Jake

[Kelly]

Jake's hot
At least I've always imagined him to be...

[visser101]

It was 53. ^^

At the beginning of the American Civil War
both sides thought the war was about taking or
holding cities and ports and rivers and mountain
passes. They thought it was a chess game.

By the end of the war they'd figured out that
they weren't playing chess. Cities didn't matter
much. Ports and rivers and mountain passes,
while useful, were secondary to the real game.

The real game was destruction.

Lincoln had figured it out earlier than most
and his generals; Ulysses S. Grant, William Tecumseh
Sherman, and Philip Sheridan made it
happen.

They burned enemy homes and farms. They
burned crops in the field and slaughtered farm
animals and wrapped railroad tracks around
trees. They starved the enemy.

They realized that warfare was no longer
about chivalry and honor, but about killing
the enemy. Find the enemy, kill the enemy.
Kill so many of them that those who are left
alive lose their will to fight on. Do whatever it
takes.

That's the way war has been ever since.

I never realized what was being said there, but re reading it really highlights how little understanding of history and the nature of war KAA has.

almost makes me rethink my current view that she came too hate anifans and crafted the ending to hurt as many of us as possible.

[Terenia]

It was 53. ^^

At the beginning of the American Civil War
both sides thought the war was about taking or
holding cities and ports and rivers and mountain
passes. They thought it was a chess game.

By the end of the war they'd figured out that
they weren't playing chess. Cities didn't matter
much. Ports and rivers and mountain passes,
while useful, were secondary to the real game.

The real game was destruction.

Lincoln had figured it out earlier than most
and his generals; Ulysses S. Grant, William Tecumseh
Sherman, and Philip Sheridan made it
happen.

They burned enemy homes and farms. They
burned crops in the field and slaughtered farm
animals and wrapped railroad tracks around
trees. They starved the enemy.

They realized that warfare was no longer
about chivalry and honor, but about killing
the enemy. Find the enemy, kill the enemy.
Kill so many of them that those who are left
alive lose their will to fight on. Do whatever it
takes.

That's the way war has been ever since.

I never realized what was being said there, but re reading it really highlights how little understanding of history and the nature of war KAA has.

almost makes me rethink my current view that she came too hate anifans and crafted the ending to hurt as many of us as possible.

Actually, Michael Grant (KA's husband) helped out quite a bit with that book, and he's a really big history buff, especially with the Civil War.

[KOFSoldier]

I don't know, I think she got it right. Let's be honest, in wars, those who destroy the most, usually win.

I still love Animorphs to this day, and would give my spleen for a sequel. I think part of the reason I feel that way was because it was so believable (well, as believable as possible considering it was 6 kids fighting off a global scale invasion).

[visser101]

Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.

[Starsword]

The Powell Doctrine states that you should use overwhelming force. It intimidates, destroys and forces people to back down. My point being that the use of overwhelming force is still relevant and destruction is still an ends.

[Terenia]

Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.

I don't think that the second example, slow infiltration of ideas, is really applicable here. That isn't warfare, that's propagands. The first idea, forcing people with "bad" (which is a misnomer, I think) ideas to submit, fits in with the idea of total destruction. In the end, those who refuse to submit must be destroyed, or else you will never win. Hence the 'Kill so many of them that those who are left alive lose their will to fight on. Do whatever it
takes' mentality.

Look at the recent war in Iraq. The US didn't start the war by infiltrating an idea slowly, it bombed the hell out of Baghdad and THEN started to try and impose democracy on the Iraqi people. Destruction first, conversion later.

[OrcaMorph]

Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.

Modern war isn't about ideology, although we would be led to believe so, but it might be used to mobilize public support.  It's actually about resources and/or power.  We need oil to survive, and the middle east is our supply.  As long as our standard of living depends on oil, we'll be in the middle east.

[Shock]

Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.

Modern war isn't about ideology, although we would be led to believe so, but it might be used to mobilize public support.  It's actually about resources and/or power.  We need oil to survive, and the middle east is our supply.  As long as our standard of living depends on oil, we'll be in the middle east.

that entire depends if how people fight it.

it is symmetrical war (where each side can has physical powerbase), then yes, it is about power/resources.

however, in Asymmetrical war, it becomes something more. the enemy isn't dead as long as they have someone else to pick up the torch once the older generation is either dead, kill, or captured. it becomes more a vigil on the part of the victor to keep a look out for these followers.

[Starsword]

I like that Jake wanted to be a fighter pilot before the war. He already knew he would rock.

[visser101]

Starsword
Destruction is a means to the end, if it wasn’t then we would simply drop nukes or MOABs in the middle of cities.

