Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Darth Zakryn on February 16, 2011, 04:43:14 PM
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Come on, they are a multidiverse group, so my question is: What if one of them had been racist? Like someone hated blacks or Hispanics or Jews? What would have happened? How would the war have turned? In fact, at times the Animorphs seem a little too open that it really gets annoying, not because I don't want that, but because it seems unrealistic. EVERYONE has someone they don't like, even if it's not a group.
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Well, I doubt they would have handed the morphing power over to the handicapped kids, no matter how justified the idea was. (Racism doesn't just end with race, just saying)
Can you cite examples of times you felt they were too open?
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How about David?
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Actually I think racism does just end with race, since it's a specific type of discrimination. That's beside the point, though.
I wouldn't have minded if one of them had been a bit racist, but grew to be more open minded over the years spent in the group. S/he could start by giving Jake and Cassie weird looks when they act all close, and be the most emotionally distant person towards Ax. Then character development happens and by the end of the war they're feeling sad that Jake and Cassie didn't work out, and good friends if not best friends with Ax.
I don't think a member of the group could be very racist from start to finish.
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Yeah, that's sort of what I was going for. This is going to be kind of hard to put into words, but it seems like at times they just consider humans to be only one species (which is true, but still...) and that's the end of it. They probably considuer Arabs and Russians, for example, as equal as Americans and British, another example. And that's not bad in context, but in real life it's not that simple. Political and sociological conditions make it a thousand, thousand, thousand times more complex than that. Take the Arabs for example, like I mentioned. They aren't all bad, I know, but the extremists in charge make them our enemy, essentially. The Animorphs can't seem to realize. Does anyone really know what I'm sort of trying to say? Because it's hard for me.
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I know there are people out there who believe we shouldn't be using the word race at all, and all Humans should just be considered one people. While it's true that we can all breed with each other, and have viable offspring, there are some definite differences between people worldwide. In fact I believe there are three main skeletal structures in Humans, and an expert can tell the difference between mongoloid, caucasoid, and negroid. It's not just skin pigments, though the color of one's skin is one of the most obvious indicators.
The Anis are probably a little too open minded, since there are people their parent's age that are opposed to things like mixed relationships, as well as other things. No one even manetions any kind of awkwardness of a Jewish boy getting intimate with an African American girl, or a group having such a wide range of ethnic differences. Two Jewish kids, a possible white kid, an African American girl, and a Hispanic boy. That's about as diverse as the Planeteers.
There's nothing wrong with it, as being open minded is great. But realistically I think the subject would come up between parents and peers. I'm not from California, but where I'm from that wouldn't happen without at least a few people commenting about it.
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It's funny. Cassie wasn't supposed to be in the original series. So the story would have been predominately white :P
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Yeah, I heard that Jake was originally the older brother, and he and his brother were both Anis.
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Realistically, would the racism thing work?
Jake is friends with Marco
Cassie is best friends with Rachel
Tobias is in no position to judge anyone
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Well either the group dynamic would have to be different, or there would need to be another member that wasn't best friends with or dating someone of another ethnicity. Otherwise there would be hypocrisy.
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Chad: My mom says you sound like a racist in saying we have different skeletal structures. Her words, not mine! So... can I ask if you have any proof? To tell her?
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Maybe we should just stop with the topic. Methinkinks there will be some harsh words exchanged.
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Saying that there are differences between different groups of Humans is not racist. Treating people differently because of those differences is racist. Some people are blonde. Some people are brunette. Some people are red heads. Observing those differences does not make anyone racist or bad. Saying all blondes are idiots and red heads are freaks is bad.
I'll search around online for evidence of what I heard. I don't want anyone to think bad of me just because I said some people have different bodies than other people.
Edit:
http://www.theoryofuniverse.com/man/races/races-skulls.htm
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I know that, but I'm also wondering if you can provide evidence that says we have different skeletal structures? To me it doesn't sound racist, just kind of... ridiculous. :-\
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I found a web page talking about it. Just follow the link. Remember Zakryn's Mom, discrimiation is not about how you see things. It's about how you treat them. :angel:
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I wonder if his mom has a RAF account :P That would be funny.
