Author Topic: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden  (Read 9902 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Terenia

  • Jr. Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 10125
  • Karma: 490
  • Gender: Female
  • Got it memorized?
Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« on: November 25, 2009, 09:20:02 AM »
Hey look guys, I still exist!!!  :waves: Sorry about the, um....several month delay. School has been crazy and I've had some family issues more recently. Although I think I may have been purposely putting off this particular book, because I know it's EVERYONE'S favorite. So, without further ado, I bring you....BUFFA-HUMAN

Summary
The Yeerks have discovered and repaired a damaged Helmacron ship. They know of its morph-seeking capabilities, and they plan to use the ship to capture the "Andalite bandits." And to find Elfangor's blue cube. The one that gave the kids the ability to morph.

Cassie, the other Animorphs, and Ax are in a pretty bad situation because they can't leave the cube in one place, they can't morph without being discovered, and they have to keep moving. It looks like this may be a battle the Visser can't lose...

Questions
1) Okay, we all know that the buffalo and the ant acquiring the ability to morph defies all logic in relation to the morphing cube. So, here's my challenge. Can you create a scenario in which these two non-sentient animals becoming morph capable is logical and actually fits within the rules of the series? Good luck!

2) What do you think of the Yeerks idea to use the Helmacron ship?

3) Okay, putting aside the impossible, Cassie does bring up an interesting point about the buffa-human. When it is capable of morphing a human (Chapman, ew) is it also capable of crossing the line of sentience? It is obviously able to learn, but it is able to think cognitively? At what point does the creature stop being just a buffalo and become a sentient being?

4) Going off of the previous question, at what point does killing the buffa-human stop being a human killing an animal and become murder?

5) If the Yeerks hadn't taken the decision out of Cassie's hands, what should the Ani's have done with the Buffa-human?


That's all I got folks. Next week (no, really. I promise....) #40: The Other

Best Fanfiction Author 2008
Best Roleplay Writer 2009
RAFian Artist of the Year 2010
Best Roleplay Writer 2011
Best Roleplay Writer 2013

Offline Chad32

  • God
  • ********
  • Posts: 11951
  • Karma: 195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2009, 10:04:15 AM »
Welcome back Terenia. Wow, we're still doing this? I had forgotten about it. Yeha, I call massive discontinuity on the Buffa-Human. Before this, it has been established that you need a morph capable person to give morphing power to another individual. You also need to concentrate on an individual to acquire and morph. All that is thrown out the window, and I can't think of an answer for #1.

2) I guess it's a pretty good idea, though it's kind of a retreading of MM1.

3) That's an interesting question. I don't think it was ever really Human because it never became a nothlit. That's like saying it's ok for david to kill the anis when in morph because they are less Human that way.

4) I don't think it's ever murder, though killing him when he's in Human morph would look bad to people who don't know the facts.

5) do what the others were trying to get Cassie to do already: Kill it. Though I would prefer they do it more humanely than luring it off the edge of a cliff.


Ani-Master 2014!

Offline Elfangor Sirinial Shamtul

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • Karma: 3
  • Gender: Female
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 10:19:24 AM »
hmmmmmmmmmm I dont think i read that one yet, but i am excited to!
There are many dangers for an Andalite in human morph. For one thing, there is the constant danger that you will fall off your two legs. The slightest push and you can topple over. But worst by far, is the danger of taste. Taste is the sense that can drive an Andalite mad! Especially is it involves cinnimon buns or chocolate.
From the earth diary of Aximili Esgarrouth Itsthil

Offline Terenia

  • Jr. Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 10125
  • Karma: 490
  • Gender: Female
  • Got it memorized?
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 10:30:04 AM »
3) That's an interesting question. I don't think it was ever really Human because it never became a nothlit. That's like saying it's ok for david to kill the anis when in morph because they are less Human that way.

So do you think if the buffa-human had become a nothlit it could become human? Theoretically?

