Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: TobiasMasonPark on December 17, 2010, 10:20:00 PM
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We all know that Tobias had an unhappy life, and that he found an escape as a red-tailed hawk. We also know that, despite his desire for freedom, he was disturbed by his being trapped in morph; the eternal struggle involved in overcomming the hawk's instincts, the disgust he felt after making his first kill, etc. And, of course, we know that Tobias eventually becomes comfortable with his life as a hawk, and even starts to consider himself as being more hawk than human (let's not even start with the whole Andalite thing).
Now, here's a question that has probably surfaced on this board already: did Tobias willingly trap himself as a hawk, or was it an accident?
This is one of those, "maybe he did, maybe he didn't", pure speculation sort of questions, where Animorph fans of all shapes and sizes debate over Tobias' ultimate decision. And there are sound arguments for both sides.
You could look to such examples as the Encounter and the Change--the first two books narrated by Tobias-- and say that he "accidentally" trapped himself in morph. We notice in book one that Tobias has little interest in keeping track of time when in hawk morph, but he also tries to kill himself in the third book, and is greatly disturbed when the Ellimist "tricks" him in book thirteen. And he constantly refers to himself as being jealous of his friends being able to lead normal lives, and their abilities to morph.
You could also look to the later books, where Tobias becomes more comfortable with his new life as a hawk. You could say that Tobias was so unhappy with his life that he preferred the life of an animal to his own life. The whole argument raised in the first book would support the theory that Tobias purposely trapped himself in morph to escape. Tobias never gives us his recount of the first invasion of the Yeerk Pool, so we don't really know whether or not he just lost track of time. And it's also made very clear early on in the books that Rachel was Tobias' only link to humanity. After Rachel died, Tobias completely succumbed to the life of a red-tailed hawk.
But there's that nagging exchange between Ellimist and Tobias in the thirteenth book. It's implied that Tobias only wanted his morphing powers back, and the ability to morph back to his human body for two hours at a time. It's implied that Tobias was keeping this little fact hidden from himself, based on the Ellimist's response. And, based on the events of this book, we're to assume that Tobias trapped himself intentionally.
I think that Tobias did trap himself intentionally, but he didn't exactly know what he was bargaining for. Sure, the allure of trapping oneself as a hawk--being able to fly and the freedom that comes with flying--sounds appealing enough, but Tobias obviously didn't consider the fact that he'd have to LIVE as a bird permanently. He would only spend two hours in a hawk body at any given time before being trapped, so the hawk's instincts were pretty easy to overcome, theoretically. He was so unhappy with his life that he sort of took things like going to school, eating,and human contact for granted.
But that's just one person's opinion. What do you people think?
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I'm firmly of the belief that Tobias did it on purpose. Two critical bits of evidence point me to this conclusion.
Point 1: Book 1.
Are we seriously meant to believe that an elephant, a tiger, a gorilla, and a horse were all able to escape the Yeerk pool, yet a hawk could not sneak out amid the chaos without being seen? Sorry, not buying it. I think, if he really wanted to get out, he could have easily. Maybe he couldn't make up his mind about it until the chaos had subsided, and by then it was too late. But it seems to me that he only wanted to use the Yeerk pool as an excuse to be trapped.
Point 2: Book 13.
As you already pointed out, in Tobias's exchange with the Ellimist, the Ellimist asked him if he knew what he wanted, and, if he got it, would he still know? This seems to imply that the Ellimist actually did give Tobias what he wanted, even if Tobias himself wasn't consciously aware of it at the time. In other words, Tobias wanted to be a hawk.
But that's just my personal opinion. You're absolutely right, that there is plenty of evidence on both sides of the argument.
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I like to think that he considered it, and did it on purpose. However, he didn't really think everything through. He began to regret it after the fact, and it all sank in by the time the third book rolled around. hence why he had the panic attack, and wanted to kill himself. Some people say he's all wangsty in that book, but it's still realistic. The full consequences of his actions didn't really hit him until then.
Personally I believe it would have been better for Tobias to live as a hawk than a homeless kid on the street. People would have started asking questions, and God forbid his uncle actually found him. That's why the Ellemist did what he did.
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I always thought it was pretty evident he did it on purpose, even if it was somewhat an unconscious decision at the time.
Plus here's a "deleted" scene from book 50 that I saw once:
[spoiler]The blind red-haired girl who had been observed on infrared camera talking to Jake and Rachel had escaped. Before the Yeerks could come back for her, she'd simply walked out of the facility in Rachel morph.
Jake had sent Tobias to look for her. He'd spotted her from the air and brought down a sparrow -- live -- for her to acquire. Then he led her back to the camp. They were waiting for us when we returned.
