Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: MoonStarRaven on June 28, 2009, 07:10:29 PM
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Ok I'm new here so my apologies if this topic has come up a few thousand times already. I'm currently rereading the series and it struck me as odd that all other morphs are capable of thought speech except humans... ???
Why? I can understand why the four can't do thought speak because they are human. But what about Ax's human morph? Its a morph, so why can't Ax as a human do thought speak? But then in #9 Cassie mentions its weird after only hearing Visser 3 as andalite speak in thought speak to hear Visser 3 as human speak out loud and then a few seconds later he gave orders in thought speak?? to quick to have demorphed so why can he seemingly speak thought speak in human morph when neither Ax nor Tobias for that matter can use it well in human morph? I suppose that could be written off as a mistake,
But then what is so different about humans that we can't even as a morph use thought speak? it can't just be we're sentient or that we evolved as a speaking race as I'm fairly sure I remember them being able to thought speak well in Hork-Bajir morph and I think a few other alien morphs as well?. So why is every other morph in the series capable of thought speak except human morphs? It doesn't make sense to me. :-\
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I believe Ax chooses to speak normally just because he enjoys it. He can use thought speak in Human morph, but prefers spoken speech. He uses it in book 33, I'm certain, so he's capable of doing it. Not really any reason why not, since Human is just another morph.
The others can't because the reason I believe they can in morph is because their Human minds are transmitting from Z-Space. It explains the thought speak, and why morphs are sometimes difficult to control.
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I'm fairly certain it was mentioned somewhere that Andalites being able to thought-speak naturally was a gift in evolution millions of years ago. Humans, Hork-Bajir, or any other species never had this gift, and as such wouldn't be able to thought speak naturally.
Andalites probably scientifically figured out how to transmit thought speak, as seen with transmitters - Ax has been shown more than once to use those Z-space transponders to communicate. So, in effort to maintain communication while in alternate forms, they probably included the ability of thought-speak, their natural mode of expression. That's likely why Andalites in human morph could/should be able to thought speak while in human morph, but normal humans cannot.
I believe Ax has indeed used thought speak to communicate while in human morph. Jake would tell something to Ax, who would then thought speak to Tobias while flying. And like Chad said, Ax finds human 'mouth sounds' to be funny and enjoyable.
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Really? hum, I was positive I recently read something to the effect of Tobias said something but Ax couldn't answer because he was in human morph... It was in #8 or 9 I think I'll see if I can find it again, I could be wrong.
Got it on page 27 of book #8
Quote: "And since I was in a human body, I too was restricted to spoken language."
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According to K.A., September 1998 (http://hirac-delest.issamshahid.com/database/articles/according/1998/accord_sept98.htm)
10) Why can't Ax use thought-speak in Human morph? Shouldn't it just be another morph to him?
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10) He could. He just enjoys making "mouth sounds."
That part from book #8 is probably a screw-up. Or, perhaps, Ax is just figuring out the nuances of morphing and maybe just assumed that it had to be either mouth-speech or thought-speech. He's an inexperienced cadet.
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it's a KASU
I underlined it and drew all sorts of nasty "THAT MAKES NO SENSE" notes all over it.
"And since I was in a human body, I too was restricted to spoken language" 27, Book 8
Then in Book 33 he relays all of what's happening at Tom's coronation or w/e the hell that was to Tobias, THROUGH THOUGHT SPEECH IN HUMAN MORPH.
Thought speech is one of the most inconsistent things in the series. The spatial limits applied to it change according to the requirements of the situation. In one book, they're all flying up to a mile apart and joking about fried eagle drumsticks or whatever, and then in The Underground Rachel can't even get Ax's or Tobias' attention 25 feet below the surface of the ground. And you could provide all sorts of fanwanky explanations, like "MAYBE IT DEPENDS ON THE SIZE OF THE MORPH" or "MAYBE ALL THE DIRT ACTED AS A FILTER" or "MAYBE AX JUST DIDN'T KNOW HE COULD THOUGHT SPEAK" but you know what? When it comes down to it, it's just inconsistent.
And whatever, tbh. It would have been nice for there to have been some rules at the beginning. At the very least, any morph--even if they morph from their human forms into another human body--should have the ability to TS. The technology should not discriminate between cranial functions or motor abilities or verbal capacity or anything. If they can TS as dolphins and, like you said, Hork-Bajir, they should be able to TS as humans. I feel like if you really push it, though, using the Escafil Device should have downloaded the "Thought Speak Version 1.0" program into their brain in the first place. I mean, it would have been a weird design decision to add that, since every Andalite could already TS and they were the only ones the technology was intended for, but unless there was something in the programming that allowed it, they shouldn't have been able to communicate in morph at all. In that case, EVERYONE should have been able to TS in their natural, human, hawk, or Andalite forms, once they've touched the legendary cube. But of course, this would have mollified a lot of really great, tense moments throughout the series, soooo I mean in the end, it's the decision you have to make with every KASU: was the inconsistency worth the story telling capital it gained?
