Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Darth Zakryn on December 10, 2011, 10:14:57 AM
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I'm sure I'm not the only one who's ever noticed this, but since I couldn't find any recent threads detailing it, I figured I'd start it.
Tobias acquired his 13-year-old self, but it was a morph, and like all morphs, it didn't age with him. That technically means that as Rachel grew older (some believe she was 14 at the start of the series or at least close to it), she was technically dating a much younger boy. What do you guys think about this? What would have happened if she HAD survived? Would they have had to wait three or four extra years before... I dunno, whatever happened between them happened, if you get my drift. *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* ;D
Personally, I like L'Angel's theory in The After-Earth Chronicles, that Tobias's human morph aged with him, and was "probably an Ellimist trick." :P
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I actually always assumed the Ellimist had tweaked Tobias's morph so it would age with the others. Not the most elegant solution, but there you have it.
Yeah. Yeah, that was it. This is why we hate answering speculative questions -- you guys always have better answers than we do.
Regarding discarded ideas you want to bear in mind that ANIMORPHS was a very hectic thing from where we sat. Most writers put out maybe a book a year. We were writing 14 ANI titles plus other projects (Barf-O-Rama, some leftover stuff from previous gigs, later Everworld.) Plus having a baby who was a preemie, moving from Florida to Minnesota then to Chicago. Also we were running just six months ahead of publication so that any delay -- a vacation, an illness -- would mean no book for a given month.
So the things you can now read at leisure were not written at leisure. There's an old classic bit from I Love Lucy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wp3m1vg06Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wp3m1vg06Q)
It was more like that than it was us sitting around sipping wine and having deep thoughts. Normal authors can spend all day working out the exact wording for a pungent metaphor. We had maybe 30 seconds. Plus of course ANIMORPHS just generated an amazing amount of backstory. Dozens of characters, dozens of species, time travel . . . So basically anything you read that looks contradictory or stupid wasn't secretly clever or brilliantly thought-out on our part, it was probably just stupid. Jake was born during book #11 as we recall and for the year after that neither of us ever slept, so the most likely explanation is: they were stupid tired.
Ha! I found it! :D :D :D *cough* Right. KA/Michael's answer to that question. Full thread here. (http://animorphsforum.com/index.php?topic=4471.msg364289#msg364289)
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Damn, that's efficient. Nice job, Steph. Well, if I recall correctly, it wasn't the main focus of the thread, so it's about time it finally its own thread about it! :P
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Super Steph to the rescue! (...Yeah, let's never call me that again...)
...But it's already been answered? I mean, did you want more discussion on it? :P
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Why not? Let's discuss everything we can! ;D
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I'm not sure it matters? Are you assuming he would have become a human nothlit (which we can't really take for granted)? It depends on what specifically you're talking about--like, if it was actually filling out marriage forms (say he's a nothlit, actually twenty but in a seventeen-year-old's body--the specific numbers don't matter). He would have, or not have, the right documentation either way, and three years isn't that much for someone to go "oh, you're actually twenty?" "yeah, I just look young, whatever." If he was staying in his hawk body but was actually much older than thirteen...couldn't he just do a Frolis maneuver of Jake and Marco (or other willing volunteers of the right age?)
As for...more physical actions...I'm not sure they'd really let the "age gap" make any difference.
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And I'm sure Rachel's lawyer mother would have a field day with that...
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I don't think three years is much of a gap, even if those three years difference is just how it looks. I'm sure different people have different opinions on what an acceptable age range is, but I don't think Rachel would be considered a MILF next to Tobias. Besides, anyone stupid enough to say "Wow, she looks so much older than you." wouldn't be saying it again.
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Yeah, but you all KNOW how fanatical the courts are about that sort of thing.
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The courts wouldn't have anything to say about it. :P Tobias's birth year doesn't change just because his body's younger than it would normally be. All legal documents (eg his birth certificate) would state that he and Rachel are the same age, even if they aren't physically.
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That would definitely be an interesting court case... When Rachel's physically 18, he's physically 15 or 14... even though he's mentally older. Hmm....
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There wouldn't BE a court case. They can't say you're younger than you are just because you look young. That would be a fiasco. The legal age to do anything would have to go up just because so many people that are 18 or 21 or however old don't look that old.
Legally, his physical age has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. Legally, he and Rachel are the same age.
