Humans of the future

[MoppingBear]

democracy is a system of government in which the people somehow decide who is in charge of leading them, the opposite of a monarchy.  communism is a monetary system in which all people are treated as equal, effectively everyone earns the same amount of money no matter what, or in some cases instead of money, you actually just get what you need in stuff.  the opposite is capatilism.  therefore, they are perfectly compatible, without needing to tweak anything.  no of course, humans are greedy, and thats why communism doesnt work, but its not inherently bad.  chances are, the world will never fully unify, even against a space threat, but i can definitely see earth nations becoming friendlier with each other as we start reaching out into space.  at the same time, those that dont want to unify will be able to settle on their own planet.  as for the morphing power, well the ramifications of that are far more complicated, especially since until the technology is duplicated, we only have what 6 blue boxes to go around?

[voodooqueen126]

I don't really think the Andalite system of government is ideal: indeed the fact that it seems that each family produces a little bit (heat parts or whatever) and this is combined with others, now this could be okay: rather like having a family business or it could be an aspect of an intrusive state the controls people and tells them that they must do something for the greater good, rather than doing what is best for them personally. This is a reduction in individual liberty if your job is state ordained.  and I think the Andalite one world government only works because Andalites are a mono-cultural species: they don't have racial or religious differences that make smaller nations (the awful divisions of which you speak) necessary. Perhaps this state of mono cultural one world government was achieved by killing minorities...
It is unjust to treat everyone 'equal' why should people have everything taken away from them by an intrusive government that thinks it knows better than the individual and then give it someone who doesn't deserve it. Communism doesn't fail because people are selfish, communism fails because it is an unjust system. (people are still selfish, but autocratic systems allow the most selfish wicked people to get into power)
Democracy without capitalism merely becomes a series of organised coups: in a socialist system where the state controls wealth then political power becomes a matter of money (since employment/income spring from the state) it is also a finite resource as there are only so many bureaucrats that one needs (this is why most socialist parties increase the size of government bureacracies: to increase the number that they employ and therefore socialist leaning people), since access to the government ensures income there is a huge incentive to kill dissenters. this combined with the idealogists belief that there utopia justifies any tyranny (since idealogists: be they the Taliban, Fascists, or Communists believe they can make the world a perfect place if only their ideas were implemented)because all dissenters (people who don't fit into their narrow autocratic world view) are preventing the fulfillment of this perfect utopian existence.  in a capitalist system wealth is separate from government control and increases infinitly (human capital and people employing each other creating more consumers (and i can't type properly because  i can't see whole box anymore.

[Aluminator (Kit)]

I honestly don't see any form of government being able to retain control over an interstellar empire. Humanity, when given z-space technology, would spread to the stars and try to colonize every planet they could get their hands on. A central government might work for a while, but eventually the populations of distant systems are going to get larger, and they're not going to want to be run by a bureaucracy or dictatorship (or whatever) on a distant planet (Earth) with no real concept of what their situation is. I simply cannot fathom a realistic government with the resources and organization to keep control on such immense scales.

By the time humanity reaches that point we may have moved beyond nations and become more unified as a people, or you might still have the Japanese competing with the Americans out there. Either way, I see colonies discarding central Earth control and becoming more independent- how violent this time would be depends on the regime(s) in power at that point, but eventually I see humanity becoming basically a collection of independent nations spread across as many star systems as we can get our hands on, with a capitalist-type economic system that somewhat resembles the global trade system today.

The Andalites can remain unified, true, but I get the feeling that nearly all Andalites live on their home planet. The Yeerks can remain unified, but they all have basically the same goal in mind (hosts), and they seem to be good at considering the future. Humans are shortsighted, curious to a fault, and would likely be very a expansionist people in space. The Andalites, the Skrit Na, the Taxxons, the remaining Yeerks- none of them reproduce or advance fast enough to keep up with us, apparently, so I see them all becoming little more than minor players in a dramatic human-dominated galaxy. Such a future might be a couple hundred years from the end of the series, but that's really where I see it going. That's actually a little depressing...

