Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Darth Zakryn on February 05, 2011, 12:12:20 PM
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So. Who would win in a long, drawn-out, global war? Yeerks or humans? There are over six billion humans, not six million, six billion, and maybe, what, only a few hundred thousand Yeerks controlling a meager ten thousand plus hosts? Sure, they have advanced technology, but there are hundreds of millions upon hundreds of millions of humans, all with fair levels of technology, if not up to Andalite or even Yeerk standards.
I guess it depends on how it happened. The "open war" we saw in the last few books was disappointing to me. I imagined it happening VERY fast, lightning-fast strikes on major population centers, rounding up humans and their leaders to be infested, and quickly taking control in full view of the public. If they HAD done it that way, we'd be screwed. And really, that was the way Visser Three SHOULD have done it.
So, we're going to be creating a new fictional scenario.
If at the beginning of this hypothetical war humans learned immediately what was happening and were fully aware of their enemy's level of infiltration, they could better combat it. It also depends on if a good number of nations are allied. Will all NATO and western allies unite as one to fight the Yeerk threat? I think Yeerks impersonating the leaders of nations they want to take over wouldn't work as well as they think it might, because any military general or political leader acting even slightly out of character is going to be regarded with great suspicion.
And then there's the greatest advantage on our side: adaptability. If humans managed to capture or destroy a few Yeerk ships and secured some of the wreckage to study, they could create new technologies to fight the Yeerks by reverse engineering.
So, in the end, I think humans will win, but it will be a long, horribly bloody battle with massive casualties.
Oh, and I'm not even mentioning that as time goes on, the Yeerks would have to devote additional reinforcements to Earth to fight the humans, giving the Andalites time to push back (maybe even to form an alliance with the humans).
Thoughts?
BTW how DO you create polls? Any help?
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Probaly the Yeerks, to be honest. 'Cos they have diffrent animals and all they can take over and aliens. PLus they could turn the humans against eachother (arn't I evil minded? ::))
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They could just cook the whole planet from orbit.
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They could just cook the whole planet from orbit.
If they did that they wouldn't have any hosts left to infest.
Honestly, I'd have to say the Yeerks.
Though Homo Sapiens would put up a dang good fight because one of the main differences between Yeerks and humans is humans never give up when things seem hopeless, and the Yeerks do.
"Give me liberty or give me death.' A human named Patrick Henry said that. I wonder if the Yeerks knew before they came to conquer Earth that humans said things like that. I wonder if the Yeerks knew what they were getting into." -Aximili Esgarrouth Isthill"
Humans may be technologically primitive, not to mention physically weak, what with tottering around on two spindly legs. But if you’re in a situation that requires instant adaptability to change, and boundless courage, you should always have a couple of humans along with you.” ~ MM#2
“I have a saying for you. I got it from a fortune cookie. ‘Fall down seven times, get up eight.’ You know what that means? That means you don’t ever just lie there. You always come back for more. You never give up. You never surrender. Maybe you die, but you never surrender.” ~ Marco
At the time we thought it was kind of corny. But then, the more we thought about it, it wasn’t corny at all. It was…inevitable.”
I accessed the memories. “Live free or die?”
“Live free or die,” Marco echoed. “My mother walks out of here a free woman, or she dies.”
“They attack against insane odds. They defend what can’t be defended. Outnumbered, outgunned, surrounded, hopeless, they will still fight, and fight, and fight, till they are each and every one dead.” ~ Edriss 562
“A human will fight even when he knows he can’t win. Maybe our species is just a little crazy. But human history is full of cases where a handful of guys would fight an entire army. They’d get stomped, but they’d fight anyway.” ~ Jake
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Am I the only one betting on Homo sapiens? Sure, the Yeerks have the potential to do all that, but who's to say they WILL? How many times have the Yeerks done something or NOT done something that could have turned the tide of the war?
Personally, if they did it like I said, super fast with lightning raids so that humans would be hit before they even knew what attacked them, then yes, the Yeerks would win. But hell, Visser Three is an incompetent brutal **** who can't think up a good plan and only cares about posturing.