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No she doesn't. She's from the forties. :akanbe:
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I'm not from California, but where I'm from that wouldn't happen without at least a few people commenting about it.
I'm glad I'm not from where you're from... ::)
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Well didn't David call Tobias a racist one time for saying he didn't like seagulls as much as he does other hawks and that?
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Chad: My mom says you sound like a racist in saying we have different skeletal structures. Her words, not mine! So... can I ask if you have any proof? To tell her?
Ah, I believe that's actually true. I remember learning about it in my anthropology class in college. For example, negroid skulls have slightly larger orbitals (the area of the skull where the eye is), whereas I believe mongoloid skulls tend to be on the smaller side overall.
I'll see if I can find my old Anthropology book and get a direct quote.
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Our skeletal structures might be different but is it that big of a deal? I mean, generally male have bigger brains that females, does stating that make me a sexist? :P
Actually I would mind if one of the Anis are racist, maybe it'd be more interesting if one of them were narrow minded, but not toward racism, probably toward disabled people? Or toward people from different religion/culture (culture != race)
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Well, Ax was a total pill about disability.
That said, Grapplegate tackled race pretty well in Everworld, IMO.
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I always found it kind of weird that no one ever mentioned that Cassie was black. It's not like I expected the fact that she was African American to be constantly brought up and talked about in the series (it would have been annoying if that had happened), but her skin color is mentioned one time through out a three year period. It seems to me that 13-16 year olds would have at least talked about it at some point.
Yeah, Ax's attitude towards Disabled people totally turned me off. I was like "AX is the best" then he got all freaky about that guy being a Vecol and I was like, "Ax is a pig", but then I guess he kind of worked it out.
I also found it strange that although Animorphs tackled a ton of heavy issues (for the age group) that they never did anying on Sexual orientation.
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I'm not surprised at that, actually. Remnants was geared towards an older audience and a published few years later than Animorphs, and Scholastic scrubbed any reference to Tate's lesbianism out. Even if Grapplegate had put such a discussion in, Scholastic probably would have removed it.
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Well either way I don't think that the Animorphs were racist at all,but that is just me.
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My new theory is they were all racist against Asians. Think about it, none of them talked to/were friends with Asian kids! :o
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Or Japanese! Or Chinese! Or Indian! Or Native American! Or British! My God, so much racism! I feel unclean!!
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My new theory is they were all racist against Asians. Think about it, none of them talked to/were friends with Asian kids! :o
I never actually remember them describing/talking to any other friend that wasn't Erek or Melissa. And it's not like they described other kids as "white guy said", or "black guy replied" or "asian kid retorted."
Oddly enough, we do see them describe other races.
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Allison Kim was Asian and she was a BAMF. Therefore this Asian reader gives KA a pass.
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The only mentions of Cassie being black that I can think of are in #23 and MM#4. Both relating to her being with Jake, and both pretty much saying "only a moron cares about that sort of difference."
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Sorry...BAMF?
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They definitely tackle the issue of discrimination in their own way with Ax's aversion to vecols. AppleGrant certainly have their opinions about race/sexual orientation/etc. You just don't see it as much in Animorphs. In Everworld, Remnants and GONE these issues are much more apparent.
I'm thinking in particular of GONE, where Dekka is African American and gay - something that is very clearly stated. Edilio is Honduran and a character makes a jab at him very early on (calls him a wetback). So it is definitely present.
That said, I think it is a bit unrealistic that the Animorphs never mention race. I work at a school that is pretty ethnically diverse - probably similar to the school that the Animorphs attended - and all I hear from my students is "because I'm Mexican I do this," and "you just did that because you're black." Usually they say it in jest, but race is definitely on the forefront of their minds.
