Humans and thought speak?

[anijen21]

When human babies learn to speak, they aren't learning how to properly function their vocal cords - they can do that already: goo goo gah gah. They are just learning the concept of joining ideas with the physical action of speaking. If you were learning a new language, you wouldn't need to go through 'goo goo gah gah' again, but rather learning how that language joins specific thoughts with specific sounds.

I'm no expert on natal development, but don't they go through phases of making hard "guh, buh, duh" sounds and then move on to the more subtle "muh, nuh" kinds of sounds? I mean my evidence is pretty anecdotal, but don't most babies say "dada" before "mama"?

And when I learn a new language, I already know how to "talk," that is, use my vocal cords to express some kind of Latin-based language. I've gone through the "goo goo gah gah bah bah bah" stage and figured out where to hit my tongue on my teeth to say "T," the difference between humming against your lips and your tongue to make "m" and "n," respectively. But if I had to learn one of those clicking! African languages, I'd have a lot of trouble, right? I'd have to make sounds I'm not normally accustomed to making. Or even another Latin-based language, like French--does anyone who is not a native French speaker ever reach the level of expertise of a native speaker? Are they hacking and coughing in all the right places, to the right degree? I heard somewhere that it's really hard to perfect a foreign language after your palette sets--your tongue shapes your mouth a certain way based on the language you speak and the dialect you use, so everyone has a little bit of trouble making specific sounds in languages. Like the people who have to say "little cup of tea" a bunch of times really fast so they can learn to roll their r's.

lol I am so off track I'm sorry. This actually brings up another interesting question at least to me--so many of our traits are developmental in nature--our postures, our mannerisms, etc. What would a brand new, frolis maneuver human really look like?

As far as the second point, you're totally right--the whole "learning grammar" thing would be averted, since he's already got a pretty good grasp on syntax. Learning to talk for him would be an entirely physical thing.

Ax is already physically capable of properly functioning his vocal cords from being human, and because of his translator chip, already knows what sounds go with what ideas. In other words, he would be able to speak fluently from the start. It's just a matter of the fact he finds making sounds with the mouth to be incredibly funny, and often plays with his words.

I guess this is where I disagree. Morphing was the entire premise of this series, and I think as far as a concept, it's about 95% perfect. But this kind of falls under the 5% I have a problem with. I don't believe a lot of the stuff they "knew" when they morphed is actually "instinctual." I just griped about this in the livejournal community, so bear with me if you've read that already, but like when Rachel morphs a cat in #2:

"It reminded me of both my mothers, the human one, and the cat who had licked my fur and carried me around in her mouth." 108

Could she really know that? She never experienced being carried around by her cat-mother in its mouth, so why would she remember that? It would be like Ax morphing human and being "oh yeah breast feeding, that was cool" lol idk that's a weird example but you get my point, right? Instinct, to a degree, does influence our actions, but so does knowledge which is why I think in a lot of cases the Animorphs would have made pretty sucky animals.

And I think Applegate realized this, which is why Cassie always did the hard research and why Tobias could fly better than any of them. Like I said, 95% of the time, I think she nailed it on the head. But there are a couple of cases, here and there, where I have to say "No, you went too far, there's no way they could just know that," and I think Ax speaking perfect, professorial English with no learning curve is one of them.

[ThinkAgain]

I agree with what you said, but I'm almost positive the thing with Rachel and the cat is a known KASU, just like in the first book where Jake morphs Homer, but is still neutered even though it shouldn't come with the morph.

Still, I'm not surprised Ax was able to physically speak well. It's cleared that he had full knowledge of how to use the language, but for speaking I'd like to say that since it was the first language he physically spoke, pronunciation would come with knowing how the words should sound. Also, since he wasn't used to another language, a foreign dialect would not be an issue. Similar to how a child learning their first language will speak better than a different language speaking adult, or how a younger person can more easily learn foreign languages.

[anijen21]

eh, to each his own, I guess. I had the same issue with Tobias and Rachel speaking when they were Hork-Bajir. If your mouth was suddenly long, beak-like, and reptilian, could you really form any sounds with it? Then again, it's one of those "how far can you suspend your disbelief" things, because Taxxons can't speak worth a damn, as well they shouldn't.

[ThinkAgain]

Really? I'm pretty sure they mentioned that they sounded stange speaking. I always assumed they just spelled things right so it would be more convenient to read.

Still, I'm sure they could speak correctly because moving vocal cords is no more difficult than moving fingers, but would probably pronounce everything weird until they became more used to it, similar to how a person who gets a retainer sounds strange for a while, but then gets used to it, abet on a larger scale.

