Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Marco on September 14, 2009, 05:24:58 AM
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Crayak and Ellimist. The relationship between them is really interesting. Crayak first appeared in animorphs # 26 the attack. In introducing Crayak, even the Ellimist noted that he was powerful. Now why would good see evil as powerful. If Crayak was more powerful than the Ellimist why was he still fighting him. More importantly, if Crayak was so powerful why was in the form of an eye. That probably signified that though Crayak seemed all powerful he was bound. I mean why should Ellimist come in the form of a full living creature and Crayak come as simply an eye? The truth was that the Ellimist wasn't afraid of Crayak and Crayak was not more powerful than the Ellimist. It was according to the rules of the game. When Ellimist said Crayak was all powerful he meant that he seemed more powerful than the Ellimist. But wasn't. Crayak was a destroyer, an illusionist and a pretender. He told Rachel that only his powers were sincere all others were fake, which rhetorically included the Ellimist. If Crayak was so powerful he should have been able to build things instead of destroy. The Ellimist only seemed powerless because the game favoured Crayak's use of power more than the Ellimist. Crayak could not manipulate time. The howlers were not a species he created. It's possible he might have found them erased their memories and replaced them with others. Crayak was a liar. He hid the truth from the howlers, never made them know when they had lost so that he could use them.In number #41 The other, it was Crayak's voice Jake heard. All he saw was an illusion. Crayak also lied to Rachel in #46 to get her to kill Jake. The Ellimist was worried because Crayak could fill them or make himself seem like an illusion of power. Not making them realize that he actually needed them to become powerful. That's probably why he grew when Visser One(Formally Visser Three) Showed his arrogance toward Crayak. He needed them all, the yeerks, the howlers, the animorphs , to achieve his goal. He wanted war and violence, species fighting species, race fighting race. Survival of the fittest.The Drode had probably fell the illusion of power and David too. He thought he could get to Rachel just as he had to the Drode. David called Rachel a fool because just like Crayak and the Drode he had wanted power. Crayak wasn't all powerful and though he used David he was unsuccessful. If he really where all powerful he would have changed David back. Think about that.
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the crayak and elimmist are both equal in they're being ALMOST all powerful. i thought that was pretty clearly spelled out in the books, especially in elimmist chronicles.
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I agree with most of what you're saying here marco, but there are a couple of points I want to make.
Crayak and Ellimist. The relationship between them is really interesting. Crayak first appeared in animorphs # 26 the attack. In introducing Crayak, even the Ellimist noted that he was powerful. Now why would good see evil as powerful.
When Ellimist says "Powerful" he never says More Powerful. Ellimist is just as powerful as Crayak, and just the other way around.
If Crayak was more powerful than the Ellimist why was he still fighting him. More importantly, if Crayak was so powerful why was in the form of an eye. That probably signified that though Crayak seemed all powerful he was bound.
If you ever had read The Ellimist Chronicles, you'd know what his original form was (before he became like Ellimist). Here's a quote from the book:
"Then [Crayak] showed himself to me. I saw with a shock that he was like me: As much machine as
bio-logical. But his biology was entirely different. He was evolved for the surface, or perhaps
even for a subterranean life. No wings would ever lift those massive, muscled limbs. And no
creature with that single, dominating red eye could ever navigate easily in three dimensions."
I mean why should Ellimist come in the form of a full living creature and Crayak come as simply an eye? The truth was that the Ellimist wasn't afraid of Crayak and Crayak was not more powerful than the Ellimist.
Exactly.
It was according to the rules of the game. When Ellimist said Crayak was all powerful he meant that he seemed more powerful than the Ellimist. But wasn't. Crayak was a destroyer, an illusionist and a pretender. He told Rachel that only his powers were sincere all others were fake, which rhetorically included the Ellimist. If Crayak was so powerful he should have been able to build things instead of destroy. The Ellimist only seemed powerless because the game favoured Crayak's use of power more than the Ellimist. Crayak could not manipulate time.
