Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Darth Zakryn on March 23, 2011, 01:02:38 PM
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I was just rereading New Jedi Order The Unifying Force and it just came to me as I was reading it: What if Crayak (before he "merged" with space-time like Ellimist did) was originally a living planet? If so, does that mean he has a creator? Zonama Sekot, the living planet in TUF, is the seed of Yuuzhan'tar, the living planet that either created or played host to the Yuuzhan Vong. Could something like that be the case here?
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I don't know about the creator part, but the living planet seemed pretty obvious.
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Biologically, an entire sentient planet is pretty unfeasible.
Suspension of disbelief aside, I don't think a 'higher power' would cast a planet out of its system; it would have been destroyed easily.
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^Good point.
But living planets are what sci-fi is made of!! XD.
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Yeah. That higher power could be anything. Maybe even Crayak's creator, seeing how out of control its creation had become.
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You know, the whole "higher power" thing never really made sense to me. When Crayak was kicked out of his galaxy or whatever, he was still a more-or-less mortal (or at least physical) creature. That's how he was when the Ellimist met him, right? Granted he had his own planet (was his own planet?), but at that point he was not yet a nearly-omnipotent being that existed beyond the fabric of space-time. Either the force that kicked him out was made up of nearly-omnipotent beings that existed beyond the fabric of space-time (in which case, why didn't Crayak ever try to copy their example?) or Crayak has now become more powerful than the "higher powers" that originally kicked him out. Food for thought.
As far as the living planet issue goes, I don't think so. Not that I think it's implausible (Father was pretty much a living planet), but rather because of how he's described when he decides to take physical form. A melding of biological and mechanical parts with a giant red eye. It seems to me that Crayak probably started off as a biological creature that incorporated machines into his own structure to make himself more powerful, basically turning into a living spaceship like the Ellimist did (probably for different reasons, though). And the 'planetoid' that is described in the Ellimist chronicles sounds more like an extension of this body/ship, rather than his original form. Sorta like the Death Star, I guess.
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What about a living asteroid? At least that would fit nicely in with the rest of the animorphs universe.
Post Merged: March 25, 2011, 10:14:24 AM
Yeah. That higher power could be anything. Maybe even Crayak's creator, seeing how out of control its creation had become.
I imagine the higher power simply being an allusion to God as it never got mentioned again. Plus the whole thing is inconsistent with The Ellimist wondering if there were powers even greater than himself and the Crayak in the Universe.
I really wish they had addressed who or what that greater power was though that banished the Crayak. Could have been a great plot point.
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Either the force that kicked him out was made up of nearly-omnipotent beings that existed beyond the fabric of space-time (in which case, why didn't Crayak ever try to copy their example?) or Crayak has now become more powerful than the "higher powers" that originally kicked him out. Food for thought.
I vote for the second example. In fact, I'd wager a bet that Crayak either was too wrapped up in his squabble to end all squabbles with the Ellimist, or took care of that niggling unresolved thread off screen.
OR MAYBE HE JUST FORGAVE AND FORGOT LOL :'(
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Either the force that kicked him out was made up of nearly-omnipotent beings that existed beyond the fabric of space-time (in which case, why didn't Crayak ever try to copy their example?) or Crayak has now become more powerful than the "higher powers" that originally kicked him out. Food for thought.
I vote for the second example. In fact, I'd wager a bet that Crayak either was too wrapped up in his squabble to end all squabbles with the Ellimist, or took care of that niggling unresolved thread off screen.
OR MAYBE HE JUST FORGAVE AND FORGOT LOL :'(
Maybe when the Ellimist mentioned it in Book 26 the Crayak was like, "Oh Yeah! Excuse me a moment I'm gonna go take care of that right now." And then when he got back the Animorphs had defeated the Howlers and he went all Darth Vader and was all like, "NNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!"
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The end of the Ellimist Chronicles definitely gives the impression that E+C are the only two beings at that level in the universe. The Ellimist said that if they fought as they were now, they would destroy the universe; if some power existed that was greater than they were at that point, you would think that it would go "lol no" and prevent Crayak from ever becoming that dangerous.
