What do you think of the Andalites?

[TobiasMasonPark]

     ^Actually, maybe the Arn COULD do just that. Any curious Hork-Bajir would have been wiped out exploring Father Deep--getting devoured by the numerous creatures there. It could be that the Arn foresaw the possibility of them evolving into human-esque douchebags, but either eliminated the potential, or just plain found a way to leave it out.

     But now that the Arn are gone, it could very well be that the free Hork-Bajir could evolve on earth and change their pacifist ways. The Hork-Bajir rebels are significantly more warlike when the Yeerks get involved--in the Hork-Bajir chronicles, I think I recall the Dak getting upset because the Hork-Bajir were eager to fight their new enemy. Prior to the Yeerks, the Hork-Bajir had no reason to fight or be douchebags because they were at the top of the food chain. But with the Yeerks gone, the Hork-Bajir on earth and influenced by the master race of douchebags--humans-- who knows what they will look like 1 000 000 years from now.

[RYTX]

competition=/=curiousity

Factor sure, but the distance threat of monsters is not the limiting factor of intraspecies-as you put it-douchebaggery

And just as humans are "top of the food chain" we've found reasons to fight for all human history
I still say it's not enough to explain things that way

[Aluminator (Kit)]

I'm not saying it would, for canon's sake we can say it didn't, but again, I don't think it's good to use limited evolution as a  blanket explanation to uniformity of Hork-Bajir

Touché. Haha. I shouldn't be using science to justify prejudice. And yet I continue...

And let's face it, the Arn can't engineer out competition any more they the can engineer out intelligence.  The former is almost a fundamental property of life forms. You'll have mutants for that just like you have seers

Most likely true- and you're right in that, in the time since their initial creation, the Hork-Bajir would be subject to normal evolution. Still, though, they seem to live in an environment that leads to very little need for competition- there's no shortage of food, there are no resources to compete over. Compared to Earth standards, we might not even recognize what passes for "competitiveness" or "ambition" in Hork-Bajir culture.

Besides, the Arn wouldn't have to eliminate competition- they'd just have to cause the standard 'fight or flight' response to trend strongly towards 'flight,' which seems more in line with what we see in the series- when Ket and Jara escape, for example, they run. Free Hork-Bajir don't tend to try to fight unless directed by someone else (Toby, the Animorphs, etc.)

     But now that the Arn are gone, it could very well be that the free Hork-Bajir could evolve on earth and change their pacifist ways. The Hork-Bajir rebels are significantly more warlike when the Yeerks get involved--in the Hork-Bajir chronicles, I think I recall the Dak getting upset because the Hork-Bajir were eager to fight their new enemy. Prior to the Yeerks, the Hork-Bajir had no reason to fight or be douchebags because they were at the top of the food chain. But with the Yeerks gone, the Hork-Bajir on earth and influenced by the master race of douchebags--humans-- who knows what they will look like 1 000 000 years from now.

Thing is, what you're talking about there is learning, rather than evolution. It's the memes vs. genes debate. The Hork-Bajir are definitely a sentient species capable of learning things like violence- but with them, I never really got the impression that there was any ambition or malice behind it. It was something they did simply because it was something that they were supposed to do. Monkey see monkey do.  I'm betting that, outside of the context of competitive Humans, ambitious Yeerks or arrogant Andalites, the Hork-Bajir would revert to a pretty peaceful existence in pretty short order.

[RYTX]

sure, they might be more inclined to flight than flight, but there's no such thing as a species that is always one or the other. They run from Yeerks because to fight is to loss, same why most the time a lion runs from an elephat. And yet one on one Jara still tried to attack Ax when they first met, a threat, but a manageable one. Circumstances dictate flight/fight.

Either way,  that really doesn't hold up when talking about within HB: very, very unlikely both flee. 
In fact, recall book 13 when Rachel morphs Jara for the first time, and they fall into an instinctive dominance ritual. KASU? maybe, but it last half page and pretty detailed: HB compete. It's not like human competitiveness, but it's the exact same as competition in animal behavior

They may not have to compete for food, but many modern evolutionary biologist will say that the focal item of intraspecies competition isn't food, it's mating (they are wrong imo, but it's undoubtedly very important). KA worked very hard to avoid talking about that in most all the morphs.

I mean, this is a monogamous species-I guarantee, guarantee, that there is assortative mating going on there, there is some selection where potential partners look at each other and say I do/don't want to marry that one. There's no way you can eradict competition if there is any interaction, and that's a mandate of sexual species.
And unfortunately, being a prick can, again not saying would, but there's reason to believe it can, up the odds of getting some tail.