If Crayak couln't manipulate time, then neither could Ellimist, and we already know that Ellimist can manipulate time AND space (Andalite Chronicles, Time Matrix, Book #7, etc.). Ellimist and Crayak were equal in the end. (it says this as well in the Ellimist Chronicles.) Quote:
"You can try, Crayak. But in the end you are a fool. Do you not see that everything you do I
can undo? You can slaughter and I can reverse time itself to restore life. But I tell you this: If
we carry on our war inside the bowels of space-time itself we will end by collapsing this
universe and killing ourselves as well as every thing in it."
The howlers were not a species he created. It's possible he might have found them erased their memories and replaced them with others.
We have no record of the Crayak's Howlers, at least not extensively, so we don't know the exact backstory of the Howlers. your theory sounds very likely, though, as we know that Crayak does not seem the type to actually create species (he destroys more often). We also do not know if he used them before his arrival to the space-time anomaly.
Crayak was a liar. He hid the truth from the howlers, never made them know when they had lost so that he could use them.In number #41 The other, it was Crayak's voice Jake heard. All he saw was an illusion. Crayak also lied to Rachel in #46 to get her to kill Jake. The Ellimist was worried because Crayak could fill them or make himself seem like an illusion of power. Not making them realize that he actually needed them to become powerful.
Crayak maybe wanted to become more powerful, but he knew that he couldn't. He MAY become more powerful in the sense of 'the more people he controls, the more powerful he becomes', but we already know this.
That's probably why he grew when Visser One(Formally Visser Three) Showed his arrogance toward Crayak. He needed them all, the yeerks, the howlers, the animorphs , to achieve his goal. He wanted war and violence, species fighting species, race fighting race. Survival of the fittest.The Drode had probably fell the illusion of power and David too. He thought he could get to Rachel just as he had to the Drode. David called Rachel a fool because just like Crayak and the Drode he had wanted power. Crayak wasn't all powerful and though he used David he was unsuccessful. If he really where all powerful he would have changed David back. Think about that.
Ok, Maybe Crayak wasn't powerful enough to change David back. We don't know EXACTLY where the morphing technology came from (for all we know, Ellimist could have given the power to the Andalites (be that his small change, if they are playing by the classic Ketran rules). The power for morphing does seem a little too powerful for the Andalites to have created (but they could have, I don't know. I don't think the event of the invention was ever documented into the book.).
But also, Crayak could have seen David as being useless now. I don't know what book you've read up to, but Crayak DID change him back in another book (i forget which one it is, but its the one where Rachel morphs into Wolverine on the front I think), and if I recall correctly he changed him back just for Rachel to kill him (make her a killer). I may be wrong, haven't read the book in a while. The Animorphs had defeated David twice, so obviously he was weaker and not as strong or smart as the Animorphs.
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It's started that the Andalites recently invented the morphing tech in HBC, but that may be false. The Ellemist could have done it, but the andalites wanted everyone to believe they did it, so people like Aldrea just didn't know the truth.
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Ok, Maybe Crayak wasn't powerful enough to change David back. We don't know EXACTLY where the morphing technology came from (for all we know, Ellimist could have given the power to the Andalites (be that his small change, if they are playing by the classic Ketran rules). The power for morphing does seem a little too powerful for the Andalites to have created (but they could have, I don't know. I don't think the event of the invention was ever documented into the book.).
That actually makes a LOT of sense, that the Ellimist invented the morphing technology. I mean, it's been said lots of times that it doesn't really make sense for Andalites to have invented it, as proud as they are of their own bodies.
And, of course, the morphing technology becomes plot-critical later, when the Animorphs are created. The Ellimist could have foreseen this, and given the Andalites morphing technology in order to make the Animorphs a possibility later.
At the very least, he must've helped the invention along. You know, he could have given the Andalites who "invented" morphing technology a bit of divine inspiration. And that sounds very much like something he would do, too.
Finally, the mystery of the morphing technology explained!
The howlers were not a species he created. It's possible he might have found them erased their memories and replaced them with others.
We have no record of the Crayak's Howlers, at least not extensively, so we don't know the exact backstory of the Howlers. your theory sounds very likely, though, as we know that Crayak does not seem the type to actually create species (he destroys more often). We also do not know if he used them before his arrival to the space-time anomaly.
