Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Yorick Brown on July 13, 2008, 07:20:57 PM
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You people do know that you're backing a race of creatures out to make you a prisoner of your own bodies. Right?
So what's with all this 'they just want to have some good bodies' to live peacefully in crap?
I can't believe that in the final book, Jake was on trial AT ALL for killing Yeerks and Visser Three of all people was being defended BY humans.
I felt like cheering rather than crying when Jake killed all those Yeerks on the Pool Ship. And when they destroyed the Kandrona too. Call me blood thirsty but the arrogance and mercilessness displayed by Yeerks like the Yeerk in Jake's head, the Vissers, Tom's Yeerk was just too much for me to gather up much sympathy.
Don't wanna die? Don't invade my planet!
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What about the Yeerks in the Peace Movement, who weren't on Earth by choice, and who only took voluntary hosts, or even no hosts at all? Some of them were in the pool that Jake flushed, you know.
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Tough luck. Like I'd care about what happens to a bunch of slugs
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So you don't care about a peacefull sentient creature that got killed because it's brothers did something wrong?
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ok...I'm gonna be honest. the reason I'm sympathetic, I'm not sure. I just am. I pity the yeerks (well except for those power hungry ones like visser three), and I have no idea why.
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Taking a host is not wrong. Taking an involuntary host is wrong.
They can't help how they evolved, and shouldn't be looked down on as vermin because of it. I'm sure there were Yeerks on the planet that were brought there against their will to fight the war. Maybe even Yeerks who were born on the planet that grew up and discovered they were born during war times.
Yeerks are not inherrently evil.
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Call this philosophical, but no sentient being is inherantly evil. Seeing as how Yeerks CAN make decisions, they ARE sentient, and (as seen MANY times in Human History), sentient beings can go against human nature to make change.
Also, I love how people keep saying "evolved" .....
Weren't the Ellimist and Crayak concerned with the development of Yeerks? Call me crazy, but could they be considered "godly" figures?
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Well first off, Jake wasn't on trial, that was a weak attempt by V3 layers to slam his credibility as a hero who defeated a monster.
Also, basically what everyone has said. You can say all Yeerks are evil and all Yeerks want to enslave the universe. It's like saying all Germans in 1940 were Nazi's and wanted to rule the world, it's simply not so.
What's more is the value of life. As everyone's favorite multi-eyed seven legged crab people have said "to be killed is a sadness, to kill is a sin" Even taking your enemies life is not something you should celebrate, even it is called for.
Me personally, I don't pity the Yeerks, but I understand empathy, and if their situation was mine i think that would royally suck.
Also, I love how people keep saying "evolved" .....
Weren't the Ellimist and Crayak concerned with the development of Yeerks? Call me crazy, but could they be considered "godly" figures?
I doubt it. That's the game Toomin played, I'm guessing by the time they where playing the whole galaxy altering creatures in that matter would be against the rules; but who knows?
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Tough luck. Like I'd care about what happens to a bunch of slugs
Funny, it's the more "evil" Yeerks who thought exactly the same thing about humans. They were just puppets to them, shells not even worth listening to.
I tend to sympathize with people who are labeled bad guys but really aren't that bad, not on the whole. I don't like to judge an entire people just because of a few bad examples, or a corrupt government. Besides, most Yeerks were basically forced into the war (those who didn't rebel against the Andalites) and those who did disagree with the Yeerk Empire faced an awful death if they tried to oppose it. It's actually really refreshing to me that a series made the "good guys" not all good (traitor Andalites) and the "bad guys" not all bad (helpful Yeerks).
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Just a few bad examples? It sounds like the Yeerk Peace Movement was just a minority. Most controllers were murderous thugs. I highly doubt that it was only a few Yeerks taking the others 'against their will' that decided to take over the world.
And what's this 'against their will' crap anyway. They're sentient beings and thus have a choice to partake in this quest to conquer suitable races like the humans. They couldn't have fought back if so many were against it?
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Any Yeerk that tries to leave Visser Three will starve from not having access to the pool any longer. They basically have to obey or die.
We know this is so because when Cassie lets the escafil device fall into Yeerk hands, a lot of them choose to become nothlits to escape the war. This proves that some of them don't really want to rule the galaxy. They just want to live peaceful lives.
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Just a few bad examples? It sounds like the Yeerk Peace Movement was just a minority. Most controllers were murderous thugs. I highly doubt that it was only a few Yeerks taking the others 'against their will' that decided to take over the world.
I like to think that an equal comparsion can be found in Nazi Germany, like RYTX said. The Nazis had a corrupt, murderous system of government that condemned resistance, so of course the image of the Nazis today is that they were all evil, right? Well there were even members of the Nazi party who tried to assassinate Hitler, and there were certainly members of the general German public, even if it was a minority, who thought what their government was doing was wrong. Some Germans tried to help save Jews and other people threatened by the Holocaust. They're still human, and they're capable of disagreeing with something that they grew up believing was right.
Like I mentioned before, the Yeerks and all the other major alien species in the series were very multidimensional; not all Yeerks were murderous thugs. Maybe not even most. In fact the Yeerks were peaceful on their home planet for most of their evolution, until the Council of Thirteen decided to blow that pop stand and start taking over other sentient beings. It seems like lots of Yeerks wanted to become nothlits to escape the war, or help humans fight against the Empire (that Yeerk who was helping break people out of cages in #53), or fight against the Empire themselves (the Peace Movement). It's my personal opinion, because the Yeerks were portrayed as alien but with all the drawbacks that any human might have, that it isn't fair to characterize them all as evil just because they grew up surrounded by propaganda that told them it was their right to enslave other people. That so many Yeerks fell in for that (and why wouldn't they, they're doing what they're born to do) makes them very human and very sympathetic in a sort of tragic way. The fact that Yeerks still decided to go against everything they grew up believing and put their lives in danger to help members of an alien race makes me think that some of them are willing to do whatever it takes to stop the war, and make some peace with the moral dilemma of taking other people's lives and bodies.
*deep breath* XD; As for the against their will part, of course Yeerks have a choice not to take someone over, it's just that if they're told to do it and refuse they face death or suspicion as a host sympathizer (which is a death sentence, anyway), and if they aren't told to take a host they're forced to live their lives blind and helpless. What would you do in that situation? It's as if it would've been better if the Yeerks had never known what they were missing. Ignorance is bliss, right? The fact remains that most Yeerks weren't involved in the rebellion against the Andalites, most of them were just whisked away from their homeworld, probably without even knowing about the resistance or maybe without knowing about the Andalites at all. Then these thousands of Yeerks were given military orders, from their leaders, to become a part of an invasion force on other worlds. Sure, some of them probably loved the ego trip and the power. I just find it hard to believe, given the evidence over and over again of some Yeerks simply wanting peace, that so many of them were anything other than brainwashed into believing they were right to take over other worlds.
We can agree to disagree, right? ;D
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Think about it this way. You're completely blind. You're basically deaf. You spend your days swimming around. Then, you get a chance to see the world for the first time. You can hear and see, touch and feel. Something you never imagined possible. Now, imagine if someone tried to take it away from you. Would you be very happy?
Here's thing. The majority of the Yeerks are pretty bad. Not the friendliest little slugs. But there are good Yeerks. Do you honestly think that all of them spent every moment of every day torturing their hosts for sadistic pleasure? I don't think so. And think about it this way, too. How would you like to spend years with someone who screams and tells you that you're the most disgusting thing on the face of the Earth every ten seconds? If all of the Yeerks are evil, then 50% of humans are evil too. You can't say humans are perfect and innocent. We've done some pretty bad things too.
