Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: wotw2112 on August 27, 2008, 09:43:49 PM
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I was just wondering what others' thoughts on Alloran (Visser 3's host) were.
Just for thought:
Did he deserve what he got (bio-weapon used on the Hork-Bajir and willingness to wipe out numerous Yeerks over Elfangor's objection just as Jake ironically ended up doing)?
Does anyone feel sorry for him?
Would anyone liked to have heard more about what happened to him after he was freed from Esplin 9466?
Any other thoughts?
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It would have been nice to see more of him after he was freed in #54 but what we did see of him proved that he has changed for the better. He stood up for Ax and supported his challenge against the Andalite military.
It would also have been nice to see flashbacks to his early days before he became a great warrior. In the Andalite Chronicles it is said that Alloran was once a less serious person with a great sense of humour; before the war corrupted him.
Yes he committed terrible crimes, but nobody deserved the fate of being infested by Esplin 9466 (Visser Three).
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It would have been nice to see more of him after he was freed in #54 but what we did see of him proved that he has changed for the better. He stood up for Ax and supported his challenge against the Andalite military.
It would also have been nice to see flashbacks to his early days before he became a great warrior. In the Andalite Chronicles it is said that Alloran was once a less serious person with a great sense of humour; before the war corrupted him.
My sentiments as well. I think he's actually one of the most...interesting (if not exactly likeable) characters in the entire series. He's always sooooo central to everything but we know almost nothing about him.
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I'll go as far as saying the quantum/bio bomb he used was justifiable. Not pleasant, perhaps not ethical, but you can definitely argue in favor of it. I'm not sure what the population of the Hork-Bajir pre-quantum bomb was (or the Yeerk's population for that matter), but the fact they lost of as many bodies to the Yeerks as they did was a MAJOR blow. If the Yeerks had enslaved the race as a mass grouping, in full numbers, the Andalites may not have lasted half as long as they did.
It's the same deal as the melting Earth from orbit thing, the quarantine toward the end of the series. Moral? Gray area. Can you make arguments towards its cold logical necessity? Most definitely.
Alloran was awesome, as that embittered yet practical veteran type of guy.
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Alloran was awesome, as that embittered yet practical veteran type of guy.
I agree.
I guess you make a strong point. Maybe the blame for the bio-bomb lays with the andalites as a whole as they didn't give Alloran the needed resources to protect the planet the way he should have...
That's kind of the way I saw it too, he did what he had to cause he had no other options. Of course maybe we'd (or at least I'd) feel differently if it was done to humans...
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I think maybe he did deserve the fate he got, after releasing the quantum virus. He of all people should have taken it more seriously when Aldrea contacted them about the Yeerks. He was afraid something like that may happen, but he didn't bring enough troops to battle when Adrea talked about the invasion of the HB homeworld.
I never liked the guy, but he seems to have improved. I am glad he was finally rescued.
I wish we were told what happened to him after he was freed, but it's just one of those loose ends KA didn't feel like tying up in the "end".
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It would have been great to find out what happened to him after he was freed. I mean, didn't he have a family? I thought I recalled in book 8 that he asked Ax to send a message to his wife.
The question in my head is what would the family reunion have been like? Is Alloran's wife the sort who could stick with her husband after he was the most notorious controller? Or would she be scared off by all the attention he would probably get?
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Daphnes, wouldn't that just mean he did what he had to do, once the Yeerks started winning? Aldrea and Dak kind of seemed to be sabotaging something that would have worked.
Now I'm not saying what Alloran did was "right", but nothing in war is right. The Hork-Bajir were as physically dangerous as the Andalites themselves, allowing the Yeerks to expand and take more species.
From a certain point of view, committing genocide on the Hork-Bajir would have saved more lives overall than it took, from a variety of races.
Plus, just throwing this out here (fully expecting a backlash, I know), that the Hork-Bajir weren't exactly a "natural" race, anyway. Experiments of the Arn, somewhat of a gray area in itself as to whether or not they should even exist. Although I can't remember if Alloran knew of their origins at the time, haven't read the book in a while.
But, all being said, if Alloran's ruthless decision had just been supported from the start, he was right, more good would have come of it than bad. The Andalite High Council didn't have anything to do with it, remember. He broke the law, but for a pretty damn good reason.
And it seemed the Council learned of their mistakes by the time of Earth, their quarantine plan seeming to hint that they finally realized just how cold and harsh and extreme things sometimes have to be, that perhaps Alloran was right all along.
The Andalites couldn't lose the humans to the Yeerks, simply couldn't, just as they probably shouldn't have let themselves lose the Hork-Bajir. Without the Hork-Bajir, the Yeerks would have been relatively easily overrun and defeated. The Andalite unwillingness to exterminate them fueled the war for however many decades it lasted. Alloran knew this, and was persecuted for it.
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Although I can't remember if Alloran knew of their origins at the time, haven't read the book in a while.
I think he did. the quantum virus was made with combination of arn and andalite technology. If he needed like something to make it target hork-bajir, and talked to the arn about it, I think the arn would tell...does that make sense? it made a lot more sense in my head.
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even though I agree with a bit of what you said Xeno, I'm gonna nit pick just cuz i'm bored.
