Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: wotw2112 on June 28, 2009, 10:19:08 PM
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I remember having like the Ellimist Chronicles the first time I read it (ages ago). I think that was because I didn't understand it. I read it again today on a whim and wow...it is so out there. I mean, some of it is interesting and other ideas are philosophical quandries I've pondered but on the whole...just wow. In my opinion it went so far off base as to be ridiculous.
So, two thoughts for conversation:
1. Did the ending seem to be a bit dark? Rachel dies and "A small strand of space-time went dark and coiled into nothingness." I mean wow. That seems depressing and somewhat fatalistic.
2. Was the death of Rachel just an excuse to write the Ellimist Chronicles? It seems like her death was a way to legitimize the telling of the tale.
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It is a bit sad. Not only does a character die, but the Ellemist is pretty much stuck playing with people's lives because the alternative is total galactic destruction. Just what Crayak wants.
Though when I first read it, I made myself believe that the character dying was just dying of old age or something. That KA wasn't really going to kill off a character. Obviously, I was wrong.
The EC is a bit wierd. There were some good things, and it answered some questions, but there was no mention of the Time Matrix. Nor did it go much into Crayak's history.
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I always hoped for a Crayak Chronicles. Oh well.
I really like the Ellimist Chronicles. It was extremely different and technically had nothing to do with the Animorphs, and was refreshing to read.
I didn't read the Ellimist Chronicles until after I read the linear series, so I already knew it was Rachel who died. Sigh.
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(First Post, hi boards.)
I enjoyed all of the chronicles books. Personally, I enjoyed the Ellimist Chronicles as a breath of fresh air. To me, it was a way of writing something completely different for K.A., and still tying it into the Animorphs universe. I mean, how else do you explain an almost omnipotent being without getting religious, and keeping it in an almost sci-fi setting? That's a tall order if you ask me.
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First of all, hello and welcome to the forum wag, why don't you introduce yourself here: http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php/board,7.0.html
I completely agree with you though. It was a good, self contained story that was thoroughly entertaining and still relevant, which is why I liked all of the Chronicles books. I also liked how it brought a nearly all-powerful being back to beginnings and into a form that could be related to. A common under-achieving gamer? It doesn't get more common and understandable than that.
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I liked all of the Chronicles, but this was the one where she really let loose with the sci-fi. I think I've read it three times and I still can't exactly picture what a Ket is supposed to look like, or how their society really works.
That said, yeah, the ending is sort of sad, but wasn't there a whole "But perhaps I am just a puppet in some even higher being's game, and who knows what happens next?" part to it too? So yeah, Rachel left *our* space time continuum, but that doesn't mean it's hopeless.
I guess.
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The chronicles were some of my favorites as well. I loved the whole idea of Ellimist as an ascended fanboy. And as dark as it was, the ending was amazing in my opinion. So cool to see Rachel from his perspective, merely a single line in a void.
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I mean, how else do you explain an almost omnipotent being without getting religious, and keeping it in an almost sci-fi setting?
One might argue there were some religious undertones in it... But I'm not gonna get into that.
I loved the whole idea of Ellimist as an ascended fanboy.
Yeah, that was kinda a cool idea and a fairly solid plot device.
So cool to see Rachel from his perspective, merely a single line in a void.
Depressing!
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It's not really that out-there.
I loved the explanation of the regular sentient life-form into n-dimensional-space-plane uber being. That was pretty rad, how it spanned so many millennia, showing how Toomin went from dorky videogamer into basically...God.
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It's not really that out-there.
can you draw a ket for me
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dorky videogamer into basically...God.
I found it curious that an anti-elimist just "appeared". Such an unusual confluence of events went into making the Ellimist what he eventually became...how exactly would that happen twice? What are the odds the other instance would be an exact antithesis? In such a massive universe how did they run into each other? It seems to imply a general belief in fate and balance. I would really have liked to hear more about Crayak (as someone mentioned above).
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Well, if an organism like "Father" exists, it's really not that much of a stretch to suggest other such occurrences could happen. Or for an N-dimensional being to evolve in other ways.
If Ellimist came into being as he did, there's nothing to say there can't be other similar beings out there, like Crayak and the big badass who banished him.