Another thing to think about... Let's say you're in a room with thirty people, most of which are cruel, violent, and sick-minded. Would it be fair for someone to barge into the room and tell you all that you're terrible people, and that each and every one of you deserve to die a painful death?
Yeah, I know, I'm kind of going in circles and repeating myself a little. But my point is, not all of the Yeerks are evil. Only some of them. Do I pity them? Yeah, kind of. Do I pity Visser Three? Hell no!
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The Yeerks aren't inherently evil, but I don't think Jake was wrong in flushing the pool. War is war.
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Another thing to think about... Let's say you're in a room with thirty people, most of which are cruel, violent, and sick-minded. Would it be fair for someone to barge into the room and tell you all that you're terrible people, and that each and every one of you deserve to die a painful death?
tell me about it. my first year in china, I went to a private school, and all the kids were monsters (I sound like their mother, don't I?), and the teacher punished everyone, even though I, and probably a few others, didn't do anything. we got punished just because we were in that group...
yeah and war is bad.
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I think it's wrong to say that parasites are evil, since a tapeworm has evolved to do what it does. Some might say the same about the Yeerks, but I disagree. True that is how the Yeerks evolved (just like we evolved as predators) but the Yeerks are just any old parasite, they are sentient. As such, they know that they are choosing to enslave the bodies of other sentient beings for their own benefit (even though they can live out their entire lives without doing so). That, in my opinion, is evil.
Even if you don't consider them evil, I'd still find it hard to sympathise. If I had a gun and a Lion tried to eat me, I wouldn't start an ethical debate about whether or not the Lion was evil, I'd shoot it. Not because I thought the Lion was evil or that I had a greater right to live, but out of simple self-defence. By the same principle, the Yeerks chose to invade our planet, so I would fight them to defend myself and my planet.
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Do you think Yorick is still reading? ;)
I agree with people here (of course, I'm a "parasite lover" lol). If you think they're all bad, so you should considere that every Humans are bad too. We eat animals, we kill them, we destroy our own planet... Are we good? Andalites juged the Yeerks as bad people, and they must juge us in the same way. We know we hurt but we can't stop. I don't like to know how we treat the animals who should finish in our plates, but I won't - never ! - stop eating meat. I like so much meat: When I see a duck or a fish, I think about it as a meal! lol
We needa eat to live. Yeerks needa hosts to live (not to survive).
And I have another example about Yeerks who don't like this war and host: in the Hork-Bajir Chronicles, many Yeerks told to Esplin they don't like to enter in a host's body, they don't like to have a host. So I don't think the majority or the Yeerks WANT to have slavish hosts... or any host at all...
But I don't agree for the pool of the Pool ship... It was useless. For the Yeerk Pool on Earth, Animorphs should destroy it, it was a good plan, it was war. But on the Pool ship, it was too cruel... and Aximili did what his brother Elfangor didn't do... and I was so happy to see Elfangor refusing to kill helpless Yeerks...
Well, everything is my own opinion.
And I understand that Yorick don't agree. He can do his own choices.
But I hope he won't be president or anything like that ^_^' I imagine how many people he would condemn ^_^' lol
Yorick, just think about that: Many people killed many other people because they were different, because they didn't understand them, because they were afraid of them... And don't judge too quickly.
I don't know if you say the same in English, but in France we often say: "Only idiots don't change their opinion."
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so if I don't change my opinion that animorphs is a good series, I'm an idiot? ;D
not that I'm saying I don't want to be an idiot...
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lol I don't think so ^_^ But it's an expression to say that if you never change your opinion, even when people give your proof you're wrong, then you're an idiot ^_^'
But Yorick, don't worry, I'm not telling you you're an idiot. I'd just like you think about what YOU would do if you were a Yeerk or if you lived in a tyranic country... For example, try to imagine if you were a German in 1936~1945... May be your opinion can change, may be not, but if it's after a good reflection, so it's cool ^_^
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There is absolutely NOTHING evil about an organism eating another organism. I in no way think a wolf is evil for eating a deer, a lion for eating a gazelle or a human eating a cow or a pig or a chicken. The Yeerks however do not eat their victims for food but enslave sentient beings for satisfy their greed and psychologically torture their host.
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I'm not sure which side this backs up but, I was thinking...
why do yeerks infest bodies? because they can and they want to, not because of survival...
and it's a lot like what humans do. why do we go to amusement parks? because we can and we want to. why do we eat ice cream? is it neccesary for our survival? no. we just do because we can and we want to. why do people use golden toilet seats (no seriously, some people do)? because the y can and they want to.
I'm not even sure what I'm saying. it was just something I thought of.
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Summing it all up. Not ALL yeerks are bad, and not ALL humans are good. When taking over a host against their will they are considered parasites, but those who are willing would be considered either symbiotic or some other thing where neither benefit nor lose anything. War happens, and in the process some innocents may be sacrificed, but for Jakes case...not on purpose. You do what you need to survive...that's all.
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actually, parasitism is a type of symbiosis, in which one species gains and another loses. the word you're looking for is mutualisim, in which both species gain something out of symbiosis.
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yea something like that. You know i had a dream about this long ago. like the yeerk can take over a job when someone doesnt want to do it...hmm how to explain. Ok say you are working on your job and you feel so mentally tired or whatever, the yeerk can then take over and continue whatever you are doing, while u can just do nothing or w/e. iono. my dream was that i was sitting and doing hw and then the yeerk took over and helped me study or w/e. xD
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let's hope that yeerk was a smart one... ;D
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hey after all they have access to my mind. lol like ur portable cheatsheet
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but the yeerk has no way of knowing the answers in your head are the correct answers.
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think of it like this, i can't remember some things, but after seeing a book and stuff its like photographic memory on the spot ^^. the yeerk can remember or access the info lost in my head.
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That would be one of the advantages of having a Yeerk inside your mind LOL. :)
Joe Fenestre is a good example of how a Yeerk could be advantageous to humans as well.
@Yorick:
Before Ranting about how Yeerks are ALL evil, and how human are all righteous by killing millions of cows and sheep every year, please read the oh so controversial book 19. :)
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Yorick>
I agree with Counter. You seem to say that every Yeerks like to torture their host, but it's false. Many do that. Many must do that because their host hate them, so they answer. And many must do that only because they like it. Like some people like to hurt their dog. But many other people just like their dog, so why can't you think that many Yeerks must like their host? In the books, we have many bad examples (Visser 3, his twin, Tom, even may be Visser 1 sometimes... even if I think he isn't so bad) but why? Because they're chiefs! and they became chiefs because they're heartless.
And you say Humans kill cows for food... but don't you know that Humans can survives without meat? Don't you remember when Ax compared what Humans do to cows they gonna kill... with torture. And the animals we kill for other reasons than food?
If you wanna hate Yeerks, so you must hate Humans.
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I hate humans but I don't hate yeerks (except for visser three)
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Humans can live without meat. However, it's more complicated and expensive. Unless you also take diet pills or something. But then, where do diet pills come from? I don't know.
Also, young children need meat to grow healthily. Vegan diets aren't for everyone.
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Actually, there's a special protein that you need to live that is ONLY found in bacon. So you do need meat to live.
Sorry :(
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Many of that proteins are also in insect, and some people eat insects. Of course, they kill, but it isn't meat. And I think we can find this proteins in soja too.
If you wanna be really healthy, of course you need meat. But you don't need if you just wanna survive (live and survive are different).
To ask Yeerks to not have any host will let them survive and be healthy, but not really live (not when they know what they can't have).