Of course there are moral right and wrongs in war. Humanity has reached a point were a number of conflicts can be "resolved" without a person on the power side setting foot on land. The reason we don't go and blast whole nations off that map is cuz people with morals (self not included) are unwilling to comprise them with what must be done for an immediate win
And as for the unnatural thing, kinda agree there too. But at still you think about all the things people do that is not natural; folk breaks a leg in his apartment and calls out, is he supposed to be saved, healed and allowed to live and reproduce? In society yes, but in the "natural" would, he's food. Still we don't find it appropriate to round them up and shoot em in the hospitals just cuz they're not fit. (Yet we do horses, how odd...)
Could would and should are very different words, what you can do in war, what you should do, and what you will do are very delicate concerns
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War does a lot more bad than good. I understand that. However, genocide is a horrible act. That's why we hate Hitler so much, and Hitler has nothing on what Alloran tried to do.
Maybe the quantum virus was the only way at the time, but only because they weren't taking the Yeerks as serious as they should have. Just because they botched up a good opportunity, does not justify the quantum virus.
If the Hork-Bajir died, the whole planet would die. They were created because they were needed to sustain the planet. It's just not the kind of thing I would ever approve of.
It's true that if the Yeerks had taken as many Hork-Bajir as they could have, then they would have likely won the war by the time they found Earth. As justifiable as it may seem, it only came down to that because they botched things up. They didn't go there in full force when Aldrea contacted them.
Destroying a planet is just not the kind of thing I'd ever called justified.
Edit: Actually, I'm not so sure the planet would die if all the Hork-Bajir died. If so, then the Arn would be less willing to help Alloran kill them off. But who knows?
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I guess what I'm getting at is, Hitler was culling a race out of ignorance and prejudice. That's evil.
Alloran was going to cut the losses and actually save more people than he hurt, based on something that you could reasonably call logic. It wasn't an emotional hateful thing, it was actual military strategy. And a military strategy that would have worked.
It's more like the dropping of the bombs on Japan than the genocide in Europe of the 20th century. Much more in common with the former.
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Alloran does have a whole universe to consider...as Xeno said, he was probably thinking of the innumerable lives he would be saving for just one planet among many thousands if not millions. To him, the choice was obvious. I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same even though I consider myself a moral person. Sometimes it's a choice between bad and worse. (also, better death or life as a controller?)
Of course the right choice was to go in with enough strength to take the Yeerks out. Life has taught me that if you're going in, given the chance, always go in with overwhelming force. But by the time Alloran made the call, this was moot. What was done, was done. He took the one option he saw.
And the andalites ironically did come around to his way of thinking in the end (not that that fact makes it right).
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It kind of does make it right. They couldn't count on the Animorphs to win Earth, six youths with a bunch of animal morphs: not exactly formidable. How many humans are on this planet? Six billion? Seven? They couldn't have the Yeerks take Earth. Simply couldn't.
Better to blow the everloving crap out of the six billion humans, than doom another countless number of species to slavery. The War Council wasn't really morally wrong about that, either. The only difference between the two was Alloran acted alone in a rogue manner, the captain guy in #54 was fully sanctioned. Just as I guess Jake was sanctioned to do whatever he had to do in the final story arc of the series. The military probably didn't know he was sending 100 auxiliary kids to their certain death, but they probably would have grimly given approval anyway, if they knew. We're talking the planet here.
Alloran was more or less just the total hardass, taking on the responsibility himself and throwing away his reputation, burdening himself rather than anyone else. Seems pretty noble to me. He was just like this grim gruff Vietnam vet kind of dude, frustrated by idealistic fresh-faced youth like Elfangor who at that stage really had no idea what they were talking about. His d1cky personality was understandable.
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I'd feel sorry for anyone who was torn away from his family to become a prisoner of their own body, watching it do horrible things.
Although the use of the bioweapon on the Hork-Bajir was very unethical.
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the way i see it is alloran go screwed. like he didnt do the things he did to be a mallicious person. the way he was seeing it was kill a few, save a million type thing, which is what the animorphs did pretty much the whole series. if he managed to stop the invasion of the hork bajir, they woulda had a huge advantage over the yeerks. but it was the wrong way to go about it. he shoulda just listened to aldrea the 1rst time she called them about it.
and with him wanting to kill those yeerks in the andalite chronicles, think of it this way. there were what, lets say 2,000 yeerks there? that would have been 2,000 less hosts and 2,000 more free ppl (aliens whatever) had alloran succeeded.
moral of the story, alloran didnt deserve being visser 3
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um...yeah but no one deserves to be the host of visser three...
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Although the use of the bioweapon on the Hork-Bajir was very unethical.
How do you figure? ???
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I've been thinking more about this. The reason I hate the idea is because we're talking about a planet, and not a small country like when we bombed Japan.
But in the big picture, you could say the planets are like countries, and the galaxy is the world. It's an extreme measure, but if wiping out a large part of a small country makes it easier to protect the entire world, and doing it is the lesser of two evil options, then perhaps it is justified.
Alloran did screw up by not bringing enough soldiers, but at that point he had two choices. He took the lesser of two evils. I think I see that now. If it had gone right, the Yeerks likely would have lost and the Arn may have been able to restart the Hork-Bajir race.
On another note, there was no reason to try to wipe out Earth. There were definitely other choices. I stand firm about that.