I, too, agree that this sounds more realistic than Crayak creating a species. Except for one detail. How could he have erased their previous memories? It's pretty obvious that he can't just erase their memories, or else what Jake did to the Howlers in book #26 would have posed no problem for Crayak.
Hmm. An alternate theory might be that, rather than creating the Howlers, he influenced another race to create them for him. Maybe he found some violent, war-like race, convinced them to create an army that could help them spread their wars and violence across the galaxy, then when they were done, Crayak destroyed that race, but kept the Howlers and the Howler-factories that they had made (he needed the factories, remember, so that he could make more Howlers, since they each only lived for three years, right?)
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Maybe the crayak could fix David but chose not to keep him under thumb? It seems unlikely that a being that can travel through time space can't shape change/fix nothlitism.
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And, of course, the morphing technology becomes plot-critical later, when the Animorphs are created. The Ellimist could have foreseen this, and given the Andalites morphing technology in order to make the Animorphs a possibility later.
i agree, i've always thought that the ellimist was at least mostly behind the technology, if not completely.
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Quote from Dinosaurnothlit:
I, too, agree that this sounds more realistic than Crayak creating a species. Except for one detail. How could he have erased their previous memories? It's pretty obvious that he can't just erase their memories, or else what Jake did to the Howlers in book #26 would have posed no problem for Crayak.
But he CAN erase memories, provided it takes some work. Remember how when Visser Four went into the past and changed stuff, and the Animorphs were in the alternate reality and didn't even realize it? Their memories were altered! actually that doens't make sense.
A better one would be that he never had the need to erase their memories. Maybe the species of the Howlers were killers already, and that's why the Crayak liked them so much. All the Howlers knew up to that point could be just killing. And when Jake did what he did, he ruined them for Crayak. I dunno, there are so many theories that we all have. lol
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Quote from Dinosaurnothlit:
I, too, agree that this sounds more realistic than Crayak creating a species. Except for one detail. How could he have erased their previous memories? It's pretty obvious that he can't just erase their memories, or else what Jake did to the Howlers in book #26 would have posed no problem for Crayak.
But he CAN erase memories, provided it takes some work. Remember how when Visser Four went into the past and changed stuff, and the Animorphs were in the alternate reality and didn't even realize it? Their memories were altered! actually that doens't make sense.
A better one would be that he never had the need to erase their memories. Maybe the species of the Howlers were killers already, and that's why the Crayak liked them so much. All the Howlers knew up to that point could be just killing. And when Jake did what he did, he ruined them for Crayak. I dunno, there are so many theories that we all have. lol
its not the actual act of wiping memories thats difficult, its justifying it within the rules of the game.
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Well, they're all playing by some sort of rule, or rules. The rules maybe way to complex for us to even think about.
My view was that Crayak was not as powerful as Ellimist, but that he was certainly more violent, and that, like wha the Ellimist said, that if they were do continue battling everything was just be destroyed.
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Now why would good see evil as powerful.
Maybe not even the Elimist dares to underestimate Crayak, I think it would be terrible if he did right?
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*head-desk*
Little off topic, and I know you don't care; but why must we attribute EVERYTHING to the ellimist. Saying that the technology is beyond the andalites is fairly ridiculous; they've been around since the time of the dinosaurs; 65+million years. That seems like a good amount of time to come up with some awesome science fair projects. Andalites are vain, but they tend to give credit where it's due
More on topic in TEC Crayak is described as planetiod, with living speices on his form if I'm not mistaken, why would he not be able to make a species the same way as the Ellimist did. More over; Crayak first comes against the Ellimist as a more malecious version of father, strong enough to be challenged by the Ellimist, but not beaten, to begin with. Eventually the back and forth begins until they become "god like"
Because there is no proof as to otherwise, Crayak and the Ellimist have the same abilities, but how they use them, and makes a difference.
If either is more "powerful" it stems for analyzing a situation and manipulating it better than their opponent. (i.e. the Ellimist and the Animorphs. A move I hate, but I'll give credit where credit is due. This once.)