[Terenia]

Ax didn't need to "learn" to speak with a mouth any more than the Animorphs needed to take Remedial Flying 101 when they morphed birds for the first time. If every time someone morphed they had to go through the process of learning how they do what they do (how moles dig, how fly's fly, how ****roaches never die) they would never have gotten anywhere. Ax is playing with sounds for the same reason he eats a million cinnabuns. He likes it. It's new and interesting.

The problem that I had was that Ax really could not control himself at times. I mean, he may only be a cadet, and it may be an alien morph, but he IS a warrior-in-training and having a fit over 'brown globules' could potentially be a security risk, as playing with every other word could be as well.

I think that KA overdid the whole 'Ax as an idiot human' bit at times. It was great for comic relief, but considering his intelligence and the sensitivity of their situation, you wold think that he would be more careful.

Now, as far as thought-speak.....33 is the second book that has someone in human morph using thought speak (not counting #1 which has been noted as a KASU many times). I forget which book it was, but a book prior to 33 had Tobias use thought-speak in human morph. BUT in #23, when Tobias is in the law office as a human he never mentions being able to thought-speak to anyone. In fact he specifically mentions that he can't respond, which is why they make him pick up a candy bar to indicate 'all is well'.

My point, I guess, is that the rules of thought-speak is the most frustrating part of the entire series. It drives me crazy. I hate when things don't follow the rules.

/endrant.

[anijen21]

Ax didn't need to "learn" to speak with a mouth any more than the Animorphs needed to take Remedial Flying 101 when they morphed birds for the first time. If every time someone morphed they had to go through the process of learning how they do what they do (how moles dig, how fly's fly, how ****roaches never die) they would never have gotten anywhere. Ax is playing with sounds for the same reason he eats a million cinnabuns. He likes it. It's new and interesting.

lol aww man I thought you'd be on my side for this.

Like I said, the line is fuzzy. For some reason, I can buy them knowing how to fly as birds, because birds fly. Just like I could buy Ax knowing how to walk, sit, run, eat, whatever as a human. These are all instincts, things necessary for base survival.

But vocalizing so specifically as to create language? That takes some higher reasoning and practice.

Higher reasoning he's got, so emphasis on the practice

You're right overall, though. It was a fine line, and a fuzzy, personal one that's different for everyone. It's kind of an interesting philosophical debate, if you think about it. How much of what we do is really just our instincts screaming at us? I'm hungry, eat. I'm lonely, make a friend. I'm bored, do something fun.

I could buy flying as birds and digging as moles because definitively, that is what those things do. For them not to know how, in any capacity, would seem weird. But do humans definitively talk? I don't know. I believe digging is instinctual to a mole. I think if you put a baby mole in dirt box and gave it food and let it grow and survive without supervision, it would eventually start to dig. But I think if you put a human in a dirt box and gave it food and let it grow and survive without supervision, it wouldn't come out of the box speaking anything besides vague guttural grunts and maybe some nasally whines. Language is too specialized, in my opinion, for Ax to do it perfectly straight away. He'd learn how. But the specific sounds he'd need to create English words would just take some practice and accommodation.

BUT LIKE I SAID. 5%. I HAD A PROBLEM WITH LIKE 5% OF THEIR MORPHS. 95% OF THE REST I WAS FINE WITH.

[wotw2112]

Language is too specialized, in my opinion, for Ax to do it perfectly straight away. He'd learn how. But the specific sounds he'd need to create English words would just take some practice and accommodation.

I would agree with that thought (with some reservation).  It seems more of a cultural development (though DNA obviously gives us the capacity).  Can't recall if they ever really discussed the "other brain" when a sentient being was morphed (like Ax's "mind" when Tobias morphed him, or a hork-bajir "mind" when morphed).  I don't remember any specific moment dealing with that but I may be wrong.  It's been a while.

[goom]

any morph can use thought-speak, whether human or not.
every case where they can not is either a KASU or ax enjoying speech.

i've read ax using thought-speak while in human morph, but can't recall which book(s).

[foxglade]

Thought Speak 101, we need you!
Okay, we all know KA Applegate made a few screw ups, like Jake thought speaking to Tobias near the start WHILE STILL A HUMAN, but as it's been said before (I think) Ax was going on about candy floss (or "cloud candy" as he called it) to Tobias in though speak, while in human morph at the Yeerk - a - Thon in 33. And in the one where they got Trekkies as recruits for the battle, when they met them Tobias was thought speaking privately to Jake WHILE IN HUMAN MORPH.
PS I know all this because I was researching thought speak in human morph for a FanFic I was going to write... not going to now. Peace and love xx

[foxglade]

sorry if that was a little irrelevant to the current topic, I just wanted to set that straight.