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Was Alloran the guy in charge of how many troops to bring to the HB world though? He seemed more likean actual frontline captain or something at that stage in his career, not like he was the general calling the shots on a large scale.
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Was Alloran the guy in charge of how many troops to bring to the HB world though? He seemed more likean actual frontline captain or something at that stage in his career, not like he was the general calling the shots on a large scale.
He was a Prince. Actually, I don't know how many troops a Prince can command. I don't really have an answer.
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I don't think he gets to decide how many troops go where.
I'd be amazed if he'd taken it on himself to personally see to Seerow's daughter, I'm betting it was a call by the higher ups
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Yeah. He always seemed more like the hands-on War Prince, rather than the General standing on his spaceship looking at a map and ordering people around. I don't think he was like in charge of the strategic military stuff. Probably why he chose to go over the law, believing they didn't know what was actually happening on the ground well enough to make a decision.
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presumably they just gave Alloran a few spare soldiers and said "Good Luck" rather than him selecting the number of troops.
A few people have been saying that since the Hork-Bajir were not a natural species, it made it easier to kill the horks... that is significant, but more significant is this: the Hork-bajir are not very bright and it makes it easier to dehumanise them (or regard them as unsentient), if you were on a dinghy with a down syndrome kid which could only support one you might be more tempted to kill and eat that child or tip them overboard then you would if your companion was Einstein.
and yes there is a difference between killing 6 million people who are better than you (like Hitler did) for the lulz than killing an unintelligent species (with no contribution to make to anything) to save thousands of other sentient species despite the many justifications. Alloran still (and barring having a bio-weapon against Yeerks, I would definitly have done the same thing) deserved his karmic punishment (failing to save the hork-bajir and committing genocide resulting in his own enslavement to Esplin).
should Alloran be in a ramonite box or a bio-stasis chamber whilst he waits for Esplin at the pool, something that immobilises him at the same time it prevents him morphing, but still wouldn't prevent him from getting hungry/breathing etc?
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Well, I think we forget one important point in this.
Were the Andalites even thinking of other galactic races, or were they actually thinking of themselves? Anywhere from "oh crap, this will look really bad on our resumes" to "dang it, we might not be able to contain this infestation after all". Granted, Alloran might have, but did the Andalite race (or maybe more so their government) even care about these other races? The seem so ****y and self-assured, that I think in their minds, the bio weapon and the quarantine was more for their benefit than anyone elses.
so then the thing is not whether it was moral or not at all in the Andalite's eyes. It was more like "how do we get ourselves out of this ditch that will give us the biggest advantage?" In this perspective, wiping out the Hork Bajir and the Huumans don't seem so wrong.
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I have a theory about Alloran as a character that I'll definitely post once it's a little bit more fleshed out.
But right now I want to ask you guys this:
Did Alloran actually release the Quantum Virus?
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That's a very good point. I believe it was implied that it was created as a percaution, or a trump card. Though I'm thinking he probably would have released it eventually as a last resort, I don't think he was planning on doing it any time soon.
So yeah, the virus was actually released by accident, by the fault of Aldrea and Dak. But would Alloran have released it himself eventually? Now that's a question to ponder.
Actually, if Alloran wouldn't have, I think the Arn would. They'd destroy the Hork-Bajir to hopefully drive the Yeerks off of their world, and then re-create them so they can sustain the trees to sustain the planet, possibly with a failsafe to keep them form getting infested again. (Like they did to themselves, with the bloodvessel that would burst if they get infested)
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*shrug*
Gotta do whatcha gotta do.
I might have done it.
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I definitly would've, though I would've saught to exterminate the Yeerks first... Good point that Aldrea and Dak actually released the virus rather than Alloran, perhaps this is why he went free at the end.
But was Alloran (during Esplin's infestation) infested in a bio-stasis chamber or a ramonite box?
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whether or not doing it to the hork bajir was ethical, doing it to earth was not. the andalites didnt even try to save us. they were contacted repeatedly and told what was happening on earth, and refused to help. their first response is "quarantine" as opposed to alloran, who used it as a last resort.
also, there were 6 billion people on earth, and the impression i got from reading the series, especially visser, was that most planets have sentient species members numbering in the millions, though we dont know the number of other sentient races, its logically different from wiping out a few million hork bajir.
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That's a very good point. I believe it was implied that it was created as a percaution, or a trump card. Though I'm thinking he probably would have released it eventually as a last resort, I don't think he was planning on doing it any time soon.
So yeah, the virus was actually released by accident, by the fault of Aldrea and Dak. But would Alloran have released it himself eventually? Now that's a question to ponder.
Actually, if Alloran wouldn't have, I think the Arn would. They'd destroy the Hork-Bajir to hopefully drive the Yeerks off of their world, and then re-create them so they can sustain the trees to sustain the planet, possibly with a failsafe to keep them form getting infested again. (Like they did to themselves, with the bloodvessel that would burst if they get infested)
Well that's the basis of my theory. The only indication that we get live, in The Hork-Bajir Chronicles of what Alloran's intentions with the Quantum Virus were is this:
<It's over Alloran,> Aldrea cried. <You are not going to destroy the Hork-Bajir!>
<I'm trying to save this planet, you fool!> Alloran said.