Actually, I tend to compare Visser Three and Visser One to both ends of the spectrum of Slytherin House (aside from the fact that HP was created long after Animorphs): Pure ambition versus pure cunning.
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It's funny, I am actually part of an Animorphs RP site (http://animorphsexpansion.proboards.com/) that takes place in a universe where the yeerks won.
I don't think the yeerks would ever get all the humans, but I don't think the humans would be able to drive the yeerks away either. I think they would fall into a system where yeerks rule the cities, but free humans rule the wilderness and constantly cause trouble for the yeerks.
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I think it depends on too many inconceivable elements. Each person is imagining the war in different ways.
Personally, if it weren't "super fast with lightning raids" then I think we would have a fair chance. It certainly would be a bloody war with many lives lost, but if aware of the problem I think, depending on how humans fought back, we could put up a good enough fight.
But see, it's a lot of 'depending' and 'ifs and buts' - too unpredictable to just choose a side.
Plus, let's not forget about the damage the Animorphs were able to do as a small guerrilla force - if humans were aware of the problem they could potentially destroy Yeerk pools or Kandronas and really hinder the Yeerk invasion.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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I think it's somewhat relevant to point out that maybe the Yeerks only attempted the invasion of Earth BECAUSE they could do it via infiltration. Considering our society is more advanced than, say, the Hork-Bajir, we would be more prone to understanding our enemy's weaknesses and being able to combat them. As people have mentioned, our adaptability, numbers and sheer force of will would be somewhat intimidating if the battle began on an open playing field.
Like Ben pointed out, humans would be capable of destroying Yeerk pools and Kandrona. An open war would prevent the Yeerks from hiding these underground or disguising them as something else, limiting their ability to construct and maintain a Yeerk pool and a system of rejuvinating the Yeerks inside hosts. It took the secrecy at the beginning of the Animorphs' war to allow the Yeerks to have their pool already up and running, with hosts moving smoothly in and out. That made it more difficult to attack. If it could never get established? I think that would be a huge blow to the Yeerks ever gaining enough power to take us on openly. Afterall, every single Yeerk with a host needs to feed every three days - if humans were constantly aware of the process and were able to attack when the Yeerks were at their weakest, we'd have an advantage.
With that said, the technological advantages, the weapon-like hosts - especially Hork-Bajir, and Visser Three's morphing abilities could all be used to their full extent in open warfare. No need to hide your bladed troops - send them out among our squishy population! And no need for Visser Three to blend in, he could just morph something enourmous and stomp around Godzilla style, if it would subdue us humans. Dracon beams, spacecraft and their weapons - all of this would be far more effective if it wasn't hidden. At the same time, our military power would be used openly.
I still think it's a toss up, just thought those were some interesting things to think about.
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Probaly the Yeerks, to be honest. 'Cos they have diffrent animals and all they can take over and aliens. PLus they could turn the humans against eachother (arn't I evil minded? ::))
never underestimate human ability to adapt and humanity's brutality.
those two traits have what moved us up to the top of the food chain and kept us at each other throats ever since.
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Wow...that is a tough one...but I would have to save humans would win.Yes the yeerks would have better weapons and such but humans have one things yeerks don't have: Faith/Hope
Humans will fight even when there is a chance that they might die or lose,but they will at least give it a try and say"Hey we did the best we possibly could."
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Humans would fight, we'd fight to the last man, but that's hardly the same as winning. Depending on how the invasion happened, I think we'd manage to do some serious damage if we had the time, but realistically we weren't going to win.
For one thing, some of you are seriously underestimating the strength of the Yeerk's stronghold on Earth. They had enough power to basically build a small city under a decent sized American town without anyone knowing, and God knows how many other cities they might have infiltrated. The Chee themselves told the Animorphs that at least one major world leader was a Controller, which not only means that they had an incredible amount of influence, but also implies the possibility that the Yeerks weren't solely based in the US. The general lack of a real response by the US military in the final books might actually be due to powerful members of the government or military being Controllers.