Her name was Elena. She'd stay with Marco's parents.
Elena's sight had not been restored. And she was in some pretty major shock. But she'd shown a lot of guts and a lot of resourcefulness.
Her parents lived out of town and only visited on weekends. How the school would explain her absence, we didn't know. It was something we'd have to worry about later.
And the original six of us?
I couldn't explain. Because I didn't understand it myself. All I knew was that at the time, it had seemed so clear. Letting Tom take the morphing cube had seemed absolutely the right thing to do.
But now, I didn't know why. I couldn't explain what I'd done because it wouldn't make logical sense. So I lied.
"I was afraid, Jake. I was scared he'd shoot me."
Jake looked at me with disgust. Like he knew I was lying, but couldn't figure out why.
I felt depressed and heartsick.
I'd made a decision. And the decision I'd made had changed the dynamics of the war forever.
Decision!
I'd acted on an impulse. A stupid, emotional, naive and sentimental impulse.
I'd wanted to protect Jake. And the result was that I'd put millions of people's lives in jeopardy. And made Jake hate and distrust me.
Jake walked away from me.
It seemed like I was seeing a lot of Jake's back lately.
I heard the rustle of feathers and Tobias landed on a nearby branch.
<Relationships are hard,> he said quietly. <I don't know how humans bear it.>
It took a moment before the significance of his words sank in.
Tobias no longer considered himself human.
That's when I knew. Knew for certain that Tobias had deliberately trapped himself in morph.
The life of a human had been too painful for Tobias. So he'd decided to leave it behind.
Why? What was wrong with us. As a race? As a species?
Why, with all our gifts and our resources and our intellect -- why couldn't we figure out how to make life wonderful for each other?
Why were there rehab centers and clinics and hospitals full of ignored and neglected kids and adults? People who were just as brave and strong and willing to contribute as anybody else.
Why did people spend so much time trying to hurt each other and so little time trying to help each other?
Why did people spend so much time trying to take things away from each other instead of giving?
If the Yeerks won, would life on this planet really be that different?
Jake interrupted us. His voice was cold, his tone icy.
"Tobias. I need you. There's something we have to do. Just you and me. Nobody else."
Jake and Tobias left the camp. Jake as falcon, Tobias as hawk.
I followed them anyway.
I followed Jake and Tobias through the dark night.
They went to the rehab center, as I knew they would. Slipped through James's open window.
About a half hour later, they flew back out and winged toward the camp.
I sat in a tree, watching the rehab center. Waiting. Hoping.
Twenty minutes later, two red-tailed hawks came flying out the window, their wings beating the air. One leading the other.
Jake had not forgotten his promise.
Silhouetted against the moon, James and Pedro stretched out their wings and soared up up up. And disappeared into the clouds.
James would see to it that they were back in their beds before they were missed.
He was a leader.
He was responsible.
He was focussed.
But he was still human.
And he was still humane.
Like Jake.
And like me.
[/spoiler]
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Yeah, there was that. I believe it was deleted because it created a plot hole where they still had the box to give Pedro the morphing ability.
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I like that that scene tied up some loose ends (Elena and Pedro), but seriously, I love #50 but the single-sentence paragraphs at the end of the book are frigging horrible.
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For some reason, it never occurred to me that he trapped himself on purpose. I just kind of rolled with the idea that it was an accident. But as I think about it, it makes perfect sense that he did it on purpose without having thought it all the way through. And I think if he were to ever have chosen to go home and stay that way, he would have to choose to stop running, or "flying", away. Even though Tobias seemed really strong in terms of giving advice, he was horrible in following that advice himself.
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As I recall, Tobias morphed to hawk way too soon in #1, and Jake yelled at him for it. I don't think you can slap the label "on purpose" or "accidental" on something like this. Tobias made a number of choices deliberately, and sometimes, at crucial moments, the momentum of the choices you've made up to that point carry you over a precipice without you really having much control. The idea that he trapped himself on purpose didn't come up in the series until much later, and I think it figured most prominently in The One Where Taylor Returns, which was all about Tobias's mind being messed up.
Now, as for #13: the interpretation that seems most elegant to me is that the Ellimist sensed that what Tobias wanted most of all was a choice. Having a choice is the opposite of being trapped.
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Interesting point.
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Come to think of it, this thought struck me too, but only for a second. I always thought, "Hey, couldn't he just have morphed in the rocks on top of the ceiling?"
I think he probably did, surly there was somewhere he could have morphed and re-morphed safely?