Now, we get a lot of rationalizing and crazed jibber-jabber in the Andalite Chronicles, which I haven't looked at very recently, but...aww hell just let me do it now.
The most important thing in war is to destroy your enemies, Aristh Elfangor. Nothing is more important than destroying your enemies. Do you understand?
They are the enemy. Hypocrites! You're all hypocrites! We lost the Hork-Bajir war because of weak, moralizing fools like you! Because of fools like you, I am disgraced and shunned and sent off on trivial errands with nothing but arisths under my command...What is the difference how you destroy the enemy?...What does it matter if you kill them with a tail blade or shredder or quantum virus?
And that's all he has to say about that.
Now, here's what I think went down: Alloran was losing, on the Hork-Bajir world. I don't believe he had any control over how many troops were assigned to him, in fact, this is what the Andalites say about how they decided to distribute their resources:
<We have eight fighters, two transports, one re-supply ship, one repair ship. A total of less than a thousand warriors. We destroyed two Yeerk fighters on the way in...Days after we heard your message from here we received intelligence reports that the Yeerk fleet was in Sector Two. The main fleet is there. We assumed that since...because of you...It will take a year for the main fleet to get here, unless Z-Space reconfigures.>
<This is going to be a tough little war,> Alloran said grimly. <A very tough little war.>
Now those "intelligence reports" that the Andalites received are a rant for another time, but at the very least, this does prove that Alloran was not in charge of distributing troops, only commanding them.
So to backtrack a little: Alloran was losing. In fact, I think he was shrewd enough to understand that loss would be inevitable unless he got creative. Making and releasing a quantum virus would have been counter-productive--the Andalites aren't normally the types of people to go around killing sentient life, at least from how they're characterized in the Andalite Chronicles, before they got desperate, and the Hork-Bajir Chronicles takes place before then. Plus, I really don't think the Arn would have produced the virus if it was intended to be used, because they needed the Hork-Bajir to survive. Besides, the Andalites may be too arrogant to realize this, but a bunch of seven-foot-tall bladed demons aren't necessarily a bad ally to have in wartime. So I really, really, REALLY don't think Alloran intended to release the Quantum Virus at all.
I think there's substantial textual evidence up there to prove that he was using it to blackmail or coerce the Yeerks. I think he was going to make enough of it, go up to the Yeerk commander, say "We've got enough Quantum Virus to decimate the entire Hork-Bajir population on this planet, so take what you've got and leave." Then the third-act dumbassery that plagued the last three Chronicles books struck and Aldrea and Dak did something really, really stupid and unanticipated by Alloran.
And who, as the unconventional commanding officer, got blamed?
Our man.
So what is all of that talk in the Andalite Chronicles then? I think most of it is Monday-morning quarter-backing. Thinking about the way things went down, and what he could have done differently, but in this case I don't believe hindsight is 20/20. Five years is enough time to delude yourself into believing that you're responsible for something you're not really responsible for. Like Sawyer says on LOST (lol bear with me), "Kids are like dogs. Keep hitting them long enough and they're going to start to believe they done something to deserve it." Well I'm paraphrasing but you get the idea. I think by this point, Alloran is shamed, subdued, and a little bit deranged.
But if you read it very carefully...there's indications even here that it didn't turn out like he'd planned. "We lost the Hork-Bajir war because of weak, moralizing fools like you!" is most likely referring to Dak and Aldrea. I think all of that "destroying your enemies" crazy-talk is his conscience trying to come to terms with what happened. Rationalizing, like I said.
So, I don't know. Alloran, to me, is one of the most tragic figures in the story, really bested only by his wife, lol. I know a lot of us consider his twenty-year infestation karmic payback, but I really don't think the punishment fits the crime. So when I picked up #54 and read him giving some stupid "and now I learned my lesson" speech...I was disappointed. It was trite, undeserved, and sort of out-of-character. I wish we would have seen him calling his wife for the first time in twenty-years instead. Or maybe him and Ax both destroying the source of all of their heartache and unresolved vows and responsibilities. I was disappointed with #54, not so much because Rachel died or the ridiculously infuriating cliffhanger.
I was really, really disappointed with how she handled Alloran.
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Alloran was infested after being knocked out by Elfangor, who didn't realise Chapman was a controller in TAC.
I don't know if I have posted in this topic before, but I think it was wrong to release that virus on the Hork-Bajir. Mainly because with the Arn's bioengineering capabilities, they probably could have given the Yeerks viable hosts with the condition of reengineering the Yeerks so that they can only infest that one host species. Basically make them into Iskoort.
There wasn't much reason to exterminate the Horks just because the Andalites screwed up by not coming sooner with a larger force.
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I agree with russianspy1234... There is a difference between killing a few dim hork-bajir with a virus (which would leave the ecology of that planet unharmed and with survivors because some people are inevitably immune to viruses) and blowing up a whole blanet of 6 billion smarter humans+all their animals and planets and culture.
we all know it was unethical to release the quantum virus (but as anijen says, there is evidence to suggest he didn't, possibly why he lived at the end) but necesary in context (perhaps the yeerks would've refused any Arn offers to create new hosts?)