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The end of the Ellimist Chronicles definitely gives the impression that E+C are the only two beings at that level in the universe. The Ellimist said that if they fought as they were now, they would destroy the universe; if some power existed that was greater than they were at that point, you would think that it would go "lol no" and prevent Crayak from ever becoming that dangerous.
possibly, but it wouldn't likely speak up and simply say that to them. It would probably continue to remain anonymous until they made the decision to do so. I do wonder though if the universe collapsed would they actually die? My guess is even they can't say for sure.
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Then again, in 26 the Ellimist said that Crayak's ultimate ambition was to return home and "destroy the one power greater than himself," implying that it's still above them both (lol Christianity allegory). I mean KA clearly hadn't worked out the entire backstory at that point so maybe in the rerelease this story will be changed but whatever.
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Then again, in 26 the Ellimist said that Crayak's ultimate ambition was to return home and "destroy the one power greater than himself," implying that it's still above them both (lol Christianity allegory). I mean KA clearly hadn't worked out the entire backstory at that point so maybe in the rerelease this story will be changed but whatever.
Being a Christian myself, I think I like that theory. The Ellimist and Crayak always made it difficult to see how Christianity could fit into the Animorphs universe (we know they have churches and stuff and Earth is - for all intents and purposes - still the same Earth with a slightly different history when it comes to aliens). I could talk more about how Christianity could fit into Animorphs, but this isn't the place. Good idea Morilore!
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Being a Christian myself, I think I like that theory. The Ellimist and Crayak always made it difficult to see how Christianity could fit into the Animorphs universe (we know they have churches and stuff and Earth is - for all intents and purposes - still the same Earth with a slightly different history when it comes to aliens). I could talk more about how Christianity could fit into Animorphs, but this isn't the place. Good idea Morilore!
Um. "Allegory" means the creature isn't actually, literally God. It just means that it's meant to be evocative of Christianity; specifically the part where the devil is cast out of paradise.
You know how KAA likes Tolkien and talks about why she thinks LOTR has a better end than Star Wars? Tolkien had a couple of things to say about this discussion: one, he hated allegory in general, so when people said "Sauron = Hitler" he was like "no." Two: he didn't think a fantasy story should explicitly include the Christian religion. He clearly wanted his fictional universe to be compatible with his devout Catholicism, but he didn't want to put his mythology and doctrine into the story explicitly, and he said that for some reason he couldn't quite explain, it didn't seem right.
P.S. There is absolutely nothing about the Ellimist and Crayak that is incompatible with Christianity even if you don't explicitly connect them to God. They are just extremely powerful finite creatures. Tolkien's mythology has creatures presented as demigods but his mythology is still compatible with Christianity because those creatures are created and finite and not meant to be worshipped.
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Huh. Given me something to think about, you have. Thanks! :)
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You mentioned crayak talking about destroying the only power greater then himself. I assume that would be the being that they encountered at the very end of the last book. And as for him being a living planet he could have merged with biological stuff the same way the ellemist merged with technology. That makes me think he could have been something remotely like father who instead of using the power to play games used it to fullfill a thirst for power. If he was like father he could have been draining simple sentinent species and learned about corruption from them.
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You mentioned crayak talking about destroying the only power greater then himself. I assume that would be the being that they encountered at the very end of the last book
I will never even slightly understand why people think that thing was even close to a power level with Ellimist/Crayak. All it did was eat people, read minds, appear somehow, change shape, do something weird to the viewscreen, and sound scary.
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Wow I'm pleased to see how this thread has grown.
On the creating his own planet debate, how would that work? The original Crayak is a red eyeball, right? And how would he become interested in games like the Ellimist is? I always thought him being a "fellow gamer" was a horrible move on KA's part, as it would have made more sense just to have him want to destroy the Ellimist by toying with him and what he loves.
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I will never even slightly understand why people think that thing was even close to a power level with Ellimist/Crayak. All it did was eat people, read minds, appear somehow, change shape, do something weird to the viewscreen, and sound scary.
