Author Topic: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."  (Read 7422 times)

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Offline Toc'

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2008, 12:06:22 PM »
Ahahah, I need a double translation  :P
Pink Piggy: Anyway, these are standard assumptions in economics. I have no problem with them. Quantum theory also seems weird but it is accepted, that is the way of science.
Brown Piggy: Quantum theory makes no claim about the motivations or welfare of quantum particles.
Pink Piggy: You just do not understand the mathematics involved. This is typical uninformed criticism of economics.



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Offline wildweathel

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2008, 12:40:32 PM »
Fictional?
Well...

Just because something is a metaphor doesn't mean it can't be real.
-- Death in Reaper Man by Terry Pratchett

We poets never tell the truth, except when we tell it in fables. ... These clockwork dolls will tell you the truth about me.
-- The Author in The Surprise by Gilbert K. Chesterton

But yes, there is a real Trouble, who really saved Weathel, whom Weathel really neglected, and who left for Army boot camp yesterday afternoon. I'll miss him.

Oh, the Engineers, how I hate to even think about them!  But, yet I should, because someone must stand against them.

*takes out soap-box, begins declaming*

Behold, their own words damn them!


I believe that the child should be stimulated and controlled in his work through the life of the community. ...

The Engineer is first and foremost a creature of control.

I believe that education cannot be unified in the study of science, ... because apart from human activity, nature itself is not a unity; ... and to attempt to make it the centre of work by itself, is to introduce a principle of radiation rather than one of concentration. ...

He believes humanity is alone in a sea of chaos.  To him there is no joy in nature--it may not be appreciated as a work of art, nor the subject of sincere study, and he must beat the child from his wonder, lest he be distracted chasing butterflies.

I believe that literature is the reflex expression and interpretation of social experience; that hence it must follow upon and not precede such experience.

This "social experience" is the deity of the Engineer.  Everything outside of humanity is mere chaos, and man himself only has meaning by being part of the organic whole.  Thus, literature is only valuable as an expression of social events. 

I believe that the only way to make the child conscious of his social heritage is to enable him to perform those fundamental types of activity which makes civilization what it is.

I believe, therefore, in the so-called expressive or constructive activities as the centre of correlation.

I believe that this gives the standard for the place of cooking, sewing, manual training, etc., in the school.

I believe that the study of science is educational in so far as it brings out the materials and processes which make social life what it is.

The Engineer makes the school first and foremost a place of social training.  Man only has value in his performance of socially-assigned roles.  Outside of them there is no human dignity, no valuable knowledge, no beautiful art.  School is like a factory: it enables the workers to take on their social roles.  The schoolmaster has one important difference from the sweatshop foreman, though: in the end the foreman can point to his goods and say "behold, I at least made my customers happy."  The schoolmaster has nothing to answer for him but broken souls.

I believe that the art of thus giving shape to human powers and adapting them to social service, is the supreme art; one calling into its service the best of artists; that no insight, sympathy, tact, executive power is too great for such service.
 
I believe, finally, that the teacher is engaged, not simply in the training of individuals, but in the formation of the proper social life.

Human beings, to the Engineers, are like ants.  Except that, unlike ants they have this unfortunate tendency called individualism.   Some waste their time staring off into the sunset, or climbing mountains, or displaying photographs of clouds without a suitably educational message underneath, or worshiping imaginary friends.

I believe that every teacher should realize the dignity of his calling; that he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of proper social order and the securing of the right social growth.

Therefore, there is the role of special ants, the engineers, who maintain "proper social order," guide "social growth," who "stimulate and control."  Their control is not most effective when it is punitive, rather they rule through isolation, carefully crafted assumptions and world-views.  They're smarter than the rest of us.  And, God help us.  They have our children.

I believe that in this way the teacher always is the prophet of the true God and the usherer in of the true kingdom of God.

-- John Dewey, "My Pedagogic Creed"

But who is this "true God" of Dewey?  Is he the God who asked Adam to name the creatures, and gave him dominion over creation.  Is he the same God who, when He needed to make a point to humanity turned to the rainbow, the mountaintop, the stormy sea, the wildflowers?  Before him am I "wonderfully, fearfully made?"  Is he the One who carved us in the palm of his hand?

No.  The engineers may believe they serve God.  Let us search our history, though.  In it, in ancient Carthage, we find a people who considered their children their most precious resource.  So precious in fact, that in worshiping Ba'al Hammon, sacrificing their most precious resource, they burnt their own children to death.  Delenda est Carthago!

What they do is evil, and, by the grace of God I HATE IT.

Part 2 to follow soon.
Kony 2012
arrest the worst


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Offline Toc'

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2009, 05:07:38 AM »
Perfect, and I still don't know who the engineers are ^^ Maybe they are just nobody in particular ^^

 
I feel like reading some kind of philophical poetry and i'm so confused.

I mean, it's the way it's all put together... It really confuses me.

Can't you express your ideas more clearly despite you desire for not being a conformist or a cog of the system^^

You know, being understood by others can be nice sometimes... Otherwise, if nobody understands you... well you're just talking with yourself  :P



(well, maybe i'm the only one who doesn't understand, in that case i beg your pardon for this post ^^)
Pink Piggy: Anyway, these are standard assumptions in economics. I have no problem with them. Quantum theory also seems weird but it is accepted, that is the way of science.
Brown Piggy: Quantum theory makes no claim about the motivations or welfare of quantum particles.
Pink Piggy: You just do not understand the mathematics involved. This is typical uninformed criticism of economics.



