Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: NateSean on December 17, 2010, 01:55:20 PM
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Here's a link to a Chee related discussion started in 2008. Many boards frown on necromancy and I'd rather just link the discussion for reference and start a new one.
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1869.15
That said this is my observation followed by a question as to what the rest of you think.
The Chee are programmed for non-violence. So to me that means that they are physically incapable of taking an action which directly harms someone or something. I say directly because we see several examples of the Chee either condoning, or being the indirect causes of violence.
First example:
The Chee are sentient beings and therefore able to make decisions. Erek and a few other Chee make the decision to find the Pemalite crystal and change their programming. So, before the events of the Android, Erek clearly sees violence as an acceptable method to get the job done with the Yeerks. This would suggest that while he is programmed not to harm someone, he is not programmed not to consider harming someone.
Second Example:
The Chee, namely Erek, frequently impart information onto the Animorphs. You could say that Erek doesn't know what they are going to do with this information, but come on. There hasn't been a single mission outside of simple reconnaissance that didn't end in violence of some kind. So either Erek is repeating some self-affirming mantra in his head like, "I do not know what they are going to do, I do not know what they are going to do," or he still considers violence an acceptable method as long as he is not the one doing it.
Any thoughts to add?
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You know, that confused me as well because we see in #26 that Erek has no qualms with NOT telling the Animorphs that, you know, the Howlers are CHILDREN who have NO IDEA that they are SLAUGHTERING INNOCENTS because they MURDERED HIS CREATORS. He knows there's a 99.97 percent likelihood that they are going to die instead of, say, having their minds wiped, and yet he stands idly by while doing nothing. To me, it felt like that went directly against his nonviolence programming since he's aiding in committing a direct act of revenge unless of course it's like you said, and he's repeating in his head "I don't know what's going to happen" but that seems unlikely. The ethical programming in Data's positronic net, at least, was MUCH more detailed.
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Exactly, its not an ethical thing. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the Pemalites put in the non violent restriction specifically because they knew of the dangerous potential.
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The Chee are capable of aggression, anger, and ill-will towards others, apparently, but not capable of acting on any of those emotions causing immediate harm. Humans are a very violent group quite often, as Ax mentions more than once, so it's impossible for the Chee to live in human society without allowing harm to happen. As someone said in the "Things I'm not allowed to do as an Animorph" thread, they aren't responsible for preventing harm... just not causing it. The Chee are sentient, and able to realize that pacifism isn't always the best answer, particularly after watching the entire population of Pemalites be destroyed in mass genocide. They are able to be angry (see #26), they are able to spy and aid others intent on harm (I don't believe the mantra stuff. They've lived with humans for thousands of years, and they would know better.), they can hinder others from coming to harm (he blocks the doorway several times from the Howlers in #26), and they can be forced to choose the lesser of two evils when their hand is forced. (see #54).
I want to make sure we understand the question... are we trying to find the limits and extent of the Chee programing?
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I want to make sure we understand the question... are we trying to find the limits and extent of the Chee programing?
It wasn't so much of a "lets find out" question as it was a "What does everyone else think" question.
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Personally, I always wondered why the Chee were created to be incredibly strong but then had the "pacifist" thing engineered into them so they wouldn't be used as a weapon. If the Pemalites just wanted friends and playmates, they didn't have to make them so strong. It made no sense to me, unless I'm forgetting some part of the story.
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The Chee were probably expected to do some menial labor as well. Things the Pemalites couldn't do. If Pemalites were as strong as the average human being, for example. Chee may have been at least partially intended in much the same way the Replicants of Blade Runner.
It's just like the Hork-Bajir's blades. They weren't intended as weapons but as tools.
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That makes sense.
Also, I think they would want to be pacifist because they can never forget. They'd always remember those they hurt and kill as sharply and clearly as if they had just done it.
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They were made from denser alloys because the Pemalites' homeworld's gravity was said to be "four times stronger than Earth's" so naturally that would make them stronger as well. Why they're so FAST is another question... strength doesn't affect SPEED, so how in HELL did Erek get to the Pemalite ship maybe a few miles out to sea in LESS THAN TEN MINUTES? Especially while being UNDERWATER, which reduces speed...
