Author Topic: Andalite Evolution  (Read 2314 times)

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Offline Yarin

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Andalite Evolution
« on: August 07, 2009, 02:17:09 AM »
I'm trying to figure out the andalite evolutionary path.
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Offline JFalcon

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2009, 08:53:44 AM »
Mm, I'm a sucker for these kinds of discussions, I remember me and my WoW guild had this long drawn out discussion about Fraggle evolution and landed on them being hairy amphibians. As for Andalites there just isn't much to go on, you can only guess, imagine what enviroment (Remember, it's supposedly similar to Earth) would develop a creature with high inteligence, so many extra/redundant organs (was it two or three hearts?) that eats grass through its hooves and is sustained thusly.

Though I'll say I think the tail blades probably started out as a weaker thing, you know, for show like a deer's antlers, and over time since they were prey, natural selection just sort of picked the males with stronger, sturdier, deadlier tail blades or something. Their legs still and will probably always stump me, but as for the eyes, I kind of wonder if that might be part of why they became inteligent, I mean maybe it takes a complicated brain to handle two main eyes and then two intependant stalk eyes, thus higher intellect was achieved or something like that.

Earlier Andalites, or Nondalites as I'll call them, might not have used their hands as hands, imagine if they were legs, if early Andalites were like Taxxons, moving along on six legs, then over time the back four got longer, the front two developed into hands . . . just a thought. What would cause a creature with both hooves and hands actually? Or cause a creature with six hooves to suddenly lose two and develop them into hands.
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Offline MoppingBear

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2009, 10:29:09 AM »
the need to be able to manipulate... things. yeah its complicated. any one feature of the andalites can be easily explained from an evolutionary standpoint, but some of them seem to go against each other. hands, especially ones so dextrous, are really only useful to animals for foraging, separating bad bugs from good, and eating them. for a species that eats through its hooves, this is totally unnecessary.  its possible that the hands evolved first, maybe ancient andalites had mouths, and were omnivores, but then a preditor appeared in their environment that made eating on the run a necessity.

Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 11:58:04 AM »
what about the mouth at some point in their evolution they must have has a mouth
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Offline Breekan1

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2009, 12:27:11 PM »
The foot-mouths are odd enough and integral enough that I think they would have had to be a pretty original mechanism in Andalite evolution. My guess is that they started with at least one mammalian proboscis that also functioned as a leg. Perhaps as they developed either in size or intelligence some mutation occurred that caused this proboscis to take the place of four of their legs rather than just one, to meet increasing nutritional needs.

Alternatively (and to explain the hands) rather than merely "replacing" the legs with the proboscises it became evolutionarily advantageous to evolve more, and at some point the proto-andalites had both multiple mouth-legs and multiple normal-legs. Once this form was established, it became more natural for the grazers to simply walk on their proboscises all the time, leaving the original legs redundant. This freed the original limbs to perform other tasks; I imagine that prior to the introduction of thought-speak by Toomin, they may have communicated mostly through hand-signals. Their intellect may have developed concurrently with their hands, as those who could communicate by waving their redundant limbs survived longer than those who couldn't. The ability to make more complex hand signals developed concurrently with the ability to understand them and so on, until we found something resembling the seven-fingered hands of the Andalites. These would be altered even further as Andalite intellect developed and those who could use their communicative-limbs to manipulate their environment out-survived those that couldn't, and the hands became more and more developed to facilitate tool-use. However, since (evolutionarily) this is a secondary purpose for the Andalite's hands, they remain relatively weak. After all, the Andalites were morphologically complete by the time that thought-speech was invented, meaning that natural selection still favored those whose hands were dexterous and communicative over those whose hands were strong and manipulative.

Likewise, their third redundant limb (most logically a rear limb; in the original set-up, we can presume that the proboscis was one of the back legs, with the two front legs becoming the arms after the "proboscis expansion" and with the other former back leg sticking out in the manner I am about to describe) would have been of limited use developing enhanced dexterity or appendages, due to its comparative distance and thus the difficulty of discerning its finer movements. Instead, evolution would have favored a limb capable of a wider degree of gross movement, a more flexible limb similar in fashion to the Andalite tails we see today. From there, it's sensible to suppose that (being a prey-species) those Andalites who developed deadly weapons at the end of these flexible and increasingly long limbs would have lasted longer and been selected for.

The proboscises would have developed hooves later in their existence as they were relied on more as feet. This likely would have resembled standard hoof-development, though obviously they must have developed so as to keep the food path open (though likely collapsible!) Perhaps the hooves feature some sort of natural "hinge" allowing them to open to accept food.

