Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: CounterInstinct on June 06, 2008, 09:22:34 AM
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No translator devices were used right? And Ax depended solely on thought speech to communicate with Earthanoids.... how did he learn to speak english when he morphed human?
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You know, I was just thinking this and came on to make a topic about it.
I'm not sure. Technically he shouldn't be able to speak English, or any language for that matter.
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well he did have the translator chip like all andalites. he always messed around with sounds remember? I mean he did speak pretty perfect english besides that.
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I thought that the translator chip only worked one way though. Like a human would speak and it would turn it into words that Andalites understood. It wouldn't have to work the other way since thought speak doesn't use words but just kind of puts the right pictures or thoughts into your head.
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I thought that the translator chip only worked one way though. Like a human would speak and it would turn it into words that Andalites understood. It wouldn't have to work the other way since thought speak doesn't use words but just kind of puts the right pictures or thoughts into your head.
Couldn't have put it better myself. All members of the Andalite military have a translator chip implanted in them, which translates unfamiliar languages for them to understand. Thought speech works on a level beyond words, so any sentient species can understand thought speech.
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Maybe Ax is just a really fast learner...
Theoretically even when he's in human morph the translator chip should still function (or should it?) to translate what the other humans say. Perhaps he just was using that to help him learn the language itself.
And he's a really fast learner...
...
...
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You know I figure the translator helps in some way
I mean think about it
Aldrea morphed Hork-Bajir and could speak fine right away
Same with Alloran in TAC
I doubt Visser Three watched Muzzy when he first tried a human morph
Granted I haven't the slightest idea how it might work, but I figure it must do somethin
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Something that's really bothered me-
If thought-speak works on a level 'deeper than mere words' where do the Andalite language and Andalite words come from ????
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A written language and a "spoken" language have different purposes. A written language could be used for logs or manuscripts.
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I thought that the translator chip only worked one way though. Like a human would speak and it would turn it into words that Andalites understood. It wouldn't have to work the other way since thought speak doesn't use words but just kind of puts the right pictures or thoughts into your head.
Couldn't have put it better myself. All members of the Andalite military have a translator chip implanted in them, which translates unfamiliar languages for them to understand. Thought speech works on a level beyond words, so any sentient species can understand thought speech.
wasn't that mentioned in TAC when elfangor and arbon were talking to loren on the skrit na ship...
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So thermalrider, you're saying that Andalite is the galaxy's answer to Esperanto :lol:? Cool.
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Theoretically the chip could be an extension of the language centers of the brain, adding any language directly to his mind.
Just a thought.
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I would say that it comes as natural for the morph but speech doesn't come natural to us since we have to learn how to speak so I would just consider it freedom on the authors part.
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Well, Elfangor used a translator chip on Loren back there...
Aldrea also used on one on Dak Hamee...
Maybe the human languages were already "learned" by Andalites at school...? Since Ax once said that they studied humans as part of their education in their school.
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well, u know elfangor knew english, cuz he lived amongst them and all, maybe he taught ax english? that was never mentioned, yes i know. but it is a cool thought, and it would make some sense
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Maybe the human languages were already "learned" by Andalites at school...? Since Ax once said that they studied humans as part of their education in their school.
I don't know about that. Ax was a worse slacker than Marco as far as school goes. Anytime it came up he "Didn't pay attention that day."
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True, when he first had to explain Sario rips(in #11, I think)he said he didn't learn much that day beacuse he was distracted by a girl ;D ::).
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Here's how I've interpreted the books' explanations.
First of all, translator chips work regardless of whether the user is morphed or not.
The translator chip (once it has decoded the language) almost instantaneously translates spoken word into the whole universal-symbol-more-than-words-super-neato-everyone-can-understand thought speak equivalent. So the user (an andalite, for simplicity) both hears the actual spoken word and comprehends it's meaning at the same time. It would not take long for anyone using this device to VERY quickly pick up the language and therefore be able to speak it once morphed into a sound-speaking creature, ESPECIALLY smart people like Edriss and Aldrea.