Physically... well, that'd be for them to handle. XD And after a few years, there wouldn't be much of a difference. Also, dude, girls live longer than guys, this would be a bonus!
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Yeah, if they waited four years. That's why I like the "The Ellimist's trick aged his morph with him" idea, even if it's never substantiated.
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To be fair, the books never actually state that their morphs don't age. Everyone just assumes that they don't, mostly because flies have lifespans measured in, what, weeks? But hey, who's to say that they don't just re-acquire flies every couple of weeks? Loads of stuff happens off-camera in Animorphs, so you can't really rule it out.
Just thought I'd put that out there.
In any case, I agree that the age difference between Rachel and Tobias would not be of legal concern. It might be an issue to the public perception of their relationship, but woe to whoever points that out within earshot of Rachel. :P
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I think it's... implied? Maybe I just think this is implied because this is what I assumed happens. -_- At any rate, I think it's implied that morphs only age if you're a nothlit--that is, it stops being a morph, effectively, and starts being your proper body. Tobias says his hawk body's getting old in #54, KA and Michaels said morphs don't age... and yeah. That's all I have to work off of. XD
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Wait, when did they say that morphs don't age? I dun remember that part...
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Wait... oh bugger. -_- Nevermind, now I can't find it. But I'm pretty sure KA/Michael said something about it.
Someone tell me I didn't imagine that. :P
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I don't know if it's ever said, but it's heavily indicated
Example:
Marco morphs an ant in book 5, near the beginning
He morphs it again in book 45, some weeks/months before the war ends
I think this is save to say this is over 2 years.
Your average worker ant, even well kept will not last 2 years
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I don't know if it's ever said, but it's heavily indicated
Example:
Marco morphs an ant in book 5, near the beginning
He morphs it again in book 45, some weeks/months before the war ends
I think this is say to say this is over 2 years.
Your average worker ant, even well kept will not last 2 years
Okay, that just shoots my argument right down, since Marco would never ever have re-acquired that ant. So . . . nevermind. :P
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I think it's... implied? Maybe I just think this is implied because this is what I assumed happens. -_- At any rate, I think it's implied that morphs only age if you're a nothlit--that is, it stops being a morph, effectively, and starts being your proper body. Tobias says his hawk body's getting old in #54, KA and Michaels said morphs don't age... and yeah. That's all I have to work off of. XD
What I'm about to I think supports that argument, but I'm not sure:
book 19 Cassie morphs caterpillar is trapped, grows into a butterfly.
My conundrum is that she said it was already set to enter it's pupal stage (seems like as good an indicator as any of aging) as soon as she morphed.
My thought has always been they age as soon as they morph, but when they morph out it resets to age of acquisition-so the next time they morphs it's the same age as last time they started, not two hours more each time.
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Morphing Ages: I guess the question is if their morphs can physically age while in Z-space or whether they go into stasis, since they're not really the actual bodies. I suppose while you're in your morph it might age with you, then it might go back into Z-space two hours older, but I don't know about that...
Legal Issues: When I originally wrote this, I was thinking of what the court's view would be of a 18-something girl having relations with an under-18 boy. I didn't want to come out and actually say it since I didn't want to seem like a pervert, but I guess it's too late now. :P The state considers that statuatory rape, no matter if the other party is consenting. And this is why I never hated Rachel dying; their problems would have not ended if she survived, they would have only just begun. Four or three years is a long time to go without, especially if you're really in love with that person. Could they have worked it out, though? I guess we'll never know...
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I don't think they would have a legal leg to stand on if they tried to sue. According to legal documents, like his birth certificate, he is as old as Rachel (at least I assume around that age of course, I don't know the exact ages of the animorphs). They cannot prove it any other way in the court of law.
Even if he looked massively younger than Rachel (and I really don't think he would), it wouldn't hold any bearing in court. I have a teacher that looks 13, and he's 26. (Literally, he does, he sounds like it too, lol.) I'm pretty sure he's legally allowed to have a relationship.
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This is not a case of they LOOK those ages; they ARE those ages, physically.
BTW, I really have some gret new ideas I need to bounce off you. Any idea when you'll have more time?