Venemous > and what if you don't like bacon? (I eat bacon the less I can...) ;)
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Well, then, it's just like the rest of health food-bad yet good for you ;)
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There is nothing evil about eating other animals be it human or otherwise. Evenm if we don't need meat to survive, there's nothing wrong about killing an animal for food while not driving it to extinction. We treat livestock and beats of burden with more respect and care than Yeerks do with hosts. It's senseless to compare humans eating animals with Yeerks enslaving ssentient species.
"Many must do that because their host hate them, so they answer."
Did you actually say that? Did you actually say that a Yeerk must torture because they're host rightly hates being controlled?
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I think she meant that it was more like a reflex. They're not justified, but what's the general reflex to being pushed? You push back. Even the Animorphs use that analogy sometimes.
Does it justify torturing the hosts? Of course not. But it's the reason they do it. The host starts screaming and cussing out the Yeerk. The Yeerk gets defensive, pushes back with torture to try and shut the host up. Maybe it knows deep down that it's wrong, but this is what it was taught to do.
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I think she meant that it was more like a reflex. They're not justified, but what's the general reflex to being pushed? You push back. Even the Animorphs use that analogy sometimes.
forget the animorphs, go to physics. every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Whenever you push against something, it pushes back on you. although I still say pushing is bad.
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What if we evolved as parasitic slugs? Wouldn't you want to be able to see, hear and feel the beauty of our world?
Please don't stereotype Yeerks, just because you see one bad Yeerk, doens't mean every Yeerk is. It's pretty obvious actually. What about terrorists, rapists, kidnappers, and such? What if "Andalites" came to our world, then saw terrorists, then label of all humans as evil, would that be right? That is what you are actually doing right now.
We treat livestock and beats of burden with more respect and care than Yeerks do with hosts.
Have you dissected a frog? Do you know how many frogs we dissect every year?
Have you seen the human-cow? The hybrid between the cow and human? Isn't that worse??
At least the host body lives to its full potential (if the Yeerk is friendly).
Or the host body actually lives healthy (any Yeerk, evil or not).
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What the fudge brownies ??? Human-cow?
It's like the pigman offa "Seinfeld" :D
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They inserted human genes into the cow... so that it would produce human milk instead for infants... :)
Its sick! Even sicker than Yeerk infestation...
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It's still a cow ::)
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Oh no.... you really haven't seen it yet. It looks both HUMAN and COW! Not Andalite... HUMAN COW! LOL. Its name is "Cowboy" It even has calves now. DOn't you see how this would ruin the ecosystem? Plus that cow looks so disgusting. It doesn't look like a cow....
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Oh no.... you really haven't seen it yet. It looks both HUMAN and COW! Not Andalite... HUMAN COW! LOL. Its name is "Cowboy" It even has calves now. DOn't you see how this would ruin the ecosystem? Plus that cow looks so disgusting. It doesn't look like a cow....
That's unbelievable. Why would anyone think we'd need something like this? I know breast milk is important for young babies, but if a certain mother needs extra milk for some reason, then she could find someone else to donate some milk. That's surely a better idea than splicing Human and cow DNA.
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CI, are you on some kinda serious trip, or what?
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what's a serious trip?
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Actually, there's a special protein that you need to live that is ONLY found in bacon. So you do need meat to live.
Sorry :(
Funny, I don't eat bacon..... I'm still alive (looks down) right?
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well bacon is pig meat...maybe eating pork is fine too.
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AniDragon, Morfowt, thanks, it was exactly what I mean... It's a reflex. If somebody insult me, I'll answer. The same for Yeerks.
And I agree with Counter: if Andalites see ... people like terrorists, rapists, killers, some military guys... they must judge the Humans as you judge the Yeerks.
We treat livestock and beats of burden with more respect and care than Yeerks do with hosts.
Did YOU really say that?! Sorry, but it's false. You don't see how some people treat the cows, the chickens who only do eggs and can't move, how some people capture and kill the bats, how fishes/dolphins/sharks/... stay prisonner in nets (netting?) during hours before die... HOW can you say that?!
Yorick, Counter is right, you just stereotype the Yeerks: "they're bad, we're good". You don't try to understand people who aren't exactly like you... <= It's what I feel, what I conclude when I read you...
And I see you find arguments only to defend Humans, but you don't find arguments against the Yeerks, except the same thing since the beginning: "they" torture their hosts.
I think this discussion can continue forever. We won't change our opinion, because we understand why the Yeerks want hosts. Not that all of us agree with that thing, but we understand. And you judge the Yeerks bad because many of them torture their host, because they have a tyranic government.
Now, if we continue, I think your karma only will go down, nothing more... ^_^' (just saw that it went down already...)
(PS: sorry if I seem angry, I'm not... just a little tired that we repeat the things again and again, to finally go... nowhere...)
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yeah, but his karma is still pretty high for a new guy because he started so many threads. he's made as many threads as I have.
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what's a serious trip?
A serious acid trip-you know, the walls bleeding and everything?
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Yeah this is clearly the Yeerk fan club side of the board right here, so like I said before, we should just agree to disagree ;D
Something I wondered is, what exactly did the Yeerk peace movement do? Did they conspire from within and just gain information, stop new Empire plots from happening, or did they actually fight like the Animorphs? Maybe the Yeerks would gather a bit more sympathy from readers who think they're mostly pure evil if the movement had actually been shown to be more active in fighting the Empire. *shrug* A long time ago I created a bunch of Yeerk rebel characters who have been kicked out of Yeerk society (or kicked themselves out, relying on barter and stuff for supplies)...and pretty much are terrorists to the Empire much like the Animorphs are, except they're Yeerks and humans (and other hosts) themselves. It would make a big fanfic that I haven't written yet, haha...instead it's mostly roleplay stories. But I mean the peace movement was very noble, and we can assume they were big or small depending on our views (I think big), I just can't remember them actually ever doing anything other than helping to free hosts and having a book club meeting or something during that Taylor-goes-crazy book. Laaame. x3
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I think the peace movement were more pacifists. Just a group of Yeerks that refused to take involuntary hosts. If there were no voluntaries, they would just stay in the pool, which is why a lot of the members didn't have hosts.
I don't think they fought the Empire. They were just host sympathisers who had more respect for other sentient beings than other Yeerks.
I think more could have been done with them, especially towards the end when everything was coming out in the open more. However, KA just kind of left them out for the most part. Like the auxilaries, not a whole lot was really done with them. I believe that, given enough effort, the YPM and auxilaries could have contributed more to a better ending, than the tragic cliffhanger that was given us.
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I believe that, given enough effort, the YPM and auxilaries could have contributed more to a better ending, than the tragic cliffhanger that was given us.
I do agree with you there Daphnes, the ending left out way too much with the side characters. Way rushed. I like to think that at least some Yeerks, maybe some desperate or exiled with nothing to lose, would try to actively fight the Empire...it's one thing to slowly break hosts free and be all Gandhi about the resistance, which is fine in itself, but it's completely different when you have the ability to knock out a major food supply or a major warship with the same weapons the Empire has. If it did exist it probably would be a very small group, considering any internal rebellion against something like the Yeerk Empire is very dangerous and would need Kandrona stolen or otherwise bartered or whatever...the only thing is it would require the Yeerks to have hosts, and the good luck to have them be voluntary (or become voluntary) and agree with being thrown into a war.
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A reflex, Dameg? Seriously?
Most humans aren't those terrible things and will usually unite to stop such atrocities.
I understand WHY Yeerks want hosts but it doesn't make their quest any less evil. It's not the torture thing but also taking away sentient beings' freedoms no matter how badly evolution treated them.