Let's look at the cases:
Aldrea spent much time exploring the Hork-Bajir homeworld with Dak in both Andalite and Chadoo forms, forms which she used thoughtspeak to talk to Dak, and even fought most of the war before she actually morphed Hork-Bajir and spoke with words. That's plenty of time, if we use my above hypothesis, to learn the language from that method. In fact, I don't believe Aldrea actually morphed a Hork-Bajir until very late in the book. But even if I'm wrong about that she STILL had alot of time to speak with him in non-soundspeech forms.
Elfangor had PLENTY of time to use the translator to understand Loren and Chapman with the translator chip before he ever actually morphed human and had to use soundspeech. He surely would have learned by then, again using my above theory.
Ax is a little harder to explain, but he did have plenty of conversation with the Animorphs in human form on the Dome Ship and then on the beach before he morphed human on the mainland. But it's not like he had some huge monologue; it's feasible that he was a quick enough learner on this very efficient language learning system that he learned enough of it to speak the little amount that he did in this book. After all, though she was obviously more intellectual than Ax, Edriss was able to interpret much of the English language (her first host was muslim, so you can't really use that as an explanation) in a short time from listening to radio signals in orbit without the aid of thought-speak-element-based translator chips.
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I applaud you for your deep intellectual reasoning :).
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Here's how I've interpreted the books' explanations.
First of all, translator chips work regardless of whether the user is morphed or not.
The translator chip (once it has decoded the language) almost instantaneously translates spoken word into the whole universal-symbol-more-than-words-super-neato-everyone-can-understand thought speak equivalent. So the user (an andalite, for simplicity) both hears the actual spoken word and comprehends it's meaning at the same time. It would not take long for anyone using this device to VERY quickly pick up the language and therefore be able to speak it once morphed into a sound-speaking creature, ESPECIALLY smart people like Edriss and Aldrea.
Let's look at the cases:
Aldrea spent much time exploring the Hork-Bajir homeworld with Dak in both Andalite and Chadoo forms, forms which she used thoughtspeak to talk to Dak, and even fought most of the war before she actually morphed Hork-Bajir and spoke with words. That's plenty of time, if we use my above hypothesis, to learn the language from that method. In fact, I don't believe Aldrea actually morphed a Hork-Bajir until very late in the book. But even if I'm wrong about that she STILL had alot of time to speak with him in non-soundspeech forms.
Elfangor had PLENTY of time to use the translator to understand Loren and Chapman with the translator chip before he ever actually morphed human and had to use soundspeech. He surely would have learned by then, again using my above theory.
Ax is a little harder to explain, but he did have plenty of conversation with the Animorphs in human form on the Dome Ship and then on the beach before he morphed human on the mainland. But it's not like he had some huge monologue; it's feasible that he was a quick enough learner on this very efficient language learning system that he learned enough of it to speak the little amount that he did in this book. After all, though she was obviously more intellectual than Ax, Edriss was able to interpret much of the English language (her first host was muslim, so you can't really use that as an explanation) in a short time from listening to radio signals in orbit without the aid of thought-speak-element-based translator chips.
I think my brain just fried.
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ummm... need a translator chip for that? :o
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O come on, I got it ;).
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I really want to come up with an intelligent answer for this but the only think that pops into my head is the Universal Translators from Star Trek. Despite the fact that they are the comm badges worn on the chest everything everyone says is translated and understood perfectly!
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I think it says somewhere that Andalites, and some other species, have chips implanted that can decipher most speech. I know it's stated in Hork-Bajir Chronicles. Aldrea gets Dak to talk about a tree until the chip decodes his speech and she can understand him.
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I figured learning English must have had something to do with the translators. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise.
Though, I always wondered how Ax was able to learn to read English so quickly, in #8. Would the translators somehow help with that too? Or maybe Ax is just fast.
And another thing that bothered me about thought-speak was that its meaning could be understood no matter what language, but as I understand it, the "sounds" in your head would still be the original language, right? I mean, you wouldn't "hear" Ax's voice as English in your head, I'm assuming.