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I don't think three years is much of a gap, even if those three years difference is just how it looks. I'm sure different people have different opinions on what an acceptable age range is, but I don't think Rachel would be considered a MILF next to Tobias. Besides, anyone stupid enough to say "Wow, she looks so much older than you." wouldn't be saying it again.
Fully agree with your last sentence ;)
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As an aside, what's MILF mean? I hear it used ALL the time.
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[spoiler]Mother I'd Like to F***[/spoiler]
And I'm going to support that it wouldn't be a legal thing.
The courts aren't going to say, well physically his 13. He's not a tree, no one's going to cut off his arm and count the rings.
(joke)
Legally he is the same age
Mentally he is the same age
He has been on this earth the same number of years, even if his body hasn't changed.
Now this does pose an interesting question as to what would happen if a consenting adult morphed a child, to fulfill the appetites of another who lust after a younger partner
Mostly likely laws would be rewritten to address such things
But I still think Tobias and Rachel wouldn't run into any trouble
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Oh, wow. :o
Well, let's just say Rachel's mother was upset for some reason, and she IS a lawyer, so she definitely knows her legal mumbo jumbo. Or someone else just wants to create trouble for them. I know Tobias and Rachel aged mentally, as well as physically in Rachel's case, but let's say in this hypothetical situation, Rachel survived the war. Now, you guys all seem to be skirting around the main issue: Whether her having relations with someone younger than her, who's 18, would be considered rape, even if he's 18 on the inside? I mean, technically it isn't, but the state would consider it so, even if Tobias is 18 mentally like her, and mental states don't really count; I'm 24 and I still have the mindset I did when I was 12. Those don't matter.
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Once again, the state would not consider him a child. All of his personal records would clearly state when his birthday is. His birth certificate, any of his school records... They'd all say his birth year, which is not affected by anything that happened to him during the war, including acquiring a younger version of himself.
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I don't think we're skirting it, I think your missing our point
Hypothetical
War is over, Tobias is still living as a hawk, but can morph his 13 yro body.
2.5 years later, Rachel is over 18, and they've been bonking
Tobias is also over 18.
His body is not, true.
But really there is no way to contest in court that he is 13.
His papers say he is 18
He can recount events over his life as an 18 yro would
And presently, if your arguing a person age in court, it's not a biological thing-it's a document thing.
They don't draw blood, assess it and say, he's 13, 18, whatever.
He's birth certificate says he's over 18. That's all they have.
You can legally have sex with someone over 18, even if for some biological reason their body is underdeveloped.
Courts would have to decide how morphing and aging is an issue, and draw up news ways to address it, but under current law I really don't see how this is a problem. Tobias is an 18 yro with a body of 13 yro- but he's still 18. If you want to look at it a certain way that's a bit kinky, but it's still legal
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Just so you guys know, I don't believe half of what I'm saying; I'm just doing so for debate's sake, because people really would go to this extreme and think this, and to debate them you have to have a logical and well planned line of reasoning. That said, document and paperwork isn't everything, you can't just whip it out and say, "He was born 18 years ago! He's 18!" Mentally, a person can be 7 years old when they're 60, so obviously mentally aging doesn't matter. Now, like I said, I'm saying this for conversation's sake, since they're so close to the same age it doesn't matter. But it's interesting to think about and to ponder.
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At present, in modern american society, documents are everything. And for someone like Tobias, who's life story is known by everyone, it's not going to be contested what age he his.
There is no way to address the situation of a 18 yro in a child's body.
Age is defined as: The length of time that a person has lived or a thing has existed.
And the age of consent is depend on that definition, because it has no need, and no way to measure how that can contrast with a "body's" age.
So I don't think you have a way to say Tobias is not 18
Again, modern law doesn't address something that doesn't exist, such as this dilemma.
The closet we come are cases were a persons body fails or is slow to mature. They have the body of a child. But they are not. But if they've been on the planet 18 yrs they are legally adults. And they can do whatever they please with those bodies.
I don't know if there are laws for mentally disabled. But for almost all scenarios your age is from the year you were born, to the present, and if that's of legal status, you're good to go.
And a thought I've had before: It would seem odd, to me, near the end, were 4 16 yros are hanging with 2 13 yros. (Ax's human shouldn't age either)
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Ah, ok, didn't know about that. Thanks for clearing that up RYTX.