Best Fanfiction Author 2008
Best Roleplay Writer 2009
RAFian Artist of the Year 2010
Best Roleplay Writer 2011
Best Roleplay Writer 2013

Offline Chad32

  • God
  • ********
  • Posts: 11951
  • Karma: 195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 11:43:52 AM »
I think that if it became Human permanently, and took up a Human lifestyle, then it should be considered Human. Just like I consider Tobias a Hawk. does that make sense? Tobias is genetically and psychologically a Hawk. Now he could change that and become Human once more, but after three years of living as a Hawk, that's how I see him.

Now the Buffallo could become Human, but unless he takes up the lifestyle of a human he's just a Buffallo that can morph a Human.


Ani-Master 2014!

Offline dolphin4077

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: 15
  • Gender: Female
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 12:46:00 PM »
1.  I'll have to come back to this one because I don't have time to put the effort needed into answering that.
2.  It was a good yeerk plan but bad storytelling.  I agree that it was way too much like MM1.  However, it seems like since book #35 there has been a lot of recycled plots.  35: weird morphing side affect like #12, 36: the Pemalite ship #27, #37 going to kill V3 while he feeds #8, 38 Andalite traitors and stopping the Yeerks via biological weapons #18 and HBC.  However, I think 39 is the most obvious; it's like there's not even an effort to make it different. 
 
4.  If I'm recalling my criminal law class correctly, it becomes murder when there is malicious aforethought.  Ask me after I get through finals to explain what the heck that means.

5.  The only thing I could think of that wouldn't involve killing it would be to hand it over to the Chee or the free Hork-Bajir to look after.

Offline RYTX

  • Shadow and Flame
  • Xtreme Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 4877
  • Karma: 140
  • Gender: Male
  • Pretend I said something clever
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 03:53:20 PM »
3-4)A buffalo is a buffalo and shall always be. I never considered someone to be there morph in more than just body, including nothlits. Now as far as I'm concerned, you can still murder a buffalo, (murder, imo, is killing with malice intent; and applies to anything you kill with manevolence in mind) but in this case, you are never murdering a human.
5)Kill it, not saying it'd be easy, but you got to do what you gotta do, I wouldn't trust putting it under lock and key, plus that would just keep the ethical concerns coming. Just be done with it.
Other) My problem with this whole thing was it was far to easy for everything to start morphing, they just touched it and then they had the power (Massive KASU in my eyes, david held onto that thing for a while, and I'm sure it thought about it, but the effect didn't come till Ax was instructing him) Dis tasteful to me
Something, something, oh crap I pissed everyone off again....

Offline anijen21

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
  • Karma: 49
  • Gender: Female
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 04:42:25 PM »
1) Okay, we all know that the buffalo and the ant acquiring the ability to morph defies all logic in relation to the morphing cube. So, here's my challenge. Can you create a scenario in which these two non-sentient animals becoming morph capable is logical and actually fits within the rules of the series? Good luck!
The only thing I can think of is maybe, somehow, the Yeerks get their hands on the morphing technology, or alter the Anti-Morphing ray to like, temporarily grant morphing ability to their soldiers. But instead of testing it on viable hosts like Hork-Bajir or Taxxons or humans, they test it on lab rats. Literal lab rats, I mean. But then they'd be in control of when the rats morph or not, sending a remote signal to initiate the morph and demorph. I really don't think there's a way for the animals to control the ability. While I don't agree with Chad that a morph-capable person needs to deliver the ability, there DEFINITELY is a degree of concentration required to morph, and it would take a reasonable intelligent species to be trained for a long time to do that. They wouldn't even give the morphing power to the Hork-Bajir because they were too dumbbb, I really don't think a frigging ant would be capable of it on its own.

2) What do you think of the Yeerks idea to use the Helmacron ship?
I really didn't understand all this. The ship can track morphing energy. The book does nothing to distinguish between morphing radiation energy given off by the cube, and residual morphing energy given off when the Ani's morph. That seems like two different things to me, and if they really could track all of it, they would have figured out pretty fast that the residual energy spikes and disappears pretty quickly but the radiative energy is constant, so they would have found the cube basically instantaneously. It also makes me think about the Veleek--what kind of morphing energy could it detect? Only the residual kind? Because if there is no distinction, which this book seems to indicate, Visser Three could have found the Escafil Device in the first Megamorphs book, since it wasn't hidden particularly well. UNLESS THE ELLIMIST JUST HID IT FOR A WHILE but I hate that explanation A WIZARD DOES NOT ALWAYS DO IT, OKAY?