So...Wouldn't Visser 3 or whoever else know the Animorphs were human because they "spoke" English?
~has been thinking about this waaay too much~
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no, I think thought-speak is like communicating in thoughts or images. like learning in china, geography and math are easiest. it's because numbers and maps are pretty much the same no matter where you go.
for thought-speak, like saying grass, well grass is pretty much the same no matter what planet you go to. it may be different color but it's still the same. if it's not the same, it wouldn't really be called grass. so the andalites thought-speak grass, and other species understand the thought or picture and they understand the word in their own language or something. am I making sense?
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Yeah, it was like when Elfangor thought-spoke, "Yeerk" for the first time, instead of words, images appeared in the brains of the Animorphs... :)
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I really want to come up with an intelligent answer for this but the only think that pops into my head is the Universal Translators from Star Trek. Despite the fact that they are the comm badges worn on the chest everything everyone says is translated and understood perfectly!
Yeah, but that still doesn't explain how the aliens in the original series all spoke English. Even Spock says a few did! Though they did address that in Deep Space Nine once or twice. And Klingon still comes out sometimes as Klingon, even though the most famous word (which I can't remember how to spell) translated to "Sucess!"
Ok, back on topic.
Interestingly enough, originally the Andalites were suppose to have a sort-of mind-reading ability, too. Like if someone thought "loud" enough, an Andalite, or even someone in morph, could pick it up. The ability to send pictures associated with words may have stemmed from that idea.
However, that random fact still doesn't explain how Ax learned English. Though these theories are pretty good. I have one, however.
I think that all universal translators are connected. So, if one translator knows a language, so do all of them within a few minutes to a few weeks, depending on the travel time for the signals. Then, whenever the person is in morph, the translator takes the thoughts and translates them from the brain to the mouth. So, while the speaker may be thinking in Andalite, he or she will automatically have it translated to whatever the native tounge is.
As for reading...maybe he watched his TV with subtitiles?
Though he understands an Almanic in book 8, he has some trouble with reading the English in book 9. So, obviously his reading ability when it comes to English is not perfect.
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I doubt it. in #28 he said he recently got a tv. so he couldn't have had a tv in #8 or #9. Besides if he had a tv, why didn't the animorphs tell david he could watch tv at ax's instead of having to break into a hotel?
yeah, but only in book 1. my guess is K.A. at first wanted that you could thought-speak even out of morph. then in like book 2, she decided to change that rule.
ok, so how does elfangor saying "Suddenly the translator chip had heard enough." fit into that theory?
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I doubt Visser Three watched Muzzy when he first tried a human morph
RYTX, I actually snorted when I read that. Thank you. You've made my morning.
Also, I agree with that, and with Phoenix's clear summation of the situation. (Page 1, this thread)
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Thanks Estelore. :)
Of course, we have no way of knowing exactly how the translator chips worked, but it would make sense for the chip to still work even when in morph (since the chip was connected to the mind and the mind is still connected to the person even in morph). It's logical to assume that the translator chip not only translated foreign languages, but may also have allowed the Andalites to "learn" the language.
In book 14, Ax is able to translate the Galard used by the Horse Controllers. This proves that either Ax's mind is still connected to his translator chip when in morph, or that he already knew the language before hand (either by naturally learning it or via the chip itself).
However, there are some inconsistencies in the series regarding languages. In book 13, Ax admits to knowing some of the Hork-Bajir language, but is unfamiliar with certain key words that Jara and Ket keep repeating. This could imply that Ax does not have a translator chip (I don't think it's ever said for sure that he has one) but that would be strange since it was said in Andalite Chronicles that all members of the Andalite military had a chip implanted (Elfangor had one even at the start of the AC).
Interestingly, we know for a fact that Aldrea did have a translator chip, despite the fact that it was clearly stated that she was never in the Andalite military as females were not allowed in the military at the time.
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When someone goes into a morph, wouldn't the chip either get pushed into Z-space with the rest of their mass or (if it stayed in the body) it has a chance to cause damage if a small animal is morphed because it could puncture the new brain or push right through the head? Remember in #15 when they tried to morph flies and they had the mind control shark chips in them, they were in danger of having them burst through.