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I agree with russianspy1234... There is a difference between killing a few dim hork-bajir with a virus (which would leave the ecology of that planet unharmed and with survivors because some people are inevitably immune to viruses) and blowing up a whole blanet of 6 billion smarter humans+all their animals and planets and culture.
we all know it was unethical to release the quantum virus (but as anijen says, there is evidence to suggest he didn't, possibly why he lived at the end) but necesary in context (perhaps the yeerks would've refused any Arn offers to create new hosts?)
its not the intelligence that matters, its the numbers. its hard enough weighing human life, and then you get into weighing all sentient life, are they all equivalent in worth? also, their ecology was not left intact, the survivors/immune were the ones that got infested, so the planet likely died out shortly after.
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sure intelligence matters, more than is moral to say, if you were on a dinghy/desert island with a genius, retard, and you needed to throw overboard/eat, the order should go: sociopath, retard, you, genius. However the man pull/appeal of earth is it's biodervsity and numbers. Yes Kit is right, this is an awful thing for me to have said. However I cannot take it down: not because I am a cow who enjoys upsetting people, but because it would be cowardly to go 'people keep on reporting me so i will take it down so i look good' If i am going to be awful, then I shall take the rap.
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One thing I've always wondered about the quantum virus: Why not set the futzing thing on Yeerk?
You could release it on a large number of planets, making those worlds useless in the eyes of the Vissers.
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One thing I've always wondered about the quantum virus: Why not set the futzing thing on Yeerk?
You could release it on a large number of planets, making those worlds useless in the eyes of the Vissers.
genetics is a funny thing like that, the hork bajir genome was fully mapped for them, so they knew what to easily target, compared to yeerk dna.
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Oh come on like Seerow never took a sample of some Yeerk goo in his studies?
I think you actually just discovered a pretty significant plot hole.
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And perhaps the Arn could have modded the Yeerks so that their control over the host was drastically weakened, essentially just a "voice in your head", enjoying life with you. I don't think I would mind providing such service.
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maybe Yeerk DNA was confiscated by the government? maybe they were still working on it.
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I would just like to say that I thought of releasing the quantum virus on the yeerks ages ago: like I said sociopath, retard, you, the genius.
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whether or not doing it to the hork bajir was ethical, doing it to earth was not. the andalites didnt even try to save us. they were contacted repeatedly and told what was happening on earth, and refused to help. their first response is "quarantine" as opposed to alloran, who used it as a last resort.
also, there were 6 billion people on earth, and the impression i got from reading the series, especially visser, was that most planets have sentient species members numbering in the millions, though we dont know the number of other sentient races, its logically different from wiping out a few million hork bajir.
I don't agree.
Alloran didn't try everything. He didn't try to fight with the help of Arns and Hork-Bajirs. He didn't want to! He thought that the Andalites are too "good", too "strong", too "perfect" to ask help to other species. So he chose the easy way: quantum virus. Same for Earth, they chose the easier way. They didn't want to work with the Humans as they didn't want to work with the Hork-Bajirs.
Killing few millions of people (sentient species) isn't more acceptable than killing few billions of people. The number doesn't count so much, the act really count.
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I don't agree.
Alloran didn't try everything. He didn't try to fight with the help of Arns and Hork-Bajirs. He didn't want to! He thought that the Andalites are too "good", too "strong", too "perfect" to ask help to other species. So he chose the easy way: quantum virus. Same for Earth, they chose the easier way. They didn't want to work with the Humans as they didn't want to work with the Hork-Bajirs.
Killing few millions of people (sentient species) isn't more acceptable than killing few billions of people. The number doesn't count so much, the act really count.
You making good points about Andalite laziness/poor teamwork (remember they are herbivores unlike humans, Andalites don't need to domistacate animals like dogs or horses, so working with other species would be more difficult for them). But seriously saying there is no difference between killing millions and billions makes you sound like Diana Mosley...
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Who is Diana Mosley?
And destroying a species is the same for every species to me. Saying "they're only 10 millions, it's OK", isn't acceptable to me.
It's my point of view.
Edit: Thanks to Wiki, I now know who is Diana Mosley. And now I ask an explanation: why do you compare me to her?
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Well, I suppose a herbivorous herd species would trend towards being distrustful of others; the herd is the only solid ground.
SEE ALSO: Niven's Puppeteers
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Killing 100 people is worse than killing 1 person. It just is. I mean you can say each life is proceless, and that they are all equal, but 1 does not equal 100. Nor does 1 million equal 1 billion.
I have another possible plot hole for you. If Alloran saw them as a threat before they betrayed the Andalites, why wouldn't he take them seriously when they invaded the HB Homeworld? Why did he take them lightly by coming late, and with a small force?
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so say you are walking past 2 sets of train tracks. you see 5 kids playing on one of them. on the other tracks, another kid is walking alone. you see a train coming towards the 5 kids, none of the kids see it since they all have their backs turned. you are too far for them to hear you, but you are close enough to flip a switch and send the train down the other set of tracks, to kill the one kid. what do you do?
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Save the five kids.
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^^' I see but it's different that what I wanted to say...
Anyway, I'd like to understand why Voodooqueen treated me as a Nazi. I just want a quiet and simple explanation. You can say what you want about me, but tell me why you said that.