3) Okay, putting aside the impossible, Cassie does bring up an interesting point about the buffa-human. When it is capable of morphing a human (Chapman, ew) is it also capable of crossing the line of sentience? It is obviously able to learn, but it is able to think cognitively? At what point does the creature stop being just a buffalo and become a sentient being?
I'll admit this mystery does intrigue me, but the book does nothing to explore it. Let's say you take a full grown animal--any animal, though for control purposes you may want to pick kind of a spectrum of sentience, like maybe a gorilla, a dolphin, a dog, a snake, and then like a fly. You give them the ability to morph and make them all morph into the same newborn human infant. How would that individual mature? Would their experiences as their respective wild animals keep them from cracking into human sapience, or, if they were raised as a normal human, would they develop as a normal human? Even more interesting would be to take a newborn of each of those animals, before they develop any memories or experiences. Would a newborn puppy morphed into a newborn baby still have puppy traits at all? Idk. This book may have presented the most interesting aspects of the morphing technology in the whole series, but all it did was offer Cassie another opportunity to whine a lot about really retarded *moral* issues (yes, Cassie, you have to kill the buffalo. Get over it. It's a war.)

4) Going off of the previous question, at what point does killing the buffa-human stop being a human killing an animal and become murder?
Like I said before, there is a point, but I just don't know what it is. I really don't think what they did in the book was wrong. It was a mistake, a huge liability, and whatever that thing was clearly wasn't human. But that doesn't mean it didn't have the capability to learn. That doesn't mean that, with enough time and patience, it could feel emotions and be able to express them through language. Though I'm pretty much of the belief that sapience is a much more universal thing than we give it credit for. Just because we don't understand the way different animals express their emotions and intelligence doesn't mean that it's not there. Koko could even speak a little English. That still freaks me out tbh.

5) If the Yeerks hadn't taken the decision out of Cassie's hands, what should the Ani's have done with the Buffa-human?
She didn't kill the buffa-human but she sure as sheet killed the ant-Cassie. Which, to me, pretty much voided any moral superiority she had about the whole thing. As soon as Ax or Tobias said "we can't let it survive because it saw us morph," that was it. That logic very nearly applied to human collateral as well.
I go off topic on purpose.

Offline Gafrash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Karma: 31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2009, 02:10:39 AM »
Hey, Terenia. I kinda missed these re-reads. Good to see ya back!

1) Okay, we all know that the buffalo and the ant acquiring the ability to morph defies all logic in relation to the morphing cube. So, here's my challenge. Can you create a scenario in which these two non-sentient animals becoming morph capable is logical and actually fits within the rules of the series? Good luck!
This is one of the biggest inconsistencies in the book series, and it can be attributed to the work of the Ghostwriter of this particular story. It's as if the writer was c-o-m-p-l-e-t-e-l-y oblivious to all the morphing rules in the book.

1 - The agent that is required to ignite the Escafil device to transfer the morphing technology.
2 - The amount of contact for the total transfer. It's NOT AS SIMPLE AS rubbing one of the blue faces in the cube.
3 - The acquiring process. Relatively simple, but the intent behind acquiring a subject requires the intelligence to do so.
4 - The amount of concentration to start and maintain the morphing process.
5 - The ability to the limitted telepathy that is thought-speech. Think this was also ignored in the non-sentient subjects.

I can't actually come up with any explanations for these to work with the previous morphing details. AND WE REALLY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO. Just overlook the lack of the ghostwriter's attention to detail and take this story for the filler that it is.

