Animorphs and religion

[Yarin]

Shouldn't Jake be going to Mass?

Jake and possibly Rachel are Jewish

[voodooqueen126]

I would like to learn about the different religions of the aliens.  The hork bajir had an interesting one.

Their religion is just standard nature worship, even more simple than aboriginal mythology. I would be very interested to find out about Yeerk religion (the Kandrona seems like a god to them) and how Andalite religion has adapted to the vast scientific knowledge.

[Chad32]

I could see the Yeerks having a Sun God. Maybe even a Water God too, since they're aquatic.

[voodooqueen126]

Qoheleth does a good portrayal of Yeerk religion. The funny thing about the yeerk worship of their sun, is that it is sort of like worshipping the corn rather than the corn goddess or the potato rather than the potato goddess, i could almost yeerks as being the ultimate materialists, even their spirituality is physical rather than abstract.
Another funny thing: the Animorphs view the lion morph as unlucky/evil, and Jake rather than having the typical lion/hero association has a tiger, a solitary animal often associated with evil (rather than the kingly pack animal lion), and the lion is another symbol of Jesus (Aslan anyone)... a huge number of media often have a strong christian worldview in the western world (conversely thai movies like Nang Nak have a buddhist subtext) though Harry Potter has a secular humanist/slightly Anglican worldview. I would say that the Animorphs is largely secular humanist in world view, but if there is a religious underpinning (subconsciously) then it might be the same as 'A Series of Unfortunate Events"... possibly?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ASeriesOfUnfortunateEvents

[animefanboy]

I read the blog post and was blown away, I now understand the connection people have between Animorphs and religion now. ...Now I am going to think of yeerks whenever I think of religion...is that wrong?

[voodooqueen126]

how so? What exacly blew you away?

[crystalclear]

Now maybe this has been mentioned, I didn't read through the whole thread, sorry, but Father and The One reminds me a LOT of Christianity.

[Alex Oiknine]

Shouldn't Jake be going to Mass?

Jake and possibly Rachel are Jewish

No they're not, or more correctly, we really have no idea if they are or aren't. Their fathers are Jewish (as noted in the MM with the messed up realty). We have no evidence they live a Jewish lifestyle, but Judaism traditionally only considers you Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Treating someone as Jewish based on the ridiculous notion of "bloodlines" -any bloodline - is what the Nazis did. Which made sense because in that book they were living in a world where the people in power were highly prejudiced, highly discriminatory, very controlling.

They could be Reconstructionist or Reform, but we have no evidence of that - in order for them to be so, they would have had to be raised in a Jewish lifestyle - classes, bar/bat mitzvah, confirmation, synagogue, etc., etc. Those movements only accept one as Jewish if a person is actively raised Jewish. There's no mention of a Jewish lifestyle, just that "My dad's Jewish, but he's a Patriot of State." It's the only reference we get, ever, and it's not enough to determine being Jewish or not. I would assume because of the lack of reference to Judaism or whatever their mothers practice that they're probably non-observant in both. Which just effectively makes them not really Jewish or anything else their parents might identify is.

Further, we don't know that for sure. Why is Jake's father Jewish? I mean, does he identify as Jewish, or is it because that skewed world has the concept that if you have "even a drop" of Jewish blood in them that a person is Jewish? For all we know, his father is Jewish five or six generations back on his father's side. We don't know because we don't have an adequate understanding of that world. I don't remember anything pinning both of his grandparents as Jewish (or even one?) so it could be that sort of reality.

Basically, we have no idea what they are.

Sorry, but this is one of my pet peeves when something that has no evidence one way or another becomes mainstream thought. My father's Jewish, but I'm not - by any movement, because I wasn't raised Jewish so even those that accept the father being Jewish don't accept me as such without conversion. I've been converting for over four years because I keep having to move before I can get to Beit Din and mikveh. It's a very long time to know more than most adults there (because I have adult education whereas they have child education) and not be able to participate in services as an actual part of the minyan and other things.

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Now, for the rest... You know, religious people can be scary. It really depends on how it's used, and when people think their truth has to be clear to everyone else - even those with a different truth - that's when I start getting really, really concerned. Especially when it starts getting put ahead of reality, or used to try to control or force others to do things, or values are tied in with some religions but not others.

But religion can be really helpful for others, helping them out of drug/alcohol issues, depression, anxiety... You know, DBT - a treatment for anxiety disorders - was actually based off of Buddhist concepts. I use Judaism similarly - the rituals and traditions give me a really strict order of how my day should go, which helps me remember things, stay calm, etc., etc. On a personal scale like that, it doesn't have to be a bad thing - I just don't like it when people try to make the whole world fit under one bubble of logic. Because, well, it doesn't work.  And it's even worse when people think faith will solve all their problems or the world's problems. I just can never understand that mode of thought, and I think that was the issue of The Sharing and other things - it's never safe to believe that something can take away your problems. You have to know it takes patience and also being responsible for yourself.

