Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: gecko52 on May 10, 2009, 12:54:46 PM
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I wanted a forum dedicated to my favorite character Jake, any comments about him? Feel free to put them in
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Sure, why not?
At first, Jake seems like a regular guy, with no outstanding abilities. Rachel is brave, Cassie has strong morals, Marco is a strategist, and Tobias...I'm not sure.
Leadership is a great burden to bare, and he didn't ask for it. Sometimes it makes me wonder how things would have gone if there wasn't a designated leader. Everyone in the group is connected to him in some way. His best friend, his girlfriend, his cousin, and his admirer. Kind of funny how when the Ellemist practicaly confesses to stacking the deck, this isn't mentioned at all. Like Rachel, he seems to be just a pleasant addition to the important members of the group.
Eventually he gets more and more used to being a leader. At some point he also starts studying up on historical leaders. In the end, he is one of the two most suffering survivors of the war. His cousin and brother are dead, Cassie left him, and he alienates Tobias (or the other way around).
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That reminds me. Does anyone have the quote handy, where Jake states that he'd studied the Civil War, and how the North won, because they were the first to realize that the one to cause the most damage and death will win?
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I don't know. But I'd start with the last book he marrates, and work my way backwards.
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wasn't that in the book where his grandpa died?
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It was 53. ^^
At the beginning of the American Civil War
both sides thought the war was about taking or
holding cities and ports and rivers and mountain
passes. They thought it was a chess game.
By the end of the war they'd figured out that
they weren't playing chess. Cities didn't matter
much. Ports and rivers and mountain passes,
while useful, were secondary to the real game.
The real game was destruction.
Lincoln had figured it out earlier than most
and his generals; Ulysses S. Grant, William Tecumseh
Sherman, and Philip Sheridan made it
happen.
They burned enemy homes and farms. They
burned crops in the field and slaughtered farm
animals and wrapped railroad tracks around
trees. They starved the enemy.
They realized that warfare was no longer
about chivalry and honor, but about killing
the enemy. Find the enemy, kill the enemy.
Kill so many of them that those who are left
alive lose their will to fight on. Do whatever it
takes.
That's the way war has been ever since.
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dag, yo
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And the thing is that's so true.
Wars are no longer fought by warriors out for honor and glory for there nation.
It's about tearing up the enemy, and the civil war really was a turning point in that direction.
Jakes the one that grew on me most by the time the series ended.
To put all this on the group was one thing but Jake had so much on him that only he alone could take on.
I can't pretend I've ever had anything comparable to the stuff he went through, but in those times of reflection when I think about the weights of a normal life; Jake was nothing less than Atlas. He held the weight of the world on his shoulders
And he never even shrugged :P
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Well, in America's defense, we aren't the first nation to fight wars dirty. And we are the only nation in history to help rebuild a country after we defeat it.
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I like Tobias's little speech in book 49:
If he defeated the Yeerks, freed humanity, rescued Earth, that was good. But that was just a bonus. His main goal was much simpler. To save his family. That goal was what had given him strength. That goal was what had kept him sane. Allowed him to retain a center of calm focus amid the awful chaos,"
every time i read that, I cried a little
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I DON'T NEED YOUR CIVIL WAR!
IT FEEDS THE RICH AND IT BURIES THE POOR!
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Jake at the end of the war
I think an interesting part of Jake's storyline is when cassie decides to let the yeerks have the escafil device. He feels that Cassie simply can't be trusted (not to mention the loss of his family) and I think Cassie's moralistic attitude from jake's perspective definatly caused him to release the Yeerks through the cleaning cycle.
Also I note that in the fanfiction Book 56 the author makes a note about why Cassie broke up with him: because whenever she saw him she thought of the war and what he did. By the way I think that Jake actually got of easy with the war crimes tribunal. (I think because of the bias at the trial of Visser Three towards the fact that jake saved the world).
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At the end, I felt that Cassie, Marco and Aximili became adult, but Jake became "old"... They lost their youth, but him lost all his life...