Terenia
The United States has been the Vanguards of an Ideological war that has been raging worldwide for 300+ years. Only after WW2 did we take active role in this war too stop the spread Communism, we did ok for 50 years but in the last 20 years we have lost considerable ground. And yes destruction is a tool used in the first method if you lack the power and/or will to walk in and take control then you hammer those people into the ground till you can. As for Iraq we had plenty of chances to reshape that country without invading and did nothing, in fact some could say we sabotaged efforts that could have lead to a democratic Iraq.

Had KAA not been so hell bent on ending the war as disgusting and pointlessly as possible (to highlight on disgusting and pointless rl war is in her view) she may have been able too craft an ending with far more meaning and power. Yes, war is not something to glorify, it costly and wasteful, but never is a war pointless. We may not like the points later on or find new information that invalidates those points, but never is it pointless.

[Terenia]

So it isn't pointless to murder tens of thousands of people in Darfur because of an oil grudge (and a crazy leader)? That's a war that has left countless dead and more refugees, and I see no point to that.

The point of the Crusades was the spread of Christianity and acquisition of land (among other things). A rather pointless reason to wage war, if you ask me.

The war on Iraq was waged for multiple reasons, most of which I consider quite pointless.

Even the Civil War was not waged for the purpose of abolishing slavery. It was one of the better outcomes of the war, but it was not the reason that the war was waged.

I have a feeling that we merely have ideological differences here, visser, because I see no point in most wars (note the emphasis on most. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule). I think we may have to agree to disagree there.

Perhaps with the outcome of certain conflicts good does arise, but it is good arising from the ashes of tens of thousands dead over a struggle that is based in the ideology of a select few.

[visser101]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill

in Darfur the killing has a point we my not agree or understand but it serves someones goals. the fact that so many people have been affected means more then one crazy leader also sees the point, or at least sees a means too their own goals.

My understanding of the Crusades was the Pope wanted to get the rest of Europe to stop fighting each other so he told them too retake the holy land. He forgot too tell them were it was and how too get there so most Crusades ended in the middle of nowhere thousands of miles from the target. it may seem pointless to us but those men did have their reasons none they considered pointless.

15-0 the U.N.S.C. said Iraq had M.W.D.s and were looking to build nukes only the U.S.A. was willing too do something about it. LUCKY for us many Terrorists went there to die instead of coming here AND the Middle East maybe seeing the first Democracy in its histroy...

Abolishing slavery was a weapon Abraham Lincoln use against the South, the civil war was a fight over the Fundamental Nature of the United States if that wasn't worth fighting for then what in this world is?

In my mind calling a war pointless is calling the people that suffered and died in it worthless. We look back at history to learn lessons for the future but we can not judge the people for their perceived failings because with out them WE would be the ones paying for those lessons.

if tens of thousands die because of the ideas of a select few then someone should have been paying more attention.

P.S. sorry for highhacking this thread Jake is one of my Fav book chars and that ending made him seem worthless. i still feel a bit sore when i think about it.

[Terenia]

Ah, I think I misunderstood you. Apologies.

I am aware that all war has some point, to someone. I was commenting on the fact that often times the point is pointless. For example: the forcing of religion on others is a point that many believe in, but I find to be disgusting.

Similarly, you don't have to fight in a war to have something worth fighting for. There have been many peaceful protests throughout the years (Ghandi? MLK Jr. anyone?) and I would never say that those people were miserable for avoiding violence.

Also, those who fight in wars are brave people, no matter what side they are fighting on. Whether or not I agree with their reasons for fighting I admire their courageousness and dedication.

Now, of course, in the Animorphs fight there was no choice but to go to war. The war came to them, and it was a cause that the Yeerks believed in heartily. I do think that the way that Jake came out of it sucked, and the ending itself was rather disheartening, but quite often war is disheartening (like in Iraq...we didn't actually find any WMD's, which lead quite a few people to question the war itself). Still, the ending of Animorphs, while not ideal, did lead to a win.

I think I may have disliked the ending even more if it left off with them slapping a high-five and strolling away. Jake had to suffer like he did. After he went through all of that? I don't think that there was anything else for him...

[visser101]

It is all relative, what if you are forcing your beliefs on a people that kill thousands, the lucky ones only forced too watch their still beating heart eaten before they die?

peaceful protests only work if the other side is too nice to kill you or the threat of violence is too great a risk. Talk Softly But Carry A Big Stick

The biggest issue with the end is KAA forced the story too fit it. Instead of an epic struggle between Animorph and yeerk she tied one of Jake's hand behind his back, bashed a knee with a lead pipe and, used his family against him. the Yerkes changed little and seemed only intent was too cause trouble till the animorphs could beat them.

Ya them walking away high-fives all around would have been a worst ending, but only if you kept the rest of the ending the same.

oh they did find MWDs in Iraq, i have not been able to find the details for some reason Bush never made noise about them but some were found.