I think, in this case, yes, but I will admit that on this reread of the series, it's the thing I'm having the biggest problem with.
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Thought Speak Version 1.0! Ha!
Maybe they just got some faulty software and the connection faded in and out at random...lol
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You're right that it's inconsistant. But the theory I posted about consciousness being in Z-Space does explain why the Humans can only do it in morph. Too bad it's just a theory, and wasn't stated in the books.
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When a human talks, they don't concentrate on actually physically moving their vocal cords in the appropriate rhythms, they just think of the idea they want to communicate, and well, say it.
My best guess is that when an Andalite wants to say something, they thought speak in the the same way we talk - thinking of an idea, and just expressing it. I doubt they first concentrate on the mechanism they use to communicate.
So, probably when Ax is morphed human, when he thinks of the idea he wants to communicate, the natural thing for humans to do, speaking, probably overrides the ability to thought speak. It would be physically possible to thought speak while in human morph, but it would likely need concentration on the actual action, as well as the thought itself. This explains why Visser Three, and Ax later in the series, can do it.
That, or it was just a KASU like Jake using thought speak while human in the first book.
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Andalites are capable of TS in their natural form, but maybe they needed to program the device to give them TS capability in morph. In that case, the device would also give the humans TS capability in morph but not in their natural state.
But yes, if so, then the humans should have been able to TS in human morph. Maybe the humans were just too used to mouth speech to even consider using TS in human morph.
Perhaps the device doesn't "kick in" the TS ability if the user morphs into his/her own species. The technology was meant for Andalites, after all, maybe they figured that an Andalite morphing another Andalite (there's a possibility) didn't need the device-given TS since Andalites can TS naturally.
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Thought Speak Version 1.0! Ha!
Maybe they just got some faulty software and the connection faded in and out at random...lol
You know... That's probably the most likely explanation we'll ever come up with.
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tbh, I thought Ax being obsessed with his mouth was both genius and not pushed far enough.
I kind of think of Ax like a toddler, you know? He's stuck in his *oral phase,* for all of you Freudian fans out there. He shoves everything he can find into his mouth, he makes a bunch of sounds because he just found out how awesome it can be, give the poor kid a pacifier and teething ring and call it a day. I thought it was a very astute (and hilarious) choice for Ax to play with his mouth the way a baby does.
HOWEVER,
When a human talks, they don't concentrate on actually physically moving their vocal cords in the appropriate rhythms, they just think of the idea they want to communicate, and well, say it.
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So, probably when Ax is morphed human, when he thinks of the idea he wants to communicate, the natural thing for humans to do, speaking, probably overrides the ability to thought speak.
Ax never did what human babies have to do, that is, LEARN TO SPEAK.
He's a rather smart fellow, being an Andalite and all. So of course he'd have a pretty fast learning curve. But I feel like if you really had a mouthless alien turn into a mouthed, verbally-speaking human for the first time, he'd not only be playing with word sounds, but slobbering all over himself and trying to figure out just exactly how the tongue works. I guess my point is, "Cinnabon. Bunzah. Cinnannana BUNZAH" was more accurate than "Actually, the Zero-Space modifier cannot directly extrapolate the polar direction of the longitudinal BLAH BLAH BLAH." He can still communicate intelligent ideas, but he should do it through the mouth of someone who's never had one before.
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You're right that it's inconsistant. But the theory I posted about consciousness being in Z-Space does explain why the Humans can only do it in morph. Too bad it's just a theory, and wasn't stated in the books.
were you the one that posted that theory on tvtropes and compared it to Neon Genesis Evangelion? I really like that theory. I liked it so much I basically used it for a fic I wrote. Don't sue me plz
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No. I've never posted anything on TV tropes. I'm not even sure I came up with the idea on my own. Likely, I just read it here or there and really liked the idea.
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Ax never did what human babies have to do, that is, LEARN TO SPEAK.
When human babies learn to speak, they aren't learning how to properly function their vocal cords - they can do that already: goo goo gah gah. They are just learning the concept of joining ideas with the physical action of speaking. If you were learning a new language, you wouldn't need to go through 'goo goo gah gah' again, but rather learning how that language joins specific thoughts with specific sounds.
Ax is already physically capable of properly functioning his vocal cords from being human, and because of his translator chip, already knows what sounds go with what ideas. In other words, he would be able to speak fluently from the start. It's just a matter of the fact he finds making sounds with the mouth to be incredibly funny, and often plays with his words.