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A Yeerk takes away a human's free will. Knowingly and at times sadistically.
What's a human without free will?
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A reflex, Dameg? Seriously?
Most humans aren't those terrible things and will usually unite to stop such atrocities.
I understand WHY Yeerks want hosts but it doesn't make their quest any less evil. It's not the torture thing but also taking away sentient beings' freedoms no matter how badly evolution treated them.
Evolution doesn't necessarily treat anyone badly. Yeerks didn't need eyes and ears because they developed in a pool. It's just like how bird in North Amerca vary from birds in Africa, survival of the fittest dictates what traits survive to be passed on. Yeerks didn't have the ability to see and all that because they didn't need to. In essence I think evolution is really what allowed them to be able to control other beings and not they control other beings because of evolution screwing them.
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Well duh!
I kn0w all that about evolution. I was referring to the reason why Yeerks justified their invasion (in The Departure). That they're weak and defenseless naturally on their own and they just wanted to be able to see and hear.
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I don't think you can look at it that way.
Of course their invasion is justified.
For them.
Just like throughout all history people did so many heinous acts because "they were right" or they were making "a better world." For one group, sure its good, more land, more workers, spread your ideals, form a new and better world, but for the people being intruded on its and act of evil.
And I don't see how you can say that most people unite to stop atrocities. For how long was murder and torture a form of entertainment (note: it still is, but it's not "real" thanks to tinsel town)
Wars that for one group are about freedom and justice are murder and invasion for another.
But all this really should be in the Have yeerks done anything wrong thread, huh? :P
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A Yeerk takes away a human's free will. Knowingly and at times sadistically.
What's a human without free will?
They don't take away their free will...they just use the human's body to express their own will, dominant over the human's. Technicalities ::) But yes it's not right to take over someone's body to make your own life more pleasant, it's just that the Yeerks are born and raised thinking it's what they were born to do, so why wouldn't it be right?
There is evidence that when Yeerks realize their hosts are more than just organic shells that exist for their use and are to be dominated over, they don't like it. They're just as horrified as any human in that kind of situation would be. It's in #19, #28, the Taylor books, Visser, the final arc, the Peace Movement...some Yeerks just want a better way, but they don't get one until the option to become a nothlit comes around. Their whole species shouldn't be written off just because of a corrupt mentality, a corrupt government.
/beating a dead horse x3
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Yorick, I'll stop to argue... You seem to live in a Walt Disney when you talk about Humans, and you think we agree with the Yeerks who tortures their hosts... just because you think ALL the Yeerks torture their hosts... Nothing else to say.
But about the Yeerk peace movement, I saw also a little them like resistants during WW2 (may be because I'm French... I imagined them like that). I imagined they freed people, but also tried to botch some things... I don't know if they could easily fight like the Animorphs, because they need Kandrona...
And others things KA didn't write at the end:
- what's happen for the Yeerks after the war? will they live on Earth? will they truely have the morphing power?
- what's happen for the hosts who had the morphing power? some of them could use it to steal ;) or to look at the girls in bathrooms! lol
- many other things, I'm sure... but it's late, I'm tired ^_^' can't remember them...
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I thought the YPM were like spies and gained information. I don't remember which book, but it was mentioned that the animorphs haven't gained any new info from the YPM.
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I really would love to know what you'd do if you were at the construction site that night and given the morphing power and told of the invasion, Dameg?
How would you feel if you were on trial for the 'mass murder' of 'innocent' Yeerks by HUMANS after the end of the war?
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um...would you mind if I answered that question?
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::) Go knock yourself out
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well if I was with the animorphs in that situation, I would be like marco was at first. reluctant but doing it anyway. then later on I would hate it so much, that I'd probably quit. maybe even kill myself.
if I was on trial, I would say, "you're right. that's why wars are bad".
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"There never was a good war, or a bad peace." - Benjamin Franklin
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"There never was a good war, or a bad peace." - Benjamin Franklin
Too much peace, and you wind up getting squashed. Too much war, and you miss out on peace. It's important to build up a strong military force for protection, though it should always be used defensively. Never start a war, but always finish it.
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;D ;D ;D
I completely agree.
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I agree too, if ending the war is by peace, not by completely beating up the other guy.
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I agree too, if ending the war is by peace, not by completely beating up the other guy.
You don't need to completely destroy the enemy to win. Or at least you shouldn't have to. Just weaken to the point where they become more open to the idea of peace.
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that's still beating up the guy
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I think you should only fight enough to weaken them, as Daphnes said, but without completely wiping them out.
My RPG character would beg to disagree, though...
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"There never was a good war, or a bad peace." - Benjamin Franklin
Too much peace, and you wind up getting squashed. Too much war, and you miss out on peace. It's important to build up a strong military force for protection, though it should always be used defensively. Never start a war, but always finish it.
Wow... no offence, but thats such a grim look on life... True, but grim.
But I stand with what I said before, it is impossible for every sentient being to be classified as "good" or "evil". After studying international law for a semester (and I admit, I know VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY little), and with my own personal bias.... I do think that Jake SHOULD at LEAST go on trial for the mass murder of Yeerks, regardless of the reason. Technically, it is a crime, at least in the most basic legal definition of one. *remembers lessons*
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that's still beating up the guy
Well yes, there is some fighting involved in all wars. Even if it's just small skirmishes that eventually stop due to peace talks.
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Wow... no offence, but thats such a grim look on life... True, but grim.
But I stand with what I said before, it is impossible for every sentient being to be classified as "good" or "evil". After studying international law for a semester (and I admit, I know VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY little), and with my own personal bias.... I do think that Jake SHOULD at LEAST go on trial for the mass murder of Yeerks, regardless of the reason. Technically, it is a crime, at least in the most basic legal definition of one. *remembers lessons*
Hmm you have a good point. But I have to quote Cassie :) She said something about how before the Yeerks tried to enslave Earth, no human has ever harmed a Yeerk. Jake would never be in that position of the Yeerks hadn't invaded Earth and Visser One didn't attempt mass forceful infestation.
So is it a crime to kill criminals? Hmm....
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Look at Western Civilization. Slavery is somewhat of the same premise as what the Yeerks did. The Yeerks just did it better.
And to your point about Visser One attempting mass forceful infestation, not EVERY SINGLE YEERK agreed with that plan.
The My Lai massacre of 1970 is a bit like this. The American Army under Nixon THOUGHT that everyone in that village supported the Viet Kong, but that wasn't really true... it was a village of civilians. All killed. The Lieutenant was charged, and only served a couple of years, but there IS a precedent... its sort of the same thing.
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War is terrible. And it didn't take the Animorphs long to realize it.
I think all of the killing and violence would drive me insane before the war even came close to an end. Honestly, I think I would become a nothlit and live the remainder of my life somewhere far away. Would I be turning my back on everyone? Kind of, yeah. Killing is way past where I draw the line, though.
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Look at Western Civilization. Slavery is somewhat of the same premise as what the Yeerks did. The Yeerks just did it better.
And to your point about Visser One attempting mass forceful infestation, not EVERY SINGLE YEERK agreed with that plan.
The My Lai massacre of 1970 is a bit like this. The American Army under Nixon THOUGHT that everyone in that village supported the Viet Kong, but that wasn't really true... it was a village of civilians. All killed. The Lieutenant was charged, and only served a couple of years, but there IS a precedent... its sort of the same thing.
True, not every single Yeerk agreed. So how many disagreed? When the Animorphs were freeing people before the bombs exploded at the Yeerk pool, Ax said that "several" Controllers came and helped them. Although we don't know how many "several" would be, it seemed less than the Controllers that were escaping, IMO.