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Well, stronger legs would be useful in running and swimming... And he did know exactly where he was going. Maybe he used a car and made it invisible so no one would stop him. I dunno about that last part... wild possibility.
Okay, so what do y'all think about the Chee's ability to scare or intimidate others? Could they project an image of Godzilla or something and scare everyone away, so long as they didn't harm them? And what about destruction? Are there any instances in the books where a Chee destroys something? In #26, he 'makes handholds in the doorway' for him to hold while blocking the Howlers, but what kind of limitations do you think the Chee would have on desctruction?
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To use a term I barely understand, it's clear that the non-violence "supergoal" does not consist of "minimize the likelihood of violent harm to any sentient creatures" but rather something like "minimize the likelihood of Chee activities causing violent harm to living creatures." That's why, in the last book, Erek won't voluntarily join the Animorphs on the Pool ship; he can be coerced into participating by threatening a bystander, but he cannot be coerced into activating a powerful weapons system. The goal is probabilistic, meaning that they can decide that it is "wrong" or "incomplete" if other goals conflict with it, up to a point.
The place I'm getting these trippy words: http://singinst.org/ourresearch/publications/CFAI/index.html
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Okay, I just read the other thread linked to in the first post here, and the posters there seem to think that the Chee could not harm any living thing. Was it any living thing, or sentient beings? Could they kill bugs? And what about plants? They had to do something with all of the dead organic matter (aka, food) that they used during their times as humans. And is all harm considered violence? I don't think so. Yeah, electrocuting Rachel musta hurt... a lot... but it helped her. It wasn't violent. Resetting a broken bone is painful, but no one would consider it violence.
Here's a section from book #10:
"How long has this been going on?" Cassie
asked.
Erek smiled warmly. "I helped to build the great
pyramid."
"You designed the pyramids?"
"No, no, of course not. We have never interfered
in human affairs. I was a slave. I helped
to quarry the stone. It was a challenge, because I was
new at pretending to be human. I had to hide my
real strength, of course. The Pemalite home world
had a gravity four times stronger than Earth's.
Naturally, we were designed for that gravity, which
means we are quite powerful by human standards."
"And you stayed as a slave?" Jake asked. "You
could have taken over Egypt. You could have taken over the
world."
"No. We are not the Yeerks," he said
coldly. "You see, when our creators made us,
they hardwired us for nonviolence. We are
not capable of hurting another living being. No Chee
has ever taken a life."
Notice the bold portions. Obviously, the Chee have interfered to some degree, because hello, they were passing as humans. That in itself is interference. And there is a mention of them providing ideas and things to certain people throughout the series (such as helping Pasteur). And there is also the fact that they were spying on the Yeerks (a sentient species) to help the human race. But, they don't interfere. ::)
And also, what counts as 'harm' and what counts as a living 'being'? I think it is safe to assume that plants aren't included. Do bugs? Do rodents? Domesticated animals? Wild animals? Dictionary.com defines 'being' as "conscious, mortal existence" and also as "a living thing". Thanks to the insanity that is the English language, this isn't too helpful. Does anyone recall any instances of any Chee eating meat or swatting flies? And also, I think that this excerpt may be of interest: <How did you convince the Yeerks that you
are one of them?> Ax asked him.
Erek turned off his hologram and became a
machine once again. And then the front of his head
split open. Inside his steel and ivory head was a
chamber, just a few inches in diameter.
And inside that chamber was a gray slug,
helpless, unable to escape. Tiny wires, no
thicker than hairs, wrapped around it.
<Yeerk!> Ax hissed.
"Yes," Erek said. "The Yeerks
believe I am human. I accepted infestation. But
of course the Yeerk cannot make a Controller of me. I made a
place for him instead. He sees nothing. Knows
nothing. I tapped his memory, not the other way around. And now I can pass
among the Yeerks like one of them."
