Chee's Non-Violence Programming

[NateSean]

Here's a link to a Chee related discussion started in 2008. Many boards frown on necromancy and I'd rather just link the discussion for reference and start a new one.

http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1869.15

That said this is my observation followed by a question as to what the rest of you think.

The Chee are programmed for non-violence. So to me that means that they are physically incapable of taking an action which directly harms someone or something. I say directly because we see several examples of the Chee either condoning, or being the indirect causes of violence.

First example:

The Chee are sentient beings and therefore able to make decisions. Erek and a few other Chee make the decision to find the Pemalite crystal and change their programming. So, before the events of the Android, Erek clearly sees violence as an acceptable method to get the job done with the Yeerks. This would suggest that while he is programmed not to harm someone, he is not programmed not to consider harming someone.

Second Example:

The Chee, namely Erek, frequently impart information onto the Animorphs. You could say that Erek doesn't know what they are going to do with this information, but come on. There hasn't been a single mission outside of simple reconnaissance that didn't end in violence of some kind. So either Erek is repeating some self-affirming mantra in his head like, "I do not know what they are going to do, I do not know what they are going to do," or he still considers violence an acceptable method as long as he is not the one doing it.

Any thoughts to add?

[Darth Zakryn]

You know, that confused me as well because we see in #26 that Erek has no qualms with NOT telling the Animorphs that, you know, the Howlers are CHILDREN who have NO IDEA that they are SLAUGHTERING INNOCENTS because they MURDERED HIS CREATORS. He knows there's a 99.97 percent likelihood that they are going to die instead of, say, having their minds wiped, and yet he stands idly by while doing nothing. To me, it felt like that went directly against his nonviolence programming since he's aiding in committing a direct act of revenge unless of course it's like you said, and he's repeating in his head "I don't know what's going to happen" but that seems unlikely. The ethical programming in Data's positronic net, at least, was MUCH more detailed.

[MoppingBear]

Exactly, its not an ethical thing.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the Pemalites put in the non violent restriction specifically because they knew of the dangerous potential.

[warren_bearclaw]

The Chee are capable of aggression, anger, and ill-will towards others, apparently, but not capable of acting on any of those emotions causing immediate harm. Humans are a very violent group quite often, as Ax mentions more than once, so it's impossible for the Chee to live in human society without allowing harm to happen. As someone said in the "Things I'm not allowed to do as an Animorph" thread, they aren't responsible for preventing harm... just not causing it. The Chee are sentient, and able to realize that pacifism isn't always the best answer, particularly after watching the entire population of Pemalites be destroyed in mass genocide. They are able to be angry (see #26), they are able to spy and aid others intent on harm (I don't believe the mantra stuff. They've lived with humans for thousands of years, and they would know better.), they can hinder others from coming to harm (he blocks the doorway several times from the Howlers in #26), and they can be forced to choose the lesser of two evils when their hand is forced. (see #54).

I want to make sure we understand the question... are we trying to find the limits and extent of the Chee programing?

[NateSean]

I want to make sure we understand the question... are we trying to find the limits and extent of the Chee programing?

It wasn't so much of a "lets find out" question as it was a "What does everyone else think" question.

[songofsuzanna]

Personally, I always wondered why the Chee were created to be incredibly strong but then had the "pacifist" thing engineered into them so they wouldn't be used as a weapon.  If the Pemalites just wanted friends and playmates, they didn't have to make them so strong.  It made no sense to me, unless I'm forgetting some part of the story.

[NateSean]

The Chee were probably expected to do some menial labor as well. Things the Pemalites couldn't do. If Pemalites were as strong as the average human being, for example. Chee may have been at least partially intended in much the same way the Replicants of Blade Runner.

It's just like the Hork-Bajir's blades. They weren't intended as weapons but as tools.

[songofsuzanna]

That makes sense.

Also, I think they would want to be pacifist because they can never forget.  They'd always remember those they hurt and kill as sharply and clearly as if they had just done it.

[Darth Zakryn]

They were made from denser alloys because the Pemalites' homeworld's gravity was said to be "four times stronger than Earth's" so naturally that would make them stronger as well. Why they're so FAST is another question... strength doesn't affect SPEED, so how in HELL did Erek get to the Pemalite ship maybe a few miles out to sea in LESS THAN TEN MINUTES? Especially while being UNDERWATER, which reduces speed...

[warren_bearclaw]

Well, stronger legs would be useful in running and swimming... And he did know exactly where he was going. Maybe he used a car and made it invisible so no one would stop him. I dunno about that last part... wild possibility.

Okay, so what do y'all think about the Chee's ability to scare or intimidate others? Could they project an image of Godzilla or something and scare everyone away, so long as they didn't harm them? And what about destruction? Are there any instances in the books where a Chee destroys something? In #26, he 'makes handholds in the doorway' for him to hold while blocking the Howlers, but what kind of limitations do you think the Chee would have on desctruction?

[Morilore]

To use a term I barely understand, it's clear that the non-violence "supergoal" does not consist of "minimize the likelihood of violent harm to any sentient creatures" but rather something like "minimize the likelihood of Chee activities causing violent harm to living creatures."  That's why, in the last book, Erek won't voluntarily join the Animorphs on the Pool ship; he can be coerced into participating by threatening a bystander, but he cannot be coerced into activating a powerful weapons system.  The goal is probabilistic, meaning that they can decide that it is "wrong" or "incomplete" if other goals conflict with it, up to a point.