Haha... oh, I made myself sad 

[voodooqueen126]

And there is nothing wrong with human colonies breaking away from the mother planet: would you rather have America ruled by the british empire in a centralised government that everyone seems to aspire to here (because empires are so much fun) or would you rather have the colonies split off (either violently if the home country is foolish) or peacefully remain members of a commonwealth?
Having said that Earth future would be bright (lots of colonies to put our excessive number of people: mono-cultural planets and therefore fewer wars, technology leading to a breakdown of state power and state control and therefore more political and economic freedom (ie more capitalism therefore more wealth more wealth equals greater political freedom) ...
For the first 50 or so years Earth would stil be that sh---y third world planet that everybody would give aid to and be frightened to visit anywhere but the West (and aliens would start assuming that all humans are  Americans lol)

[Aluminator (Kit)]

voodooqueen, it sounds so much more optimistic coming from you than it did in my head. Thanks for the uplift ^_^

So... is it possible for humanity escape capitalism? Is a communist economic structure even feasible long term? Or is it always destined to be replaced by a capitalism at some point? Would it be possible to plan a communism that could stand the test of time? Or are universes like the one in Star Trek destined to remain science fiction forever?

[ThinkAgain]

voodooqueen, it sounds so much more optimistic coming from you than it did in my head. Thanks for the uplift ^_^

So... is it possible for humanity escape capitalism? Is a communist economic structure even feasible long term? Or is it always destined to be replaced by a capitalism at some point? Would it be possible to plan a communism that could stand the test of time? Or are universes like the one in Star Trek destined to remain science fiction forever?

It is impossible for complete communism to survive in a large and educated society. The simple fact is that human nature forbids it. To advance, humans need two things: motivation and competition. In capitalism, humans are motivated to work harder, in an effort to gain more wealth to care for themselves, as well as friends and family, and possibly in pursuit of more philanthropic goals if enough wealth is gained. Also in capitalism, humans are in direct competition with each other - there's only so much money in circulation at any given time, and a person needs to get ahead if they want to succeed. It's pretty basic really; think back to school. Would anyone really care to strive for high grades if every student got into Harvard for free no matter what? Humans naturally want to meet or exceed the standings of their peers. It can't be ignored that capitalism sustains one of the darker and often inalienable aspects of humanity - greed.

Communism only works in two situations, and even then it is not guaranteed. They are in very small communities (usually less than 100) and in a society where the citizens are completely ignorant and uneducated, little more than manual labor for the educated elite. The small communities aspect only works because everyone in the group personally knows everyone else, which discourages thievery and laziness, as people who hurt the community can be easily ostracized. Also, people can trust each other, as no one will be a stranger. Either way, this is more commonly known as tribalism as opposed to communism simply because the small numbers are reminiscent of the Native American and Mongol tribes. The other method, having an ignorant and uneducated society, is doomed because it stifles creativity and innovation, nearly halting advancement in the country - not to mention it is cruel and a violation of human rights. Either way, it is inevitable the society will figure out on its own the corrupt nature of its government, leading to revolt and rebellion.

[anijen21]

actually I just read an interesting thing...on tvtropes djmp...about the reason the star trek economy works, and it's not some idealism but a lack of scarcity, which is really economic principle #1. People want unlimited things but have only limited resources to achieve them. So Star Trek, I guess, is a society where scarcity is no longer applicable--canon seems to attribute that to Zefram Cochrane, who invented warp drive, which really doesn't make sense (I mean, you may have unlimited money but no one has unlimited time, and that's probably the even more vital resource), but the fact of the matter is anyone in Star Trek can get whatever they want whenever they want it. If every school was "Harvard," both in terms of name and quality, then yeah, everyone could get a Harvard education.

So the question we need to be asking ourselves is--in the Animorphs universe, are there enough resources compared to the amount of sapient, competing life forms, to eliminate scarcity? My answer is no. And to be honest, I think Star Trek got it wrong. There is always scarcity. I think Hitchhiker's Guide got it right, where the wealth of the universe got so great that people were just designing their own planets, but it still cost a lot of money.