So apparently, they can definitely interfere (even if they claim not to, they aren't hardwired not to....... It's impossible to coexist with or even observe something without influencing it in some way.). And they can also be an inconvenience to other beings, to say the least. Erek was able to be a barricade when the Howlers were attacking. And also, he caused the Pemalite ship to expel everyone aboard it. But back to the issue of harm. Where do you think they draw the line there? I figure harm would be non-desirable or non-desired pain/discomfort/etc. Pulling a bandaid surely can't be against their programming if they are able to electrocute, perform CPR (not a gentle procedure) or reattach limbs, etc. Pain, in all its variations, can be beneficial, and their programming must somehow distinguish between hurt (helpful) and hurt (violence).
And here's a real puzzle: can the Chee cause chaos and destruction, so long as no one gets hurt? They can obviously deceive (see imprisoned Yeerk) and they can pick favorites (The Chee say they can't let the human race fall because dogs are 'intertwined' with them... favoritism). Also, it's impossible to live in human society without at some point inflicting some amount of emotional harm. Is there a line there? I imagine the Chee to be a generally peaceful (duh?) but they can argue/disagree (many Chee don't agree with Erek telling the Ani's about them.) and they can show anger (for example, at the Howlers, who are still a sentient species).
I hope my Weathel-worthy rant isn't too confusing or incomprehensible. Feedback, please?
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Well, obviously emotional harm isn't out. How do you thinkt hat Yeerk feels about spending years trapped somewhere, with no way to escape?
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Well, obviously emotional harm isn't out. How do you thinkt hat Yeerk feels about spending years trapped somewhere, with no way to escape?
Good point. I don't see that as being much worse than screaming at and berating someone, or even bullying (not that I really think they would, but I don't see them as programmed not to.).
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Does anyone recall any instances of any Chee eating meat or swatting flies?
Yeah, I am fairly confident that Eric eats a hamburger in one of the books. Marco mocks him for not having extra cheese or something, then explains the food is being incinerated.
The way I see it, the Chee are hard-wired for Non Violence. They cannot commit physical violence. They can do pretty much anything else, but they don't like to (it goes against the spirit of the programming, even if it doesn't contradict the letter of the programming.
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Well, obviously emotional harm isn't out. How do you thinkt hat Yeerk feels about spending years trapped somewhere, with no way to escape?
It's ironic that the Yeerk--a being who traps and enslaves other races-- is a prisoner. There's a fanfic with Erek's Yeerk's POV on the situation.
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Is it a slash fic?
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No...no it's not.
Don't think an Android and a yeerk are capable of doing...whatever it is you think they're capable of doing.
I'm not judging.
Those fics are just not my sort of thing.
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Don't tempt ColdGreenSoda. They'll find a way to do it.
I've actually seen a few fics from Erek's Yeerk's POV - I believe Alikat522 covered it as one of the vignettes in A Matter of Magnitude (http://"http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6049933/2/A_Matter_of_Magnitude"). /pimping bff
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Apologies for reviving this thread, but something occurred to me which I don't think has been brought up before in this thread.
Okay, so we know that Erek used the Pemalite crystal to alter his programming to allow violence. Technically his own programming should've prevented him from doing this, but let's ignore that since we know that's what happened. This would mean that when the Howlers cam along to wipe out the Pemalites, all the Chee had to do was grab a crystal and give themselves the ability to fight back and save their masters. Obviously the peaceful Pemalites wouldn't have wanted this, but surely at least one Chee (eg. Erek) would've realised this possibility? On the other hand, I guess even the trusting Pemalites probably wouldn't have left such powerful technology lying around.
Just something to think about...
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Apologies for reviving this thread, but something occurred to me which I don't think has been brought up before in this thread.
Okay, so we know that Erek used the Pemalite crystal to alter his programming to allow violence. Technically his own programming should've prevented him from doing this, but let's ignore that since we know that's what happened. This would mean that when the Howlers cam along to wipe out the Pemalites, all the Chee had to do was grab a crystal and give themselves the ability to fight back and save their masters. Obviously the peaceful Pemalites wouldn't have wanted this, but surely at least one Chee (eg. Erek) would've realised this possibility? On the other hand, I guess even the trusting Pemalites probably wouldn't have left such powerful technology lying around.
