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Sounds like a good idea. I'll go ahead and make the list.
#1
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
Megamorphs 1
#8
#9
#10
#11
#12
#13
#14
#15
#16
#17
#18
Megamorphs 2
#19
#20
#21
#22
#23
#24
#25
#26
#27
#28
#29
Megamorphs 3
#30
#31
#32 -DinosaurNothlit
#33 -DinosaurNothlit
#34 -DinosaurNothlit
#35
Visser
#36
#37
#38
#39
#40
Megamorphs 4
#41
#42
#43
#44
#45
#46
#47
#48
#49
#50
#51
#52
#53
#54
I didn't miss any books, did I?
Anyway, I went ahead and called three books, if nobody minds. If someone else is a huge fan of 32 or 34, I'll give in, but I figured it would just be easier to do those all at once since they're right next to each other. Who else wants which books?
Oh, and another question. In book #32, should I lump Nice Rachel's and Mean Rachel's kills together as Rachel's kills, or keep all three separate (not that Nice Rachel ever killed anybody, lol).
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Okay, should we make a new thread in the projects board?
I think first come first serve would work, but they have to request the book first, so as we don't have 5 people tallying the same book.
I still need suggestions about the template. Do you like the template, or would you like some things changed?
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I still need suggestions about the template. Do you like the template, or would you like some things changed?
I think the template looks pretty good, but we should add some sort of system to cover ambiguous, indirect, and/or AU kills. Or maybe just use asterisks to note things like that?
Also, a question. Are we counting non-sentient kills?
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Also, a question. Are we counting non-sentient kills?
lol so we can count that falcon that David divebombed and that fish that Mean Rachel ripped to shreds?
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No, I think not. Sentient only.
I think at the very bottom there should be a section for group effort kills or "iffy" kills.
Only give credit for clean-cut "I shoot, you die" kills, and then afterward put the "fringe" kills.
#6 - The Capture
Jake KJ:LK
DJFKDJFL
Cassie lakdfadkf
al;dkfja
Rachel
Fringe kills:
One yeerk was starved out by the Animorphs
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Recently read both of these books, so I'll just go ahead and give the kill-counts.
Book 12 (The Reaction)
Rachel-Accidentally stepped on Jeremy Jason McCole's Yeerk
Book 13 (The change)
Rachel- Possible Hork-Bajir controller kill, says "she'd taken one of [the Hork-Bajir] out of the fight." Don't know if that means kill or simply knocking the Hork-Bajir unconscious. Probably the latter, as she later simply knocks another Hork-Bajir out. Otherwise there are none.
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Book 12 (The Reaction)
Rachel-Accidentally stepped on Jeremy Jason McCole's Yeerk
I might debate that one. Both times, in the books, when Yeerks have been stepped on, they are simply assumed to be dead afterwards. Never do we get any proof that they can actually be killed that way, and when you think about it, it doesn't make sense that they should be. I mean, if they're malleable enough to squish down into a person's skull, do you really think they're going to be killed by pressure?
I'm doing book 32, and there's a scene where some Hork-Bajir are hit by a car at full speed, and I'm not counting those. Humans or Taxxons, and they would have been killed. Hork-Bajir? Don't think so. Which means that Mean Rachel only got a whopping 4 in-canon kills; two Hork-Controllers, and the two Yeerks controlling them. That surprised me. I was sure she'd killed more than that.
Anyway, is someone going to make this into a Project, or what? Or should I?
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She stepped on the Yeerk in grizzly bear morph.
A hundred pound human stepping on a Yeerk? Yeah, it will probably be OK.
But a half-ton grizzly bear stepping on a Yeerk? The Yeerk is going to be as flat as a pancake, if not dead.
I count it as a kill, especially since the book implies/assumes the Yeerk to be dead, but if you don't then that's fine too.
EDIT:
Just got through reading book 14, The Unknown.
Ax in rattlesnake morph bites a Hork-Bajir and the Hork-Bajir is shown to be suffering from poison during the battle. Rattlesnake bites are usually deadly if not treated with anti-venom, but it is not a confirmed death. Other than that, no kills in book 14.