Also, as far as Galard, wasn't it said that it was the universal language used so people from other planets could understand each other when trying to trade? Sort of like a Basic in Star Wars or Stark in the Ender series. If it is like that, it would probably be safe to assume that it was taught to Andalites in school.
But I agree, there are too many inconsistencies to really be accurate.
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Like I said, it's easily possible Ax learned the language earlier, possibly in school. Although Andalites wouldn't need it themselves (since all sentient species understand thought speech) it makes sense that they would learn it in school or at the military academy. Kinda like how they teach French at most English schools, even though I may never go to France and half the people there speak English anyway! ;)
My best guess would be that KA didn't think of the translator chip idea until she wrote the Andalite Chronicles (which came after book 13 and 14) and Aldrea would have to have one in the Hork-Bajir Chronicles otherwise she'd have trouble understanding Dak!
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The translator chips would have to be really tiny for Ax to be able to morphs flea and not have his head explode. o_O
Another theory, since Andalites are mildly telepathic (otherwise, thought-speech probably wouldn't work at all) is that the "translator" isn't a physical device at all, but a sort of psychic field... Kind of like the TARDIS in Doctor Who. It might have been a physical device in Andalite heads at some point in time (HBC, AC), but by the Animorphs timeline the actual physical device is on the Andalite homeworld, and simply going near it for a certain period of time would be enough to keep the ability in their head forever.
If that made any sense to anyone, I'll be impressed. lol.
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no, I think thought-speak is like communicating in thoughts or images. like learning in china, geography and math are easiest. it's because numbers and maps are pretty much the same no matter where you go.
for thought-speak, like saying grass, well grass is pretty much the same no matter what planet you go to. it may be different color but it's still the same. if it's not the same, it wouldn't really be called grass. so the andalites thought-speak grass, and other species understand the thought or picture and they understand the word in their own language or something. am I making sense?
Hmm, okay. I was thinking that you would hear the actual words, cause of this part from HBC when Dak first meets the Andalites:
"The voice was in my head! It made no sound. But I heard it! It was strange. The words were
not words of the Hork-Bajir. But I understood them."
But I guess this could also be read as hearing images and interpreting them as words.
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The translator chips would have to be really tiny for Ax to be able to morphs flea and not have his head explode. o_O
Another theory, since Andalites are mildly telepathic (otherwise, thought-speech probably wouldn't work at all) is that the "translator" isn't a physical device at all, but a sort of psychic field... Kind of like the TARDIS in Doctor Who. It might have been a physical device in Andalite heads at some point in time (HBC, AC), but by the Animorphs timeline the actual physical device is on the Andalite homeworld, and simply going near it for a certain period of time would be enough to keep the ability in their head forever.
If that made any sense to anyone, I'll be impressed. lol.
Having recently watched Doctor Who, I do get what you mean and I like the theory, but I personally doubt that's what the Andalites used.
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It's one of those easier-said-than-done things, sorta' like ansible and anoptik technology.
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When someone goes into a morph, wouldn't the chip either get pushed into Z-space with the rest of their mass or (if it stayed in the body) it has a chance to cause damage if a small animal is morphed because it could puncture the new brain or push right through the head? Remember in #15 when they tried to morph flies and they had the mind control shark chips in them, they were in danger of having them burst through.
well that's sort of the point in my opinion. if the translator chips do get pushed into Z-space, why didn't the mind control chips get pushed zero-space as well? I always assumed because it was metal, it couldn't go into Z-space, but that got me thinking, what would happen if you swallowed metal and then morphed? according to the theory, the metal would stay in your stomach, and if the stomach was too small...
of course the morphing was originally only for andalites, and I can't imagine how andalites can get metal in their stomachs (if they have stomachs) by the way they eat. so maybe it would stay in the stomach...
anyway, I don't think the translator chips get pushed into zero space.