Just something to think about...
They might not have even conceived of violence until spending so much time amongst humans.
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Possibly, but somehow I suspect that watching their friends and creators brutally murdered in front of them would be sufficient motivation for them.
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Possibly, but somehow I suspect that watching their friends and creators brutally murdered in front of them would be sufficient motivation for them.
Yeah, but maybe it was too late by then. I dunno...
Another question: Can the Chee give the appearance of being deadly? Could they project a hologram of one of Visser Three's scarier morphs and send everyone scurrying away in a blind panic? What if doing so would prevent a battle/bloodshed? Would it then be justifiable by Chee programming?
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Possibly, but somehow I suspect that watching their friends and creators brutally murdered in front of them would be sufficient motivation for them.
My theory there is that the Pemalites were still alive, ableit for not much longer. So there was probably an Assamovian protocol in the line of the Chee's programming that said, "If a Pemalite gives you an order, you must follow it." So with their dying breath, the Pemalites tell their Chee, "No, do not kill them even though they've essentially killed us."
Which would actually piss me off a lot more. Because the Pemalites were the only species in the universe who didn't believe in an eye for an eye and they were killed because of that.
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I don't see why they couldn't project a hologram of something scary, as it doesn't actually harm anyone.
Yeah the Pemalites are a sad example of a peaceful and trusting people being punished simply because not everyone is that nice.
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Ultimate evil bring chaos, but ultimate good brings complacency. Extremism is bad, regardless of which end of the spectrum you're on. No matter how peaceful you are, you still need to know how to defend yourself.
Who was it that said speak softly, but carry a big stick? Ghandi? Someone else? I like that saying.
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I think that was Theodore Roosevelt
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Ultimate evil bring chaos, but ultimate good brings complacency. Extremism is bad, regardless of which end of the spectrum you're on. No matter how peaceful you are, you still need to know how to defend yourself.
Who was it that said speak softly, but carry a big stick? Ghandi? Someone else? I like that saying.
True, but if literally everyone was peaceful then we wouldn't have to defend ourselves from others.
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I find your statement that ultimate good brings complacency intriguing, Chad. What would an all-good society really be like? Did Serenity get it right in showing a world where people just stopped doing everything, or would we continue on as we are now, but without violence and hurt? Would we still create art? Would we still have things to talk about? Would we still want to learn? How would we handle knowing about our violent history?
That's a line of Erek's that always stuck out in my mind: that he could never forget (and not only that, but never not think about) the violent acts he had committed because he was a computer, not a person capable of storing away and dulling painful memories.
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Some of the things we'd have would at least partly depend on how competitive we still are.I don't really know what it's like for people to live in a place without any kind of violence. I really doubt world peace is actually possible, as there's always going to be people who just can't stand how something is done, and decides to try to force others to do it their way.
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On a different note--sorry to just stear away from your discussion, Phoenix-- I just can't stop thinking about how different Erek is from the other Chee. It's not even the fact that he's the only known Chee to use violence. Whenever he makes an appearance in the books, I get the impression that he's one of the Animorphs; like he's an actual person. I mean, the other Chee have been on earth just as long, but they don't seem to be capable of mimicking human nature like Erek. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that Erek is the only Chee we hear from consistently. I don't know...Erek just seems...human. And him feeling remorse about killing only makes him all the more human. I know very little about Androids...Can they feel emotions?
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I know what you mean, but like you said that's most likely due to the fact we rarely encounter other Chee. Most of the few we have met seem just as human to me though. They've had more than enough practice at it.
Aside from being made of metal, the Chee are barely any different from any other living being. They are sentient androids, meaning that they can think and feel for themselves, make decisions, be affected by consequences, etc.
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Mr. King is someone we see pretty often--maybe not as often as Erek-- but I don't get the same vibe from him.
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The pemalites programmed them not to directly hurt any individual. Maby they thought there was no need to go for indirect revenge or violence becasue being pemalites and blissfully ignorant they never thought "Maby one day we'll get nuked!"
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One thing I just thought of: The Chee aren't responsible for others' actions. That's why they could tell the Ani's what the Yeerks were up to. Because at that point, it was their decision to take action, not the Chee's.