So...why I did I bring this up again? *reads prior posts*
Oh yeah; if we consider the aliens of this sci-fi series even remotely subject to rules of reality, life, and thus evolution, then it is reasonable refute the claim that the Hork-Bajir are as a species unanimously kind and good natured to all things, because competition for something (at the least sex) must exist, and there is almost certainly variation in their behavior in response, including some that are scumbags to their own kind.
Not 100%. But evolution stands on variation, and I see no way to fix sweet, which we are making akin to non-competitive, into a biological system.

[Aluminator (Kit)]

I was thinking more "non-confrontational," rather than "non-competitive," being equivalent of "sweet," but yeah, you have some excellent points. I had blanked the dominance ritual, and a few other things (think it's about time I reread the series again), and you're right; we do see a fair amount of competitive animalistic behavior in the Hork-Bajir. We also see that they're very social creatures, with a good sense of family and community. Could it be that the main tendency towards "sweet" in the Hork-Bajir is that they trend towards a positive, trusting attitude towards strangers, whereas with humans (and most Earth animals in general), the trend is towards suspicion and competition?

In any case, I think we've basically agreed on the main point, which is that no species should be judged on the actions of a few. While the Hork-Bajir do seem to trend towards the 'kinder' side of the spectrum, I'm sure you're right in that they're not exactly all (seven foot tall bladed) little angels.

I'm wondering now (bringing this back around to the original topic ) if the Andalite tendency towards arrogance might be partly or mostly genetic? I've been assuming it's mostly a cultural thing, but when dealing with a different species, it may be a fair assumption that the culture is a reflection of the species' genetic predisposition. If that's the case, it may be true that a lot of the Andalites in the civilian sector are every bit as infuriating to deal with as those in the military.

...And yet I maintain that no Andalite nor Hork-Bajir (or even Human) should be judged before you get to know them. Goodness, I feel like I'm turning this discussion into a weird balance between stereotypes and arguments against stereotyping

[donut]

it may be a fair assumption that the culture is a reflection of the species' genetic predisposition.

I'd disagree with this.  Human culture has extremes in it.  There have been warrior societies that value almost nothing that doesn't involve war, like the Spartans.  There are cultures that value honor above everything.  Some that put emphasis on your tribe. Cannabalistic cultures, merchant cultures, and apparently one odd culture that valued deceit above everything.

Such a wide variety of cultures that contradict each other would suggest that if genetics do play a role in culture, it's probably very minor at best.


I doubt the arrogance is genetic anyway.  Andalites had been the dominant species in their part of the galaxy for I'd say at least a hundred years.  They were more technologically advanced than any species they had contact with.  It made sense that being on top for that long would give them a sense of arrogance.  Look at any human culture that was dominant for any period of time, they tend to be really arrogant as well.

[RYTX]

Well, I'm told it's not about nature vs nurture, but the relative contributions of each: Andalite ego has to be a little genetic

And in 33 Tobias calls the andalite mind intrinsically confident; not arrogant per se but step in the right direction.

donut, as you just illustrated, humanity is very diverse, but I'm willing to wager a lot of that cultural diversity can be tied to something genetic.
In all likelihood there's some underlying facet of response  to environment that results in some peoples being warhawks and others being merchants. Something in the time and place probably enabled a warrior mentality in Sparta similarly as to the Sioux, or something.
The way to answer the question is not does a Spartan child raised in Athens still seek to go to war, but does is that child more likely than a child with an Athenian bloodline to go to war.
It's a stupid way to go about it, but that's how it'd be. But until some one does it, I'd put a very low wager on yes. Like a buck

Andalites however (now watch me back track on my last four post in this thread) so far as we know, come for a small, homogenous, united world. They've been the dominant species for eons, and but that the whole electorate is interconnected, it's not hard to conceive that there is a generalized Andalite culture.

The military culture apparent fosters this arrogance pretty well, and the fact they the encounter so many other life form that lack their physical and technical logical skills certainly helps inflate it.
But the "confident" andalite mind is inherent. How much of what is eventually expressed probably has a lot to do with the way they live, but yeah in part at least: nature and nurture vary in extent, but neither is capable of acting alone

[donut]

The way I see it, and it's just my personal opinion on it, but I think there is some evidence for it, is that culture is influenced considerably more by the experiences of the society than by genetics.  There are contradictory cultures in the world, as I mentioned, there have been cultures of merchants, but there have also been cultures where the people had no concept of individual ownership.