As far as jamming stuff into his mouth... I would say it would be the sudden introduction to a previously encountered sense. It would almost induce a type of euphoria or extreme excitement.
If you were randomly given the ability to walk through solid walls, would you just randomly walk through walls all the time, just because you could? Would someone who could all their lives also do this, or only do so when convenient or needed?
Poor analogy, I know, but it gives you the general idea.
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When human babies learn to speak, they aren't learning how to properly function their vocal cords - they can do that already: goo goo gah gah. They are just learning the concept of joining ideas with the physical action of speaking. If you were learning a new language, you wouldn't need to go through 'goo goo gah gah' again, but rather learning how that language joins specific thoughts with specific sounds.
I'm no expert on natal development, but don't they go through phases of making hard "guh, buh, duh" sounds and then move on to the more subtle "muh, nuh" kinds of sounds? I mean my evidence is pretty anecdotal, but don't most babies say "dada" before "mama"?
And when I learn a new language, I already know how to "talk," that is, use my vocal cords to express some kind of Latin-based language. I've gone through the "goo goo gah gah bah bah bah" stage and figured out where to hit my tongue on my teeth to say "T," the difference between humming against your lips and your tongue to make "m" and "n," respectively. But if I had to learn one of those clicking! African languages, I'd have a lot of trouble, right? I'd have to make sounds I'm not normally accustomed to making. Or even another Latin-based language, like French--does anyone who is not a native French speaker ever reach the level of expertise of a native speaker? Are they hacking and coughing in all the right places, to the right degree? I heard somewhere that it's really hard to perfect a foreign language after your palette sets--your tongue shapes your mouth a certain way based on the language you speak and the dialect you use, so everyone has a little bit of trouble making specific sounds in languages. Like the people who have to say "little cup of tea" a bunch of times really fast so they can learn to roll their r's.
lol I am so off track I'm sorry. This actually brings up another interesting question at least to me--so many of our traits are developmental in nature--our postures, our mannerisms, etc. What would a brand new, frolis maneuver human really look like?
As far as the second point, you're totally right--the whole "learning grammar" thing would be averted, since he's already got a pretty good grasp on syntax. Learning to talk for him would be an entirely physical thing.
Ax is already physically capable of properly functioning his vocal cords from being human, and because of his translator chip, already knows what sounds go with what ideas. In other words, he would be able to speak fluently from the start. It's just a matter of the fact he finds making sounds with the mouth to be incredibly funny, and often plays with his words.
I guess this is where I disagree. Morphing was the entire premise of this series, and I think as far as a concept, it's about 95% perfect. But this kind of falls under the 5% I have a problem with. I don't believe a lot of the stuff they "knew" when they morphed is actually "instinctual." I just griped about this in the livejournal community, so bear with me if you've read that already, but like when Rachel morphs a cat in #2:
"It reminded me of both my mothers, the human one, and the cat who had licked my fur and carried me around in her mouth." 108
Could she really know that? She never experienced being carried around by her cat-mother in its mouth, so why would she remember that? It would be like Ax morphing human and being "oh yeah breast feeding, that was cool" lol idk that's a weird example but you get my point, right? Instinct, to a degree, does influence our actions, but so does knowledge which is why I think in a lot of cases the Animorphs would have made pretty sucky animals.
And I think Applegate realized this, which is why Cassie always did the hard research and why Tobias could fly better than any of them. Like I said, 95% of the time, I think she nailed it on the head. But there are a couple of cases, here and there, where I have to say "No, you went too far, there's no way they could just know that," and I think Ax speaking perfect, professorial English with no learning curve is one of them.
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I agree with what you said, but I'm almost positive the thing with Rachel and the cat is a known KASU, just like in the first book where Jake morphs Homer, but is still neutered even though it shouldn't come with the morph.
Still, I'm not surprised Ax was able to physically speak well. It's cleared that he had full knowledge of how to use the language, but for speaking I'd like to say that since it was the first language he physically spoke, pronunciation would come with knowing how the words should sound. Also, since he wasn't used to another language, a foreign dialect would not be an issue. Similar to how a child learning their first language will speak better than a different language speaking adult, or how a younger person can more easily learn foreign languages.
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eh, to each his own, I guess. I had the same issue with Tobias and Rachel speaking when they were Hork-Bajir. If your mouth was suddenly long, beak-like, and reptilian, could you really form any sounds with it? Then again, it's one of those "how far can you suspend your disbelief" things, because Taxxons can't speak worth a damn, as well they shouldn't.
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Really? I'm pretty sure they mentioned that they sounded stange speaking. I always assumed they just spelled things right so it would be more convenient to read.
Still, I'm sure they could speak correctly because moving vocal cords is no more difficult than moving fingers, but would probably pronounce everything weird until they became more used to it, similar to how a person who gets a retainer sounds strange for a while, but then gets used to it, abet on a larger scale.