What we have so far is a creature featuring all of the limbs typical of the Andalites. Other Andalite features may have developed at any other time during this process. The multiple Andalite hearts are of obvious value to a species of such size and activity, allowing them to supply all parts of the body with blood even at peak-physical performance. Stalk-eyes are of obvious value to the Andalites as a prey-species, and their high positioning would have allowed them to detect a variety of threats in their native grassy terrain. Since it would be odd for a pair of stalk-eyes to develop in the middle of an already-developed skull, chances are the Andalites had four eyes to begin with, and over time two of them protruded farther and farther from the face, eventually taking their form and position on the skull. It may even be that they originally developed with eyes literally on the backs of their heads, and that 360 degree vision is a trait their brains are long-accustomed to.

The Andalites' sense of smell is clearly not meant to discern quality or variation in their food, given their almost non-existent (but still present, see: Elfangor's reference to "flavors of grass") sense of taste. Given the positioning of their noses (high up on the body rather than low on the ground near their food), they likely function to detect pheremones (which would have been useful for communication) and perhaps the scents of predators.

Finally, the fur of the Andalites has historically ranged from blue to purple with tan stripes. Given that this coloration varies depending upon sex and age, its function seems to be for sexual selection rather than camouflage, with the vibrancy of one's coat indicating one's health, vigor and probable status within the community.

Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2009, 01:32:45 PM »
Brilliant but couldn't the nose also function as a breathing apparatus?
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Offline Breekan1

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2009, 02:35:11 PM »
Brilliant but couldn't the nose also function as a breathing apparatus?

Well of course it would do that too, but there's evidence to indicates that Andalites do smell. I think at one point Ax even mentions humans having a particular smell, much to Marco's chagrin.

Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2009, 02:45:08 PM »
Yeah your right lol
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Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 02:54:02 PM »
But what are the tailblades made of? I'm thinking an organic metal.
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Offline anijen21

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2009, 03:26:58 PM »
I kind of agree that Andalites don't need hands. The only purpose I would think they would serve is to protect the young, to hold them and keep them close. But really...I can't see their evolutionary pattern requiring the use of dextrous appendages.

I actually really like the description in the Ellimist Chronicles that kind of shows how they developed not only as a species, but as a society and culture. Their tails, I think, were an evolutionary necessity just to protect from all of the monsters that roamed their planet before (I'm assuming) they killed them all off, as were stalk eyes and the ability to run like, really fast.

I can't really explain why, but I really feel like that pre-history jibes with their conflicting benevolence and violence, their trust and paranoia. Just the fact that they're herd/family animals by nature makes them trusting and social, but the fact that the majority of their development as a species was spent as prey explains their arrogance (since they won) and sense of entitlement, I guess.

idk I thought that whole part was the most insightful part of the Ellimist Chronicles.
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Offline Breekan1

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 04:20:29 PM »
The tail blade is probably made of bone, perhaps coated in enamel like a tooth.

Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 05:32:22 PM »
but it can cut through bone. bone on bone will shatter
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Offline anijen21

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2009, 05:50:47 PM »
dogs can chew through bone

teeth are made of bone
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Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2009, 07:13:01 PM »
but its likely to shatter thats all im saying
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Offline ThinkAgain

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2009, 07:30:01 PM »
Tooth enamel is significantly harder than normal bone. Also, 'organic metal' is highly subjective. Calcium is a metal, although organized with other elements in a crystalline formation. Of course, while it's theoretically possible to replace the calcium with other, physically tougher elements, I don't know how much good that will do, as from what I know of biology, it would have to be crystalline in order to grow and heal (not in the setup of an actual pure metal like Colossus from X-Men), and crystal minerals by nature tend to be very brittle.

That's why the claws of animals on Earth are not bone. Bone, being crystalline, is very strong, but brittle, and can shatter with sudden impact, or under tension. Claws are made of keratin, a type of protein. It's the same thing that's in your nails. From my knowledge, there is nothing on Earth naturally created by an animal strong enough and sharp enough to slash through bone. Actually, it's very difficult to get a steel blade to slash right through bones. Usually bones are broken, not cut.

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Offline MoppingBear

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2009, 10:33:34 PM »
maybe they naturally arent that strong, but andalite warriors sharpen / strengthen it by some means?

Offline JFalcon

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2009, 08:45:36 AM »
If that were the case it'd still have to be fairly strong even without such tempering or Tobias' Andalite morph shouldn't have been able to use his tail blade, though I admit he didn't use it very much so I wont totally count out the posibility.