Even before the mass infestation began, the Yeerk Peace Movement had what, 100 members? How many is that compared to all the Yeerks in the empire? I don't know if it's safe to say that the majority of Yeerks approved of infestation. But IMO, they do.
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Look at Western Civilization. Slavery is somewhat of the same premise as what the Yeerks did. The Yeerks just did it better.
And to your point about Visser One attempting mass forceful infestation, not EVERY SINGLE YEERK agreed with that plan.
The My Lai massacre of 1970 is a bit like this. The American Army under Nixon THOUGHT that everyone in that village supported the Viet Kong, but that wasn't really true... it was a village of civilians. All killed. The Lieutenant was charged, and only served a couple of years, but there IS a precedent... its sort of the same thing.
True, not every single Yeerk agreed. So how many disagreed? When the Animorphs were freeing people before the bombs exploded at the Yeerk pool, Ax said that "several" Controllers came and helped them. Although we don't know how many "several" would be, it seemed less than the Controllers that were escaping, IMO.
Even before the mass infestation began, the Yeerk Peace Movement had what, 100 members? How many is that compared to all the Yeerks in the empire? I don't know if it's safe to say that the majority of Yeerks approved of infestation. But IMO, they do.
Of course they approved of infestation! I haven't read the animorph books in ages, but I remember the good Yeerk that Cassie meets in #19 asking her if she knew what it was like to live without senses. It would make sense that they would want to infest people to actually LIVE.
Seems a better reason than what we had for Slavery, actually. I'd rather be enslaved so that another being could enjoy life, then be enslaved for someone to be lazy. (But I'd rather not be enslaved at all...)
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Look at Western Civilization. Slavery is somewhat of the same premise as what the Yeerks did. The Yeerks just did it better.
And to your point about Visser One attempting mass forceful infestation, not EVERY SINGLE YEERK agreed with that plan.
The My Lai massacre of 1970 is a bit like this. The American Army under Nixon THOUGHT that everyone in that village supported the Viet Kong, but that wasn't really true... it was a village of civilians. All killed. The Lieutenant was charged, and only served a couple of years, but there IS a precedent... its sort of the same thing.
True, not every single Yeerk agreed. So how many disagreed? When the Animorphs were freeing people before the bombs exploded at the Yeerk pool, Ax said that "several" Controllers came and helped them. Although we don't know how many "several" would be, it seemed less than the Controllers that were escaping, IMO.
Even before the mass infestation began, the Yeerk Peace Movement had what, 100 members? How many is that compared to all the Yeerks in the empire? I don't know if it's safe to say that the majority of Yeerks approved of infestation. But IMO, they do.
Of course they approved of infestation! I haven't read the animorph books in ages, but I remember the good Yeerk that Cassie meets in #19 asking her if she knew what it was like to live without senses. It would make sense that they would want to infest people to actually LIVE.
Seems a better reason than what we had for Slavery, actually. I'd rather be enslaved so that another being could enjoy life, then be enslaved for someone to be lazy. (But I'd rather not be enslaved at all...)
That's really selfless of you. I don't think I would be willing to give up control of my body and life so another being can take over. But obviously the hosts chosen by the Yeerks didn't have a choice did they? (except for the voluntary hosts, but all the involuntary ones were being forced against their will).
Anyhow, my previous point was that even if there are good Yeerks, they are vastly outnumbered by the "not-so-good Yeerks". Should the Animorphs take every precaution not to kill Yeerks while trying trying to save Earth so that the good Yeerks are spared?
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Well to use an old quote "In war there will always be casualties." Another thing to take note of is that the good yeerks would generally make a point not to get into a skirmish with the Animorphs. It really should be their objective not to get into the cross fire, you can't leave all the work of deciding who is good and who is bad up to the Animorphs. In the heat of battle when you're surrounded by what you believe to be the enemy, survival instinct will generally override most thought processes.
Merely stating, it shouldn't be the Animorphs responsibility to avoid killing potentially friendly Yeerks.
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So Jake should at least be tried for killing members of an INVADING ALIEN species where he had no time to pluck out the 'good' ones?
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So Jake should at least be tried for killing members of an INVADING ALIEN species where he had no time to pluck out the 'good' ones?
Yes.
Entirely. You say "invading alien species", but THEY ARE SENTIENT! It is a CRIME to mass murder them! Hitler used the same argument, saying that Jews were not humans.
According to the legal definition of a crime accepted wherever there IS a law code, GENERALLY, for a crime to exist, there must be INTENT and the actual ACT
Jake KNEW what he was doing when he destroyed the pool, and the ACT was destroying the pool. I don't want him CONVICTED, just tried!
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Think about it this way. You're completely blind. You're basically deaf. You spend your days swimming around. Then, you get a chance to see the world for the first time. You can hear and see, touch and feel. Something you never imagined possible. Now, imagine if someone tried to take it away from you. Would you be very happy?
Here's thing. The majority of the Yeerks are pretty bad. Not the friendliest little slugs. But there are good Yeerks. Do you honestly think that all of them spent every moment of every day torturing their hosts for sadistic pleasure? I don't think so. And think about it this way, too. How would you like to spend years with someone who screams and tells you that you're the most disgusting thing on the face of the Earth every ten seconds? If all of the Yeerks are evil, then 50% of humans are evil too. You can't say humans are perfect and innocent. We've done some pretty bad things too.
Another thing to think about... Let's say you're in a room with thirty people, most of which are cruel, violent, and sick-minded. Would it be fair for someone to barge into the room and tell you all that you're terrible people, and that each and every one of you deserve to die a painful death?
Yeah, I know, I'm kind of going in circles and repeating myself a little. But my point is, not all of the Yeerks are evil. Only some of them. Do I pity them? Yeah, kind of. Do I pity Visser Three? Hell no!
However, we aren't talking about a roomful of 30 people. This is millions, maybe billions of Evil Slugs.
And there are what, maybe 10 yeerks in the peace faction.tough ****, majority rule. kill the little F******
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So Jake should at least be tried for killing members of an INVADING ALIEN species where he had no time to pluck out the 'good' ones?
Yes.
Entirely. You say "invading alien species", but THEY ARE SENTIENT! It is a CRIME to mass murder them! Hitler used the same argument, saying that Jews were not humans.
According to the legal definition of a crime accepted wherever there IS a law code, GENERALLY, for a crime to exist, there must be INTENT and the actual ACT
Jake KNEW what he was doing when he destroyed the pool, and the ACT was destroying the pool. I don't want him CONVICTED, just tried!
But then how bad is it to mass murder mass murderers? Yeerks have killed countless SENTIENT species throughout the galaxy, so do they deserve the same rights as innocent people?
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Again, yes.
A concept exists called "double jeopardy". In International Law, it is forbidden to try someone twice for the same crime. Each person - in this case being - starts with a clean slate. The only time when past evidence is allowed is to set a precedent in the eyes of the jury - in this case, the fact that they use the same sort of methods of infestation in the past.
But regardless, "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" is one of the maxims of law.
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Again, yes.
A concept exists called "double jeopardy". In International Law, it is forbidden to try someone twice for the same crime. Each person - in this case being - starts with a clean slate. The only time when past evidence is allowed is to set a precedent in the eyes of the jury - in this case, the fact that they use the same sort of methods of infestation in the past.
But regardless, "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" is one of the maxims of law.
But then the Yeerks have a filthy dirty slate don't they?
And isn't the proof in front of their very eyes? How many times have they witnessed the brutality of the Yeerks?
PS. Are you a law student, you seem very knowlegeable in that area :)
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What choice did Jake have??? What about all the humans he saved in the process???