I think it's just something people have come up with to fill in the blanks. That thing, whatever it was, was so poorly explained that fans have been trying to come up with any explanation they can think of to make it fit in with the general story of Animorphs. I don't necessarily think the One was the power that exiled Crayak, but I can definitely understand why people would latch onto that story. And, who really knows how powerful the One was? Maybe it did play some part in Crayak's backstory, who knows?
And how would he become interested in games like the Ellimist is? I always thought him being a "fellow gamer" was a horrible move on KA's part, as it would have made more sense just to have him want to destroy the Ellimist by toying with him and what he loves.
That part made sense to me, actually. I always had the sense that Crayak and Ellimist were both very bored and lonely beings. Having to be the only creature functioning at such a high level of comprehension beyond any other beings in the universe, and then basically being immortal and thus being alone forever, that's a level of loneliness that us poor mortal creatures cannot even comprehend. Heck, it's really no wonder that Crayak went insane, and it's pretty amazing that the Ellimist didn't go insane too. Anyway, my point is, they both craved some form of companionship, no matter how twisted, because they were both lonely on a level that no human can even feel. Even Crayak, as psychotic as he was, must have realized on some level, that without the Ellimist his existence was pretty much pointless. The universe would have been an extremely boring place if Crayak actually ever succeeded in accomplishing his ultimate goal, and I think he knows that.
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I'm pretty sure that Crayak's 'red eye' appearance was a homage to the eye of sauron, rather than an actual representation of his true self. Since we can assume the powers of both Ellimist and Crayak to be equal(and in fact, the Ellimist often says right out that they keep each other in check) both of them are capable of changing their appearances.
While the Ellimist would want something humble and simple as an appearance, Crayak's appearance both intimidates and establishes his power in a visual aspect. None of the normal characters would have been able to comprehend his actual strength without that visual aid.
Also, we're forgetting that the Ellimist has often been stated to be extraordinarily powerful when seen from the views of mortals, but that he was far from all-powerful. Elfangor and Rachel could see his limits, though Rachel was the only one who knew his history.
This 'strong but not all-powerful' message applies to the Ellimist, and as he and Crayak are deadlocked, it would imply Crayak is equally strong, and equally not all-powerful. That explains why the 'higher power' is still there and Crayak hasn't destroyed him.
Crayak was never interested in games, he was forced into the role because he could no longer destroy haphazardly (the Ellimist would simply undo the damage) the only way they could possibly destroy/save life would be to play the game while abiding y the rules. Crayak chose to be a gamer like the Ellimist because the alternative was being completely passive and simply watching the universe prosper (therefore being inherently against Crayak's intentions; the death of species in the universe)
Also, since the higher power exists and casted out Crayak from their universe, that uimplies that there is at least -two- universes (probably more) eaach with their own mighty beings of power. I'm pretty sure that Crayak's ultimate ambition would never come to fruition; that would imply he was stronger than the Ellimist first. More to the point, the Ellimist wouldn't let him go to another universe to destroy life. They would simply change the board to another place.
Last note, but I don't think that Crayak and Ellimist can die any more. They exist as beings of space and time; so long as there is space, and there is time, they can't die, because they are bound to the fabric that make it.
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Strangely enough, I've never really been able to see Crayak as cartoon-evil. He doesn't do bad things for the sake of being evil. Like the rest of us, he does bad things for good but corrupted reasons.
In particular, I think that Crayak is hungry. Not "hungry" in the sense of needing biomass to survive, but in the sense of needing to prove his own existence. Or perhaps it's just a compulsive habit by now. He's destroyed stuff for so long that it's simply who he is.
I don't have EC at hand, but IIRC, he left his original galaxy because he had destroyed all life in his original one. Maybe that's a clue. If you finally arrive at your goal, what do you do next? Make it bigger? And if that means moving to a new galaxy...
Perhaps Ellimist is the best thing to happen to Crayak in a long time. Something new and challenging.
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I'm pretty sure that Crayak's 'red eye' appearance was a homage to the eye of sauron, rather than an actual representation of his true self. Since we can assume the powers of both Ellimist and Crayak to be equal(and in fact, the Ellimist often says right out that they keep each other in check) both of them are capable of changing their appearances.