The place I'm getting these trippy words: http://singinst.org/ourresearch/publications/CFAI/index.html

[warren_bearclaw]

Okay, I just read the other thread linked to in the first post here, and the posters there seem to think that the Chee could not harm any living thing. Was it any living thing, or sentient beings? Could they kill bugs? And what about plants? They had to do something with all of the dead organic matter (aka, food) that they used during their times as humans. And is all harm considered violence? I don't think so. Yeah, electrocuting Rachel musta hurt... a lot... but it helped her. It wasn't violent. Resetting a broken bone is painful, but no one would consider it violence.

Here's a section from book #10:

  "How long has this been going on?" Cassie
asked.
Erek smiled warmly. "I helped to build the great
pyramid."
  "You designed the pyramids?"
  "No, no, of course not. We have never interfered
in human affairs. I was a slave. I helped
to quarry the stone. It was a challenge, because I was
new at pretending to be human. I had to hide my
real strength, of course. The Pemalite home world
had a gravity four times stronger than Earth's.
Naturally, we were designed for that gravity, which
means we are quite powerful by human standards."
  "And you stayed as a slave?" Jake asked. "You
could have taken over Egypt. You could have taken over the
world."
  "No. We are not the Yeerks," he said
coldly. "You see, when our creators made us,
they hardwired us for nonviolence. We are
not capable of hurting another living being. No Chee
has ever taken a life."

Notice the bold portions. Obviously, the Chee have interfered to some degree, because hello, they were passing as humans. That in itself is interference. And there is a mention of them providing ideas and things to certain people throughout the series (such as helping Pasteur). And there is also the fact that they were spying on the Yeerks (a sentient species) to help the human race. But, they don't interfere. 

And also, what counts as 'harm' and what counts as a living 'being'? I think it is safe to assume that plants aren't included. Do bugs? Do rodents? Domesticated animals? Wild animals? Dictionary.com defines 'being' as "conscious, mortal existence" and also as "a living thing". Thanks to the insanity that is the English language, this isn't too helpful. Does anyone recall any instances of any Chee eating meat or swatting flies? And also, I think that this excerpt may be of interest:

  <How did you convince the Yeerks that you
are one of them?> Ax asked him.
  Erek turned off his hologram and became a
machine once again. And then the front of his head
split open. Inside his steel and ivory head was a
chamber, just a few inches in diameter.
  And inside that chamber was a gray slug,
helpless, unable to escape. Tiny wires, no
thicker than hairs, wrapped around it.
  <Yeerk!> Ax hissed.
  "Yes," Erek said. "The Yeerks
believe I am human. I accepted infestation. But
of course the Yeerk cannot make a Controller of me. I made a
place for him instead. He sees nothing. Knows
nothing. I tapped his memory, not the other way around. And now I can pass
among the Yeerks like one of them."

So apparently, they can definitely interfere (even if they claim not to, they aren't hardwired not to....... It's impossible to coexist with or even observe something without influencing it in some way.). And they can also be an inconvenience to other beings, to say the least. Erek was able to be a barricade when the Howlers were attacking. And also, he caused the Pemalite ship to expel everyone aboard it. But back to the issue of harm. Where do you think they draw the line there? I figure harm would be non-desirable or non-desired pain/discomfort/etc. Pulling a bandaid surely can't be against their programming if they are able to electrocute, perform CPR (not a gentle procedure) or reattach limbs, etc. Pain, in all its variations, can be beneficial, and their programming must somehow distinguish between hurt (helpful) and hurt (violence).

And here's a real puzzle: can the Chee cause chaos and destruction, so long as no one gets hurt? They can obviously deceive (see imprisoned Yeerk) and they can pick favorites (The Chee say they can't let the human race fall because dogs are 'intertwined' with them... favoritism). Also, it's impossible to live in human society without at some point inflicting some amount of emotional harm. Is there a line there? I imagine the Chee to be a generally peaceful (duh?) but they can argue/disagree (many Chee don't agree with Erek telling the Ani's about them.) and they can show anger (for example, at the Howlers, who are still a sentient species).

I hope my Weathel-worthy rant isn't too confusing or incomprehensible. Feedback, please?

[Chad32]

Well, obviously emotional harm isn't out. How do you thinkt hat Yeerk feels about spending years trapped somewhere, with no way to escape?

[warren_bearclaw]

Well, obviously emotional harm isn't out. How do you thinkt hat Yeerk feels about spending years trapped somewhere, with no way to escape?

Good point. I don't see that as being much worse than screaming at and berating someone, or even bullying (not that I really think they would, but I don't see them as programmed not to.).

[roguebluejay]

Does anyone recall any instances of any Chee eating meat or swatting flies?

Yeah, I am fairly confident that Eric eats a hamburger in one of the books. Marco mocks him for not having extra cheese or something, then explains the food is being incinerated.

The way I see it, the Chee are hard-wired for Non Violence. They cannot commit physical violence. They can do pretty much anything else, but they don't like to (it goes against the spirit of the programming, even if it doesn't contradict the letter of the programming.