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so say you are walking past 2 sets of train tracks. you see 5 kids playing on one of them. on the other tracks, another kid is walking alone. you see a train coming towards the 5 kids, none of the kids see it since they all have their backs turned. you are too far for them to hear you, but you are close enough to flip a switch and send the train down the other set of tracks, to kill the one kid. what do you do?
It depends. Is the lonely kid a genius?
;D
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is the lonely kid a ridiculously good looking kid? wait. never mind. wrong thread.
anyway, I agree with Dameg on Andalite ethics. They are not human. They don't think like us. Their set of morals and ethics are completely different than us. Like I said, killing a million versus killing a billion could be the same to them as long its killing them and not hurting us. It might be equivalent to killing a few million ants versus killing a few billion ants would both be beneficial if it proved that human lives were saved.
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Thank you, Azure. You understood my point.
Now I'm still waiting for an explanation from Voodooqueen.
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so say you are walking past 2 sets of train tracks. you see 5 kids playing on one of them. on the other tracks, another kid is walking alone. you see a train coming towards the 5 kids, none of the kids see it since they all have their backs turned. you are too far for them to hear you, but you are close enough to flip a switch and send the train down the other set of tracks, to kill the one kid. what do you do?
It depends. Is the lonely kid a genius?
;D
the lonely kid is smart enough to have checked which track is the active one, and walk on the one that wouldn't be used.
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Well, obviously, given what you write
the smart kid is the one who doesn't stay alone :P
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I think we're going by the assumption that they are all equal, by virtue of all being Human. right? Instead of judging them in other ways like intelligence or physical fitness, or whatever.
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We were being sarcastic.
Having dark humour.
Otherwise people can see things differently.
Some will think " I'm gonna save 5 kids" but some will think "I can't kill a kid".
It might depend on how "rational" the person is.
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Thank you, Azure. You understood my point.
Now I'm still waiting for an explanation from Voodooqueen.
sorry i have been busy lately...
Of course you're not a nazi! but I have heard/read a biography of Diana Mosley where, when she was really pressed and shown a huge amount of visual evidence for the Holocaust said "Well it doesn't matter if Hitler killed 6 people or 6 million because people are still people." This is quite common in Holocaust deniers: they say that the numbers are exaggerated but that 600 people are just as bad as 6 million. Of course they don"t really believe what they are saying... Which leads me to a common feature of leftwing politics: moral equivalency, which is basically saying 'well our side did bad things too, both sides are equally wrong, insert culture specific examples here." it is a common debating tactic used by pacifists and terrorists alike: that a minor failure to confirm to the letter of the geneva convention on the part of western nations/democracies is just as bad as the massive abuses perpetrated by authoritarian regimes.
Now Alloran did more than a minor failure in terms of ethics, but in the grand scheme of things (galaxy wide enslavement) pretty minor...
On the train track example: you are more likely to save someones life if you are of the same race/similar looking/distantly related, called the selfish gene theory (that acts of altruism are actually ways to increase our genes chances for survival-if someone is similar to us they have the same genes...to summarise a complicated idea badly) spooky isn't it.
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Thank you, Azure. You understood my point.
Now I'm still waiting for an explanation from Voodooqueen.
sorry i have been busy lately...
Of course you're not a nazi! but I have heard/read a biography of Diana Mosley where, when she was really pressed and shown a huge amount of visual evidence for the Holocaust said "Well it doesn't matter if Hitler killed 6 people or 6 million because people are still people." This is quite common in Holocaust deniers: they say that the numbers are exaggerated but that 600 people are just as bad as 6 million. Of course they don"t really believe what they are saying... Which leads me to a common feature of leftwing politics: moral equivalency, which is basically saying 'well our side did bad things too, both sides are equally wrong, insert culture specific examples here." it is a common debating tactic used by pacifists and terrorists alike: that a minor failure to confirm to the letter of the geneva convention on the part of western nations/democracies is just as bad as the massive abuses perpetrated by authoritarian regimes.
Now Alloran did more than a minor failure in terms of ethics, but in the grand scheme of things (galaxy wide enslavement) pretty minor...
On the train track example: you are more likely to save someones life if you are of the same race/similar looking/distantly related, called the selfish gene theory (that acts of altruism are actually ways to increase our genes chances for survival-if someone is similar to us they have the same genes...to summarise a complicated idea badly) spooky isn't it.
So you suppose I said that but didn't think what I said... like this woman.
Some people here said that destroying a species with only few millions members isn't so important, but destroying a species with few billions members is important. I think that destroying a species, whatever the number, is important, because the species won't re-appear after that. You destroyed them, end!
And next time you do a stupid comparison between 2 persons who have nothing in common, be careful not to insult one of them.
Be careful, Voodooqueen, I don't really like your posts, and I am not alone to feel uncomfortable reading you.
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Vous nais pas Diana Mosley! You're not a hypocrite! Nor was I accusing you of being a hypocrite, rather I was accusing you of moral equivalency. You, unlike D Mosley who said things that she didn't believe in (like Diana Mosley who presumably said that to stop people from hounding her about being well a Nazi when it was obviously a evil idealogy). In fact going over your posts over all (on other discussions etc) I can be certain that you do believe what you said about the quantum virus on hork-bajir being the same as blowing up Earth... To me this is seems like equivalency, which I disagree with on principle. However you do raise a valid point:
So you suppose I said that but didn't think what I said... like this woman.