While it's true that they both change their appearances, Ellimist seems to take a number of different appearances, while Crayak seems to pretty much always stick with the same one. Besides that, Crayak's 'default' appearance is described as a mixture of biological and mechanical structures, which seems close to how both the Ellimist and Crayak were described before they 'ascended.' This is what leads me to believe that Crayak's 'default' form is actually also his original form. The Ellimist is seen as more creative than Crayak, which might be why he varies his form.
However, it is also possible, like you said, that Crayak simply picked a form that would inspire fear. Possibly drawing upon his original form for inspiration, which would be why he took the biological/mechanical approach.
This 'strong but not all-powerful' message applies to the Ellimist, and as he and Crayak are deadlocked, it would imply Crayak is equally strong, and equally not all-powerful. That explains why the 'higher power' is still there and Crayak hasn't destroyed him.
The doubts I have about any all-powerful 'higher power' stem from the fact that Crayak was very quick to copy the Ellimist when he ascended. As the Ellimist points out, the odds of what happened to him were very small, but the odds of it happening again (IE, after Crayak realized what the Ellimist had done) were great. If Crayak was such a quick learner, and he had lived in the shadow of an all-powerful higher power for most of his life, wouldn't he have figured out their trick, as well, and thus become all-powerful himself?
And besides that, as others have already pointed out, wouldn't a truly omnipotent entity have been able to stop Crayak from becoming as powerful as he currently is? And wouldn't an entity at least benevolent enough to have seen Crayak for the evil and dangerous being that he is, have been compelled to do so?
In particular, I think that Crayak is hungry. Not "hungry" in the sense of needing biomass to survive, but in the sense of needing to prove his own existence.
I like this explanation. Unlike you, I had thought of Crayak as being 'cartoon evil', and I never liked that about him. But this makes sense, at least to a warped mind. If you change the universe to inspire fear and chaos, then at least the universe will have been different for your existence in it.
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You know what's always bugged me about the Ellimist Chronicles? The Ellimist ascends, and then the first thing he does is show Crayak "yo, I'm omnipotent now biotch!" Instead of, I don't know... crushing him out of existence while he still has the chance? I mean, yeah, the Ellimist needs a challenge and it's implied that he knew that his need for an enemy was perverse, but then he acts like he hasn't learned anything at all and just invites Crayak up to play Genocide some more. The Ellimist does not need a challenge as much as innocent people need to not be blown apart by laser beams.
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You know what's always bugged me about the Ellimist Chronicles? The Ellimist ascends, and then the first thing he does is show Crayak "yo, I'm omnipotent now biotch!" Instead of, I don't know... crushing him out of existence while he still has the chance? I mean, yeah, the Ellimist needs a challenge and it's implied that he knew that his need for an enemy was perverse, but then he acts like he hasn't learned anything at all and just invites Crayak up to play Genocide some more. The Ellimist does not need a challenge as much as innocent people need to not be blown apart by laser beams.
This is kind of a stab in the dark, but I actually have my own little theory on that. See, by all rights, the Ellimist should be just as stark-raving nuts as Crayak is. They're both immortal near-omnipotent beings with nobody who can relate to them in the entire galaxy, and as I've said before, that level of loneliness ought to drive any sentient being completely Ax Crazy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AxCrazy).
Point is, you want to know my theory on why the Ellimist isn't insane? Because of Crayak. Crayak is there to remind him of what would happen if the Ellimist ever just lost it. And the goal of resisting Crayak gives the Ellimist something to strive for, to keep his focus away from that edge of despair. Sure, the Ellimist could have killed Crayak, and then he could have filled the universe with rainbows and fluffy bunnies, but then what? He'd still be all alone with only the dead for company, and eternity is a really really really really really really long time to try to stay sane.
In short, if the Ellimist had killed Crayak when he had the chance, then I think it was inevitable that, in Crayak's absence, the Ellimist would have basically become Crayak.
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You may be right but the ellemist may also have had an urge to relive his days of innocence doing small things to interfere.
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The doubts I have about any all-powerful 'higher power' stem from the fact that Crayak was very quick to copy the Ellimist when he ascended. As the Ellimist points out, the odds of what happened to him were very small, but the odds of it happening again (IE, after Crayak realized what the Ellimist had done) were great. If Crayak was such a quick learner, and he had lived in the shadow of an all-powerful higher power for most of his life, wouldn't he have figured out their trick, as well, and thus become all-powerful himself?