[Kotetsu1442]

Now maybe this has been mentioned, I didn't read through the whole thread, sorry, but Father and The One reminds me a LOT of Christianity.

Similar lines of thought have already been voiced in this thread, but really I disagree. Father/The One is pretty much just another take on the Borg or more generally 'assimilating races' in sci-fi, of which there are numerous examples; which races are never really regarded as a metaphor for Christianity or organized religion in general. There's more merit to the past thoughts in this thread about The Sharing as a metaphor for organized religion, but I'd rather not get into attempting to discuss that unless those who were a part of this thread before were still interested in discussing the topic.

Jake and possibly Rachel are Jewish

No they're not, or more correctly, we really have no idea if they are or aren't. Their fathers are Jewish... We have no evidence they live a Jewish lifestyle, but Judaism traditionally only considers you Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Treating someone as Jewish based on the ridiculous notion of "bloodlines" -any bloodline - is what the Nazis did. Which made sense because in that book they were living in a world where the people in power were highly prejudiced, highly discriminatory, very controlling.

...I mean, does he identify as Jewish, or is it because that skewed world has the concept that if you have "even a drop" of Jewish blood in them that a person is Jewish?

I understand that in the context of the previous conversation it is worth correcting the statement that "Jake and possibly Rachel are Jewish" and I understand, due to your statements such as

They could be Reconstructionist or Reform, but we have no evidence of that

, that you were discussing the the Jewish religion, and I agree with your central idea, that

Basically, we have no idea what they are.

But while I agree with your central point, a lot of your comments treat it as though it would be incorrect to say that someone is Jewish based on their linage. That is to say, I understand your perspective that explains the traditional definitions that specify  matrilineal descent, and halakhic conversions; but it is acceptable in modern secular terms to refer to someone as Jewish based on linage alone (matriarchal or not) and that this can denote a person of such descent without necessarily implying racist connotations and that Jewish identity is subjective and independent enough of religious belief that atheist or subscriber to another religion can still have Jewish identity as an ethnic heritage.

This isn't to say that I insist that everyone who has "even a drop of Jewish blood" is Jewish, but that it isn't a 'ridiculous notion' to believe someone can be Jewish strictly as a matter of descent (subject even to scientific observation of genetic evolutions independent of other ethnic groupings); that is simply another valid usage of the term, and though Jewish nationality, ethnicity and religious practice are often used with strict ties, the terms can be used independently. The ridiculous belief of the Nazis wasn't observing this descendancy, but was only in the belief that one particular ethnic descendancy was superior to others.

[Alex Oiknine]

But while I agree with your central point, a lot of your comments treat it as though it would be incorrect to say that someone is Jewish based on their linage. That is to say, I understand your perspective that explains the traditional definitions that specify matrilineal descent, and halakhic conversions; but it is acceptable in modern secular terms to refer to someone as Jewish based on linage alone (matriarchal or not) and that this can detonate a person of such descent without necessarily implying racist connotations and that Jewish identity is subjective and independent enough of religious belief that atheist or subscriber to another religion can still have Jewish identity as an ethnic heritage.

This isn't to say that I insist that everyone who has "even a drop of Jewish blood" is Jewish, but that it isn't a 'ridiculous notion' to believe someone can be Jewish strictly as a matter of descent (subject even to scientific observation of genetic evolutions independent of other ethnic groupings); that is simply another valid usage of the term, and though Jewish nationality, ethnicity and religious practice are often used with strict ties, the terms can be used independently. The ridiculous belief of the Nazis wasn't observing this descendancy, but was only in the belief that one particular ethnic descendancy was superior to others.

IMO, it is incorrect to say someone is Jewish based on their lineage unless they identify as Jewish on their own. Period. Unless they say they're Jewish, or you leave the aside that they are technically Jewish by halakhic standards, they should define whether or not they are so. If a person knows about matrilineal descent or the qualifying factors of what makes one Jewish and still refers to anyone who admits to having Jewish family as Jewish, than yes, I think there is a problem with that. People I know who do not identify with Judaism but are referred to by random people as "Jewish" or "half-Jews" don't really appreciate it. Likewise, those of us who identify as Jews often have to put a lot of work into being into being identified as Jews - and will never be recognized by all denominations. The thing is, what you are describing refers to ethnic associations, and ethnic associations are very dependent on what a person is raised as and identifies as. In the MM where Jake says his father is Jewish he makes no reference to himself. Further, if someone is Jewish 2, 3, 5 generations back there is a high likeliness they do not really identify as having Jewish ethnicity. Many atheists and agnostics may identify as ethnically Jewish (I know and am a part of this general circle), but this is generally a choosing alliance.