[adeon222]

Ever seen the TV series Firefly? That's sorta what I envision the universe being like if humanity expands into the galaxy... Throw in the other species into the mix, and you have an Animorphs universe, post-54...

The world is moving toward one-world government, and has been for a while... Whether or not it's a good idea is up for debate... I think that the revelations following the war would make it infinitely easier for this government to be established... (the foreign policy decisions regarding aliens, the difficulties introduced by more powerful weapons on the black market, unrest with anti-alien fanatics, and terrorist groups looking to grind an axe...)

Once that one-world government is established (I think it would resemble the U.N... adding common monetary systems, etc...), I think that it would work closely in peace with the Andalites indefinitely...

The government, probably very socialistic to begin with, would quickly turn more and more so, aggravating more and more terrorist and seperatist groups, which would find their refuge in the rest of the galaxy, colonizing other planets and roaming free as much as possible...

These groups would be constantly viewed as a danger by the rest of the galaxy, including the earth government... which would do it's best in cooperation with the Andalites to bring these rogue groups (however peacful the group) into compliance with the collective galactic agenda...

This would cause constant small scale civil war, in which the Andalite-assisted Human government would have a significant edge... And there would be "good guys" and "bad guys" on both sides... some evil people... some evil Andalites, Yeerks, HBs, etc... And you would have your terrorist groups... your freedom fighters... your peaceful communities just trying to be left alone caught in the crossfire between a demanding, opressive (or an enlightened, caring) powerful government and uncooperative, terroristic (or heroic, freedom-loving) independence groups...

But, overall, I think this is a comperable situation to the one that Earth is in now... And life for the average citizen of the alliance will be significantly improved by the technological advances...

[Shock]

so whos writing the fanfic where 5 andalite teenagers and 1 hork bajir team up to stop the human invasion of the andalite homeworld?

lol Good idea

i've actually had an idea like this a long time ago. basically the andalites created a self fulling prophecy by startling to try to limit human technology (humans starting to smuggle dracon beams and working on them) via harsh import laws. needless to say, it doesn't work out that well. humans improve them, we start getting militant (we are only together when we have someone to fight against) and when we create our own equalization to morphing technology, the andalites start preparing for war and humans do likewise.

i have the fiction up on the RAF but i haven't messed with it since i was in junior high... 

[voodooqueen126]

Why do people feel that capitalism is something to be outgrown? it is a terrible system-except that it is better than all the others.
the problem with communism is that it doesn't give you a harvard education to which you don't need to compete for, it gives you TAFE on a bad day (which is why the communist world basically stole off America's technological achievements-not only was there no need for competition (because getting into something depended on your contacts with the party) but the university you got into was not as good as an american university (for all the european snobery about Americans, americans are quite smart: i remember watching communist and then american capitalist advertisements: the communist one was pure propaganda appealing to the emotions and man's baser instincts, whilst the american advertisement was informative and made the essential point that joining an -ism will not fix all the world's problems)
even in the example of the primitive society communism did not work-because all people still lived in meagre poverty, in capitalism people get what they work for-only the lazy and stupid are poor. (frankly this is why my boyfriend won't give to beggars-he says in australia if you become poor it is all your drinking and drug use that you have inflicted on yourself)
the least worst outcome (short of Earth keeping her nation states independence and each earth country having her own colonies) would be for earth to adopt a modified American system: my father argues that America' s president is really only a glorified foreign minister, since the actual running of America is done by the states, so perhaps Earth could elect someone (these elections would need to be rigged to prevent communist china from winning the election every single time due to high population) to deal with all that alien business (a glorified minister of aliens) and every nation could maintain its national sovereignty.

