Totally Random Animorphs Thoughts

[RYTX]

I'm sorry but I have to say that it's pretty frustrating, as someone who is gay, how people suddenly lament over how undervalued platonic ships are almost exclusively whenever the mere possibility of gay ships are mentioned. It's just a huge downer to come on here after Marco's confirmed to be bi only to see people complain about it.

Personally my issue is with this "confirmed bi".
A co-author puts this on social media 15 years after the book is over, and that should not make it confirmed. It's just fan-fiction from the author imo.
If they want to make him gay bi or anything else, but it in the book. Write a new book, make book 55 three lines and that the sole topic, but until then don't tell me it's canon when through the whole of the series Macro only expressed a sexual interest in woman.

That book 40 is being referred to as "the gay andalites are okay andalites book " is equally vexing. Maybe they were, but we only ever get the word friend-repeatedly and explicitly- to add a romantic label and say two individuals of the same sex who are close are must have been gay seems offensive in it's own right.

[NickDaGriff]

I'm sorry but I have to say that it's pretty frustrating, as someone who is gay, how people suddenly lament over how undervalued platonic ships are almost exclusively whenever the mere possibility of gay ships are mentioned. It's just a huge downer to come on here after Marco's confirmed to be bi only to see people complain about it.

I take serious issue with the implication that I'm being homophobic.  I say platonic relationships are undervalued because that's honestly how I feel, all the time, not just when gays are mentioned.  LGBT has nothing to do with the issue.  Everywhere I look on the internet, all I see is people talking about how they want to pair up absolutely every imaginable combination of characters (romantically, sexually, and beyond), even if it totally goes against everything the characters in question are and how they feel about each other.  I like keeping characters in character, because violating who and what they are just turns them into a one-dimensional slate for everyone to slather their own personal fantasies onto and kills what makes them unique individuals.  It's a whole different beast from just mere alternate interpretations.  Tumblr likes to go crazy with the stuff, and that's what bugs me.

I don't have a problem with any of the characters being gay or bi.  I just can't see it in Marco.  Part of it may be because I'm kinda antisocial and maybe even aromantic.  I dunno.  However, offhand, I remember plenty of times he's fantasized about/hit on chicks, and none where he's fantasized about/hit on dudes.  Like, not even curiosities, really.  That would definitely be worth a mention if it happened, given how hard Marco works to cover up all his insecurities, especially if the dude in question happens to be from a different species and planet altogether.  Keeping in character, it would create an insane amount of awkwardness and stress for him because he doesn't want to change how others perceive him, just breaking him down under his easygoing exterior.  Combine that with everything else going on in his life, and he'd probably end up having a mental breakdown way earlier than he actually did. 

This is bigger than Dumbledore, because in this case it actually would have an effect on how he approached his relationships.  Dumbledore never sought out a partner.  Marco did.  If such a significant detail isn't actually in the series, and ultimately doesn't lead to any different conclusions or connect any dots, it might as well not be canon and I have a really hard time accepting it.  It'd be like if they said that Rachel's true favorite morph was actually an ostrich she acquired off screen.  We don't see her morphing it ever, it's never brought up, it doesn't quite gel with how she acted, and ultimately had no bearing on how she approached things in the series.  We know she's pretty cool with bird morphs, but...  That's about all there is going for it in the book itself.

All that being said, I found the (very nsfw) fic "Ax the Prostitute" totally hilarious because it was so well in-character up until just before the end.  That seemed to me like a logical angle for the Marco/Ax pairing to work.  XD

Anyway, if you want to interpret the character that way, okay.  If you want to write fanfic for pairings, that's your prerogative.  Just please don't insinuate I'm acting homophobic because I disagree.

[menderash]

A character from a 90s series: Retconned on a whim to be bisexual because it doesn't not make sense, hurts literally nobody, and it makes a bunch of lifelong LGBT anifans happy.
Y'all: A bunch of heterosexual and/or otherwise just plain grumpy frumps complaining about this thing that affects your life in literally no negative way.

Also, none of this has literally anything to do with shipping?? Shipping was never once mentioned. This is about LGBT fans getting Word of God vindicated and nothing more. Chill. It being canon (yes, the word canon is used) affects nothing you thought about the character previously. It just opens up new facets for meta and things.  He thought a fish person was hot, him liking boys is totally normal compared to that for crying out loud! I think y'all will survive.
Ugh. I thought y'all would be excited to have an, albeit retconned, main LGBT character, but all this did was remind me why I never had a RAF account to begin with. So I think this is where I'll hop off for now. If y'all really wanna complain about the sexuality of this fictional character for whatever totally not homophobic reason, you can tweet @ me or send me a message on tumblr, my name is still menderash on both.
Viva la canon bi Marco! \m/

[guitarhero01234]

I'm not gonna get into the debate about Marco and all of that, but I do find it insulting that you insinuate that RAFians are mostly homophobic. I've personally found everyone here to be incredibly accepting of my sexuality, and it shows quite a bit of ignorance on your part to assume that when you're only going off of a couple people having a different viewpoint on Michael Grant's tweet than yours.