I felt as if he died with Rachel and Tom... Same for Tobias, he died with Rachel.
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At the end, I felt that Cassie, Marco and Aximili became adult, but Jake became "old"... They lost their youth, but him lost all his life...
I felt as if he died with Rachel and Tom... Same for Tobias, he died with Rachel.
I think that Applegate had that idea of the animorphs being "veterans" of the war. In general she views the world with an idealistic point of view and is strongly pacifist.
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I agree about KA's pacifism. The most pacifistic member lived somewhat happily ever after, while the two most warrior-like died. I don't really know where I'd put the series on the sliding scale of idealism and cynicism, but it's likely on the idealistic side.
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Jake's hot :)
At least I've always imagined him to be...
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It was 53. ^^
At the beginning of the American Civil War
both sides thought the war was about taking or
holding cities and ports and rivers and mountain
passes. They thought it was a chess game.
By the end of the war they'd figured out that
they weren't playing chess. Cities didn't matter
much. Ports and rivers and mountain passes,
while useful, were secondary to the real game.
The real game was destruction.
Lincoln had figured it out earlier than most
and his generals; Ulysses S. Grant, William Tecumseh
Sherman, and Philip Sheridan made it
happen.
They burned enemy homes and farms. They
burned crops in the field and slaughtered farm
animals and wrapped railroad tracks around
trees. They starved the enemy.
They realized that warfare was no longer
about chivalry and honor, but about killing
the enemy. Find the enemy, kill the enemy.
Kill so many of them that those who are left
alive lose their will to fight on. Do whatever it
takes.
That's the way war has been ever since.
I never realized what was being said there, but re reading it really highlights how little understanding of history and the nature of war KAA has.
almost makes me rethink my current view that she came too hate anifans and crafted the ending to hurt as many of us as possible.
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It was 53. ^^
At the beginning of the American Civil War
both sides thought the war was about taking or
holding cities and ports and rivers and mountain
passes. They thought it was a chess game.
By the end of the war they'd figured out that
they weren't playing chess. Cities didn't matter
much. Ports and rivers and mountain passes,
while useful, were secondary to the real game.
The real game was destruction.
Lincoln had figured it out earlier than most
and his generals; Ulysses S. Grant, William Tecumseh
Sherman, and Philip Sheridan made it
happen.
They burned enemy homes and farms. They
burned crops in the field and slaughtered farm
animals and wrapped railroad tracks around
trees. They starved the enemy.
They realized that warfare was no longer
about chivalry and honor, but about killing
the enemy. Find the enemy, kill the enemy.
Kill so many of them that those who are left
alive lose their will to fight on. Do whatever it
takes.
That's the way war has been ever since.
I never realized what was being said there, but re reading it really highlights how little understanding of history and the nature of war KAA has.
almost makes me rethink my current view that she came too hate anifans and crafted the ending to hurt as many of us as possible.
Actually, Michael Grant (KA's husband) helped out quite a bit with that book, and he's a really big history buff, especially with the Civil War.
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I don't know, I think she got it right. Let's be honest, in wars, those who destroy the most, usually win.
I still love Animorphs to this day, and would give my spleen for a sequel. I think part of the reason I feel that way was because it was so believable (well, as believable as possible considering it was 6 kids fighting off a global scale invasion).
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Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.
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The Powell Doctrine states that you should use overwhelming force. It intimidates, destroys and forces people to back down. My point being that the use of overwhelming force is still relevant and destruction is still an ends.
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Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.
I don't think that the second example, slow infiltration of ideas, is really applicable here. That isn't warfare, that's propagands. The first idea, forcing people with "bad" (which is a misnomer, I think) ideas to submit, fits in with the idea of total destruction. In the end, those who refuse to submit must be destroyed, or else you will never win. Hence the 'Kill so many of them that those who are left alive lose their will to fight on. Do whatever it
takes' mentality.
Look at the recent war in Iraq. The US didn't start the war by infiltrating an idea slowly, it bombed the hell out of Baghdad and THEN started to try and impose democracy on the Iraqi people. Destruction first, conversion later.