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Logically, the chips would have to be sent to Zero Space, otherwise their heads would explode if they morphed an animal with a small head. Perhaps the Andalites constructed the chips so that they would be sent to Zero Space when they morphed, in order to prevent such accidents happening. This would explain why the shark chips didn't end up in Zero Space, since the Yeerks obviously wouldn't design the chips with morphing in mind.
I suppose this could be linked with the question of how Alloran's body (and Jake when he was a Controller) was able to morph small animals with a Yeerk in his head. Since the Yeerk is made of living tissue, I suppose the morphing process must transfer the Yeerk's mass into Zero Space along with any excess mass from the host body.
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How often does Alloran/Visser Three morph small creatures, tough? lol. I think we only saw him go small once, and even then, we never really got to see how small. It could have been big enough to contain a Yeerk.
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what about when jake was a controller? he said the yeerk made him morph an ant...
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but jake didnt have a translator chip in his head. and the smallest morph visser 3 ever does is the kafit bird, right? so maybe the kafit's head is big enuf 4 the chip?
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uh...anidragon was talking about a yeerk in a morpher's head, not a translating chip.
actually visser three morphed something really small in #38.
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what?
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I don't remember... let me check.
it doesn't actually say. all it says is morphing something small, and seeing as how the andalites were shooting at him, I'd assume it's not small like puppy size, but small like bug size.
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in 38 i thought it said that ax saw visser 3 becoming the kaffit?
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uh no. he only morphed kafit in #18.
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im too lazy to dig out y #38. but 1 of these days ill look for the part where visser 3 morphs and figure it out
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Logically, the chips would have to be sent to Zero Space, otherwise their heads would explode if they morphed an animal with a small head. Perhaps the Andalites constructed the chips so that they would be sent to Zero Space when they morphed, in order to prevent such accidents happening. This would explain why the shark chips didn't end up in Zero Space, since the Yeerks obviously wouldn't design the chips with morphing in mind.
I suppose this could be linked with the question of how Alloran's body (and Jake when he was a Controller) was able to morph small animals with a Yeerk in his head. Since the Yeerk is made of living tissue, I suppose the morphing process must transfer the Yeerk's mass into Zero Space along with any excess mass from the host body.
It might work in the same way that humans can morph skin-tight clothes. So anything close to or inside their body just morphs along with them. Maybe.
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Don't forget, though, that any time they get shot, the bullets work their ways out of the Animorphs' bodies as they demorph. The chip might suffer the same risk, unless it is in some way incorporated into the morphing technology, and therefore recognized as DNA-based, even though it isn't.
Sorta' like the morphing suits, I guess.
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Logically, the chips would have to be sent to Zero Space, otherwise their heads would explode if they morphed an animal with a small head. Perhaps the Andalites constructed the chips so that they would be sent to Zero Space when they morphed, in order to prevent such accidents happening. This would explain why the shark chips didn't end up in Zero Space, since the Yeerks obviously wouldn't design the chips with morphing in mind.
I suppose this could be linked with the question of how Alloran's body (and Jake when he was a Controller) was able to morph small animals with a Yeerk in his head. Since the Yeerk is made of living tissue, I suppose the morphing process must transfer the Yeerk's mass into Zero Space along with any excess mass from the host body.
It might work in the same way that humans can morph skin-tight clothes. So anything close to or inside their body just morphs along with them. Maybe.
what about the mind-control chips in #15. they were inside them, but they didn't morph with them.
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Don't forget, though, that any time they get shot, the bullets work their ways out of the Animorphs' bodies as they demorph. The chip might suffer the same risk, unless it is in some way incorporated into the morphing technology, and therefore recognized as DNA-based, even though it isn't.
Sorta' like the morphing suits, I guess.
i kinda agree with that... the DNA-based thing... i was watching a show in the discovery channel (yea, i'm a nerd... lol) and they were talking about bio-mechanical implants. what they did was, get some tissue (i think it was some brain tissue, i'm not sure) and the tissue like, worked or growed (is that even a word?) to the silicon parts of the chip... maybe that is what the translator chips are?
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:o They grew onto the silicon?! EWWW!!!! Cool, but EWWW!!!