Whatever influence genetics have on culture, I would venture to say it must be too weak to have enough impact to matter with a few important exceptions.  One seems to be the treatment of children.  As far as I know, every human culture in the world places a great value on children and nurturing them.  And I'm fairly certain there is a strong genetic component to that.  Another exception seems to be spirituality.  I've tried doing a quick google search, the closest there appears to be a human culture without some form of religion was a Brazillian tribe with no type of gods, but it did have spirits/ghosts. (Some modern cultures are moving towards areligious/spiritual societies, but it appears to be a recent trend in human history) There also appears to be a genes that create a tendency in humans to be spiritual.

All that said, the proper way to raise children, what's considered nurturing, what gods or spirits to believe in, all vary significantly across cultures.  So again, I would say that the collective experiences of a society have a considerably higher influence on culture than genetics.

Just an example of how malleable humans can be
http://theweek.com/article/index/235216/6-children-raised-by-animals


It's been a long time since I read book 33, and I can't get to it now, but I thought he said they were 'optimistic'.  You may be right though, it's been a very long time since I read that.

You're right about the culture in the military.  Military's must instill some measure of confidence and arrogance in the soldiers as a survival mechanism.  You want the person who has to run from cover to cover while being shot at to think he is the most bad *** person in the universe.  Otherwise he tends to hesitate and get shot.  But that's a result of military training.  Everything from the constant stress to calling cadence is used to help foster that arrogance.


All that is to say my thinking is that culture may not be a good indicator of what a specie's genetics are.  That is, the fact that they are arrogant doesn't mean they are predisposed to be arrogant.

[Aluminator (Kit)]

the closest there appears to be a human culture without some form of religion was a Brazillian tribe with no type of gods, but it did have spirits/ghosts. (Some modern cultures are moving towards areligious/spiritual societies, but it appears to be a recent trend in human history) There also appears to be a genes that create a tendency in humans to be spiritual.

Thing is, when you get into the memes vs. genes debate, it's got to be understood that everything humanity (or any species) does must have its basis in genetics. Humans have spirituality because of who we are. We have societies because we're genetically predisposed to that kind of grouping. We build cultures, we paint and sing and tell stories and feel and fight and love and go to war because that's the species we are. How, specifically, we do that can be seen to be either a matter of more specific genetics or of exposure to society, but underneath it all, we're all still human. All of society, from its beginnings to the present day, is built off of what we are.

This, I feel, is one of the greatest strengths, and simultaneously one of the greatest failings, of the science fiction genre as a whole. Science fiction, and alien societies in particular, make a great method of exploring the breadth of human society in the guise of other species- but it's still just exploring humanity. Similarly, we can see the extreme differences in humanity- how malleable some people can be, how extremely different cultures can be- but we're on the inside looking out. What's "extreme" for humanity is still just extreme for humanity. The cultures we see in sci fi are always extensions of the human experience.

But now imagine humanity from an outside perspective. When you get right down to it, there's not really much variation across the whole human spectrum. Culture and expression and spirituality and intelligence only seem like broad categories to us because we spend our lives immersed in human culture, but if you think about it, not one of those things really varies all that greatly across the whole of humanity. If we ever encounter a true alien race, there's no reason to assume that they would ever fall into the spectrum defined by the boundaries of humanity. There's no reason to believe that they would talk or act or think in a way that we can even really comprehend. The term 'alien' is very appropriate for how they would probably feel.

And in 33 Tobias calls the andalite mind intrinsically confident; not arrogant per se but step in the right direction.

Similarly, while there are probably at least some genetic variations between humans that define individuals and cultures, they're all going to fall within the realm of humanity. With the Andalites, though, we're talking about a different species entirely. It's remarkable how human they are (they must be, of course, having been created by humans in the first place), but they're still the product of an entirely different world than ours. And even if that genetic predisposition for confidence is minor- maybe the average confidence of Andalites is only a tiny bit higher than the average confidence in a human being- that could have a pretty major effect over the course of their history.

In my mind, there's no way culture is the only effective difference between Andalite society and human society. I simply find it hard to believe that a species that evolved on a planet halfway across the galaxy wouldn't have at least some inherent mental differences from humanity.

[donut]

I guess it comes down to which explaination you think which there is more evidence for.  Either the evidence for it being genetic, andalites being naturally optimistic, or the evidence for it being a result of the experiences as a culture, being the dominant species for a hundred plus years.

I think that it's a result of being the dominant species, because every culture I know of that became dominant developed a very strong arrogance.  A good number of them outdid andalite arrogance by a lot.  So genetics might be the explaination, but since we can find that exact same pattern of behavior known cultures, I just find the evidence for experience to outweigh the evidence for genetics.

[RYTX]

On the 33 quote: optimism is definitely what's highlighted, since it was so unexpected, but confident and alert were the other key words to describe the Andalite mind.