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I actually really enjoyed it. It was one of my favorites
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i havent read the book in a while (this thread has made me wanna re read it!) so when i've finished the books i'm reading atm, i'll reread the EC and get back to ya
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i havent read the book in a while (this thread has made me wanna re read it!) so when i've finished the books i'm reading atm, i'll reread the EC and get back to ya
Haha, always happy to promote rereads.
Well, if an organism like "Father" exists, it's really not that much of a stretch to suggest other such occurrences could happen. Or for an N-dimensional being to evolve in other ways.
If Ellimist came into being as he did, there's nothing to say there can't be other similar beings out there, like Crayak and the big badass who banished him.
I guess (it is a big universe after all) but I'd like to know a little more about it. It just seems awfully coincidental.
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Crayak's acension was barely gone over. It was like "I don't see how it could happen twice, but it did. So now Crayak is the same as me."
Why the Ellemist didn't just destroy Crayak right then and there, instead of just saving Earth, I don't know. It's morally acceptable for the Hero to kill someone if they are a Complete Monster.
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I think Ellimist didn't kill Crayak for the same reason Crayak didn't kill Ellimist. Deep down, he knew he needed him. He was bored with his ascended life, and needed someone, anyone, to talk to and challenge him.
I loved the Ellimist Chronicles, personally. It's one of the books that I've re-read over and over. The Ketran society is fascinating, and I could really identify with Ellimist as a gamer.
Yeah, I would have preferred to hear more about Crayak and the Time Matrix, but what we DID get was awesome enough that that's forgivable.
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Crayak didn't kill Ellemist because when he tried, he couldn't. At first he didn't see him as a threat. The second time, he tried to kill Ellemist in a sneak assault, but Ellemist was too strong. Neither of them need each other. Either one could just do what Ellemist did on the Andalite world. Just live with the locals for a while, and move on.
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Crayak's acension was barely gone over. It was like "I don't see how it could happen twice, but it did. So now Crayak is the same as me."
Hahaha! Well said.
Why the Ellemist didn't just destroy Crayak right then and there, instead of just saving Earth, I don't know. It's morally acceptable for the Hero to kill someone if they are a Complete Monster.
Good question. But Batman wouldn't agree with the second part. He never killed anyone no matter how evil (or so the Dark Knight version of Batman claims).
I think Ellimist didn't kill Crayak for the same reason Crayak didn't kill Ellimist. Deep down, he knew he needed him. He was bored with his ascended life, and needed someone, anyone, to talk to and challenge him.
Maybe, but there goes any claim to moral highground.
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Batman's morals are stupid. Seriously, what's the Joker's bodycount nowadays? I think I read somewhere it was close to a thousand, or even exceeding that. Batman not killing is selfish BS, it's not based on morality. He's just scared he's going to go some dark place he doesn't want to.
Really, Gotham's clown wouldn't get 30 seconds into a conversation with The Punisher, let alone be let hanging around for a decade or two in continuity slaying dozens of people in one citing for fun. Freakin' Frank would pull his head off. Locking someone like Joker up is ridiculous, he's smarter than the people incarcerating him and is always going to find a way to break out sooner or later. Bruce is a misguided dummy.
[/necessary rant]
Chad, what's your logic there, man? Why is it difficult to believe that Toomin's the only living organism to have ascended into the space-time net? The book wasn't telling Crayak's story, that's why we never delve into his origin. But there's absolutely nothing to say Crayak couldn't have had a similar background, a mortal who finds himself in unusual circumstances (not necessarily a giant fungal organism capturing him, it could be anything) and transcends that boundary into Godliness.
I mean, of course on a practical level he was put in the books to flesh out the Ellimist. But there's no reason to say it's stupid for him to exist. I mean, Ellimist exists, right? There aren't many occurrences in history or science that are absolutely unique and never to be repeated.
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Ascension into the kind of thing the Ellemist became after defeating father is one thing. But becoming a possibly invulnerable being capable of amnipulating time just because you went through a black hole, real space, and Z-Space all at once? And that happening on two occassions? If that's how Crayak did it. It's just not within my willingess to suspend my disbelief.
And I know it was more about the Ellemist than anything else, but I would have enjoyed background on Crayak too.
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Okay. But if the Ellimist did all of that, there's no reason to say Crayak and The Big Bad, and I guess even The One on a perhaps less-powerful scale, didn't experience similar development processes.