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Cassie-Polar Bear scene in Megamorphs 3?
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I wouldn't say they were racist at all.Case closed in my mind anyway.
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No one's saying they're racist. -_- The topic title clearly says "What IF."
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Allison Kim was Asian and she was a BAMF. Therefore this Asian reader gives KA a pass.
Yep! Plus Timmy/Tuan was Asian too.
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Oh well why would it matter? I mean if they were,it shouldn't matter because they all fight for freedom and to stop the yeerks.
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I don't think it's weird at all that race rarely came up. Heck, I live in a primarily white city, and I usually only ever hear race used as a descriptive term. (i.e. "The new guy at work is tall, black, very French, etc.")
Heck, I hung out with one girl for a year before I even knew she was Native. To go one step further, I lived most of my life not knowing that I'm part Native. I really was raised with "People are people. Some of them look different, but that's okay."
But, then again, my city seems to be more concerned with discriminating based on the language you speak, so I guess racism was put on the back burner. *rolls eyes*
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I see ethnicity as something to be proud of, in a cultural sense, but nothing to obsess over. For example, I have some French in me. And some English. And some German. And Cherokee, Welsh, and Irish :P. But while I still would like humanity to be united as one people, that doesn't mean I want those other ethnic backgrounds to disappear entirely.
That said, I found it very strange that race was only mentioned a few times, but now I've come to realize something. I think if there had been any racial issues with the Animorphs (be they good or bad) they were gone by the time good ol' Elfangor landed right in front of them. It was probably a combination of their parents' views, the area they lived, and the relatively peaceful and open times they were in (as opposed to the harsh totalitarian era at the beginning of MM#4) that led them to adopt a "we're all equal" or at least a "we're all human" stance. Which makes their parents even more underdeveloped as people, since how did THEY work with those issues?
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Look, it isn't only in Animorphs. If you read/watch series/movies/books/whatever, how many times did you see an author who present a character as clearly racist (in a realistic way), or homophobic, but still "good", and who can change his mind after a while? Not so often, I guess. Bad people (enemies of the hero, for example) who are racist (like Senna's team in Everworld) is "normal", because the director/author make a parallel between being bad and being racist: a racist is somebody who would kill anybody if he could, something like that. And the heroes? If they're racist, it's only because the director/author is racist, and there is 2 solutions: 1- because of the period it was written, no one care; 2- it isn't shown in the movie/book, you simply can't see any black guy nor gay for example...
It's really rare to see authors/directors who really show one of their best character as racist/homophobic, because they think the public want to see total bad-ass or angels as characters. Black or white. But a "gray" character, being cool with some people, as long as they aren't (for example) Arab, would be unpolitical, and hardly appreciated by the public.
If you just read this thread, you have a good example. Many people think that saying that somebody is black and have a different skull/skin/hair is racist. It isn't! A lot of people don't see the difference. I already had this experience. And I remember an episode of South Park who talk about racism very well too (when they want to change the flag, because it shows a band of white people killing a black guy, and the children are accused to be racist... when, actually, they didn't even see the colors of the people on the flag). A lot of people accuse other people to be racist because they don't accept them. Example: A guy, Arab and a pure ass-hole (he speak very aloud, insult people in the bus, push people...), ask a cigarette to a white girl, and she refuses to give him any, even if she has. The guy will insult her and tell her she's racist, when it's clearly his manners/attitude who are wrong. <= This kind of things happens very often in France. Actually, the Arabs here who tell the white French are racist, are often way more racist ^^'
Anyway, directors/authors probably don't want to be accused to be racist because one of their character is racist. A lot of people think that an author will write what he thinks. But I think some also write exactly the contrary, to shock the audience and make them think. Does it work? I'm not sure ^^' (I think I remember a French comedian (a black guy, actually) who was accused to be racist in one of his sketch... but maybe people didn't understand what he meant. I'm not sure, I never heard the sketch and his explanations)
Even if KAA&MG wanted to have a racist character, I mean a racist who is against Blacks and Jews and gays..., do you think Scholastic would let it go? I think it would have been as for Tate in Remnants ^^' In Animorphs, the racism is shown only as against the Vecol and the other species (and most of the time by the Andalites, if not them by another species, not by the human), and only in MM3 as human... but it's in another parallel, where the Animorphs are pretty "bad". See? Bad people are racist but good people can't be ^^'
What I think: Not showing it won't make it disappear. It isn't because you say that everybody is cool and kind and tolerant that it's true. And it isn't because one of his/her characters is racism/homophobic that the author/director is too. But a lot of people are so stressed to be accused to be racist, that they prefer to say nothing at all, and are often ready to say that other people are racist.