Some people here said that destroying a species with only few millions members isn't so important, but destroying a species with few billions members is important. I think that destroying a species, whatever the number, is important, because the species won't re-appear after that. You destroyed them, end!
And next time you do a stupid comparison between 2 persons who have nothing in common, be careful not to insult one of them.
Be careful, Voodooqueen, I don't really like your posts, and I am not alone to feel uncomfortable reading you.
namely that the destruction of a whole species is different from "killing 600 is the same as 6 million type moral-equivalency". Say a human government kills 60 million humans (like Chairman Mao) however because humans are a replacable commodity and this will not cause their total extinction, this is not as bad as killing say 10 million hork-bajir (causing the extinction of hork-bajir or near extinction) because those hork-bajir can never be replaced unlike chairman Mao's 60 million victims... If i am misinterpretating you tell me? It is not nice because killing 60 million humans should be far worse than killing 10 million hork-bajir, but because hork-bajir are a species, rather than a group within human society at large, the damage is irreversible?
Back to the problem at large: is killing 10 million hork-bajir just as bad as killing 6 billion humans (causing extinction to both). Well using Dameg's very valid point: Because the extinction of a whole species is irreversible, their respective population is irrelevant. Therefore, Alloran's use of the quantum virus is just as bad as 'quarantining Earth' in book 54.
However there are some important differences to consider: using a biological weapon will inevitable leave some survivors, as a few people are always immune to a disease. Nor would this have harmed the various animals, trees, Arn cultural artefacts and plants sharing the hork-bajir homeworld, moreover Alloran was more focused on number reduction and reducing the overall number of potential hosts...
Blowing up Earth would cause total extinction to all humans and would leave no survivors. It would also destroy all of earth's animals, culture (buildings like the louvre etc) and plants. So the damage would be even more irreversible.
I am terribly sorry to have made you uncomfortable. :'(
Chad, I reckon Alloran who realised early on that the yeerks were a threat actually volunteered or was the only person who allowed himself to be conscripted to lead such a mission. but that it was sheer arrogance of the Andalite government that caused them to only send Alloran and a small task force.
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1- Now you say I'm different to that Nazi, but you compared me to her as I was the same. Don't do any more this kind of mistake.
2- I don't say that killing 6 millions of Humans, even if the species is far to be destroyed, is acceptable. I would never they such a thing!
But you understood my point about species.
3- You're a little wrong about something at the end. Well, take a true example: I heard that leopards almost disappeared, thousands years ago, and even if they're still there, they're now victim of too much inbreeding. They become weaker and weaker as the time goes and will probably disappear totally one day. Now, take the same thing with a species who is almost destroyed because of the quantum virus. I know that the Hork-Bajirs were "made", but... Still, if a species is close to disappear, the last members won't have enough gene to reform a strong species. We had a question at school who could be about the beginning of Remnants (other series by Applegate): if the humanity was destroyed, you can save only 6 people, we give you 10 persons, who will you send? Some people said "the most intelligent", some other "the people who can have the more children", but I couldn't answer: to me, it was totally stupid, because 6 persons are useless to continue a species, and I couldn't decide who need to be saved! The teacher couldn't make me answer. I just can't decide.
And it's why I can't agree with you when you say that smart people must be saved more than others, or that the "stupid" people who make a lot of children are better. I don't think I can judge the other Humans like that, and who are you to judge the others?!
Something else, please think about it: "intelligence" and "knowledge" are 2 different things. Some people who are poor can be very intelligent, but don't have any way to go to school and have knowledge. Some other people are quite rich, can pay the best universities and will have a lot of knowledge, but it doesn't mean they're intelligent. To me, intelligence permit to understand the world, understand the other people and think by yourself. Knowledge comes more easily when you're intelligent, and it's also a way to improve your intelligence, but it's different.
PS: Well, it's one of my longest message on RAF, please applaud :p
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2- I don't say that killing 6 millions of Humans, even if the species is far to be destroyed, is acceptable. I would never they such a thing!
But you understood my point about species.
I think we can both safely agree that everybody on this board finds murdering 60 million is unacceptable. What am I saying is that killing 60 million humans if you still have 5.2 billion left over is not worse than wiping out a whole species of 10 million, even though more people were killed. It's more like 'which of these evil actions is worse,' kind of thing.
3- You're a little wrong about something at the end. Well, take a true example: I heard that leopards almost disappeared, thousands years ago, and even if they're still there, they're now victim of too much inbreeding. They become weaker and weaker as the time goes and will probably disappear totally one day. Now, take the same thing with a species who is almost destroyed because of the quantum virus. I know that the Hork-Bajirs were "made", but... Still, if a species is close to disappear, the last members won't have enough gene to reform a strong species. We had a question at school who could be about the beginning of Remnants (other series by Applegate): if the humanity was destroyed, you can save only 6 people, we give you 10 persons, who will you send? Some people said "the most intelligent", some other "the people who can have the more children", but I couldn't answer: to me, it was totally stupid, because 6 persons are useless to continue a species, and I couldn't decide who need to be saved! The teacher couldn't make me answer. I just can't decide.
And it's why I can't agree with you when you say that smart people must be saved more than others, or that the "stupid" people who make a lot of children are better. I don't think I can judge the other Humans like that, and who are you to judge the others?!