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I kind of always thought that the space he hid in was the right size for a hawk, but too small for a human. So even if he wanted to, he might not have been able to.
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Ax has shown a lot of disdain for nothlits in the series--with the exception to Tobias, though that was only because Tobias is his shorm. But I was wondering if nothlits were really something to be pitied at all.
Sure, Tobias had some issues with his being trapped in morph, but it is debatable that he intentionally trapped himself in morph.
David doesn't really count, since he had no say in his becomming a nothlit.
Aldrea intentionally trapped herself for her own reasons. And Arbron found purpose after being trapped as a Taxxon.
And I imagine that there are a lot of people who feel uncomfortable in their own skins. If one of these people were to acquire the Escafil Device and become able to morph as a way to escape--like Tobias, Aldrea or any of the Auxiliary Animorphs-- I think they would probably intentionally trap themselves in a more preferable form; as opposed to living out an existence they're uncomfortable with.
Now I'm not talking about some skinny runt who acquires a sufer dude chick magnet to attract some ladies that he would never get in his own body. I'm thinking about people like the disabled, homosexuals/transexuals, etc. In this case, you cant pity someone for wanting to live as a bird, or a lion, or a member of the opposite sex.
But the point of this thread is to list the pros and cons of Tobias' situation; and maybe nothlitism in general.
I'll post the first one: He can morph/demorph in public without owrrying about a Controller discovering his identity.
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A definite pro would be he's able to fly.
I guess a con would be that he can't make facial expressions...
Sorry. I'm bad at this.
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Pro: He doesn't have to worry about money, work or school.
Con: He can't have a real relationship with another human being.
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Pro: When his hawk body gets to old, he can chose to morph into any other species (even another, younger red-tail if he so chooses) and become trapped again.
Con: Back to square one and the Ellemist all ready bailed him out once because he was needed.
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Pro: He doesn't have to worry about becoming a controller, and thus exposing his friends to the Yeerks.
Con: Always possibility that another Hawk will come and attempt to steal his territory.
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Pro: He doesn't have to worry about lunch money.
Con: His lunch consists of mostly rats and mice.
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Pro: I'd say the level of freedom. He can go anywhere a hawk could survive, and he can see anything a hawk can see which means he probably saw amazing sights from a fairly unique perspective.
Con: The danger, no longer being on the top of the food chain, having to be on constant lookout for attacks from bigger hawks or eagles, owls and what have you. He was always fighting the yeerks and natural predators, sometimes both.
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Pros: He was happy as a red-tailed hawk and really came to peace to live that he was BOTH human and hawk(in his mind).
Cons: Not able to have a relationship with Rachel.(Personally I'd be happy to be trapped as a red-tailed hawk and never see any Cons but that is just me...)
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I kind of always thought that the space he hid in was the right size for a hawk, but too small for a human. So even if he wanted to, he might not have been able to.
I kindof agree this this.
Either way you could tell he was happy as a hawk so if he trapped himself on purpose or not is only known by Tobias and K. A. Applegate.And the red-tailed hawk body did always seem to fit Tobias for me so I figure right off when I read it for the first time,that he would trap himself in that form.
So I think that he...did trap himself and would mention his old life and that because he was missing it now and then,but he wanted to put that behind him and live as a real hawk as best he could.
Either way in the end,I will always like the chracter known as Tobias. 8)
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Topics merged.
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I also wondered if he trapped himself as a hawk on purpose or if it really had been an accident. At first I thought that it was an accident but in the later books I thought he did it on purpose, but there are some points that makes me think It must have been an accident because he had no reason to do this on purpose that time:
Sure, his live was horrible and he hated it, but why should he trap himself at the moment when he finally found something worth fighting for? In book one he stated:
"Suddenly the wimp is a hero," Marco sneered.
This time Tobias didn't blush. "Maybe I just found something worth fighting for, Marco."
"You don't even fight for yourself," Marco said.
"That was before," Tobias said softly. "Before the Andalite. Before he died trying to save us.
I can't let that go. I can't let him die for nothing. So whatever you guys decide, I'm going to
fight."
He must have known that he couldn't fight like the others if he is trapped in the body of a bird, and he really wanted to fight, so trapping himself would make no sense.
And an other point is, that after they were on the construction site he made friends for the first time. Rachel made it clear, that she cared for him and and I think the others wouldn't let him down after what happend at that evening.
So for the first time he had people who cared for him and a reason to fight, so why should he trapped himself at the point his live was getting better?
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I still think it was on purpose. His life always sucked alot, and bird is a perfect way to forget it Yeah, he did want to fight, but maybe he did think up the possibility of being helpful as a hawk. And maybe when the other decided to join too, he felt that a hawk is goo enough.