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Ax didn't need to "learn" to speak with a mouth any more than the Animorphs needed to take Remedial Flying 101 when they morphed birds for the first time. If every time someone morphed they had to go through the process of learning how they do what they do (how moles dig, how fly's fly, how ****roaches never die) they would never have gotten anywhere. Ax is playing with sounds for the same reason he eats a million cinnabuns. He likes it. It's new and interesting.
The problem that I had was that Ax really could not control himself at times. I mean, he may only be a cadet, and it may be an alien morph, but he IS a warrior-in-training and having a fit over 'brown globules' could potentially be a security risk, as playing with every other word could be as well.
I think that KA overdid the whole 'Ax as an idiot human' bit at times. It was great for comic relief, but considering his intelligence and the sensitivity of their situation, you wold think that he would be more careful.
Now, as far as thought-speak.....33 is the second book that has someone in human morph using thought speak (not counting #1 which has been noted as a KASU many times). I forget which book it was, but a book prior to 33 had Tobias use thought-speak in human morph. BUT in #23, when Tobias is in the law office as a human he never mentions being able to thought-speak to anyone. In fact he specifically mentions that he can't respond, which is why they make him pick up a candy bar to indicate 'all is well'.
My point, I guess, is that the rules of thought-speak is the most frustrating part of the entire series. It drives me crazy. I hate when things don't follow the rules.
/endrant.
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Ax didn't need to "learn" to speak with a mouth any more than the Animorphs needed to take Remedial Flying 101 when they morphed birds for the first time. If every time someone morphed they had to go through the process of learning how they do what they do (how moles dig, how fly's fly, how ****roaches never die) they would never have gotten anywhere. Ax is playing with sounds for the same reason he eats a million cinnabuns. He likes it. It's new and interesting.
lol aww man I thought you'd be on my side for this.
Like I said, the line is fuzzy. For some reason, I can buy them knowing how to fly as birds, because birds fly. Just like I could buy Ax knowing how to walk, sit, run, eat, whatever as a human. These are all instincts, things necessary for base survival.
But vocalizing so specifically as to create language? That takes some higher reasoning and practice.
Higher reasoning he's got, so emphasis on the practice
You're right overall, though. It was a fine line, and a fuzzy, personal one that's different for everyone. It's kind of an interesting philosophical debate, if you think about it. How much of what we do is really just our instincts screaming at us? I'm hungry, eat. I'm lonely, make a friend. I'm bored, do something fun.
I could buy flying as birds and digging as moles because definitively, that is what those things do. For them not to know how, in any capacity, would seem weird. But do humans definitively talk? I don't know. I believe digging is instinctual to a mole. I think if you put a baby mole in dirt box and gave it food and let it grow and survive without supervision, it would eventually start to dig. But I think if you put a human in a dirt box and gave it food and let it grow and survive without supervision, it wouldn't come out of the box speaking anything besides vague guttural grunts and maybe some nasally whines. Language is too specialized, in my opinion, for Ax to do it perfectly straight away. He'd learn how. But the specific sounds he'd need to create English words would just take some practice and accommodation.
BUT LIKE I SAID. 5%. I HAD A PROBLEM WITH LIKE 5% OF THEIR MORPHS. 95% OF THE REST I WAS FINE WITH.
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Language is too specialized, in my opinion, for Ax to do it perfectly straight away. He'd learn how. But the specific sounds he'd need to create English words would just take some practice and accommodation.
I would agree with that thought (with some reservation). It seems more of a cultural development (though DNA obviously gives us the capacity). Can't recall if they ever really discussed the "other brain" when a sentient being was morphed (like Ax's "mind" when Tobias morphed him, or a hork-bajir "mind" when morphed). I don't remember any specific moment dealing with that but I may be wrong. It's been a while.
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any morph can use thought-speak, whether human or not.
every case where they can not is either a KASU or ax enjoying speech.
i've read ax using thought-speak while in human morph, but can't recall which book(s).
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Thought Speak 101, we need you!
Okay, we all know KA Applegate made a few screw ups, like Jake thought speaking to Tobias near the start WHILE STILL A HUMAN, but as it's been said before (I think) Ax was going on about candy floss (or "cloud candy" as he called it) to Tobias in though speak, while in human morph at the Yeerk - a - Thon in 33. And in the one where they got Trekkies as recruits for the battle, when they met them Tobias was thought speaking privately to Jake WHILE IN HUMAN MORPH.
PS I know all this because I was researching thought speak in human morph for a FanFic I was going to write... not going to now. Peace and love xx
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sorry if that was a little irrelevant to the current topic, I just wanted to set that straight. :P