[Cloak]

A character from a 90s series: Retconned on a whim to be bisexual because it doesn't not make sense, hurts literally nobody, and it makes a bunch of lifelong LGBT anifans happy.
Y'all: A bunch of heterosexual and/or otherwise just plain grumpy frumps complaining about this thing that affects your life in literally no negative way.

Also, none of this has literally anything to do with shipping?? Shipping was never once mentioned. This is about LGBT fans getting Word of God vindicated and nothing more. Chill. It being canon (yes, the word canon is used) affects nothing you thought about the character previously. It just opens up new facets for meta and things.  He thought a fish person was hot, him liking boys is totally normal compared to that for crying out loud! I think y'all will survive.
Ugh. I thought y'all would be excited to have an, albeit retconned, main LGBT character, but all this did was remind me why I never had a RAF account to begin with. So I think this is where I'll hop off for now. If y'all really wanna complain about the sexuality of this fictional character for whatever totally not homophobic reason, you can tweet @ me or send me a message on tumblr, my name is still menderash on both.
Viva la canon bi Marco! \m/

My god, you're a prick. You know, just because not everyone subscribes to your personal viewpoint bulletpoint to bulletpoint does not make us homophobic. I get it, you were excited that you go what you wanted (although I think you're reading far too much into it, as it could have been a joke for all you know, considering the way it was worded). But you can get off your high and mighty attitude, right there, buckaroo.

What did you really expect, menderash? A parade? To be lauded for your part? From the link in your first post, it seemed like you coerced him to say that more him stating it of his own free will. Honestly, I think what this "catch_yer_own_train" guy -- on the very page you linked -- said perfectly accurate:

Wtf that menderash guy was pushy af
Actor says he thought marco wasnt bi and so menderash responds with like twenty tweets melodramatically whining about the most childish "wah this character isnt made exclusively for me" thing? Cmon son

You, pal, are no different from a homophobe, only on the other end of spectrum. Where you hurl around "heterosexual" like a slur. And how strange it is that you like to be very pushy until someone decides to push back, and then you lash out in some arguably elitist ways.

Look, I'm sorry, but I don't take very kindly to people like that. And, honestly, if you don't want to come back because some dared to have a difference of opinion and push back, then fine. We can do fine without you, I think, and I will only apologize for the harshness of my tone and nothing else.

And, yes, I'll admit, I wrote this post out of anger at your utter pretentiousness, menderash.

[YeerkSalad]

We aren't bothered by him being bi, I'm pretty sure. If you aren't straight it's totally fine. It's the fact that it was lazily and rather insincerely presented, as if Grant was just saying it to make you happy. Not that your happiness is a bad thing, of course.

[NickDaGriff]

I am bi, and a god damn furry on top of that.  Never said it so outright before, but that's the case.  Been that way for years, since long before I ever got into Animorphs.  So don't act like I don't get it, and definitely don't throw around the word heterosexual like it's some kind of synonym for bigot.  Consider this me kicking the closet door off its hinges to smack you in your Tumblr-bigoted face.  Just leave it there guys, I'll reattach it later.

Marco briefly thought a fish person was hot.  Said fish person also had a female form and might not have even been wearing all that much (the book said raggedy togas, so who knows).  It's not evidence for him being bi because THAT ISN'T HOW SEXUALITY WORKS.  Just because you get a passing interest in one weird thing, doesn't mean you are automatically into something that's less weird.  Weirdness is extremely subjective.  Trust me, I know this well.

Shipping was mentioned before you joined the conversation.  You can't jump in and try to dictate what we can and can't talk about.  That's considered poor etiquette in any scenario.

Yanno, I was all set to welcome you into the community after a pleasant, thoughtful, intelligent conversation about Marco's character, but never mind that.  I'm deeply insulted by this.  This is why I've never set foot anywhere near Tumblr for as long as I could help it.