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How do you fight the Yeerks without becoming them? Now I'm beginning to understand what Cassie meant. What if someone kills your friend? Do you go after them and kill them for revenge? And if you do, wouldn't that make you as bad as they were, if not worse?
What choice did Jake have??? What about all the humans he saved in the process???
Hmm........ I'm having a really hard time deciding whether or not I agree with you. Tough question, there...
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Exactly. The Yeerks are evil Creatures, And the existence of a small peace faction should not matter
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Well he had a choice. But put yourself in his position. You just condemned your cousin, your plan is falling apart around you, you just witnessed half your team destroyed (James and the others) and you really really need to hurt the enemy right then. In that same position would you have let the creatures responsible for causing all of this pain and chaos, thrusting you into a fight you didn't want any part of, live?
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Yorick, I do understand where you are coming from. But honestly, "saving humanity" can be applied to ANYTHING.
I mistrust the Yeerks. I don't agree with what they do, BUT THEY ARE NOT EVIL!. Someone else made this point, but would you hurt a lion for eating an antelope? A wolf for eating a fox? Its the same argument.
As for Jake being on trial, what he did was still a crime. He didn't have a choice, which is why I don't think he should be found guilty, and he DID save humanity from the Yeerks... its just, when you pose a statement saying "He shouldn't have gone on trial, etc." (obviously paraphrased)... I kind of have to respond.
The power of the law should be more powerful than any one man. Yes, Jake helped humanity, yes, Jake saved the world, yes, Jake is our savior... but the minute we say someone is ABOVE the law, EVERYTHING loses credibility.
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Exactly. The Yeerks are evil Creatures, And the existence of a small peace faction should not matter
This quote is like saying that all Germans living from 1933 - 1945 are evil, because they were part of a nationalistic cult that tried to kill everyone that wasn't like them, and that peace factions like The White Rose, Oscar Schindler, the Righteous Among the Nations, etc, should not matter
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The power of the law should be more powerful than any one man. Yes, Jake helped humanity, yes, Jake saved the world, yes, Jake is our savior... but the minute we say someone is ABOVE the law, EVERYTHING loses credibility.
Got a valid point there Leo.
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What choice did Jake have??? What about all the humans he saved in the process???
there's always a choice. not a good choice, but a choice.
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I'm not saying that Jake and the animorphs and the entire resistance should have ignored the Yeerk Peace Movement. Whoever survived can go ahead and become nothlits for all their efforts but you can't blame Jake for killing a few good Yeerks that he had no way of removing from harm while trying to end the war. Jake had to choose between the entire human race or a few Yeerks.
I also hate how everyone here is so forgiving of the Yeerks after the invasion. Okay. Yeerks aren't all bad but you wouldn't expect and certainly blame a 1940s holocaust survivor to say to a German Nazi or even just an antisemetic German citizen, "I understand. You were scared and angry and poor and looking for a scapegoat." So why do you say, "It's water under the bridge. If I was senseless I'd like to capture a good host with vision and hearing and all that even if it is against their will"???
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Exactly. The Yeerks are evil Creatures, And the existence of a small peace faction should not matter
This quote is like saying that all Germans living from 1933 - 1945 are evil, because they were part of a nationalistic cult that tried to kill everyone that wasn't like them, and that peace factions like The White Rose, Oscar Schindler, the Righteous Among the Nations, etc, should not matter
not in a minority that small
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It's different. foxes and antalope are not sentient creatures.humans are
humans kill other humans, and humans are sentient creatures.
You know, I find this thread and all threads with debates like these, pointless. Neither side is admitting defeat, so what's the point?
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There is a difference between death and a living hell
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I also hate how everyone here is so forgiving of the Yeerks after the invasion. Okay. Yeerks aren't all bad but you wouldn't expect and certainly blame a 1940s holocaust survivor to say to a German Nazi or even just an antisemetic German citizen, "I understand. You were scared and angry and poor and looking for a scapegoat." So why do you say, "It's water under the bridge. If I was senseless I'd like to capture a good host with vision and hearing and all that"???
Ok, you brought up a fantastic point. I'm not trying to be forgiving of the Yeerks, and I completely and totally understand your analogy.
I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. As Gandhi said ""I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the entitled it is to the protection by man from the cruelty of man."
Its hard, because we can't really compare situations...
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It's what I call the doctrine of Actual Sin. One must remember the actual sins of the Yeerks-that if they damn the yeerks, than they daman us in kind if we practice them.
If we do not forgive yeerks, than we are committing the same kind of sins that they did, and therefore come to their level.
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Funny. Yorick you seem to really dislike me. lol (don't worry, I'm accustomed)
I'll answer to your question, at first: At the beginning I'd be like Rachel in the way that if somebody attack me, I answer. So I'd try to hurt the most the Yeerks, of course, if I can (I can be cruel. my friends also know that... they call me "heartless")... But if I'd meet a Yeerk like Aftran, I'd think more and try to find another way. And usually, I'd prefer attack the big boss and his assistants than the little soldiers (except to fend for myself or my friends).
Everybody, you always talk about the peace movement and the Yeerks who want to invade. But don't you think there were many Yeerks "between". I mean, Yeerks who are too afraid to fight against Visser 3 (really, this guy is too horrible, even for his people...). I think there must be many. Of course I don't excuse them, it'd be better if they fight against the Vissers, but I can understand they were too afraid to do anything.
Well he had a choice. But put yourself in his position. You just condemned your cousin, your plan is falling apart around you, you just witnessed half your team destroyed (James and the others) and you really really need to hurt the enemy right then. In that same position would you have let the creatures responsible for causing all of this pain and chaos, thrusting you into a fight you didn't want any part of, live?
I understand, but i still don't agree. A serial killer can say the same thing: "My mother and my father always hit me, all my childhood. And women scoff at me... I have no job, the only person I loved was killed by somebody... so I killed them all." Of course, in Animorphs we talk about death... but it's vengeance, only that. And I thought christian people, occidental people, don't agree with vengeance... revenge by themself is against the law.
(Sorry if my English is badder today, I just wake up now... still sleeping a little ^_^')
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You can't write off a whole species as purely this and purely that. Plus, the thread itself is so wrong. We are not sympathetic to all Yeerks. We are sypathetic to the Yeerks who are forced to follow the bloodthirsty Vissers.
We are sympathetic to the Yeerks who chose not to take an involuntary host.
We are sympathetic to the Yeerks who chose to fight the Vissers.
I just hate the way Yorick is branding all Yeerks as evil. It's just so wrong. You don't give them a fair chance to prove themselves. Not because one of them is evil, doesn't mean everybody is.
Now I suppose you all brand Taxxons as meat-hungry, Andalites as all-righteous, and humans always right.
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well...there never was a non-meat-hungry taxxon in the animrophs world. there were taxxons that tried to resist it, but they were still meat-hungry, unless I'm misunderstanding that word.
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Okay... maybe i wrote it the wrong way... LOL, but you get the picture. :)
not all taxxons were blind to meat.
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I just hate the way Yorick is branding all Yeerks as evil. It's just so wrong. You don't give them a fair chance to prove themselves. Not because one of them is evil, doesn't mean everybody is.
Now I suppose you all brand Taxxons as meat-hungry, Andalites as all-righteous, and humans always right.
But Taxxons are meat-hungry. It's part of their genetic makeup, you can't take that out of a Taxxon because that's how they evolved.
Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be considerably more "evil" Yeerks than good Yeerks. (100 members of the Yeerk Peace Movement out of how many hundreds of thouands of Yeerks?)