I'll steal a line from Kit and say out right, it is genetic, cause yeah, everything is genetic (And to clarify for myself here, gene=/=heredity). Culture might be the dominant contributor as you say, and an Andalite raised by Hork-Bajir may be pretty damn humble, but the genes built the culture if you root around enough. I'm arguing semantics at this point, but that's what I do.

Keeping this solely in the Ani-verse for now, so far as we know the Taxxons were the dominant race on their world, but not exceedingly arrogant.
The Hork-Bajir had no real enemies, monsters in the deep, but really they ran that planet. And were (as a generality but not all encompassing rule per previous discussion)  sweet as sugar
We only really got prespective from Toomin, but arrogance didn't seem the standby of the Ketrans who "lift for all"
And while we know painfully little, the Skrit Na never hit me as arrogant, even though they drive the universe and *** with other life forms: suffice to say they are probably the tops in most their interactions

Conversely, the Yeerks may not have been oppressed, but only had power for a generation or too before becoming the embodiment of pride: there's a lot of culture running that, but I still suspect there's a genotype you can find underneath it.

There's no reason to believe that they would talk or act or think in a way that we can even really comprehend. The term 'alien' is very appropriate for how they would probably feel.

Na. I'd call it animal.
No reason to believe we'll have it 100%, but I'll wager we can be closer to understanding what's going on in something else's headthan scientific skepticism allows

[donut]

I wrote this big long thing, and realized I forgot my actual point.  I think it might be *possible* that genetics might have been the primary influence to andalite arrogance, but I find the collective experience of the species to be a much more *likely* explaination.  Hence, I'm going with it being a result of their experience than genetics.


For the life of me, I can't remember who the ketrans were.  Were they the crab people in MM2?


BTW, what was the original question?

[Aluminator (Kit)]

I'm arguing semantics at this point, but that's what I do.

's a good way to argue XD

Conversely, the Yeerks may not have been oppressed, but only had power for a generation or too before becoming the embodiment of pride: there's a lot of culture running that, but I still suspect there's a genotype you can find underneath it.

But couldn't you also argue that Yeerk pride could have arisen because the only other sentient lifeforms they'd interacted with were Andalites? We know the Andalites who landed on the Yeerk world would have been arrogant and prideful- setting that as an example to the Yeerks of how a space-faring civilization is supposed to behave.

There's no reason to believe that they would talk or act or think in a way that we can even really comprehend. The term 'alien' is very appropriate for how they would probably feel.

Na. I'd call it animal.

Eh, probably true, since any species is going to have to be evolved to compete in its own environment. Life as we know it simply can not exist without competition. Still, exactly how that competition shapes a species or even an entire ecosystem may be something that's very subject to change. Most life on Earth seems to be descended from comparatively common ancestry, so there are understandably similarities in behavior.

Then again, even here on Earth, we do see similar traits emerging in basically-unrelated species. Convergent evolution. They just happen to be useful traits that emerge, implying that certain traits are simply more useful for life to have. Hmm...

In any case, that does bring back the point you made about the Hork-Bajir. Competition is probably something it would be impossible to engineer out of a species (being necessary for life in general). And you're right- it's ridiculous to assume the Arn would want to do so. Competition for mates, as you used in your example, is going to be a driving force in the species.

Still, though, engineering a generally trusting, noncombative, nonconfrontational species could only be beneficial to the Arn. I imagine that, at least at first, the Arn would want to keep an eye on their new creations- it'd be easier to do so if they could freely walk among the Hork-Bajir.

And that's totally in line with what we see with Aldrea, for example- the Hork-Bajir really don't seem to take issue with her presence. So might it be possible for the Arn to create the species to be trusting of outsiders? Even friendly to them? Would that be enough to cement the generally 'sweet' nature of the Hork-Bajir? This seems like some fairly specific genetic modifications going on, but the Arn were supposedly the masters of that kind of thing or whatever, right?

And then, in the few millennia since, how much divergence from that original nature could there have been? The Hork-Bajir have lived on a world of plenty, where competition would exist, sure, but being a competitive **** wouldn't necessarily lead to that particular Hork-Bajir getting to breed more, since whoever he/she outcompetes for a mate will presumably be able to find another mate anyway. Very slight differential in reproductive rates will lead to only a very slight trend towards doucheyness, so the trend since their creation may not have been all that great. I'm genuinely curious- how different might 'modern' Hork-Bajir be from the original generation?

As a matter of curiosity, do we have any idea approximately how long Hork-Bajir generations are?

I wrote this big long thing, and realized I forgot my actual point.