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See, the thing is, I don't think it was a conscious decision at all. I don't think Tobias rationally thought, "well, my life sucks, I want to live as a hawk, but on the other hand, my life is getting better and maybe I shouldn't, oh what the heck I'll do it." I think it was a sort of mixture between an accident and a decision. I definitely don't buy that it was completely an accident (for reasons I've stated a long time ago in this very thread, incidentally). But I don't think it was completely a decision, either. Tobias seemed to truly believe that he still wanted to be human, right up until book #13.
What most likely happened was that some subconscious urge to abandon his human life and stay a hawk made him hesitate, even when he consciously knew he should be trying to escape. Does anybody know that feeling? It's like forgetting to get gas on the day you're supposed to go to the dentist. Consciously, you aren't actually thinking "well, how can I give myself an excuse to be trapped away from something I don't like?" yes that sentence was intended to have a double meaning But at the same time you probably wouldn't have made that mistake if you didn't subconsciously know that you would benefit from it.
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I always thought that it was a subconscious decision. I think deep down he wanted to, but I don't know that he definitively decided that he wanted to be trapped.
If it was an actual, conscious decision, I don't think he would have done it. All of the things he had his freak out about in book 3 would have been on his mind as he decided, and I think he would have at least waited a little longer to become a hawk, or waited until his situation got massively worse.
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I like to think that he did it as an act of escapism as well.
Sure, there's still the war and the danger and all that, but most of the human concerns and problems he had no longer matter.
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But at the same time you probably wouldn't have made that mistake if you didn't subconsciously know that you would benefit from it.
Not if it wasn't a mistake. I mean if he really was trapped in a cave which had the size for a hawk but was to small for him to morph back to his human body he maybe really had no other choice then wait. I don't want to say, that I think it was like that, but it could really have been like that. Than he wouldn't have made any choice, neither a conscious nor a subconscious one.
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I think he trapped himself on purpose. In "the Test" when he faced Taylor again, we had this monologue:
Was I different, or was I just like her? I'd trapped myself. Why? I hated Taylor because she knew. I was going to destroy her. I don't think Tobias is weak, despite his doubts but he did trap himself on purpose probably to free himself from his nightmarish human life
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yeah, also he said:
An hour and fifty minutes? An hour and fifty-five?
How long?!
The others had escaped already. The other Animorphs, I mean. They'd dodged the visser's fireball gauntlet. They'd slipped out to safety, back through the janitor's closet, back into the school. Rachel, Cassie, Marco, Jake.
Had I missed the deadline? Had I been more than two hours in morph?
Couldn't have. Can't have. No. I'd be trapped forever. A bird.
Independent, free, alone.
Forever.
The free part makes me think that it was on purpose.
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But the Yeerk Pool is HUGE! You're telling me Tobias couldn't have flown behind one of those buildings that are apparently down there, demorphed, and remorphed? No. I think he did it purposely.
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Yeah, but the yeerk pool was being expanded throughout the entire series. It's possible it wasn't big enough at the time.
Hmmm
Pros: Knowing more than any living human about thermals
Cons: Annoying your friends by explaining thermals over and over again
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^Oh man, the thermals. And the superior eye sight.
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I believe that it was all an accident. in most of the first half of the series, thats what he syays. and what everyone else says. and I believe him. I think that once he adapted to his new life somewhat, it allowed applegate to add this doubt. as he was in the bigenning of the series, I don not think he would trap himself.
and, in book 43, he looks DOWN and sees the place where he was trapped. not up. he wasn't way off the the side or up on a rafter, I think he was actually between some boxes a few feet from the pools edge or something. it is reasonable to say that there are places to be trapped in the pool complex, even when you're that small.
of course, some things he says might be considered admitting to the fact that he did it on purpose, but I don't think that even THAT means it was. he was under pressure, he had heard the same story for a while, he could have been starting to accept something that wasn't true in the first place. he had time to think over those dozens of books. time to get it wrong. what he thought at the moment of the event, what he told others, is what he really thought, and what he really meant to say. and when he talks, I listen.
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Yes, but he was already losing himself in the ability to fly earlier in the book. He refused to take any other battle morphs because he was fixated on the hawk. Then he clinched it for himself by morphing before the entire team was even at the meeting point to go into the pool in the first place.
Of course he says it was an accident. Just like people who survive suicide attempts always say that they regretted doing it after they jumped. Of course you believe them, but it doesn't change the result for the people who succeed. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and in Tobias' case, he didn't have to become a nothlit to escape his aunt and uncle, or his situation at school.