Lol, four sixteen-year-olds hanging around with two thirteen-year-olds. Why, no, Visser, nothing suspicious about that at all. :P
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Like the most people here I think it would be legal, because Tobias IS 18 even if his body is younger. But the court is only interested in how old he really is and it can be proved that he is older.
But the really interesting thing for me is not what the court would think, but how Rachel and Tobias would handle this issue. If his human body really haven't aged a relationship could be quiet difficult. Well, if he would become a nothlit in his human body the body would age, but it would still be three years younger than Rachel's. And even if he is mentally the same age in some points of a relationship would it be difficult.
This thread really makes me want to write a fanfiction about that issue xD
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Like the most people here I think it would be legal, because Tobias IS 18 even if his body is younger. But the court is only interested in how old he really is and it can be proved that he is older.
But the really interesting thing for me is not what the court would think, but how Rachel and Tobias would handle this issue. If his human body really haven't aged a relationship could be quiet difficult. Well, if he would become a nothlit in his human body the body would age, but it would still be three years younger than Rachel's. And even if he is mentally the same age in some points of a relationship would it be difficult.
This thread really makes me want to write a fanfiction about that issue xD
at 3 years it wouldnt be difficult at all. now, if they get married and he never goes nothlit (well he might have to or his hawk body would die) and at some point she looks old enough to be his mother, peopel might start giving them weird looks, but does rachel really seem like the type of person to care about people giving her weird looks?
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Go for it, Canciula! ^_^ As for this whole debate, I think, for me at least, that is' probably wound itself down.
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Like the most people here I think it would be legal, because Tobias IS 18 even if his body is younger. But the court is only interested in how old he really is and it can be proved that he is older.
But the really interesting thing for me is not what the court would think, but how Rachel and Tobias would handle this issue. If his human body really haven't aged a relationship could be quiet difficult. Well, if he would become a nothlit in his human body the body would age, but it would still be three years younger than Rachel's. And even if he is mentally the same age in some points of a relationship would it be difficult.
This thread really makes me want to write a fanfiction about that issue xD
at 3 years it wouldnt be difficult at all. now, if they get married and he never goes nothlit (well he might have to or his hawk body would die) and at some point she looks old enough to be his mother, peopel might start giving them weird looks, but does rachel really seem like the type of person to care about people giving her weird looks?
No, Rachel is not the kind of person who gives something about what people might say, I think the Problem would be in an other aspect of the relationship. I mean, she has the body of a 18 old girl and he of an 13 year old boy. I think that would be a bit weird when it goes about more then just kissing...
Sure, if Tobias would stay as a nothlit and they waited a few years his body would grow up and everything would be normal, because three years of age difference isn't that much when you are older. But to wait three years can be very long ;D
Go for it, Canciula! ^_^ As for this whole debate, I think, for me at least, that is' probably wound itself down.
I'd really like to. that could be funny, but even if I would write it, it would be in german xD
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Well do what you want.
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Like the most people here I think it would be legal, because Tobias IS 18 even if his body is younger. But the court is only interested in how old he really is and it can be proved that he is older.
But the really interesting thing for me is not what the court would think, but how Rachel and Tobias would handle this issue. If his human body really haven't aged a relationship could be quiet difficult. Well, if he would become a nothlit in his human body the body would age, but it would still be three years younger than Rachel's. And even if he is mentally the same age in some points of a relationship would it be difficult.
This thread really makes me want to write a fanfiction about that issue xD
at 3 years it wouldnt be difficult at all. now, if they get married and he never goes nothlit (well he might have to or his hawk body would die) and at some point she looks old enough to be his mother, peopel might start giving them weird looks, but does rachel really seem like the type of person to care about people giving her weird looks?
No, Rachel is not the kind of person who gives something about what people might say, I think the Problem would be in an other aspect of the relationship. I mean, she has the body of a 18 old girl and he of an 13 year old boy. I think that would be a bit weird when it goes about more then just kissing...
Sure, if Tobias would stay as a nothlit and they waited a few years his body would grow up and everything would be normal, because three years of age difference isn't that much when you are older. But to wait three years can be very long ;D
Go for it, Canciula! ^_^ As for this whole debate, I think, for me at least, that is' probably wound itself down.
I'd really like to. that could be funny, but even if I would write it, it would be in german xD
theres nothing stopping them from aquiring human morphs of equivalent age, or for that matter, animals.