That's assuming that whatever higher power casted Crayak out had gotten powerful with a gimmick (like the random event that happened to the Ellimist) that could be recreated (as Crayak did with the Ellimist). it could easily be the case that the higher power was created as a higher power; it simply was, and there were no steps to become what it was.
Sports analogy, but as much as I copy the running style of a certain player, do the same training regimen and so on, I can't gurantee that I will 100% match him or replicate him. For humans, the limit is genetics; no amount of hard work on an average person will exceed the same amount of hard work on a person with good genes.
Likewise for Crayak, the Higher Power could be on a level that could not be replicated or matched. If we want to compare the higher power to god, and crayak as an angel (I don't subscribe to this, but it's just an example) how would an angel ever match God himself? If he could, the angel might as well be God.
And besides that, as others have already pointed out, wouldn't a truly omnipotent entity have been able to stop Crayak from becoming as powerful as he currently is? And wouldn't an entity at least benevolent enough to have seen Crayak for the evil and dangerous being that he is, have been compelled to do so?
Except we don't know whether the higher power was omnipotent or not. If he was truly omnipotent, then of course he could easily destroy Crayak, fix the wrongs of the entire series, make it so that the entire series and the universe within it was a god and happy place; but if that was the case there would be no story. Furthermore, it would made this 'Higher POwer' essentially a 'super ellimist'; a cosmic do-gooder.
Perhaps the cosmic higher power threw Crayak out because simply put, that higher power had chosen the role that the Ellimist initially offered to Crayak after they ascended their physical forms; the higher power chose to be the role of an observer, allowing things in its universe to go without interference; Crayak meanwhile would never have subjected itself to merely watching, so instead of proposing a game to play (as the Ellimist did) the higher power casted him out, simply because it was strong enough to do so.
The ellimist, meanwhile was not strong enough to do the same, and Crayak was stronger than before, so they chose to play a game.
As for why the ellimist never bothered to destroy Crayak when he had the chance, it was probably because he now had seen the future; Crayak and Ellimist had their parts to play. If Crayak had been destroyed, books 48, 27, 26, 7, 13 and any book that ever featured the Ellimist or Crayak would not have made sense since some of the actions done by the characters were a result of the games between Ellimist and Crayak, and some of the actions the Ellimist was forced to make (for example, never directly assisting the animorphs) would have been irrelevant seeing as those were 'rules' that only existed when he played with Crayak.
If the ellimist had his way, the war between the yeerks and the andalites need never have happened. The animorphs would never have needed to fight, and all in all, the series would have been vastly changed. Knowing all this when he ascended the higher plane, the ellimist could have chosen not to kill Crayak when he had the chance; in continuity; because he knew the roles that he and crayak would have to play.
Undoubtedly though, this means that everything that animorphs had done was predestined to happen; none of it was accidental; their meeting with elfangor, aximili, and so on.
I personally don't believe the Ellimist would ever be lonely; he had found joy in playing and living life, for him and he was filled with the essences of hispast, present and future. He could create anyone he wanted to talk to, inhabit any being or create a being to live amongst species.
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The Polars sent that memme out into space. The Capasins intercepted that message. But does that mean that that message is still floating around space, somewhere? Might explain how Crayak got involved in these "games."
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Several things if that higher being is interfering by casting out the crayak maby said higher being is doing the exact same thing the crayak and the ellemist are doing on a slightly larger scale. Also who says the being is good or evil, what if its ultimate goal is balance.
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The higher power is a question, but to our knowledge, there is only one. We are never told if there are other powers, or what its role is. It could have easily casted Crayak out when Crayak tried to attack him. I'm pretty sure non-interference means you don't interfere unless you're interfered with. The higher power wouldn't haven casted Crayak out for no reason (or so we think), but if Crayak picked a fight with said 'observer' that would qualify for it to act.
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the evil thing at the end of the book may not have been at full power at the moment but it could have gotten there through assimilation.