They're all more or less immortal (maybe The One excluded), not all-powerful but close enough to it from a biological organism's perspective, and they all operate outside of our 4-dimensional understanding.
Why does it have to happen the exact same way it did for Toomin? If they were all more significant characters in terms of the influence on the main story of the 5 kids, I'm sure we'd probably find out their origins.
As it is, though, we just have to assume that Toomin isn't some unique anomaly throughout this vast crazy universe, and accept that if a writer's going to pull some crazy crap with black holes and the fabric of space itself, that the universe is probably vast enough that it's happened someplace else before, with different details.
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I guess so.
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I agree that it's not impractical.
Even today people think that we're alone in the universe. The universe is a big place. If life can come about in different circumstances, I'm sure ascension into a higher dimension is certainly possible in different circumstances, it just likely occurs less often.
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We're pretty obviously not alone in the universe, but we'll never come into contact with anything sentient. At least not until we're advanced enough and stupid enough to go looking.
Nothing that has technology advanced enough to travel lightyears is going to be dumb enough to make contact with us.
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AlothAssassin... You forget. We have cinnamon buns.
On a more serious note, I'd say that anything intelligent enough to travel light years would have a naturally strong sense of curiosity, which even we mere humans can claim to have. Curiosity is enough to make smart people go exploring, even if it's in stupid places.
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Any being who can make it here from so far away has enough intelligence to know that we're unpredictable dangerous panicky looneys who would try to blow them right out of the sky, or capture them and poke them with sharp stuff in crude medical experiments.
If they're gonna come here, we're not going to know about it.
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If they're gonna come here, we're not going to know about it.
I agree. But they would likely observe us out of curiosity, and likely perform experiments on humans, who would probably be wiped to not remember a thing.
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So the Skrit Na, essentially.
Speaking of the Skrit Na, anyone else notice them being mentioned in the first part of the Ellimist Chronicles? Those guys have been around for a WHILE.
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Yeah. Slow evolvers, I guess.
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We're pretty obviously not alone in the universe, but we'll never come into contact with anything sentient. At least not until we're advanced enough and stupid enough to go looking.
Nothing that has technology advanced enough to travel lightyears is going to be dumb enough to make contact with us.
Why would it be stupid to want to make contact with other planets?
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Maybe they will enslave us
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Or maybe they will give us some of their technology, and then we'll turn on them, and they'll swear off giving technology to anyone else ever again. And the only way to beat us is if they break that very law. Hey, I think I've heard of that kind of plotline somewhere before.
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or maybe they're all part of a galactic federation that agreed not to communicate with races that hadn't achieved warp flight yet.
THERE'S ALL SORTS OF POSSIBILITIES
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Why would it be stupid to want to make contact with other planets?
I didn't say that. Not from our perspective.
Rather, other higher forms of intelligence would know not to make contact with us. The very first thing we'd do to an unknown entity is brand it as hostile and either capture it, try to put it in controlled conditions to further our own knowledge, or simply kill it.
Didn't you see Men In Black? :o :P
People aren't ready for aliens. Seriously, little grey guy with a big fat head and skinny body walks down a ramp of a flying saucer, all "Hai! 'Tsup gais?" he gets a big messy hole blown in him and then carted back to an underground laboratory.
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I didn't say that. Not from our perspective.
Rather, other higher forms of intelligence would know not to make contact with us. The very first thing we'd do to an unknown entity is brand it as hostile and either capture it, try to put it in controlled conditions to further our own knowledge, or simply kill it.
Didn't you see Men In Black? :o :P
People aren't ready for aliens. Seriously, little grey guy with a big fat head and skinny body walks down a ramp of a flying saucer, all "Hai! 'Tsup gais?" he gets a big messy hole blown in him and then carted back to an underground laboratory.
I think that's rather cynical
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Cynical's pretty much a synonym for practical. So I guess you're right.
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Cynical's pretty much a synonym for practical.
I am going to use this quote in the future, thanks.
Still, I agree. If I was a super-advanced alien, I'd want to observe humans, but I wouldn't introduce myself until the right circumstances arise. As a people, we're a little bit hostile, you have to admit.