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It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and in Tobias' case, he didn't have to become a nothlit to escape his aunt and uncle, or his situation at school.
I would like to hear your better solution to that problem instead of nothliting. I don't think living in forest like Ax later would have been good idea for him.
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He could have run. He could have told the school counselor how he was being treated at home. He could have been honest with Chapman about who was bullying him. It'd be one thing if the school wasn't making any attempt to help Tobias. But they were actually asking him and trying to help him and he was choosing not to say anything. Those are just the non-morphing solutions.
He could have started morphing and messing with them from a distance. Screw with the bullies, screw with his aunt and uncle. He had no problem attacking a bully as a hawk when they were messing with Eric, why not using his morphing ability to mess with people. He had the ultimate cheat code.
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Does bullying create love? No. Altough it does sound possible option, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have made his position better even if he bullied his bullies and/or Uncle+Aunt. And we all know what would be the first thing that Chapman would have suggested should he went to ask help from him ::)
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Maybe he considered doing it on purpose and circumstances of the Yeerk Pool raid led him to actually do so.
I imagine that there are a lot of people who feel uncomfortable in their own skins. If one of these people were to acquire the Escafil Device and become able to morph as a way to escape--like Tobias, Aldrea or any of the Auxiliary Animorphs-- I think they would probably intentionally trap themselves in a more preferable form; as opposed to living out an existence they're uncomfortable with.
I'm thinking about people like the disabled, homosexuals/transexuals, etc. In this case, you cant pity someone for wanting to live as a bird, or a lion, or a member of the opposite sex.
(snipped to quote to the parts I'm replying to)
I figured some people regenerate nongenetic injuries by morphing, though they could go nothlit to avoid proliferation issues. Either way, this seems particularly fitting for those injured in the Yeerk war.
I had thought of going nothlit as an alternative to sex changes, but for some reason I hadn't considered it as a cure for genetic disabilities.
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don't know if I have posted here before... seems kind of familiar. but my opinion is a strong one, and might deserve a couple posts. what we will really try to find out here is weather its a valid opinion. as a bunch of you have said, there is a boatload of evidence on either side.
my evidence is:
-everyone sees five lights in the end! if you think an implied confession is valid at the end of book 43, you must not have read book 33.
-second, he really wasn't happy at the end of book 1. Sounded like honest sadness to me.
-third, the ellimist is a #$%% stupid &%#$ idiot. you can't trust one &!%# word that comes out of his mouth. my proof is simply 13 and 54.
-finally, he is reasonable. he wouldn't make a stupid decision like that. and, I don't want to think that he did. that last one might not be scientific proof, but it's good enough. he is trustworthy.
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I think he trapped himself on purpose. In "the Test" when he faced Taylor again, we had this monologue:
Was I different, or was I just like her? I'd trapped myself. Why? I hated Taylor because she knew. I was going to destroy her. I don't think Tobias is weak, despite his doubts but he did trap himself on purpose probably to free himself from his nightmarish human life
Taylor knew that Tobias was a HUMAN who had trapped himself into a hawk morph? Why didn't she tell Visser 3 that the "Andalite bandits" are not Andalites?
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Tim, you know that's a certain amount of dead posts you can bring back.
I don't see a rule specifically limiting how many "dead" threads I can revive.
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Tim, you know that's a certain amount of dead posts you can bring back.
I don't see a rule specifically limiting how many "dead" threads I can revive.
IDK, just some of these posts are reaching a decade old!
The oldest posts I have seen were last responded to a little over 7 years ago.
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Tim, you know that's a certain amount of dead posts you can bring back.
I don't see a rule specifically limiting how many "dead" threads I can revive.
IDK, just some of these posts are reaching a decade old!
There is no rule about reviving old discussions.
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Tim, you know that's a certain amount of dead posts you can bring back.
I don't see a rule specifically limiting how many "dead" threads I can revive.
IDK, just some of these posts are reaching a decade old!
There is no rule about reviving old discussions.
Eh, I'm sorry. I remember someone telling me that a while ago.
I think he trapped himself on purpose. In "the Test" when he faced Taylor again, we had this monologue:
Was I different, or was I just like her? I'd trapped myself. Why? I hated Taylor because she knew. I was going to destroy her. I don't think Tobias is weak, despite his doubts but he did trap himself on purpose probably to free himself from his nightmarish human life
Taylor knew that Tobias was a HUMAN who had trapped himself into a hawk morph? Why didn't she tell Visser 3 that the "Andalite bandits" are not Andalites?
And to answer the question, Taylor never found out that Tobias was a human and
[spoiler]Taylor died at the end of The Test.[/spoiler]