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I think it's implied throughout the series that squashing a Yeerk will kill it. Visser Three almost does this to Aftran in #29, the Hork-Bajir stomp on all the spilled Yeerks in the Hork-Bajir Chronicles, etc. It is kind of weird that their method for infestation requires them to flatten and uncoil and disperse and they're still vulnerable to that, but...idk, wank all you want about that. Maybe they have to be in contact with gray/pink matter for that to work. Neurons and the like. Who knows.
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Yeerks could be thought of like water baloons. If you just step on a water baloon it will pop, but if you carefully press it toward a flat surface it will spread out to a point. Of course, Yeerks aren't made of water, probably more like a mushy substance which is more malleable, but the concept is similar.
In that manner, once they're ready to infest a host Yeerks can probably flatten themselves to a point using a gradual process which slowly re-arranges their internal organs. But if you were to just stomp on one you'd crush it.
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Yeerks could be thought of like water baloons. If you just step on a water baloon it will pop, but if you carefully press it toward a flat surface it will spread out to a point. Of course, Yeerks aren't made of water, probably more like a mushy substance which is more malleable, but the concept is similar.
In that manner, once they're ready to infest a host Yeerks can probably flatten themselves to a point using a gradual process which slowly re-arranges their internal organs. But if you were to just stomp on one you'd crush it.
Okay, that's a good point. Yeah, I can buy that.
So the kill in book 12 probably really is a kill. I just wanted to make sure.
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What about the Howlers? Didn't Crayak kill them all after they had the kissing memory transplanted into them? I think he did, not sure, though. That would make Jake indirectly respobsible for the deaths of all the Howlers Crayak had created, since Jake gave the Howlers his memories.
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20-22 are mine!
I'm right up to the David arc in my series re-read anyway.
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Okay, reposting the list:
#1
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
Megamorphs 1
#8
#9
#10
#11
#12 -Homiegee
#13 -Homiegee
#14 -Homiegee
#15
#16
#17
#18
Megamorphs 2
#19
#20 -Jess
#21 -Jess
#22 -Jess
#23
#24
#25
#26
#27
#28
#29
Megamorphs 3
#30
#31
#32 -DinosaurNothlit
#33 -DinosaurNothlit
#34 -DinosaurNothlit
#35
Visser
#36
#37
#38
#39
#40
Megamorphs 4
#41
#42
#43
#44
#45
#46
#47
#48
#49
#50
#51
#52
#53
#54
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What about the Howlers? Didn't Crayak kill them all after they had the kissing memory transplanted into them? I think he did, not sure, though. That would make Jake indirectly respobsible for the deaths of all the Howlers Crayak had created, since Jake gave the Howlers his memories.
We're only counting direct kills. no others. So only the Howler that Jake forced off the platform would count.
Also, it was Crayak that directly killed those Howlers, not Jake.
I'll start the RAFproject thread. I just wanted everyone's opinion on the template.
RAFproject created: http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3773.0.html
Please remember to use the template when posting the kills.
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Ah, thanks for all the replies, people, and to Parker for starting the new thread. I'm surprised this got so many responses. I'd concur with Parker's idea that it's only the direct kills that count; including the notion of "ultimate responsibility" (via an order by Jake, or somesuch) would start us down a slippery slope that quickly becomes a vertical precipice of hopeless vagary.
I'm rather busy with school at the moment, but I'll definitely contribute when I can.
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Sweet. Yeah, if we went with "Ultimate" Responsibility, The animorphs are responsible for all the deaths. If they didn't fight, the infestation would most likely gone without notice.
Just post in the new thread which book you want to tackle if you wanna.
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Exactly. Plus I believe he killed 100 others in book 6 when he boiled the Yeerks in that mini Yeerk Pool at the hospital.
I had thought that only ONE Yeerk was in that pool, and it went INTO Jake!
[spoiler]Book 52: A bunch of Yeerks killed when the pool was blown up.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Book 37: The Weakness: The Animorphs crash a plane in to the pool.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Book 45: A bunch of Yeerks in the pool broiled when the Animorphs fire Dracon beams inside the pool.[/spoiler]
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Goshhhhhhhhhh. Use spoiler tags :P
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Goshhhhhhhhhh. Use spoiler tags :P
Done.
