Humans and thought speak?

[MoonStarRaven]

Ok I'm new here so my apologies if this topic has come up a few thousand times already. I'm currently rereading the series and it struck me as odd that all other morphs are capable of thought speech except humans... ???

Why? I can understand why the four can't do thought speak because they are human. But what about Ax's human morph? Its a morph, so why can't Ax as a human do thought speak? But then in #9 Cassie mentions its weird after only hearing Visser 3 as andalite speak in thought speak to hear Visser 3 as human speak out loud and then a few seconds later he gave orders in thought speak?? to quick to have demorphed so why can he seemingly speak thought speak in human morph when neither Ax nor Tobias for that matter can use it well in human morph? I suppose that could be written off as a mistake,

But then what is so different about humans that we can't even as a morph use thought speak? it can't just be we're sentient or that we evolved as a speaking race as I'm fairly sure I remember them being able to thought speak well in Hork-Bajir morph and I think a few other alien morphs as well?. So why is every other morph in the series capable of thought speak except human morphs? It doesn't make sense to me. 

[Chad32]

I believe Ax chooses to speak normally just because he enjoys it. He can use thought speak in Human morph, but prefers spoken speech. He uses it in book 33, I'm certain, so he's capable of doing it. Not really any reason why not, since Human is just another morph.

The others can't because the reason I believe they can in morph is because their Human minds are transmitting from Z-Space. It explains the thought speak, and why morphs are sometimes difficult to control.

[ThinkAgain]

I'm fairly certain it was mentioned somewhere that Andalites being able to thought-speak naturally was a gift in evolution millions of years ago. Humans, Hork-Bajir, or any other species never had this gift, and as such wouldn't be able to thought speak naturally.

Andalites probably scientifically figured out how to transmit thought speak, as seen with transmitters - Ax has been shown more than once to use those Z-space transponders to communicate. So, in effort to maintain communication while in alternate forms, they probably included the ability of thought-speak, their natural mode of expression. That's likely why Andalites in human morph could/should be able to thought speak while in human morph, but normal humans cannot.

I believe Ax has indeed used thought speak to communicate while in human morph. Jake would tell something to Ax, who would then thought speak to Tobias while flying. And like Chad said, Ax finds human 'mouth sounds' to be funny and enjoyable.

[MoonStarRaven]

Really? hum, I was positive I recently read something to the effect of Tobias said something but Ax couldn't answer because he was in human morph... It was in #8 or 9 I think I'll see if I can find it again, I could be wrong.

Got it on page 27 of book #8
Quote: "And since I was in a human body, I too was restricted to spoken language."

[Adrian Malacoda]

According to K.A., September 1998

10) Why can't Ax use thought-speak in Human morph? Shouldn't it just be another morph to him?
...
10) He could. He just enjoys making "mouth sounds."

That part from book #8 is probably a screw-up. Or, perhaps, Ax is just figuring out the nuances of morphing and maybe just assumed that it had to be either mouth-speech or thought-speech. He's an inexperienced cadet.

[anijen21]

it's a KASU

I underlined it and drew all sorts of nasty "THAT MAKES NO SENSE" notes all over it.

"And since I was in a human body, I too was restricted to spoken language" 27, Book 8

Then in Book 33 he relays all of what's happening at Tom's coronation or w/e the hell that was to Tobias, THROUGH THOUGHT SPEECH IN HUMAN MORPH.

Thought speech is one of the most inconsistent things in the series. The spatial limits applied to it change according to the requirements of the situation. In one book, they're all flying up to a mile apart and joking about fried eagle drumsticks or whatever, and then in The Underground Rachel can't even get Ax's or Tobias' attention 25 feet below the surface of the ground. And you could provide all sorts of fanwanky explanations, like "MAYBE IT DEPENDS ON THE SIZE OF THE MORPH" or "MAYBE ALL THE DIRT ACTED AS A FILTER" or "MAYBE AX JUST DIDN'T KNOW HE COULD THOUGHT SPEAK" but you know what? When it comes down to it, it's just inconsistent.

And whatever, tbh. It would have been nice for there to have been some rules at the beginning. At the very least, any morph--even if they morph from their human forms into another human body--should have the ability to TS. The technology should not discriminate between cranial functions or motor abilities or verbal capacity or anything. If they can TS as dolphins and, like you said, Hork-Bajir, they should be able to TS as humans. I feel like if you really push it, though, using the Escafil Device should have downloaded the "Thought Speak Version 1.0" program into their brain in the first place. I mean, it would have been a weird design decision to add that, since every Andalite could already TS and they were the only ones the technology was intended for, but unless there was something in the programming that allowed it, they shouldn't have been able to communicate in morph at all. In that case, EVERYONE should have been able to TS in their natural, human, hawk, or Andalite forms, once they've touched the legendary cube. But of course, this would have mollified a lot of really great, tense moments throughout the series, soooo I mean in the end, it's the decision you have to make with every KASU: was the inconsistency worth the story telling capital it gained?