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Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.
Modern war isn't about ideology, although we would be led to believe so, but it might be used to mobilize public support. It's actually about resources and/or power. We need oil to survive, and the middle east is our supply. As long as our standard of living depends on oil, we'll be in the middle east.
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Modern war is about ideas not destruction too win these wars you must change the ideas you don't like. their are only two methods too do this, force the people with bad ideas to submit too your control for a few decades or slowly infiltrate your ideas into their method of thinking.
Modern war isn't about ideology, although we would be led to believe so, but it might be used to mobilize public support. It's actually about resources and/or power. We need oil to survive, and the middle east is our supply. As long as our standard of living depends on oil, we'll be in the middle east.
that entire depends if how people fight it.
it is symmetrical war (where each side can has physical powerbase), then yes, it is about power/resources.
however, in Asymmetrical war, it becomes something more. the enemy isn't dead as long as they have someone else to pick up the torch once the older generation is either dead, kill, or captured. it becomes more a vigil on the part of the victor to keep a look out for these followers.
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I like that Jake wanted to be a fighter pilot before the war. He already knew he would rock.
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Starsword
Destruction is a means to the end, if it wasn’t then we would simply drop nukes or MOABs in the middle of cities.
Terenia
The United States has been the Vanguards of an Ideological war that has been raging worldwide for 300+ years. Only after WW2 did we take active role in this war too stop the spread Communism, we did ok for 50 years but in the last 20 years we have lost considerable ground. And yes destruction is a tool used in the first method if you lack the power and/or will to walk in and take control then you hammer those people into the ground till you can. As for Iraq we had plenty of chances to reshape that country without invading and did nothing, in fact some could say we sabotaged efforts that could have lead to a democratic Iraq.
Had KAA not been so hell bent on ending the war as disgusting and pointlessly as possible (to highlight on disgusting and pointless rl war is in her view) she may have been able too craft an ending with far more meaning and power. Yes, war is not something to glorify, it costly and wasteful, but never is a war pointless. We may not like the points later on or find new information that invalidates those points, but never is it pointless.
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So it isn't pointless to murder tens of thousands of people in Darfur because of an oil grudge (and a crazy leader)? That's a war that has left countless dead and more refugees, and I see no point to that.
The point of the Crusades was the spread of Christianity and acquisition of land (among other things). A rather pointless reason to wage war, if you ask me.
The war on Iraq was waged for multiple reasons, most of which I consider quite pointless.
Even the Civil War was not waged for the purpose of abolishing slavery. It was one of the better outcomes of the war, but it was not the reason that the war was waged.
I have a feeling that we merely have ideological differences here, visser, because I see no point in most wars (note the emphasis on most. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule). I think we may have to agree to disagree there.
Perhaps with the outcome of certain conflicts good does arise, but it is good arising from the ashes of tens of thousands dead over a struggle that is based in the ideology of a select few.
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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill
in Darfur the killing has a point we my not agree or understand but it serves someones goals. the fact that so many people have been affected means more then one crazy leader also sees the point, or at least sees a means too their own goals.
My understanding of the Crusades was the Pope wanted to get the rest of Europe to stop fighting each other so he told them too retake the holy land. He forgot too tell them were it was and how too get there so most Crusades ended in the middle of nowhere thousands of miles from the target. it may seem pointless to us but those men did have their reasons none they considered pointless.
15-0 the U.N.S.C. said Iraq had M.W.D.s and were looking to build nukes only the U.S.A. was willing too do something about it. LUCKY for us many Terrorists went there to die instead of coming here AND the Middle East maybe seeing the first Democracy in its histroy...
Abolishing slavery was a weapon Abraham Lincoln use against the South, the civil war was a fight over the Fundamental Nature of the United States if that wasn't worth fighting for then what in this world is?
In my mind calling a war pointless is calling the people that suffered and died in it worthless. We look back at history to learn lessons for the future but we can not judge the people for their perceived failings because with out them WE would be the ones paying for those lessons.
if tens of thousands die because of the ideas of a select few then someone should have been paying more attention.