2) What do you think of the Yeerks idea to use the Helmacron ship?
We know that the Helmacrons charge their tec through the use of Morphing Energy. That's how they were able to find it in the previous Helmacron-stunt. But how the heck did the Yeerks get a hold of the Helmacron ship?! Was this done in outer space? Also, I find it hard to picture the Helmacrons collaborating.

I really didn't understand all this. The ship can track morphing energy. The book does nothing to distinguish between morphing radiation energy given off by the cube, and residual morphing energy given off when the Ani's morph. That seems like two different things to me, and if they really could track all of it, they would have figured out pretty fast that the residual energy spikes and disappears pretty quickly but the radiative energy is constant, so they would have found the cube basically instantaneously...
Totally. This is a good point. In the previous Helmacron story, the Helmacrons were able to detect the source but not the morphed energy. The Veleek kind of did the latter. But this story discombulates the whole thing.


...It also makes me think about the Veleek--what kind of morphing energy could it detect? Only the residual kind? Because if there is no distinction, which this book seems to indicate, Visser Three could have found the Escafil Device in the first Megamorphs book, since it wasn't hidden particularly well...
Also the ending sequence where Cassie tries the anvil stunt. I mean, where was the author's creativity in this book?!?!


...2.  It was a good yeerk plan but bad storytelling.  I agree that it was way too much like MM1.  However, it seems like since book #35 there has been a lot of recycled plots.  35: weird morphing side affect like #12, 36: the Pemalite ship #27, #37 going to kill V3 while he feeds #8, 38 Andalite traitors and stopping the Yeerks via biological weapons #18 and HBC.  However, I think 39 is the most obvious; it's like there's not even an effort to make it different....
Agree with ya.


3) Okay, putting aside the impossible, Cassie does bring up an interesting point about the buffa-human. When it is capable of morphing a human (Chapman, ew) is it also capable of crossing the line of sentience? It is obviously able to learn, but it is able to think cognitively? At what point does the creature stop being just a buffalo and become a sentient being?
Jeez, this is a hard one. The buffa-human definitely challenged everyone's concept of sentience.
We can't forget that this is a vice-versa process. The non-sentient creature is the one doing a sentient-morph.
I think the most important question to ponder here is, does its sentience come enconded in the human DNA?! The fact that a non-sentient animal 'comes upon' morphing a sentient animal, doesn't necessarily mean that it's human. The Andalites and the Anis (all sentient beings) were able to retain their human sentience during morph, even when morphing other sentient creatures. It is not the case with the buffalo or the ant. They wouldn't be 'mentally equipped' to the sentient morph, me thinks.



3) That's an interesting question. I don't think it was ever really Human because it never became a nothlit. That's like saying it's ok for david to kill the anis when in morph because they are less Human that way.
So do you think if the buffa-human had become a nothlit it could become human? Theoretically?
See, you gotta revert the human mind to its raw state, like Ax probably described early in the series.
Given time, the human-nothlit buffalo could have learnt how to be a human, IN THEORY. But could a buffalo know what to do with human limbs, senses, inferior physical prowess, etc... The story showed Cassie TEACHING it to do small stuff. Left to his own devices  in a human morph, without any directions to human concepts and lifestyles, I think we would find a clone of Chapman grazing and grunting naked somewhere.


4) Going off of the previous question, at what point does killing the buffa-human stop being a human killing an animal and become murder?
I think the buffalo was a buffalo, inspite of the human morph. Whatever way you apply the killing factor, it doesn't change the fact that that creature was a non-sentient being. 


5) If the Yeerks hadn't taken the decision out of Cassie's hands, what should the Ani's have done with the Buffa-human?
Well, the most sensible thing would be to put it down humanely. There was a high risk the cloned-body of Chapman would turn into a nothlit and the Anis COULD NOT have the Yeerks get a hold of him. Cassie had the means to do it, and I believe she would have, had she had the time and circumstances.


PS: I may be tripping here, but didn't this buffalo also acquire Alloran at that point?!