Okay so let's assume for a minute that by some miracle we were able to mount a successful counter-offensive against the Yeerks. We start to fight back, starve some high ranking Controllers to get important intelligence, maybe even take out some Bug Fighters and ground-based Pools. Big deal, they have hundreds of fighters at least, not to mention a Blade Ship and Pool Ship. They also have ship-based Yeerk Pools so destroying ones are the ground will barely weaken them.
You're also forgetting that the Yeerks don't need all of us. As I believe Marco pointed out in the later books, just because their are 6 billion of us doesn't mean we're all worth the effort. If they take 1 billion and we start causing trouble, what's to stop them wiping out the rest of us from orbit? Nothing we can really do about that, and the Yeerks still win.
One final thing we have yet to consider: the Andalite military. The reason they didn't come to our rescue as the Animorphs had always hoped is because by the time they knew how bad things were on Earth and sent backup, they had already decided we were a lost cause. Their plan wasn't to try and save us, but to annihilate us and take the Yeerks out in the process.
So yeah, not to sound pessimistic, but humanity would be screwed either way.
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You're also forgetting that the Yeerks don't need all of us. As I believe Marco pointed out in the later books, just because their are 6 billion of us doesn't mean we're all worth the effort. If they take 1 billion and we start causing trouble, what's to stop them wiping out the rest of us from orbit? Nothing we can really do about that, and the Yeerks still win.
I always wondered, Phoenix, if the Yeerks would have bothered with the infestation of third world countries--which, ironically, seem to have the most numbers.
Any thoughts on that, or do you want me to make that into an individual topic?
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We have no way of knowing if they did or not, but based on what is said in Visser, the Yeerks seemed to be concentrating on taking over America because it was considered to be one of the most powerful nations on Earth. This does have advantages, but lesser developed nations would've been more ideal targets in a way, as many are highly populated and also less likely to be able to mount a resistance.
Based on what we know of Yeerk psychology, I would say it's doubtful they attempted large scale infestation of third world countries. They were trying for voluntary hosts where possible and organisations such as The Sharing wouldn't have been practical. On the other hand, the Yeerks could've tried posing as some kind of charity group. It's an idea to consider for a fic perhaps.
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But what about places in Africa? I've heard things about aids and other epidemics. Despite the large numbers and how quickly the Yeerks would be able to infest these third world hosts, would they want to?
And I was talking about this hypothetical world where the Yeerks win. After gaining access to more human hosts than ever before woulds they even bother to infest the third world? Or would thet simply pick off undesirables to limit Earth's population? And, by undesirables I'm speaking from a Yeerk way of thinking--damaged hosts (to them, of course) are not fit for infestation, as seen with the Auxilaries.
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Personally, I think the humans win because we've imagined so many different versions of your typical alien invasion.
We could simply use the tactics that best suit the situation. In the case of the Yeerks, this calls for something out of Independence Day.
Let's just hope that we have better computers than Goldblum and Smith had in that case.
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Phoenix: The only ships that could cause major damage from orbit are, at least from my point of view, probably only the Blade ship and the Pool ship, respectively. Really, can you imagine a Bug fighter having enough power to roast a city? A CITY? Sure, a building, maybe, but not a whole CITY. If they had several warships in orbit, sure, but throughout the series all we ever see is the Blade ship, the Pool ship/mother ship, and a few hundred Bug fighters. Also, you're forgetting that humanity might actually be able to somehow secure a few Bug fighters or even salvage wrecked ones and learn how to fight space battles using them. Hell, all that's needed is to place a nuke in one salvaged Bug fighter, send a human crew to fly it up to the Blade ship, and KABOOM! Minus one warship. Really, this hypothetical war could go any way.
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Phoenix: The only ships that could cause major damage from orbit are, at least from my point of view, probably only the Blade ship and the Pool ship, respectively. Really, can you imagine a Bug fighter having enough power to roast a city? A CITY? Sure, a building, maybe, but not a whole CITY. If they had several warships in orbit, sure, but throughout the series all we ever see is the Blade ship, the Pool ship/mother ship, and a few hundred Bug fighters. Also, you're forgetting that humanity might actually be able to somehow secure a few Bug fighters or even salvage wrecked ones and learn how to fight space battles using them. Hell, all that's needed is to place a nuke in one salvaged Bug fighter, send a human crew to fly it up to the Blade ship, and KABOOM! Minus one warship. Really, this hypothetical war could go any way.