Haha. I keep doing this, and then trying to shoehorn some kind of point in at the end of my posts >.< Mostly I think I'm just enjoying the discussion and the various viewpoints. I'm not even sure there's really an argument going on here so much as each of us just building on the others' thoughts. After all, we can each speculate and postulate, but without some real research into Andalite culture, there's no real way to say for sure how much of Andalite culture is due to genetics as opposed to society. And, sadly, at this time, I am unable to locate any Andalites to interview

For the life of me, I can't remember who the ketrans were.  Were they the crab people in MM2?

They were the winged people in the Ellimist Chronicles. Toomin's species.

BTW, what was the original question?

Iunno. Somethin' about Andalites. I feel like this has sort of gone off the rails. I like it

[donut]

Quote from: donut on Today at 02:35:39 AM

 

   For the life of me, I can't remember who the ketrans were.  Were they the crab people in MM2?

They were the winged people in the Ellimist Chronicles. Toomin's species.

Ah that explains it.  I never read that one.  I never liked the idea of the ellimist in the series, almost a literal god in the machine.

Quote from: RYTX on Yesterday at 04:26:46 PM

   

Conversely, the Yeerks may not have been oppressed, but only had power for a generation or too before becoming the embodiment of pride: there's a lot of culture running that, but I still suspect there's a genotype you can find underneath it.

But couldn't you also argue that Yeerk pride could have arisen because the only other sentient lifeforms they'd interacted with were Andalites? We know the Andalites who landed on the Yeerk world would have been arrogant and prideful- setting that as an example to the Yeerks of how a space-faring civilization is supposed to behave.

Or they could have developed a sense of pride at challenging the most powerful species known to them, and winning.  The war only turned against them at the end of the series, until  then it looked like the yeerks were holding their own and mostly gaining ground.  That and all the yeerks we know of outside HBC were born into the fight.  From there point of view the war was for survival of their species, and every one of them had to fight.  That creates a choice in their views: either believe they are better and will win, or believe they aren't and will die.

And you're right- it's ridiculous to assume the Arn would want to do so. Competition for mates, as you used in your example, is going to be a driving force in the species.

Oh! I just thought of something about that.  The Arn would have a good reason to remove competition if they could.  Competition goes hand in hand with ambition.  Ambition would create a drive to be better, do more impressive things, etc.  That ambition could drive them into trying to go into the blue mist and try to survive to prove themselves, or even try to best one of the monsters.  Taking out any sense of competition and ambition would hedge against the HB exploring or trying to go through the mist because it's there.

[Aluminator (Kit)]

Ah that explains it.  I never read that one.  I never liked the idea of the ellimist in the series, almost a literal god in the machine.

You should definitely pick it up if you get the chance. While the Ellimist in the series proper is sometimes used as a cheap plot device, his origin story is quite fascinating, and one of my favorite Animorphs reads.

Or they could have developed a sense of pride at challenging the most powerful species known to them, and winning.  The war only turned against them at the end of the series, until  then it looked like the yeerks were holding their own and mostly gaining ground.  That and all the yeerks we know of outside HBC were born into the fight.  From there point of view the war was for survival of their species, and every one of them had to fight.  That creates a choice in their views: either believe they are better and will win, or believe they aren't and will die.

Definitely a possibility, but doesn't it still feel like a bit of a stretch to just assume that all aliens are so 'human' in their thinking and development?

Oh! I just thought of something about that.  The Arn would have a good reason to remove competition if they could.  Competition goes hand in hand with ambition.  Ambition would create a drive to be better, do more impressive things, etc.  That ambition could drive them into trying to go into the blue mist and try to survive to prove themselves, or even try to best one of the monsters.  Taking out any sense of competition and ambition would hedge against the HB exploring or trying to go through the mist because it's there.

Competition is useful, though. I'm thinking less sentient, conscious competition, and more survival instincts. Or... actually, I guess it could go deeper than that (pun intended), into Father Deep. That is, simply, any Hork-Bajir curious enough to wander into the mists is going to get all... eaten. Basic natural selection would push Hork-Bajir away from that kind of curiosity, but not necessarily away from other forms of competition, such as competition for mates. If you look at it like that, it might actually be to the advantage of the Arn to allow the Hork-Bajir some level of competitive and genetic autonomy- the Arn haven't just created the Hork-Bajir, they've created an entire ecosystem built entirely around keeping them doing what they're doing. The more the Hork-Bajir are allowed to fit into that ecosystem, the healthier the trees, and the better off the Arn.

Provided no alien invaders show up.

If that felt like I was writing it as I thought about it, that's because I was