We have no idea whether they would identify as Jewish in any way in their version of "the real world" because in the alternate timeline we don't know what the definition of "Jewish" is by that society - it could easily be they have some Jewish relative somewhere up the line on their father's side. Doesn't mean they identify that way, nor does it mean they've had any Jewish lifestyle for maybe even decades. So I think the "ethnically Jewish/background of being related to Jewish people" point is rather moot here. There is no point referring to them as Jewish even in the ethnic sense because the definition of Jewish was in a timeline where being Jewish probably just had the Nazi-definition of Jewish. Which was my (perhaps poorly stated) point.

Moving on, I don't see where the ethnic point would become relevant even if it was in their regular universe of affiliations. Fact is, most people assume they are religious Jews, or at least technically belonging to the Jewish religion. It used to be on the Wikipedia page, if it isn't still. I've encountered the attitude enough on LiveJournal. The idea of "ethnic Judaism" isn't very present in mainstream society - you usually have to explain the idea of being "ethnically Jewish." It's one thing to say a person has Jewish heritage, it's another thing to say a person's Jewish without someone saying it themselves - even if you know they have a Jewish parent or grandparent. I mean, even with a Jewish parent my knowledge in Judaism was so limited I could hardly consider myself as having had a Jewish heritage or cultural background - I had to come to it later. Was I genetically related to Jewish people? Yes. Did that make me a Jew? Clearly not. Certainly, no one who knew me ever called me Jewish, and I would have felt bad identifying as such because of my overall ignorance to the religion, culture, and history.  Only someone basing my entire spiritual/religious/cultural identity off of my father's identity in those realms would ever have done so. And I mean, that would have been silly, because my mother had done a good job making sure I identified as nothing but Roman Catholic back then.

To be honest, I don't even like getting into the debate of ethnic Judaism/Jewish heritage versus being Jewish with Gentiles, I mean, unless they actually want to learn about it in at least some depth. I have to explain on a semi-frequent basis that Jesus wasn't a prophet in Judaism. You know, that Jews don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Or I mean, differing interpretations between Christianity and Judaism regarding the Bible because we have the Talmud and other factors interpreting how we should read those things. The "who is a Jew?" debacle is complicated enough for people who actually study Judaism. For people who aren't into that discussion? "Jewish father does not inherently make one a Jew" is enough of a statement as is, in my opinion. Otherwise, we could be here for a long, looooooong time. Let's face it - these issues are decades old among Jewish scholars.

Edit: Dang, sorry for the Wall of Text.

[Myitt]

Discussing this with Dave...we'll see if he posts

For my part, I always saw Animorphs as distinctly non-religious, even if creatures within it had a belief in a higher power (Eva, the Hork-Bajir, The Sharing--good points on religion and mind control). 

And personally, I think the Yeerks were the least religious of all.  The closest that we ever get to a discussion of anything like religion for them is the Ellimist saying in #7 that the Kandrona was the center of their lives, "almost a religion"...but not quite.  Their cynicism and extremely logical/scientific nature, to me, point toward atheism. 

Plus they may not take away free will, but they take away the ability to act freely...kind of "where is your god now?" thing.  Snarky bastards XD

[Kotetsu1442]

IMO, it is incorrect to say someone is Jewish based on their lineage unless they identify as Jewish on their own. Period.

That's just it, it isn't a matter of opinion. The modern definition of the word includes three groups, converts to Judaism, those born and raised in a Jewish family and those who Jewish ancestral background or lineage; the third definition does not denote or imply any religious beliefs or affiliation, it is purely a descriptive term. In Jeaneane Fowler's World Religions: An Introduction for Students she mentioned these possible distinctions within the introduction then specified that her use of the word Jewish was limited to followers of Judaism as opposed to the other acknowledged definitions; and in his studies of ethnic psychology the rabbi and scholar Adolf Jellinek also mentioned these distinct definitions specifying that he was focusing on those who identify with the ethnicity in Der jüdische Stamm, so these different definitions were already mutually acceptable and required distinction by the mid-1800s (Der jüdische Stamm was published in 1869).

Perhaps I muddied the waters earlier by referring too much to those who identify with their Jewish heritage outside of religion as an ethnicity, and yes the first two definitions I just mentioned are open to the subjective interpretations of religious groups (or even governmental groups, such as Israel needing to define its meaning in their government for things like the Law of Return) and personal identification, but the third definition is an accepted denotation that is purely a matter of heritage. As the Jewish Encyclopedia puts it, along with traditional religious definitions:

In more modern usage the word is often applied to any person of the Hebrew race, apart from his religious creed.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=259&letter=J#ixzz0v0gxi2or

Usage of the word Jewish in this term isn't to subscribe to ideas of race inequality and racism, as the Nazis did, but merely to classify heritage based on ancestral groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics. Joseph Jacobs, the former President of the Jewish Historical Society of England and Corresponding Member of the Royal Academy of History, spent a lot of time in Studies in Jewish Statistics studying such characteristics as compared to different comparable European races.