[Dylan]

As an LGBT fan, a normal Rafian, and the guy who brought this to RAF in the first place, I guess I should have say on what I think about this. And what I think about this is "Ooohh that's cool " and "Tobarco would be a funny fanfic ".
Also, it was just added to Seerowpedia . " While explaining that since he personally felt "everyone is bi to one degree or another", Michael Grant recently admitted on Twitter that Marco was in fact bisexual. Many readers felt this as his teasing of the male Animorphs and Ax might have been considered more. He also explained that at the time of printing, in the mid to late 90s, some things were not considered appropriate by Scholastic to publish."

[menderash]

You're all right, I should not have insinuated that you're all heterosexuals or, if you are, that you are automatically not open to the idea of diverse sexuality in media. That is poor judgement on my part. My response was emotionally charged, as it should be obvious that I do have a bias as a gay person. I hope you understand. I will try to be more objective in the future.
I do want to have an open dialogue and discuss my favorite character with people, but then something pretty cool like this happens and the general response on this site seemed to be "I don't think there is any way in any interpretation this could be even remotely feasible and it's just PC pandering to pushy fans", how am I supposed to respond to that? What is there to discuss or express besides hurt? Is there a way? It's just very depressing to hear.

Regardless, I do hope we can have discussions about a good character and subtext and things without just running into a "this isn't possible ever because reasons" wall over and over. That tweet could open up a whole new world (ala Aladdin) of Marco meta and reading his POV in new ways, but instead I kind of just turned it into an argument. I really am sorry for that. Like I said, biased and emotionally charged! We should have fun talking about this, not arguing about it.

[Ash]

That's the spirit, menderash! I understand where you were coming from, and I'm glad you accepted your second post wasn't the friendliest.
I've been around forums a lot, but no place has made me more aware of LGBTQIA or more accepting/open-minded than RAF has - I can proudly say I'm straight but not narrow

I look forward to the in-depth discussions about Marco

[NickDaGriff]

You're all right, I should not have insinuated that you're all heterosexuals or, if you are, that you are automatically not open to the idea of diverse sexuality in media. That is poor judgement on my part. My response was emotionally charged, as it should be obvious that I do have a bias as a gay person. I hope you understand. I will try to be more objective in the future.

Well...  I'm glad for that.  I'll be honest, I wrote my last comment in the heat of emotion too, kinda tinging the way I usually write.  If you're willing to move past it, though, then I am too.

I do want to have an open dialogue and discuss my favorite character with people, but then something pretty cool like this happens and the general response on this site seemed to be "I don't think there is any way in any interpretation this could be even remotely feasible and it's just PC pandering to pushy fans", how am I supposed to respond to that? What is there to discuss or express besides hurt? Is there a way? It's just very depressing to hear.

A couple of ways to respond to that.

1) Realize that it wasn't meant as an attack on you or anyone's preference.  I, as a writer myself, was mostly just criticizing the way in which this was handled.  I can accept that Marco could be open to some things.  The way it was presented just goes against my philosophy as a writer: everything in the story should be relevant to the story's development, and everything that could be relevant to its development should be at least addressed within the story itself.  That's what makes the overall story feel like a cohesive whole.

2) Accept that other people might have more loose or rigid interpretations of a character, regardless of what the author chooses to label as canon.  Nothing wrong with that.  I mean, holy hell, don't get me started on my opinions of Cassie.  Even MG said himself, "What we put on the page is our part; what you find there is your part. That's how it works."  That goes for everyone.

3) My favorite, relevant GIFs.

[guitarhero01234]

You're all right, I should not have insinuated that you're all heterosexuals or, if you are, that you are automatically not open to the idea of diverse sexuality in media. That is poor judgement on my part. My response was emotionally charged, as it should be obvious that I do have a bias as a gay person. I hope you understand. I will try to be more objective in the future.
I do want to have an open dialogue and discuss my favorite character with people, but then something pretty cool like this happens and the general response on this site seemed to be "I don't think there is any way in any interpretation this could be even remotely feasible and it's just PC pandering to pushy fans", how am I supposed to respond to that? What is there to discuss or express besides hurt? Is there a way? It's just very depressing to hear.

Regardless, I do hope we can have discussions about a good character and subtext and things without just running into a "this isn't possible ever because reasons" wall over and over. That tweet could open up a whole new world (ala Aladdin) of Marco meta and reading his POV in new ways, but instead I kind of just turned it into an argument. I really am sorry for that. Like I said, biased and emotionally charged! We should have fun talking about this, not arguing about it.