[MoppingBear]

because none of the things youve mentioned are inherently part of communism.  you mentioned china, which is tecnically communist, has great education, and is the 3rd largest economy in the world, and still rising.  communism doesnt work because people are lazy and greedy.  thats why capitalism is something to outgrow, because in order to do so, we have to outgrow laziness and greed and a host of other negative qualities (which will likely never happen)

[ThinkAgain]

because none of the things youve mentioned are inherently part of communism.  you mentioned china, which is tecnically communist, has great education, and is the 3rd largest economy in the world, and still rising.  communism doesnt work because people are lazy and greedy.  thats why capitalism is something to outgrow, because in order to do so, we have to outgrow laziness and greed and a host of other negative qualities (which will likely never happen)

I hate to break it to you, but China's recent massive growth (passed fifteen to twenty years are so) began when it allowed limited capitalism and importation of western jobs. Back when it was 100% communist... Just read about the Great Leap Forward. It pretty much tells you how bad it got.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Or read about the economy before the 80's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#1949.E2.80.931980

Pure communism will never work, because it stifles individualism and a few hundred - or thousand - people can't hope to understand the needs of millions, leading to collapse.

I still agree though. If there's a one world government, you can bet it will be socialist, although probably not hardcore communism. Still, everything will be socialized and there will be significant redistribution of wealth. One world government cannot exist on Earth. It will never succeed; there's too many people with too many different values. Either people will rebel, or they will be stifled/put down by force. It can't be democratic, because nations with large populations will be able to consistently one side elections (For example, China can outvote America three times over). It will likely be based of a multiple layer representative system, but by the time one gets to the top, they will be so separated from the public that they will have no connections to the needs of the people whatsoever.

I feel it will take a few thousand years, hundreds of generations of racial mixing and either no religion or a one world religion before we can even peaceably attempt one world government. Unless we get another Hitler/Stalin, except the new guy is successful. That could give one world government in a few years, but it would be extremely oppressive and nukes would be fired.

Either way though, once humans get into space, they will make many colonies and take many resources - by force if needed. Humans are naturally greedy and want power, so its inevitable. Even if the public isn't aware of it, governments will be sending armed forces into space when they can and know of intelligent life.

[Shock]

Why do people feel that capitalism is something to be outgrown? it is a terrible system-except that it is better than all the others.

people say that because it really a terrible system. a small group of people live off the backs of the majority of the others and the system is both unstable (bubbles and depressions) and especially harsh to the members of the bottom layers of the rugs.

the problem with all the other systems is that they are basically one party systems and do not allow other points of view to be expressed.

however the point remains, if there is a better system that does not favor the elite, would we change from it?

[Azguard]

 awesome ideas so far! and interesting discussion on governments. hope you guys don't mind if i go back to the topic and share a little bit of my own opinion.
 

 I think the first 50-100 years will be what Terenia (teach/jess) said it will be like with only a few people enjoying the advances in technology. Where I believe will be the difference is the 100 years after that.

 Once we start conquering space and landing colonies I see the civil wars erupting, the disputes, simply because history has shown that before. I believe Andalite and Human relations will start out a bit like the relationship between the U.S. and China right now, with the Andalites being the U.S. and being weary of a growing economic and military power in the humans (china) wanting not to stir things up but also jealously watching a rising power. The human factions will probably try and recruit andalite help in their battles, though I can see the Andalites taking a pacifist or closed approach to everything that's going on.

 The immediate short-term difference I think will be what the Andalites do next. If they interfere I can see it getting nasty. I can also see humans playing politics as they become stronger in the galaxy and allying with different alien races. I can also see, that if the Andalites push too hard, an eventual united human front against a common enemy (a la humanity against buggers in ender's game) spurred and helped by rapid improvements in communications technology. Human factions not wanting to fight will probably be either ignored, or eliminated.


 Now the final act, and I believe this is where it gets really really interesting.... is what will eventually, and maybe inevitably, happen. The Human expansion, with or without Andalite intervention, will most likely encroach and approach Kelbrid space. Humanity would then face a united, two-prong, front against an Andalite/Kelbrid alliance (plus whoever else they are dragging along)

[Serraph105]

adaptive comes to mind. Considering the number of times Ax marveled at how fast humans seemmed to change for the situation at hand.