You just said the exact thing I said by saying "pulling an Independence Day".
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Well, I'm just arguing for the same side! With much more detail. ;D
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Yeerks would always win this battle due to superior technology and numbers.
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Ok, I know it's been a while since this thread was discussed, but at the risk of starting a flame war, I'm going to revive it with some new information on the Yeerk versus human debate.
In KA's work, the Andalites, and the Yeerks (and most ALL other spacefaring fictional species) seemed to be based on Star Trek, more specifically, the Federation. This is a HIGHLY erroneous decision in my opinion, as the Federation is shown to HAVE NO ARMY. None. Whatsoever. Zero. Zilch. Nada. They have VERY powerful ships that they assume can and always will be available to be used for air support, but if they run into sensor jamming, shields, environmental conditions, additional warships, etc, that aerial support will quickly be cut off and the ground forces (such as they are) overwhelmed.
KA makes it seem as though ground battles are going to be pointless because of space/air support, which again lends credence to her basing her series' technology mainly on ST and the Federation. But ground support is just as vital and NECESSARY as a fully equipped mobile aerial/space force. We've seen a few examples of ground battles, such as in #18. The Decision, and those were AWFUL. The opposing forces wore NO ARMOR, they had no artillery support, no armored vehicles, no mines, and they basically just THREW THEMSELVES, unarmored, at the enemy to be devoured (in a Napeolonic era mass-charge effect) while small picket and support ships with transpolar/low-orbit/high-orbit capability provided cover fire. But again, this is not surprising considering the feudal nature of the Andalites. Yeerks (and Andalites) may sneer at tanks, mortars, grenade launchers, minefields, and nuclear weapons, but if we were to employ those same principles with much more advanced technology behind them I bet they wouldn't sneer at them for long!
Now, back to the orbital battle. Like I've said before, since the Yeerks were tied up elsewhere, they had a limited number of ships to use at Earth to subjugate a species of billions, which to me is just slightly less stupid than invading Nazi Germany with only 100 troops while you devote the bulk of your army to other locations! In any event, only TWO of those ships are shown high destructive power: the Blade ship and the Pool ship, which provide the role of capital ships. Bug fighters simply would NOT be able to generate the kind of power needed to cause significant damage from orbit, used as they are in an anti-fighter role. Now, let's examine the Blade ship and the Pool ship, shall we?
Like I have said in this reply, Animorphs (at least their technology) seems to have been based heavily on a Star Trek/pro-Federation stance. The destructive capacity of Star Trek ships is limited to MEGATONS, not GIGATONS. And no matter how many battles are going to be started from space by the Yeerks (i.e. raining down destruction on massive population centers), they are STILL going to have their hands full since they want at least a few hundred million to at most a few billion hosts, and too much collateral damage would hugely impede that. Thus, a good percentage of the battles are going to be fought on the ground.
Then there's also the possibility that we can ally with other countries (even ones we hate if it got desperate enough) to launch a coordinated strike of nuclear missiles and other WMDs against the most powerful ships in orbit. It's been stated the Yeerk and Andalite spaceships are shielded, but they don't seem to act like normal force fields seen in other sci-fi, but let's just say they work like Federation shields (since, as I've said, KA has based the Andalites/Yeerks on the Federation). I've been looking up the shield capacity for Federation and other Star Trek ships, and they can only handle so much before they collapse. I believe they can shield on orders of terawatts to gigawatts, but I'm not sure. In any case, there's THOUSANDS of nuclear weapons around the world, and launching those THOUSANDS would eventually drop the shields long enough to score massive hits. And even if all of the Bug fighters in orbit are Draconing those incoming missiles along with their Pool ship and Blade ship commanders, they STILL can't stop ALL of them. Then there's also the untold possibility of some of this debris drifting to Earth and humans getting ahold of it and reverse engineering the technology...