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I don't hate you, Dameg.
Why would I have any sympathy for Yeerks who didn't have the guts to die for peace or invasion?
How did you feel when the Kandrona was destroyed? Would you have stopped the Animorphs from doing so?
So you would only attack and kill Visser Three and not the Kandrona or a pool? Ever?
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Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be considerably more "evil" Yeerks than good Yeerks. (100 members of the Yeerk Peace Movement out of how many hundreds of thouands of Yeerks?)
I think that's cuz most of the Yeerks we got a look at were soliders: Vissers and sub-vissers and troops. There must have been Yeerk scientist and stuff who weren't out for conquest, and were actually in things like Seerow laid out, and would not a oppose a unity with host
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How would you feel if you were on trial for the 'mass murder' of 'innocent' Yeerks by HUMANS after the end of the war?
Perhaps not innocent, but helpless. Prisoners of war, some of whom could have been members of the peace movement who were trying to help humanity. If you feel that way about the Yeerks, why not kill off all the Germans at the end of World War II, or all the Japanese internment camp prisoners, because they all had heritages in a country that was attacking other countries, and in the case of the Germans maybe a lot believed it was right...K.A. didn't want to paint the Yeerks as pure evil, because they were sentient people, and no one race can be purely evil, every individual to the core. Just like the Andalites weren't pure good, and for that matter neither are humans. It was one of the best parts of the series, because it didn't draw clean black and white lines between evil villains and purely good heros, and it respected the intelligence of its audience to recognize that. Sure some Yeerks were evil b*stards, but in my opinion most were probably just too brainwashed or afraid for their lives to act if they opposed what their government was doing, or what their brothers around them were doing. It's a very interesting moral dilemma, being a sentient parasite ;D
By the way I wouldn't have stopped the Animorphs from destroying the Kandrona. It was an act of war. I wouldn't have stopped the bombing of the Yeerk pool. But at the time the Yeerks were flushed from the pool ship, the war was effectively over. There was no need to kill 17,000 additional helpless (but not necessarily innocent) prisoners of war, regardless of which Yeerks were in the pool, while the Yeerks were surrounded by Andalites and had their major mothership taken over by their human enemies. Why add to the carnage, if they could've simply been sent back to their homeworld? There was no need for it, it was senseless.
Jake wasn't on trial for that, he just had to live with taking so many lives, whether human or Hork-Bajir or Yeerk...they were all living people, and it weighed him down. Like the albatross, even the series threw in that little Coleridge reference x3
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By the way I wouldn't have stopped the Animorphs from destroying the Kandrona. It was an act of war. I wouldn't have stopped the bombing of the Yeerk pool. But at the time the Yeerks were flushed from the pool ship, the war was effectively over. There was no need to kill 17,000 additional helpless (but not necessarily innocent) prisoners of war, regardless of which Yeerks were in the pool, while the Yeerks were surrounded by Andalites and had their major mothership taken over by their human enemies. Why add to the carnage, if they could've simply been sent back to their homeworld? There was no need for it, it was senseless.
Thanks, I won't repeat it, you did it so well...
Listen... no, sorry, READ Yorick ;) I would destroy the Kandrona or the Yeerk Pool. Of course I agreed when they did it. But I wouldn't do it because of hate, I would do it to stop a war. It's very different. To mass murder people (Yeerks or other people) can't be accepted. In France, we have so many movies, everytime, about the WW2, that we CANNOT forget (and I live in a city where there were a lot of resistance, and went to a school who has the name of a famous resistant (my univ' now has the same name... so I had this everytime, every year, truth me). And if Jake won't forget. He'll feel bad, for what he did, because even him know he shouldn't do that, because he know he didn't do that to win, but to destroy because of he hated. Now, if you think it's the good way, do as you want.
But I think this: you read Animorphs, but you didn't understand what KA wanted to say, which message she wanted you/we understand.
You think they should kill all the Yeerks?
I wouldn't like they destroy Germany... never!
Who are you to judge a full people? You SHOULD give another chance. Hatred lead to hatred. After the WW1, France wanted that Germans know they failed, knows that France won... and then there were the WW2... If we don't learn watching the past, the future won't be better...
(PS: One of the most famous and most horrible guy of the Gestapo who killed and tortured many people in Lyon (where I live) is born on October 25th, like me... what's an horror!)
Oh, Yorick, did you see your karma? ^_^' I hope not too many people smite you several times... It isn't kind...
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Yorick, I do understand where you are coming from. But honestly, "saving humanity" can be applied to ANYTHING.
I mistrust the Yeerks. I don't agree with what they do, BUT THEY ARE NOT EVIL!. Someone else made this point, but would you hurt a lion for eating an antelope? A wolf for eating a fox? Its the same argument.
As for Jake being on trial, what he did was still a crime. He didn't have a choice, which is why I don't think he should be found guilty, and he DID save humanity from the Yeerks... its just, when you pose a statement saying "He shouldn't have gone on trial, etc." (obviously paraphrased)... I kind of have to respond.
The power of the law should be more powerful than any one man. Yes, Jake helped humanity, yes, Jake saved the world, yes, Jake is our savior... but the minute we say someone is ABOVE the law, EVERYTHING loses credibility.
Foxes and antalope are not sentient
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Foxes and antalope are not sentient
But they are pretty tasty.
??? ::)
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:crazy2:
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Yup. ;D
Speaking of the French resistance Dameg, there are always movies about the U.S. or even one coming out, Valkyrie, about the German resistance...what are some good French resistance movies huh? There should be more, do the French ones have English subtitles...?
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The french resistance may have been good (didn't really learn about it on my Holocaust rage-studying), but the DUTCH Resistance was the best :D
They were AMAZING!
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What about the Italian Resistance? Viva la Resistenza! ^__^
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lol I think I saw/watch may be 30 or 40 movies about WW2, and many of them were French...I don't even remember all of them! So I think not all of them was translated or had English subtitles...
(searching on the web)
Here a list of French movies (sometimes French + other country(ies)) about WW2 you can/must/may find in English or with English subtitles (sometimes French webpages, sorry):
Le vieux fusil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_vieux_fusil)
Un amour a taire (A love to hide) (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Un_amour_a_taire)
Amen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen.)
Monsieur Batignole (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsieur_Batignole)
Le Pianiste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pianist_(2002_film))
Des enfants dans les arbres (http://www.cinetroc.com/echange-dvd/352143_Des_enfants_dans_les_arbres.html)
La colline aux milles enfants (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Colline_aux_mille_enfants)
Les cerfs-volants (movie of this book) (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_cerfs-volants)
... I can't remember other serious French movies... but here funny movies about WW2:
1st movie about the Septieme Compagnie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mais_o%C3%B9_est_donc_pass%C3%A9e_la_septi%C3%A8me_compagnie%3F)
2nd (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_a_retrouv%C3%A9_la_septi%C3%A8me_compagnie)
3rd (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Septi%C3%A8me_Compagnie_au_clair_de_lune)
La grande vadrouille (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Grande_Vadrouille)
Papy fait de la resistance (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papy_fait_de_la_r%C3%A9sistance)
La vache et le prisonnier (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Vache_et_le_Prisonnier)
La traversée de Paris (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Travers%C3%A9e_de_Paris)
Le mur de l'Atlantique (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_mur_de_l%27atlantique)
This list isn't full, of course. I can't remember all the movies I saw and I didn't saw every ones...