Something else, please think about it: "intelligence" and "knowledge" are 2 different things. Some people who are poor can be very intelligent, but don't have any way to go to school and have knowledge. Some other people are quite rich, can pay the best universities and will have a lot of knowledge, but it doesn't mean they're intelligent. To me, intelligence permit to understand the world, understand the other people and think by yourself. Knowledge comes more easily when you're intelligent, and it's also a way to improve your intelligence, but it's different.
PS: Well, it's one of my longest message on RAF, please applaud :p
Twas cheetahs and it was like 2 cheetahs are the ancestors of every cheetah on the planet. There were more Hork-Bajir left over than 2 though.
this is why I could never bring myself to read Remnants: the whole concept of the whole human race being destroyed except 6 people is just so depressing, within 4 generations or less everyone would be insane, within 8 generations or less everybody would be having horrible birth defects(unless you'r potentional survivors were screened for genetic defects which is probably how you would choose)... Same with all those post apocalyptic scenarios (like in I am legend: Will Smith and 1 lady and her son must rebreed the human race! what a happy ending!) it just really depresses me. But then what could be more depressing than having your whole species become extinct, it tortures the very centre of our beings, namely our selfish genes...
The intelligence and judgement debate is complicated and we could spend eternity debating it, but to summarise my position: these sorts of space whale wars are awful and you would have to choose and judge eventually, even if it would be immoral, it wouldn't be as bad as the results of being paralysed by your conscience and not acting to save anyone...
We applaud:)
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About Remnants, I think KA Applegate made an end that "cure" a little that feeling. Now, it's true that it's totally depressing, and I had the same feeling.
About the 2 cheetahs, I always had doubt about that... I think it's more a species with some members who had a mutation and give this mutation to their children and little by little the species change. Well, it isn't the subject here...
You're right, during a war you have to choose. But you can't say, before, what you'll choose, because many things will contribute to change your choice. Each case is different and you can't say that it'll be like this, that you'll do that... You can't really know.
About the 5 children and the other child, I think it'd be instinctive. You'll try to save which one(s) you think you can save in this second. You won't really think "if I save this one, then it'll be like that...". It'll be a reflex. And everybody will have a different one.
Voodoo, I don't say that everybody have to do the right things all the time, or anything. I don't say that you can't think what you think. I'm not a good example of pure virtue >:D But I have to tell you that some of your posts, where you judge some people, some cultures, because of their "intelligence" made me uncomfortable. So please, just be careful not to be insulting to other members. You have the right to say what you think, as did Hitler... But be careful about the consequences...
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Chad, I reckon Alloran who realised early on that the yeerks were a threat actually volunteered or was the only person who allowed himself to be conscripted to lead such a mission. but that it was sheer arrogance of the Andalite government that caused them to only send Alloran and a small task force.
That could be true. Maybe Alloran would have sent a larger force, but higher ups weren't taking it seriously.
On a galaxy wide scale, I guess it's the equivalent of killing the citizens of a small mcountry on Earth, in order to keep them from destroying the whole world.
But still, I maintain that it was wrong.
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As Dameg makes the very important point, it is far worse than killing the inhabitants of a whole country...
but then as Anijen says, he didn't actually release the quantum virus: Aldrea and Dak did, ultimate proof that adults are not useless...
Having said all of this, I (and other Alloran supporters) in our efforts to distinguish Alloran from the "Quarantine" of book 54 are perhaps falling into this trap... Namely that we are seeking reasons why blowing up Earth is wrong, but quantum virus the hork-bajir is permitted, certainly what Alloran did made life easier for the Animorphs (fewer shock troops in the yeerk empire) and therefore advantaged the humans...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralMyopia
But yeah, herd animals like the andalites never needed to domesticate other animals to do hard work for them, so they don't keep pets or use animals for labour, so working with aliens doesn't come easily to them. However it shown in canon that their is less internal fighting than humans.
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i really dislike how Alloran used a quantum virus, shouldn't there be some other way to end the yeerks there?
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or at the very least try to tailor it to yeerks instead of hosts.
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I think there are some interesting concepts being thrown around in this thread, so I'll post. What we're arguing over here in actuality is whether morality is absolute or relative to the situation. Whether dropping the quantum virus was wrong depends entirely on what the viewer considers "most important." But first:
In my own opinion it does not matter if the Hork-Bajir were numerous or few, intelligent or non-intelligent. What matters is that they were a sentient race with a functioning and very real culture that meant a great deal to them. To question another's experiences as legitimate based on their intelligence is absurd. That's like saying the powerful religious experience of a retarded person is irrelevant because they're not very bright and have difficulty explaining what happened. So from that angle we must consider the Hork-Bajir to have the same moral weight as a planet of human beings.
From that angle, Alloran nearly exterminated a vast number of innocent people because of a war. I believe that what Alloran did was necessary: without his actions a mostly cruel and twisted enemy would have been far worse. (Especially looking at it from his perspective). However, in a way I believe he "deserved" Visser Three for his actions. If while having freedom he kills without mercy, then let him kill again without it. It's "karmic backlash" as it were. I guess we could make the General's argument in "A Few Good Men" here and say that someone had to have the blood on their hands. But if you were in his position, could you have done it? And even if you could, what would be left of you after the deed was done?