Nor am I trying to say that such classification has never been used to racist ends, as it certainly has; even in a 20th century, post WWII society that condemns racism the use of the term Jewish has been given negative connotations, leading to people you know, as you say, to "not really appreciate" being referred to as Jewish and other derivative derogatory terms; but the point should be to remove such negative connotations not to deny a literal descriptive term.

I know what you mean from a religious and an ethnic perspective when you say:

"Jewish father does not inherently make one a Jew" is enough of a statement as is, in my opinion. Otherwise, we could be here for a long, looooooong time. Let's face it - these issues are decades old among Jewish scholars.

But while such a thing is an old and long debate from that perspective it is not "incorrect to say someone is Jewish based on their lineage."

[Myitt]

This might not be my place to say, but if Alex is Jewish by heritage, and decides that being Jewish has to do with personal decisions about her background regardless of Jewish heritage and religious practice (or lack of either, even)...then just let her believe that.  It is her opinion, no matter what scholars say.

[Alex Oiknine]

The problem with pulling out that third definition as fact is that it is constantly under debate, constantly under attack (Just like the first two... Heh). It is under debate and attack by the movements (Some Orthodox groups fighting to remove it, liberal groups accepting it but saying "it's the way of the dinosaur" or that it will cause the inevitable extinction of Judaism and shying away from calling someone with Jewish ancestry Jewish.) There are books, articles, essays, tons of opinion systems arguing against the idea of calling anyone with Jewish heritage Jewish. It's not exactly a 100% supported concept amongst scholars. I'd argue it's far from it.

Very few texts would actually encourage calling someone a Jew as a "sole matter of description" if they do not identify as Jewish, do not practice Judaism, have no Jewish education, or anything tying themselves to Jewish lifestyle whatsoever. Here we get having Jewish ancestry versus calling anyone with Jewish ancestry Jewish. If you're amongst a bunch of people educated about Judaism, the latter isn't that problematic, because you're probably with a bunch of other people who will have that understanding. Because even though I consider someone Jewish and to have a Jewish identity, I wouldn't say so outside of Jewish discussion, most specifically with other Jewish people. I would not say it around someone not Jewish with no education of Judaism. Some of my friends who are Jew By Birth - particularly those against the concept of matrilineal heritage - might push that idea on someone and tell them it's their own problem if they don't accept that definition (which I don't know, I kind of consider that disrespectful and sort of ironic for a variety of reasons by one of them in particular, but whatever, I understand the point). I even appreciate that they don't have an issue with me identifying as Jewish even though I have not formally finished conversion and have just been undergoing Jewish education a few years. But their attitude about non-Jews doing the same thing is generally "Mind your own business." Jewish identity being determined by non-Jews? Not that appreciated. I more or less feel the same way when non-Jews try to tell someone they're not Jewish because they do not meet the standards of Jewish halakhah - not their business.

Basically, there's no such thing as a definition of "who's Jewish" that isn't under heavy debate pretty much ever, and its relevance to the statement that "Rachel and Jake are Jewish" in response to "why don't they go to church?" would be technically incorrect. The assumption that their religion is Judaism is incorrect. Because we don't have enough information to know. No one is denying he has Jewish ancestry, but there's basically no evidence of him being a practicing Jew under any movement.

@ Myitt - I identify as Jewish, so I mean, this doesn't really apply to me so much as my siblings - I'm the only one that actually embraced Judaism - or other people I know with Jewish ancestry but no personal identification as such. I've also had this issue because sometimes the reason I am expected to explain core Jewish concepts with random people is because they are told by people with Jewish ancestry (who claim to be knowledgeable in Judaism) things that are just completely incongruent to Judaism.

As a result, my attitude about this issue can get a bit complicated. But none of my views are exactly unheard of. Let alone unrepresented in Jewish movements and definitions.

[crystalclear]

Now maybe this has been mentioned, I didn't read through the whole thread, sorry, but Father and The One reminds me a LOT of Christianity.

Similar lines of thought have already been voiced in this thread, but really I disagree. Father/The One is pretty much just another take on the Borg or more generally 'assimilating races' in sci-fi, of which there are numerous examples; which races are never really regarded as a metaphor for Christianity or organized religion in general. There's more merit to the past thoughts in this thread about The Sharing as a metaphor for organized religion, but I'd rather not get into attempting to discuss that unless those who were a part of this thread before were still interested in discussing the topic.

Maybe not the actual beings, but the name. The name "Father" and "The One" is being said lot in Christianity. Using one of them would be a coincidence, but having both names appear in Animorphs just had to mean something.