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Cynical's pretty much a synonym for practical. So I guess you're right.
that is what a cynic would say
Don't get me wrong, I believe in a healthy amount of skepticism and preparation, but I think we're lonely and imaginative enough to give aliens a chance. We've already sent out the Arecibo message (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message), we've got a lot of real scientists working for SETI, and though it's low on our list of economic priorities since there's a lot of home-grown problems need solving, we do spend money on it. I think there are enough people like us in the world, who are hopefully open-minded and diplomatic enough to respond positively to some extra-terrestrial visitors. Do you really think we'd spend so much time hypothesizing about it in fiction if we weren't actively preparing, or at least wondering what it would be like?
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People can dream to fulfil that need of escapism, of something more, of meaning. That's fine.
But the reality would be an entirely different scenario. I don't believe there are alien craft/dead ET's at Area 51 (the evidence is insubstantial), but absolutely, if they've made contact so far, that's what would happen. Captured, contained, killed if necessary, and locked int black-ops files until we have a significant understanding and control over them.
I love that quote in the Animorphs books about Ax talking about humans have "fought thousands of wars, my race a mere handful" or something like that.
When you think about it, humans are basically supreme killers. We may not have the technology of anyone who could make it here from another world, but we're damn sure likely to rival or surpass them in terms of conflict experience. That whole "know your enemy" philosophy that EVERY government in the world abides by currently would dictate that any extra-terrestrial envoy would need to be immediately contained.
If at all possible to shoot one down, we would. Humanity as a whole, not idealistic dreamers. I'd be curious for answers, sure, but the powers that be would too. They'd want answers without risk, answers in a carefully controlled environment without repercussion.
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If at all possible to shoot one down, we would. Humanity as a whole, not idealistic dreamers. I'd be curious for answers, sure, but the powers that be would too. They'd want answers without risk, answers in a carefully controlled environment without repercussion.
I disagree.
I think you're far too quick to lump all of humanity into one category. Just like most sci-fi is. You're right, a lot of sci-fi and fiction in general is escapism, catharsis, a lot of nasty psychological needs that go unfulfilled otherwise. But do you really not think there is not a substantial enough portion of humanity that would be disgusted by the idea of their governments destroying any alien visitors?
At worst, I can envision a Cold War-type scenario, where they are loath to give us motive and information, we are loath to trust them, and they kind of just sit in orbit until some diplomatic solution can be reached or all-out war is attained. But I think any race who is as vibrantly different as our own, has had to cope with differing opinions throughout history, and has survived despite those disagreements and arguments that may or may not have evolved into all-our war, would have the patience and diplomatic ability to communicate with us.
Also, where are you getting this "combat experience" thing? If aliens are real, I have a feeling they'd be very unlike anything we could imagine or expect, so other than the Cold War scenario, the worst thing would be that we simply can't communicate with them at all.
But I guess my point is, you forget that the powers-at-be are elected, in most of the first world countries, by the people they lead, and I generally believe people long to understand, belong, and learn. Yeah, we'd be scared ****less at first, but I think humanity has proven, time and time again, that it can overcome fear in search of something greater.
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You think that black-ops military factions worry about what the electorate thinks, when the scenario is a complete unknown? Of course not. If there were a confirmed, visible UFO showing up on military sensors, they'd attempt to take it down.
It only becomes a public issue if the public becomes aware of it.
As for humanity overcoming fear, we only ever overcome fear once we have a workable understanding of something. When it's no longer an unknown.
I guess what I'm saying is, we adapt. We adapt quickly. But our first instinct is always to shoot first ask questions later. Always, it's been proven time and time again. Whether it's an experimental Russian jet or clever hoax of some kind or a UFO over military-jurisdiction airspace, it would be blasted.
Whether it was successful or not I guess would depend on whatever the hell the aliens are, our stuff may not even do anything against it. But we'd sure as hell try.
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I guess what I'm saying is, we adapt. We adapt quickly. But our first instinct is always to shoot first ask questions later. Always, it's been proven time and time again. Whether it's an experimental Russian jet or clever hoax of some kind or a or a UFO over military-jurisdiction airspace, it would be blasted.