I think, in this case, yes, but I will admit that on this reread of the series, it's the thing I'm having the biggest problem with.

[wotw2112]

Thought Speak Version 1.0!  Ha!


Maybe they just got some faulty software and the connection faded in and out at random...lol

[Chad32]

You're right that it's inconsistant. But the theory I posted about consciousness being in Z-Space does explain why the Humans can only do it in morph. Too bad it's just a theory, and wasn't stated in the books.

[ThinkAgain]

When a human talks, they don't concentrate on actually physically moving their vocal cords in the appropriate rhythms, they just think of the idea they want to communicate, and well, say it.

My best guess is that when an Andalite wants to say something, they thought speak in the the same way we talk - thinking of an idea, and just expressing it. I doubt they first concentrate on the mechanism they use to communicate.

So, probably when Ax is morphed human, when he thinks of the idea he wants to communicate, the natural thing for humans to do, speaking, probably overrides the ability to thought speak. It would be physically possible to thought speak while in human morph, but it would likely need concentration on the actual action, as well as the thought itself. This explains why Visser Three, and Ax later in the series, can do it.

That, or it was just a KASU like Jake using thought speak while human in the first book.

[Adrian Malacoda]

Andalites are capable of TS in their natural form, but maybe they needed to program the device to give them TS capability in morph. In that case, the device would also give the humans TS capability in morph but not in their natural state.

But yes, if so, then the humans should have been able to TS in human morph. Maybe the humans were just too used to mouth speech to even consider using TS in human morph.

Perhaps the device doesn't "kick in" the TS ability if the user morphs into his/her own species. The technology was meant for Andalites, after all, maybe they figured that an Andalite morphing another Andalite (there's a possibility) didn't need the device-given TS since Andalites can TS naturally.

[AniDragon]

Thought Speak Version 1.0!  Ha!


Maybe they just got some faulty software and the connection faded in and out at random...lol

You know... That's probably the most likely explanation we'll ever come up with.

[anijen21]

tbh, I thought Ax being obsessed with his mouth was both genius and not pushed far enough.

I kind of think of Ax like a toddler, you know? He's stuck in his *oral phase,* for all of you Freudian fans out there. He shoves everything he can find into his mouth, he makes a bunch of sounds because he just found out how awesome it can be, give the poor kid a pacifier and teething ring and call it a day. I thought it was a very astute (and hilarious) choice for Ax to play with his mouth the way a baby does.

HOWEVER,

When a human talks, they don't concentrate on actually physically moving their vocal cords in the appropriate rhythms, they just think of the idea they want to communicate, and well, say it.
...
So, probably when Ax is morphed human, when he thinks of the idea he wants to communicate, the natural thing for humans to do, speaking, probably overrides the ability to thought speak.

Ax never did what human babies have to do, that is, LEARN TO SPEAK.

He's a rather smart fellow, being an Andalite and all. So of course he'd have a pretty fast learning curve. But I feel like if you really had a mouthless alien turn into a mouthed, verbally-speaking human for the first time, he'd not only be playing with word sounds, but slobbering all over himself and trying to figure out just exactly how the tongue works. I guess my point is, "Cinnabon. Bunzah. Cinnannana BUNZAH" was more accurate than "Actually, the Zero-Space modifier cannot directly extrapolate the polar direction of the longitudinal BLAH BLAH BLAH." He can still communicate intelligent ideas, but he should do it through the mouth of someone who's never had one before.

[anijen21]

You're right that it's inconsistant. But the theory I posted about consciousness being in Z-Space does explain why the Humans can only do it in morph. Too bad it's just a theory, and wasn't stated in the books.

were you the one that posted that theory on tvtropes and compared it to Neon Genesis Evangelion? I really like that theory. I liked it so much I basically used it for a fic I wrote. Don't sue me plz

[Chad32]

No. I've never posted anything on TV tropes. I'm not even sure I came up with the idea on my own. Likely, I just read it here or there and really liked the idea.

[ThinkAgain]

Ax never did what human babies have to do, that is, LEARN TO SPEAK.

When human babies learn to speak, they aren't learning how to properly function their vocal cords - they can do that already: goo goo gah gah. They are just learning the concept of joining ideas with the physical action of speaking. If you were learning a new language, you wouldn't need to go through 'goo goo gah gah' again, but rather learning how that language joins specific thoughts with specific sounds.

Ax is already physically capable of properly functioning his vocal cords from being human, and because of his translator chip, already knows what sounds go with what ideas. In other words, he would be able to speak fluently from the start. It's just a matter of the fact he finds making sounds with the mouth to be incredibly funny, and often plays with his words.

As far as jamming stuff into his mouth... I would say it would be the sudden introduction to a previously encountered sense. It would almost induce a type of euphoria or extreme excitement.

If you were randomly given the ability to walk through solid walls, would you just randomly walk through walls all the time, just because you could? Would someone who could all their lives also do this, or only do so when convenient or needed?

Poor analogy, I know, but it gives you the general idea.