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Wait, Ax had the chip right that translates, n remember when every1 but tobias went looking they had to demorph thus showing themselves human? Well we all know that as a human the Animorphs can't thought-speak unless the human form is a morph. Well, in order for them to talk, they spoke using their mouths, meaning during that encounter prior to Ax aquiring a human form, he has seen everyone speak, therefor he has the knowladge that humans use sound n thus being able to mimic everyone's words
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Well... umm... I think elfangor's teached him ? wait ! wait ! is that right ? ???
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Well... umm... I think elfangor's teached him ? wait ! wait ! is that right ? ???
wether by chip or by being taught or whatever method was used for Ax's english, Im still sticking to my theory of how Ax manages to talk using sounds when he's human
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Well we all know that as a human the Animorphs can't thought-speak unless the human form is a morph.
actually, that's debateable. the rule seems to change with each book. in #23, Tobias used signals to say ok and trouble, meaning he couldn't thought-speak while human, and Ax said it himself in #8 that he can't thought-speak in human morph.
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but doesn't Cassie use thought-speak when she morphs into Rachel?
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i dunno... i noticed that in the late books, ax uses thought-speak while in human morph a lot as well... mebby it's a KASU???
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but doesn't Cassie use thought-speak when she morphs into Rachel?
I don't remember that particular occurance, but that's why I said it's DEBATABLE. Cuz there have been occurances of both.
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ya, in the book where jake is at the grand opening of the sharing community center (book 33 i think?) where tobias is tortured by taylor, ax talks to jake in thought speak while he is in his human morph. so ya, i dk what was going on with that whole thing
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What I was curious about was how did Ax learn to code computers? I mean, they might have the same basic structure as Andalite computers, but it would be near impossible to have the same commands do the same things. And I've taking a bit of programming and it's not something that you can quickly figure out by yourself. You have to get both the commands and the syntax right or else the computer won't know what you're talking about. That's why it was incredibly strange that the first time Ax picked up a human computer he was automatically a wiz at it.
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Maybe it was just like a game to him, like that program he "fixed" on Marco's dad's computer...seeing the patterns in the computer code, or something...who knows, he's a genius by human standards XD;
As for learning English...maybe he studied it as a major Earth language while learning about humans, but more likely his translator device translates for him, and his thought-speech conveyed the proper meaning before he really got the hang of English on its own.
Another thing that bothers me, is Visser Three always speaking English? You'd think he'd speak...I dunno, Galard or Yeerkish or Andalite to the supposed "Andalite bandits", especially in human form?
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You know you seriously have a point about Visser 3...huh I never thought about that. Yea how the hell do ppl explain THAT!
With Ax it's easier, at least he knows he's talking to humans but with Visser 3 no one knew they were human until they were compromised.
Did KA ever explain that issue?
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I don't think so...Maybe?
I guess it would depend on if Yeerks themselves could speak Galarad and if they could speak it through their hosts, rather than having to rely on their host's native tounge.
If Yeerks couldn't speak or understand Galarad when in control of their hosts, then with the flow of new Controllers coming in almost constantly, it would be natural for Visser Three to resort to using English when in human morph.
Also, Andalite might be a fairly complex language to speak aloud, especially when trying to use a human mouth. This speculation comes from the fact that the Animorphs originally called Aximili Ax because the name was so complicated to pronounce. Either that, or he said it really, really fast.
I'm just speculating here. Feel free to rip my logic to shreds with better, more thought out logic. ;)
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when he's in andalite form, the answer's easy: thought-speak works at a level beyond mere words. so any species can understand it.
when he's in human form...if I recall correctly, the only time visser three was in human morph was at sharing meetings, and when he pretended to be tobias's cousin. Obviously the latter, he'd have to speak english, otherwise he'd blow his cover. The former, he'd also blow his cover if he said it near some of the new members...but once he's with the full members, I don't know.
and I'm pretty yeerks can speak garlard through their host's mouth. If horse-controllers can speak garlard, I don't see why human-controllers can't.
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Yep, see. Better, more thought out logic. ;D