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He has a point. But I still don't know why chees can't fight. If their fighting in the name of peace isn't that kind of justified. And since the yeerks basic goal is chaos than they should be able to step on those slugs.
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It probably would have been better to just teach erek restraint instead of just putting his programming back. I don't really buy the "I can't forget" line. There should be some way to remove data, otherwise the Chee's memory will run out and they won't be able to input anymore data.
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It probably would have been better to just teach erek restraint instead of just putting his programming back. I don't really buy the "I can't forget" line. There should be some way to remove data, otherwise the Chee's memory will run out and they won't be able to input anymore data.
Super hard-drive?
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It probably would have been better to just teach erek restraint instead of just putting his programming back. I don't really buy the "I can't forget" line. There should be some way to remove data, otherwise the Chee's memory will run out and they won't be able to input anymore data.
Keep in mind that the Chee are all connected to each other (so they share data) and to the ship (which holds who knows how much data), and that the Pemalites created a computer the size of a peanut that could do such massive damage. My mind is blanking on what exactly the Pemalite Crystal did... >.< But anyways, who knows how much data they could hold? And who says they didn't have a way to store it externally? It's safe to assume that the Chee knew at least half of what the Pemalites knew (and that's being way conservative, of course) so it would make sense that they could build devices for external memory storage. And if they've been able to hide out amongst humans for these thousands of years, I don't think they'd really have to worry about these devices being stolen or hacked. I bet the Chee put up a mean firewall, unlike the Pemalites. :P
EDIT: It probably would have been better to just teach erek restraint instead of just putting his programming back. I don't really buy the "I can't forget" line. There should be some way to remove data, otherwise the Chee's memory will run out and they won't be able to input anymore data.
Super hard-drive?
Basically, yeah.
*shrugs* That, or maybe the filters that the Chee have the decide what memory to store and what to discard is something they can't alter. Him killing the small army in #10 might be classified as something to save by his programming.
And then... there's also the fact that he isn't sniveling and whimpering about that in any other book in the series. Maybe he did forget... *shrug*
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I don't know.
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well if he dried in every book he'd basically be the biggest soosy in the whole series so it makes sense to pull himself together. Besides he has a life to live and if he starts crying in the middle of school what will he say. "I'm sorry Mrs. Jones, I just slaughtered about a dozen aliencs last night and its been tough." He'd get a note sent home about laying off the video games.
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And also, what counts as 'harm' and what counts as a living 'being'? I think it is safe to assume that plants aren't included. Do bugs? Do rodents? Domesticated animals? Wild animals? Dictionary.com defines 'being' as "conscious, mortal existence" and also as "a living thing". Thanks to the insanity that is the English language, this isn't too helpful. Does anyone recall any instances of any Chee eating meat or swatting flies? And also, I think that this excerpt may be of interest: <How did you convince the Yeerks that you
are one of them?> Ax asked him.
Erek turned off his hologram and became a
machine once again. And then the front of his head
split open. Inside his steel and ivory head was a
chamber, just a few inches in diameter.
And inside that chamber was a gray slug,
helpless, unable to escape. Tiny wires, no
thicker than hairs, wrapped around it.
<Yeerk!> Ax hissed.
"Yes," Erek said. "The Yeerks
believe I am human. I accepted infestation. But
of course the Yeerk cannot make a Controller of me. I made a
place for him instead. He sees nothing. Knows
nothing. I tapped his memory, not the other way around. And now I can pass
among the Yeerks like one of them."
In later books, why doesn't anyone ever suggest putting dissident or POW Yeerks in the type of chamber Erek was using to imprison and keep alive that Yeerk? For example, in Book 29, Aftran could have been kept alive by putting her in such a chamber (modified so that she isn't a prisoner, of course). Book 28: The Controller-Scientist who helped tha Animorphs escape from the Yeerk meatpacking plant could have been kept alive in that manner. Book 31: Tom's Yeerk could have been kept alive and questioned, while Tom's death is faked and Tom given refuge at the Hork-Bajir valley.