...She didn't kill the buffa-human but she sure as sheet killed the ant-Cassie. Which, to me, pretty much voided any moral superiority she had about the whole thing. As soon as Ax or Tobias said "we can't let it survive because it saw us morph," that was it. That logic very nearly applied to human collateral as well.
Yeah, and this bit did feel cheap to me, too. Really making Cassie come off as the biggest hypocrite in the story, as she simply let the Yeerks pulverize the animal. Not like Cassie. Not cool, at all.

Offline anijen21

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
  • Karma: 49
  • Gender: Female
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2009, 11:07:55 AM »
1 - The agent that is required to ignite the Escafil device to transfer the morphing technology.

Yeha, I call massive discontinuity on the Buffa-Human. Before this, it has been established that you need a morph capable person to give morphing power to another individual.

Was that ever really established, though? I mean Elfangor was holding the cube when the Ani's got the power, and Ax was holding it when David got the power, but I always thought that was due more to aesthetic than necessity. Where are you guys getting that from? I'm not trying to be condescending, I really am curious because I never read it that way before.
I go off topic on purpose.

Offline Chad32

  • God
  • ********
  • Posts: 11951
  • Karma: 195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2009, 12:08:13 PM »
We believe those two points are what establishes that you need something like that. The only thing that contradicts this is 39 as far as I can recall, and that was a weird book written by someone not named KA Applegate.

Otherwise David would have already gotten the power because he had been handling it for days, so it wouldn't have given him the power twice over when Ax did it.

Plus if 39 is believed, and it doesn't take nearly as much concentration to acquire something as previously thought, just think of all the people the anis accidentally acquired through casual contact. what with our habit of shaking hands as a way of introduction and such.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 12:09:50 PM by Chad28 »


Ani-Master 2014!

Offline Terenia

  • Jr. Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 10125
  • Karma: 490
  • Gender: Female
  • Got it memorized?
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2009, 01:41:49 PM »
I don't think it's so much that you need the morphing power to transfer the power. Otherwise how did the first Andalite get the power to begin with? I think that Ax and Elfangor both handled the device because they were Andalites and, therefore knew how to work the technology properly. I assume that the device works through thought-speak commands as it doesn't seem to have controls, or at least some sort of psychic link. It just makes sense that an Andalite would deliver the power, then.

Of course later on with the Auxilaries Ax may teach the others how to use the device, but as in #20 it's just been found it's probably easier to just let Ax work the advanced technology.

Best Fanfiction Author 2008
Best Roleplay Writer 2009
RAFian Artist of the Year 2010
Best Roleplay Writer 2011
Best Roleplay Writer 2013

Offline Chad32

  • God
  • ********
  • Posts: 11951
  • Karma: 195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2009, 05:15:31 PM »
The first Andalite probably used a machine that worked differently than the cube. I mena, wouldn't that be the ultimate safety feature for such a thing? Except that Alloran was captured five years into the war. Until alloran was captured, even if the Yeerks got the box they wouldn't be able to use it.


Ani-Master 2014!

Offline RYTX

  • Shadow and Flame
  • Xtreme Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 4877
  • Karma: 140
  • Gender: Male
  • Pretend I said something clever
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2009, 07:26:15 PM »
No offensive, but I find that totally ludicris; the device would be a danger if it fell into enemy hands with or without a morph capable enemy because, well, then it would make them morph capable. Scientist typically aren't thinking secruity risk, they want it to work and then they'll worry about accidents.
Plus for people like aldrea who got the ability in secert; I don't think they went up to the friends mom and said I need you to hold this for me while I turn work it.
I think it would have to be willfully turned on, but you can't need someone else for it
Something, something, oh crap I pissed everyone off again....

Offline Chad32

  • God
  • ********
  • Posts: 11951
  • Karma: 195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Group Re-Read: #39 The Hidden
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2009, 07:49:16 PM »
If you have a device that can only grant morphing ability to those with the help of a morph capable person, then how are the enemies going to get the morphing power without an Andalite controller. of course this becomes mute later.

Then again, I could just be wrong. The inventors probably didn't have the war in mind at all when they made the thing, becuase the war and the invention of the device are two different things that just happen at around the same time.


Ani-Master 2014!