And to the final argument in this debate. The Yeerks' ability to infest and pass as other humans. Well, if humans were AWARE of the Yeerks' ability to control a host body, that would just increase suspicion and paranoia to levels previously unseen around the world. Anyone acting in even the SLIGHTEST suspicious manner during a wartime situation such as this would be detained for three days until their innocence was determined and they were proven to be Yeerk-free. They might even be killed in some of the lesser, more hostile Third World nations.
So. There you have it. What do you think? I want a good, healthy debate. Opinions, people, opinions! ;)
P.S.: It's a shame KA didn't base her weapons on Star Wars as opposed to Star Trek, as those shows are all about war and destruction...
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BTW how DO you create polls? Any help?
you click the create poll button beside the start new topic button... or something like that
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I wonder if the new Battle: Los Angeles would change any viewpoints...
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Please, people, if you're going to post here, post in regards to the topic subject.
I still haven't found out the shield strength of Andalite and Yeerk forces (which are supposed to be based on Star Trek/The Federation) but I HAVE learned not all shields have to be the same. They can be different.
More on this later...
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We must consider the strengths and weaknesses of both types of techonology--energy vs projectile weaponry.
For example; I don't believe Dracon beams recquire reloading, but I think they run on a battery.
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Projectile weapons take maybe several seconds to reload, so that's not much. Sadly, I think since the Yeerks have "Federation"-based technology, they will eventually need to have to take a drained Dracon beam back to a recharger. And do Yeerks use grenades? Rocket launchers? Those can provide enough cover fire for time to reload projectile weapons. It's not projectile weapons that are inferior, it's the DESIGN of those weapons that are either superior or inferior. The Yeerks and Andalites have this attitude that if it doesn't run on energy or looks big and "sci-fi-ey," then it is primitive cavemen level technology. Even in Star Wars and Halo, where big energy weapons and "sci-fi-ey" things are the norm, they still have "slugthrowers."
When KA based her species on the Federation, that, unfortunately, gave them this view that the future means phasing back some of the essential stuff, when it's just the opposite! That stuff gets improved and upgraded. "More advanced" doesn't necessarily mean "better," and no matter how powerful your space and air forces are, you're still eventually going to need a well-equipped mobile ground army, which we have in spades.
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I would have to say humans.
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I would have to say humans.
Humans all the way. Sheer numbers give it to the apes. Remember, V3 remarked on this in #1.
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I say we would win for the reasons of number, firepower, and determination. Visser One landed on earth during the Gulf War and saw a couple guys get blown up by a tank and then described our weaponry as primitive yet powerfull. Picture this threat, we evacuate all the major cities where their are yeerk pools. Then we send in a helicopter or military jet with a nuke attached and threaten to drop it if they don't leave. Different threat strap a couple nuclear bombs to a rocket while a blade ship or pool ship is in the atmosphere. Then if we did just a straight out fight on every street in the world I'd say we would win by the sheer force of combined military forces, guerrilla fighters, people trying to save their own skin, and people driven insane by the war, there would be a huge bang and then then about 20 hork bjair would be full of holes. Seriously they could have done a movie about guys kind of like the A team rescuing captured humans, bombing yeerk pools, and eventually assassinating high ranked yeerks.
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I'd watch that! ;D
And it's like I said; the Yeerks are powerful enough to DESTROY people from orbit, but, if they want to take enough humans, they need better ground armies. Only a soldier can conquer and hold territory, which is what they're trying to do to Earth. They didn't even equip Hork-Bajir with some kind of material to resist bullets! Was anyone else outraged that Visser One sent a group of Hork-Bajir to the Doubleday's command headquarters WITHOUT Kevlar?! Come on, can't you make some in Hork-Bajir size? This shows that the Yeerks based their ground combat doctrines on the Andalites, who are largely feudal. Thus, if they want to destroy Earth, they can do it, but good luck holding ONTO it. Visser One saw the truth, but you didn't want to listen! Way to screw things up, fat, corrupt, corporate bureaucrats on the Council of Thirteen! ::)
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I probably would watch it to. For an Abunorphs movie it would be funny if they called it "The A team"