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it was also mentioned by ax that the andalites develop technology pretty damn slowly, and that there are very few species on the andalite homeworld. the andalites being so proud of their bodies, and every andalite weve seen other than ax and visser 3 rarely morphing shows morphing isnt very useful to them. sure, maybe civilian children use it to have fun flying around, but it doesnt seem to have enough practical application for the andalites to have bothered. due to the slowness of their technological development, it also makes it unlikely they developed it after spaceflight and noticing other species, few of which are physcially impressive. not saying the elimmist did it, just saying it doesnt make much sense for them to have. maybe they got it from another species?
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maybe its left over technology from a previous war?
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i think that you are all forgetting, that in one book, (i think it's TEC) the Ellimist goes down to the Andalite planet and makes himself a body like theirs, but with thought speek.
now, i'm not too sure where the morphing technology came in, but i have a slight feeling that he would have had to have a hand in it somehow.
just my :2cents:
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yeah.
the morph tech might also be used more for science than war.
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The ellimist was an Andalite on the homeworld in TEC millions of years ago.
(It was after this he became powerful and stopped Crayak from blowing up a world of living Dinosaurs, ie Earth.)
In HBC Aldrea states that her friends mother was a part in the development of it, which is how she got it, fairly recently, (approx. 1950-1960) She may have been among the first to have it. The Ellimist him self when to planet andalite and said "I'm not gonna interefere" He used a gun like 3 times, and gave them no technology.
Who's to say that in the millions of years hence, with the develop of z-space technology, and obviously strength in physics and biology that this is so impossible for them to come up with, why must so create that they've called a myth for centeries come in to make all there tools
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In reference to the ellimist and his interaction with the andalites, i think he, at the time, unwittingly mentally advanced them farther than they normally would have naturally. He spoke to them in thought speak back in days that they used hand signs, and when he did they calmed down. Not only that, he used a gun, possibly much like the andalite shredder. now this is a stretch as the andalites took about 65 million years, but it's true that tales of the ellimist were always handed down amongst generations. Did it occur to anyone he unwittingly gave them another possibility for communication?? That in seeing him communicate they had something better to strive for (isn't that how all civilizations advance, at least in human cultures?). Also, taking into account that in TEC he essentially "created" an Andalite Ellimist, using the andalite form, but not necessarily dna?? And the andalite ellimist procreated, we know he lost his child, but none ever said that he had no other children after. even his wife had said they make more babies and maybe they won't die by the virus. Taking this into account, the andalite Ellimist essentially severely contaminated the andalite gene pool, and, while it was extremely slow progress, it was progress nonetheless.
As for who is mor powerful, for every advancement that Ellimist acquired so did Crayak, and vice versa, that's why Ellimist ran and ended up on the Andalite planet to begin with. eventually Ellimist became purely ehtereal, and started undoing things that crayak did in te moments he did them. and eventually crayak found a way to advance himself to ethereal, and here's where we find them. outside of space-time, able to see everything, and able to change everything from that point forward, but it occured to me that maybe they can't change anything that had already happened. If it were possible, then Ellimist would have stopped Crayak at his source
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they can change things that already happened, they can even make a relatively small tool to allow it (the time matrix). the crayak and elimmist are like you said etherial, they exist outside space time and thus no longer have a "source" that can be prevented.
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but their source is not ethereal. ... so maybe it takes someone who is also not ethereal to do it. dunno.
also, do you think the person who chased away the Crayak is stronger than the ellimist?
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yeah.
the morph tech might also be used more for science than war.
I think so too, at least at the beginning
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but their source is not ethereal. ... so maybe it takes someone who is also not ethereal to do it. dunno.
it doesnt matter. the fact that they ever existed and have complete dominion over spacetime means that if they are ever destroyed, a past self can simply bring them back. theres also multiple timelines to consider, which they also have control over, thus if they ever existed in one timeline, they exist in all. overall though, im pretty sure this is the exact reason for the rules they set up, because constantly destroying and regenerating each other would rip apart the fabric of the universe, which neither of them wanted.