Good luck, if you wanna see them... ^_^'
Edit:
Nuit et brouillard (didn't see it, but my mother said it's a good movie) (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuit_et_brouillard_(film))
Au revoir les enfants (same for this one) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au_revoir%2C_les_enfants)
And 2 lists of movies:
Movies about the Occupation in France (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Film_sur_l%27Occupation_fran%C3%A7aise)
Movies about the French resistance (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_R%C3%A9sistance_int%C3%A9rieure_fran%C3%A7aise_au_cin%C3%A9ma#S.C3.A9lection_de_films)
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Wow, that's quite a list! I wanted to see The Pianist...it's interesting that there was even Jewish resistance during World War II. Hooray for humanity, always fighting ^^
I hope that not all of those are depressing hehe...the comedies look good!
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Not all depressing ^_^ Sometimes it's great, sometimes they die... But the comedies are cool and very famous! You should try to watch them! And The Pianist is amazing. I didn't put them, because it wasn't French and I'm sure you saw them, but 2 of my favorites are Furyo (Japan) and La vita e bella (Italy). I also watched a German movie, Aimee et Jaguar, who is about lesbians during the WW2. A love to hide is a movie about gay during the WW2.
And ... I watched another one 2 weeks ago and already don't remember the title >_< I watched too many movies about WW2, my head gonna explode!
And about Lyon, and this chief of the Gestapo (who have the same birthday than me), Klaus Barbie: he was judged in Lyon, and we can watch the video of his judgment in the Museum of the Resistance in Lyon. When I read the last Animorphs, with the judgment of Visser 3. It was so... don't have word for that, even in French... to listen what this guy made during the WW2 (and truth me, it makes you sick), and see him who don't move, don't listen, don't understand... It was many years after the end of the war, he was very old. I think he died few years later. For the visser, he just couldn't answer or move, it was just a box... May be I have too much imagination, but it remembered me Klaus Barbie...
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Deep :(
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Oh man, you know, Visser Three's trial did kind of remind me of the Nazi trials...except for the purple box o.O Pretty sure the Nazis weren't put into purple boxes.
I love La Vita e` Bella but I can't watch it all the time, it's makes me cry :'( Like Schindler's List, another good one...
I've never seen Furyo, I wonder if I can find these movies somewhere, maybe a really good video rental store. Or Netflix?
Dameg did I tell you that I went to Japan in June? (As the topic strays farther and farther from the pedantics of Yeerkish morality...x3)
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lol It's true, the subject of the topic is changing.
I watched Schindler's List few months ago, it's a very good movie!
And La Vita e Bella also makes me cry... ^_^'
Sorry, I forgot the English name of Furyo. Furyo is the stupid French title, I really don't know why they give it this title >_< In English it's Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence. So I think now you remember you saw it ^_^
How was your trip? I still hope I could be in Japan in October... ^_^
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Aw, I still haven't seen it...I like stories about rebels and anti-heroes though, and a lot of it really happened...I'll have to check them out sometime ^^
Japan was awesome, we went to Osaka, Kyoto, Tokyo, Fukui...to the town of Obama which naturally loves Barack Obama, haha...I even got to learn some Japanese...like "hey...hey, listen...everything is a conspiracy" x3 and the other usual, actually useful phrases ::) I hope you get to go!
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lol very usual ^_^'
I also like anti-heroes stories... But you really never saw Merry Christmas Mister Lawrence!! Oh, this movie is so cool!! You SHOULD watch it!
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OH, I remember hearing about this now, it has a really young David Bowie in it! XD Even more of a reason to see it! ;D
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Yeah ^_^There is David Bowie in ;)
Another very good French movie, but it's about WW1:
Un Long Dimanche de fiancailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Very_Long_Engagement) (movie from a book, movie made by the director of Amelie (Poulain))
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Ooo, cool, kind of like All Quiet on the Western Front, about young German soldiers in WWI...
I'm reading on Wikipedia about the pun Manech aime Mathilde, MMM xD In English they made it pretty silly, "Manech's Marrying Mathilde", because "loves" doesn't sound like the letter "M"...XD
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lol they changed into "Married"? ^_^' I prefer "aiMe" ;)
But this movie is really beautiful.
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I just hate the way Yorick is branding all Yeerks as evil. It's just so wrong. You don't give them a fair chance to prove themselves. Not because one of them is evil, doesn't mean everybody is.
Now I suppose you all brand Taxxons as meat-hungry, Andalites as all-righteous, and humans always right.
But Taxxons are meat-hungry. It's part of their genetic makeup, you can't take that out of a Taxxon because that's how they evolved.
Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be considerably more "evil" Yeerks than good Yeerks. (100 members of the Yeerk Peace Movement out of how many hundreds of thouands of Yeerks?)
To use a Harry Potter quote: "The world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters." I don't imagine, either, that the Yeerk world is divided into peace movement and Yeerks exactly like Visser Three, and just like the human world isn't divided into, say, Ghandi and Hitler. There's a scale. A few Yeerks will be genuinely evil, and a few will be peace movement Yeerks. If you consider what the PM Yeerks are giving up and risking, you can see these are the really, really good Yeerks. I imagine most Yeerks aren't deliberately cruel to their hosts or other Yeerks, but are too afraid to go against the Empire or don't actually see anything wrong with taking involuntary hosts (which isn't so hard to believe considering they've been raised on Empire propaganda). Even Visser Three, in the HBC, doesn't seem too bad, and it takes Aftran a long time and a lot of convincing to realise taking involuntary hosts is wrong and to be prepared to do something about it. Also, consider that many Yeerks may hypothetically be very prepared to join the peace movement, but haven't had the opportunity: the peace movement will have to be very careful about who it invites to join, they can't exactly put up posters and hand out flyers! Consequently, recruitment of new members will be slow. Also, there may be more than one rebel group. "The Peace Movement" is simply the one the Anis know about and have contact with.
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Exactly, the picture is skewed...most of the Yeerks we met in the series appeared power hungry or ruthless, but they can't all be that way. Even those that were, like Eslin who wanted to kill Visser Three (there's rebellion right there) was doing so because he lost someone he cared for. There was that Yeerk scientist who was working on removing free will from humans, and he knew it was wrong and furthermore impossible, but he knew he would be killed if he failed or even refused. He asked the Animorphs if he could come with them, I believe...now that would've made an interesting storyline, whether he was made a nothlit later on or simply forced to starve...but the Animorphs just said no. Aw, well ::)
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Exactly, the picture is skewed...most of the Yeerks we met in the series appeared power hungry or ruthless, but they can't all be that way. Even those that were, like Eslin who wanted to kill Visser Three (there's rebellion right there) was doing so because he lost someone he cared for. There was that Yeerk scientist who was working on removing free will from humans, and he knew it was wrong and furthermore impossible, but he knew he would be killed if he failed or even refused. He asked the Animorphs if he could come with them, I believe...now that would've made an interesting storyline, whether he was made a nothlit later on or simply forced to starve...but the Animorphs just said no. Aw, well ::)
I can't picture the Ani's forcing him to starve, not at that point if he'd come with them and trusted them. However, I'm not sure if the nothlit thing would have occured to them either, and it is one thing to entrust Aftran with the morphing technology when she's proven herself, but that Yeerk? I imagine they may have given him a quick death, or perhaps passed him over to the Chee, who can generate Kandrona, as we see in number 10 with Erek. Either would probably be preferable to what V3 might do to him.
As Ax was narrating that book, it would also have been hilarious to see his reaction to having a Yeerk come with them!!
But yeah, we only see a handful of Yeerks in the series, and very few of those in any detail. I imagine Yeerks are as varied and complex as humans. To decide all humans were evil based on the actions of, say, Saddam Hussein and Hitler, would be erroneous, and IMO it's the same with Yeerks.