I really don't think that's the case. More people went outside to view Sputnik in wonder than to run away and hide. The urge to fight and flee are always there, don't get me wrong, and a great number of people would succumb to them, but I don't believe humans indiscriminately destroy what cannot be understood. I think you're really overgeneralizing. And as far as some black ops military unit--we're living in a 24-hour news cycle where any putz with a camera phone can record video. Do you really expect me to believe that the government, our government, that still has not uncovered a terrorist vein hiding under rocks with machetes, could execute a conspiracy to effectively conceal and destroy an alien invasion?
We're smarter, with more investigative tools at our disposal than ever before. And we are still a vastly curious, interrogative race. The government may order a cover-up, but I can't believe that it would work, if for the fact that there would be at least one curious sci-fi nerd in the Pentagon or wherever that couldn't stand for a secret like that covered up.
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Uhm. The government can, and does, cover things up pretty damn completely. I don't believe they actually do have alien craft at Area 51, but could they without anyone finding out?
Of-freaking-course they could.
As for an all-out invasion, no, something like that obviously couldn't be kept a secret. But if it came to all-out invasion, the point's moot anyway, as everything would be martial law by then anyway and the fact that the government is fighting it wouldn't have to be concealed.
But a crashed ship? Could a crashed ship or dead alien body be obtained without any public knowledge? Erm, a big yes.
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I still think you're looking at this too narrow-mindedly. If an alien race really wanted to stop by and say hello, do you really think they'd send ONE transport with ONE diplomat that couldn't outlast our firepower?
idk I think I'm having trouble explaining myself. Of course the government covers things up. But I think even those intentions are good. I don't believe human inherently destroy new things. I think our curiosity and compassion far outweigh our fear, and maybe even self-preservation. At least on a snap instinct like that.
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Okay, so basically any aliens that came here would have to be completely confident they could crush us all without any trouble if we tried to put up a fight.
As for curiosity outweighing self-preservation...wow. I guess I'm just intrigued you can say something like that. Nothing on this planet outweighs self-preservation. Nothing. Not individually, not politically. Never.
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Nothing on this planet outweighs self-preservation. Nothing. Not individually, not politically. Never.
Wrong! Definitive statements are always so dangerous cause I only need one exception: parent's sacrificing their lives for their children, man sacrificing his life for his nation or the soldier beside him, etc. etc. etc.
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Okay, so basically any aliens that came here would have to be completely confident they could crush us all without any trouble if we tried to put up a fight.
As for curiosity outweighing self-preservation...wow. I guess I'm just intrigued you can say something like that. Nothing on this planet outweighs self-preservation. Nothing. Not individually, not politically. Never.
do you realize how crazy you sound
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Argh. Okay, look, I'm counting loved ones here in this 'self-preservation' point. Yes, parents save children before themselves, people occasionally risk themselves for a random person who's in a dangerous situation. Yes.
But as a species? Even as countries, nations? Hell no.
Things we don't UNDERSTAND, we fear. We try to gain knowledge of, try to control. Subjugate, even. If we're talking about big-league important once-in-a-lifetime stuff like aliens coming to earth? Humans are going to be skittish about that, unsure, fearful. With the authorities taking a more "let's learn about this thing" approach. It's just so very obvious that if a flying saucer crashed somewhere out in the desert that the military would make attempts to contain it. That's not science-fiction, that's policy.
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As for curiosity outweighing self-preservation...wow. I guess I'm just intrigued you can say something like that. Nothing on this planet outweighs self-preservation. Nothing. Not individually, not politically. Never.
Well, the "curiosity killed the cat" quote had to come from SOMEWHERE. And I'm quite certain that it wasn't from an actual cat. People are curious. We sometimes make stupid mistakes out of curiosity when all evidence, even our self-preservation instincts, tells us that we really, really shouldn't.
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Okay, yes, I agree with that. What I'm saying is, shooting the damn thing down in order to learn about it may be that mistake.
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I know a lot of military people here. On the whole...yeah, they'd shoot it down and ask questions later. There are very few who would think...hmm...that might be construed as an act of war on a more advanced society...
Of course it's unlikely that we'd be able to shoot anything down.
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Exactly. But saying the military, U.S. or otherwise, wouldn't make an attempt to secure an unknown entity by crippling it and taking it to one of its installations is pretty naive. Unknown aircraft over sovereign airspace are always intercepted and investigated.