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Tim, the books you've recorded have already been claimed. Also, the actual body count project isn't recorded here.
I'll start the RAFproject thread. I just wanted everyone's opinion on the template.
RAFproject created: http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3773.0.html (http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3773.0.html)
Please remember to use the template when posting the kills.
If you want to revitalize the project, then cool. Please review the first post, choose a book and follow the parameters of the project detailed within.
Thanks for your interest.
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Ok, I did an approximate calculation of how many enemies have been killed by animorphs. It's not simple, because in many cases it's not clear if a Hork-Bajir or a Taxxon is dead or wounded. In other cases the number of casualties is vague.
#1 : 7 Hork-Bajir, 3 Taxxon, 1 human-controller
#2 : 1 HB
#3 : 1 TX , 2-3 controllers on the helicopter, unknown killed in the explosion of the tank ship and the bug fighter
#4 : 12 TX
#5 : 4 HB, 1 TX
#6: around 100 yeerks without host body in the pool
#7 : 1 TX, at least 11 HB and 3 HC
#8: 5 HB
#10: 20 human-controller and 25 HB killed by animorphs and Erek
#12 : 1 yeerk
#13: 6 HB
#14 : 5 HB
#15 : 5 HB, 1 TX, 1 Leeran, other unspecified HB
#17 : 2 HB
#18 : at least 5 yeerks from Leerans' bodies. Thousands of Yeerks killed by the Andalites in the explosion of Leera's continent
#19 : 7 HB
#20 : 4 HB
#23 : 4 yeerks, probably other controllers
#25 : 1 TX, probably at least 7 HB
#27 : at least 4 TX and 2 HB
#28 : 1 TX, at least 2 HB
#30 : 4 HB, surely other HBs ant TXs
#32 : 6 HB, at least 1 TX, other HB and TX
#33 : at least 12 HB
#34 : at least 4 TX, some HB, thousands of Yeerks on the Hork-Bajir planet
#35 : at least 1 HB
#37 : at least 6 HB
#38 at least 7 HB and 6 HC, at least 5 HB and 2 TX killed by others (the Andalites), several yeerks in the pool
#39 : at least 10 TX and 7 HB
#40 : at least 10 HB
#41 : at least 15 HB
#43 : at least 2 HB, 1 Taxxon, 6 HC
#44 : at least 8 HB and 5 TX
#45 : at least 9 HB, 1 Taxxon, 3 yeerks, several others in the pool
#46 : at least 3 HB, 3 Yeerks, several HC
#47 : at least 6 TX, 11 HB but surely many more in the flooding
#49 : at least 7 HB
#50 : at least 6 HB and 4 TX
#51 : 7 yeerks morphed, 2 HC on the helicopter
#52 : 6 HB, 5 yeerks morphed, 10 HC morphed, hundreds or thousands of yeerk in the explosion of the pool, probably several Controllers in the cave
There are no killings in book 9, 11, 16,21,22, 24, 26,29,31,36,42, 48
TOTALE ESTIMATES :
Controllers killed for sure by Anis and allies : 216 Hork-Bajirs, 59 Taxxons, 60 Human-Controllers, 1 Leeran, 1 Garatron, 12 morphed yeerks
Unhosted yeerks killed for sure : 232
Controllers probably kiled by Anis and allies : 300-400 Hork-Bajirs, 200 Taxxons, 100 Human-Controllers
Unhosted yeerks probably killed : 2,000-10,000 on Earth, same number on HB-planet
Total enemies killed from "The Invasion" to "The Sacrifice" : 12.000-21.000
In #53 The Answer they kill 17.372 unhosted yeerks, so probably the death toll is around 29.000-38.000 enemies killed.
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Very cool, but I must ask why you aren't counting the Howlers: at least one lead off a cliff, potentially the whole race wiped out. Granted it's not a Yeerk killing
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+1 that's pretty cool :)
It's kinda funny considering they didn't want to kill humans and yet that's there second highest kill count.