First off, I want to say thank you for being so mature in your response. It takes a lot of guts to come back and be so level-headed after we pretty much jumped down your throat, and I applaud you for that. I think everybody pretty much said what I wanted to, so I'll just say that looking back on my original response, I may have been a little harsh. I promise that I wasn't trying to be mean, as I try to be as friendly as possible on RAF, so if it came off as douchey, I apologize for that. I just tend to get a little defensive of this place, since it's practically a second home for me.

Now that that uncomfortable-ness is out of the way, I'd like to say, welcome to RAF, and I do hope you stick around.

[menderash]

1) Realize that it wasn't meant as an attack on you or anyone's preference.  I, as a writer myself, was mostly just criticizing the way in which this was handled.  I can accept that Marco could be open to some things.  The way it was presented just goes against my philosophy as a writer: everything in the story should be relevant to the story's development, and everything that could be relevant to its development should be at least addressed within the story itself.  That's what makes the overall story feel like a cohesive whole.

Oh I wholeheartedly agree- but that's what I think makes the New Age of Social Media so engaging and interesting for fanbases. In cases like this, you just kind of have to accept that Animorphs is almost a decade and a half old at this pont. It's not getting any new content any time soon. Any new information or speculation is going to be superfluous and unnecessary, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially in an old zombie fandom like ours!

Like for instance, let's be honest, we all knew in our hearts that Gafinilan and Mertil were more than "just friends." The subtext and symbolism was puh-retty heavy. So when, I guess it was a few weeks ago now, MG posted on his blog about the various diverse characters he's written and he listed Gafinilan and Mertil as a couple under the header of gay characters he's written, it came as a surprise to very few! Even fifteen years after the book was published, lol. (Actually, did RAF know about that? I feel like that blog post kind of flew under the radar. IDK if it got talked about here. Anyway it's canon, they were a couple.)
So, does Gafinilan and Mertil's story still work if they're just Really Good Friends? Of course it does! Animorphs is a plethora of platonic friends going through hell and back for each other. Is it a superfluous detail to be revealed fifteen years after the fact? Yeah, it doesn't really change a whole lot. But does it add a whole new layer and emotional significance to their interactions and the point of the story now that they're confirmed to have been In Love??? HECK YEAH. (EDIT: I also wanna add that the reason it wasn't explicit in the first place was almost definitely due to 90s scholastic censorship.)

Anyway I hope that's how we can approach this Marco thing! Even if you're not into ~Shipping~, I think looking at Marco's actions and motivations from a new light could be fun and interesting. Like, does his initial hostility towards Tobias and even Cassie make more sense if you think his motivations are different? (AKA, jealousy?) How about his pact with Cassie to keep Jake safe in Megamorphs #3 and his reaction when he fails? With the above knowledge, could he have related to Gafinilan and Mertil in a different way, a way that made him act almost uncharacteristicall y sympathetic towards Mertil in the end of the book? When he got closer to Ax near the end of the series, could there have been parallels between them to Elfangor and Loren that went unexplored? OPEN DOORS, PEOPLE! It's a WONDERLAND of meta and speculation!!! 

[YeerkSalad]

"It's okay, we're very good friends."

[redtailedsaffa]

I see vivaria still hasn't responded, even though she was saying basically what you initially said, but thank you, Menderash, for opening your mind a little more towards the forum and apologizing, that was good spirit. See, I know as a member of a minority - I'm LGBT-curious and a woman in a third-world country - we tend to get extremely defensive about the rights and recognition we fight for, but if we have to gain them, we have to welcome the other side in, not push them away just because 0.1% of the population was born with a naturally bigoted mind. Anyway, now that that's out of the way, we can move on to Marco.

I always saw two sides to the Ax-Marco pairing - (a) they did spend a lot of time together doing non-battle stuff and you could definitely read more into whatever happened there, and it would be a fun pairing to explore; (b) even though it sounds sweet, I'd rather not, because by this point the other four have paired off as well, pairing off every single character of a group within a group to me feels lazy, and doesn't give room for platonicity, which in itself is a very special relationship that can solve issues that a romantic relationship gets in the way of. That said, the more romances within the group, the less variety of writing and character dynamics available.

It's not to say I didn't consider it completely; I did. But I would've been happier if that was actually written into canon in some form, like they did with Gafilnan and Mertil, because EVERYONE saw that one, come on. Leaving it as a footnote 15 years later doesn't really get me the same way and I'm more likely not to take it seriously, like how random details keep getting added to Harry Potter long after the series has ended. You don't need to do that, the fandom's still there no matter how big it is, and if they're good fans they'll still enjoy the books with every re-read several years down the line. Making headcanons is what fanfiction is for. At least then I don't have to read it, considering most fanfiction is terribly OOC.