P.S. sorry for highhacking this thread Jake is one of my Fav book chars and that ending made him seem worthless. i still feel a bit sore when i think about it.
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Ah, I think I misunderstood you. Apologies.
I am aware that all war has some point, to someone. I was commenting on the fact that often times the point is pointless. For example: the forcing of religion on others is a point that many believe in, but I find to be disgusting.
Similarly, you don't have to fight in a war to have something worth fighting for. There have been many peaceful protests throughout the years (Ghandi? MLK Jr. anyone?) and I would never say that those people were miserable for avoiding violence.
Also, those who fight in wars are brave people, no matter what side they are fighting on. Whether or not I agree with their reasons for fighting I admire their courageousness and dedication.
Now, of course, in the Animorphs fight there was no choice but to go to war. The war came to them, and it was a cause that the Yeerks believed in heartily. I do think that the way that Jake came out of it sucked, and the ending itself was rather disheartening, but quite often war is disheartening (like in Iraq...we didn't actually find any WMD's, which lead quite a few people to question the war itself). Still, the ending of Animorphs, while not ideal, did lead to a win.
I think I may have disliked the ending even more if it left off with them slapping a high-five and strolling away. Jake had to suffer like he did. After he went through all of that? I don't think that there was anything else for him...
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It is all relative, what if you are forcing your beliefs on a people that kill thousands, the lucky ones only forced too watch their still beating heart eaten before they die?
peaceful protests only work if the other side is too nice to kill you or the threat of violence is too great a risk. Talk Softly But Carry A Big Stick
The biggest issue with the end is KAA forced the story too fit it. Instead of an epic struggle between Animorph and yeerk she tied one of Jake's hand behind his back, bashed a knee with a lead pipe and, used his family against him. the Yerkes changed little and seemed only intent was too cause trouble till the animorphs could beat them.
Ya them walking away high-fives all around would have been a worst ending, but only if you kept the rest of the ending the same.
oh they did find MWDs in Iraq, i have not been able to find the details for some reason Bush never made noise about them but some were found.
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lol this thread is getting a-maize-ing
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I'd be interested to see that about the WMD....you would think that Bush and his admin would make a pretty big stink about it since that was the reason for the war in the first place...
Anyhoo, in regards to the Animorphs...I'm not sure what you mean by:
Ya them walking away high-fives all around would have been a worst ending, but only if you kept the rest of the ending the same.
Care to explain? Is there a situation where them walking away, all six, whole and complete and in total victory-mode would have worked? I can't see it. But maybe you can enlighten me :)
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A totally happy ending with no downsides would not have worked for Animorphs. Bittersweet would be the best way. Just more sweet than bitter, so it isn't a tragic ending. I would list the Animorphs ending as tragic.
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In my own feeble attempts to write stories I have found two methods for crafting a good ending to a story first you have an end you want, then you shape the rest of the story too lead to that end. Second you write the story you want then shape an end that concludes it. The important thing to both methods is using everything you have done too those characters in the final battle. Every joy and pain, love and lost, friend and enemy must find a place in how they react, win, lose, and die.
I do not think KAA did either, she had an ending in mind at only as far back as MM4: Back to Before in order to make that end fit she hammered the Animorphs into it and ‘forgot’ things that would have made her ideal ending difficult. This is the reason so many people did not like the final. Both of them.
I personally would have made a far bloodier and painful end where thousands died in outright war,the yeerk empire fractured in several pieces, and 2-3 animorphs met their death.
The happy end I can only see if everything after book 10 was redone and the series ended after 30 books
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why 30?
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why 30?
Because 31 is too long...
No why?
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Why is 31 too long? Hmm. I'm not sure what 31 is about.
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yea he was awesome but he was sort of anoying hey this reminds me of that animorphsjake guy
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yea he was awesome but he was sort of anoying hey this reminds me of that animorphsjake guy
howso?