I could kind of see it being strong enough for self defense normally but warrior tempering making it strong enough to cut through some of the various wonderful things we see Ax cut through.  >:D
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Offline dolphin4077

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2009, 04:43:19 PM »
If it's not naturally strong, then wouldn't whatever Ax would do to make it stronger be lost every time he morphs?

Offline MoppingBear

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2009, 06:48:11 PM »
no moreso than the animorphs haircuts

Offline Galladerotom

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2009, 09:37:11 PM »
Okay from what we know Toomin first visited andal (short for andalite homeworld) when earth was still in the Jurassic period so there would have been plenty of time to develop telepathy. As for the mouth's on feet it could be a characteristic inherited from a certain invertebrate ancestor. As the legs became sturdier the proboscuses remained.
Actually andalites are remarkably fit (evolutary term) they could live like herd animals in packs for defense and could strike back. It is important to remember that andal is mostly composed of land therefore the need to become terrestrial would be much more necessary for a lifeform as it would provide a much larger supply of food. Think about the Leerans they remained oceanic but even though they are amphibious they never became pure land dwellers. Why? Because there is much more room out in the ocean.
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Offline voodooqueen126

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2009, 10:06:23 AM »
not being brachiaters they really don't need hands. my father's theory was that Andalites are insects since they are six limbed which fits in with the whole weird proboscis theory... Centaurs are really hard to evolve.

Offline Bustercloud

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2009, 10:17:11 AM »
Well up until they got their thought-speak, they used sign language to communication. Not to mention it would be part of their mating rituals/intimate contacts. So hands probably evolved strictly in favor of communication, and over time became more and more adapt at handling objects and having more uses.
 
I'm more interested in how Thought-speak would be developed. Does that mean their mental power is just that much greater? Does it mean they're only a short step from being able to move things with their minds?

Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2009, 10:26:18 AM »
They probably aren't insects but maybe very early on in thier evolution they were insectoid
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Offline voodooqueen126

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2009, 10:42:58 PM »
I think it is possible to be six limbed and not an insect, aside andalites lack exoskeloten and all those other weird insect things.
My theory about thoughtspeak is that it is genetically  similar to blue eyes:
for instance every  blue eyed human on earth is descended from one person living near the black sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color#Blue
likewise since andalites before toomin used sign language and he addresses them in thoughtspeak we must conclude that he Toomin introduced thoughtspeak into their gene pool and all thoughtspeaking Andalites are his descendents, this would have been hugely advantageous to them unlike blue eyes which make people more prone to cancer or something called ophthalmological diseases.
This makes for a very interesting fanfiction possibilities: What happens to Andalites who aren't descended from the Ellimist? It also makes a for a more logical version of Korean Pearls' Elemaki.
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But the Damn hands with damn opposable thumbs is what gets me. Perhaps the hands are a random mutation the equivalent of a human child being born with a tail or frilly gill things in the case of the andalites this must have been very useful random mutation.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 10:44:49 PM by voodooqueen126 »

Offline Yarin

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2009, 01:04:31 AM »
Perhaps the hands were created out of necessity for holding tools and what not
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Offline voodooqueen126

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2009, 01:44:47 AM »
They graze with their feet, so they don't need tools.
I reckon the Andalite tail blade is made of teeth.

Offline MoppingBear

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2009, 02:23:13 PM »
i am also curious about their technological evolution.  ax mentions several times that andalites developed technology at a much slower pace than humans.  how was the blue box invented?  it is said that necessity is the mother of all inventions, and yet, the andalites are the dominant species on their planet, and pretty much in the galaxy.  aside from visser 3's morphs, which he goes out of his way to find, most of the species we see in the series are nowhere near as dangerous as andalites natural bodies, and in the book with the leerans, an andalite mentions that most warriors dont have anywhere near the number of morphs the animorphs do.  why then did they need to invent the blue box?  was it discovered from another species?

Offline voodooqueen126

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Re: Andalite Evolution
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2009, 08:46:10 AM »
I"ve been thinking about that as well, a good number of human advancement have been made because we are puny and later for warfare, andalites are neither puny or warlike so why do anything? What is their incentive? Maybe the reason they invent more slowly than is that they are less warlike/driven. Would the atomic bomb have been invented so soon after uranium was discover (remember Ax's conversation in book 8) if humans hadn't been so desperate during world war 2? Would we have landed on the moon if the cold war hadnt driven competition between American and Russia? Notice that the space program slowed down since the end of the cold war? I imagine the Andalite incentive for science is not desperation but optimism and desire for knowledge. Sure Andalites invented the Escafil device, but they probably invented it for fun rather than a need to spy on people (which would be the human motivation for inventing such a device) and it would've taken them 4 times as long as it would have taken humans...