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Offline Taiyoh

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2009, 07:05:49 PM »
The way I understand this (oh, and I apologize for describing it as fictional...symboli c would have been better spoken), is that the "engineers" are those who try to mold society to their views; to make more "productive" citizens, or "normal" citizens.

E.g. teachers, therapists, and anyone else who controls the development of children.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please  :)

Offline wildweathel

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2009, 07:12:13 PM »
The way I understand this (oh, and I apologize for describing it as fictional...symboli c would have been better spoken),

No offense taken.  It is fictional.  Sort of.

Quote
is that the "engineers" are those who try to mold society to their views; to make more "productive" citizens, or "normal" citizens.

We have a winner!!

That's a lot more clear (or at least direct) than I've been able to say so far.  Thanks!

John Dewey is an excellent historical example.  What's frightening is the number of people who agree with him.
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Offline Taiyoh

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2009, 07:21:51 PM »
[insert post]


 :okay:


Edit:  I just noticed that my tag says "Sr. Member"...

I've barely been posting (truly posting, that is) for two weeks  :-\

Offline wildweathel

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2009, 07:26:59 PM »
I've barely been posting (truly posting, that is) for two weeks  :-\

I just found out that I'm on the fourth page of sixteen on the top posters leader-board.  Wow!  I'm more talkative than 70% of all RAFians.  I'm not quite sure what that means, but, wow!
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Offline Taiyoh

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2009, 08:09:02 PM »
I've barely been posting (truly posting, that is) for two weeks  :-\

I just found out that I'm on the fourth page of sixteen on the top posters leader-board.  Wow!  I'm more talkative than 70% of all RAFians.  I'm not quite sure what that means, but, wow!

Congratulations, once again   :)

Offline Toc'

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2009, 09:12:42 PM »
Thanks  ;D
 
It makes me think of a book my mother has on a shelf, it is entitled "Free children of summerhill" by Neill something...

Oh and... ;) My mother is a teacher  :-X
 ;D
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 07:36:15 AM by Tocade »
Pink Piggy: Anyway, these are standard assumptions in economics. I have no problem with them. Quantum theory also seems weird but it is accepted, that is the way of science.
Brown Piggy: Quantum theory makes no claim about the motivations or welfare of quantum particles.
Pink Piggy: You just do not understand the mathematics involved. This is typical uninformed criticism of economics.



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Offline Taiyoh

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2009, 11:16:08 PM »
That's a lot more clear (or at least direct) than I've been able to say so far.  Thanks!

Ah, and does this mean that there will be no "Part Two" to your explanation?  I'd like to hear it, regardless the preexisting comprehension of what you're saying.  :)


_______
You appear out of nowhere and cause such a stir,
I am laden with interest... who are you, kind sir?
On second thought, no, this would spoil the suspense,
and with gossip abound, cause fallouts immense.

Well, I am now off to sleep.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 03:54:12 AM by Taiyoh »

Offline Toc'

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2009, 07:32:53 AM »
Quote
You appear out of nowhere and cause such a stir,
I am laden with interest... who are you, kind sir?
On second thought, no, this would spoil the suspense,
and with gossip abound, cause fallouts immense.

Well, I am now off to sleep.


Oh my goodness  ;D
Pink Piggy: Anyway, these are standard assumptions in economics. I have no problem with them. Quantum theory also seems weird but it is accepted, that is the way of science.
Brown Piggy: Quantum theory makes no claim about the motivations or welfare of quantum particles.
Pink Piggy: You just do not understand the mathematics involved. This is typical uninformed criticism of economics.



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Offline wildweathel

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2009, 11:46:00 AM »
Ah, and does this mean that there will be no "Part Two" to your explanation?  I'd like to hear it, regardless the preexisting comprehension of what you're saying.  :)

I'll go ahead and write it, then.  I kinda ended on a down note, and also gave the impression that all teachers are bad (which isn't what I mean to say at all!).
Kony 2012
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Offline Toc'

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2009, 11:56:32 AM »
Yes ^^ don't worry, I didn't think it was that simple.
Pink Piggy: Anyway, these are standard assumptions in economics. I have no problem with them. Quantum theory also seems weird but it is accepted, that is the way of science.
Brown Piggy: Quantum theory makes no claim about the motivations or welfare of quantum particles.
Pink Piggy: You just do not understand the mathematics involved. This is typical uninformed criticism of economics.



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Offline Taiyoh

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2009, 06:25:39 PM »
Quote
You appear out of nowhere and cause such a stir,
I am laden with interest... who are you, kind sir?
On second thought, no, this would spoil the suspense,
and with gossip abound, cause fallouts immense.


Well, I am now off to sleep.


Oh my goodness  ;D


Eh? ???
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 06:53:46 PM by Taiyoh »

Offline Toc'

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Re: "Though, in mind, I know, 'tis new to me..."
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2009, 09:07:36 PM »
Nothing Taiyoh, nothing. ^^

Pink Piggy: Anyway, these are standard assumptions in economics. I have no problem with them. Quantum theory also seems weird but it is accepted, that is the way of science.
Brown Piggy: Quantum theory makes no claim about the motivations or welfare of quantum particles.
Pink Piggy: You just do not understand the mathematics involved. This is typical uninformed criticism of economics.



¤  Sharing a special bond of RAFenmity with Wildweathel since December '08 ¤