PS: Well, sorry, my post is long and not very clear. ^^' If some people think I'm racist after reading it, I just don't care :D I know I'm not, and it's the most important ^^
Oh, and if you didn't understand something, 'coz you know, I'm French and strange and so French and all that stuff lol, then ask ^^
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Interesting you should bring up Everworld, Dameg, since Christopher is a 'good guy' character who starts out as a racist. I actually thought his transition from being a racist jerk anti-hero to a somewhat-less-racist jerk anti-hero was one of the more touching character developments in the series.
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Oh, you're right. I forgot him ^^' Well, he was more homophobic than racist, I think...
Yeah, I also liked this development. In fact, he became an important character for me, because of that.
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News flash! I was rereading #21 when I noticed something. David is right. Tobias IS racist. Not against humans, against other birds. Sure, they're his enemies and might be different, but they're just doing what they do, and don't know better. At least HUMANS know better than to be racist. So yeah, one of everyone's favorite characters is racist. Whaddya know.
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Well, I think a red-tailed human nothlit insulting a non-sentient bird for stealing a meal that means life or death isn't exactly "racist"...maybe more like animal abuse? ::)
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Well, I think a red-tailed human nothlit insulting a non-sentient bird for stealing a meal that means life or death isn't exactly "racist"...maybe more like animal abuse? ::)
I believe the term is "specist".
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I know racism exists in every time frame to some degree but 10-15 years ago I never really imagined it (as a kid) to be too large an issue in media/fiction. It's only after 9/11 that terrorism became a more horrific thing for Americans thus restarting the whole racism and prejudice thing. If anything during the Animorph's years I would consider it a more stable and peaceful time. It's been about 30 years since Martin Luther King's time (relative to Animorph books) and you would expect for people to have grown up and gotten along with each other in 3 decades some more than others in different areas. So really whilst racism still exists in the Animorph's time, it really depends on where they live/how they're brought up than when. It doesn't seem at all unrealistic to me that they aren't racist.
On a slightly different note, as it has been mentioned already, I'm more bothered that in most tv shows/books etc Asian/Chinese aren't shown. The African-American/Latino character is almost mandatory in American media to appear less racist but the Asian community is mostly ignored. Perhaps this represents size of ethnic groups. Maybe it shows there are more black people in America than Asian that or they're more vocal.
In terms of after Elfangor gives them the cube, it really brings a new world to them. Colour/race is no longer such a large issue if you consider human DNA is human DNA. A whole universe of different aliens are brought into their lives. I think KAA did a good job by specifically mentioning through Elfangor that Hork Bajir are to be pitied. It puts into the reader's mind very early on not to judge by appearances. If you take morphing as a theme this is even more important. It's the person behind the body, their intentions, their actions that define who they are, what should be valued in them.
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^I think the lack of Asians is partially due to the size of our ethnic group (I believe the US census puts us at ~5% of the American residential population, as opposed to the ~12% black and ~15% Hispanic populations) and partially because Asians are accepted as 'the other white', because we face racism in a different way than Hispanics and blacks do. People conflate racism with thinking someone is a criminal or poor, and the stereotypical Asian is economically successful. So people don't see racism against Asians as such a big deal, since a lot of the stereotypes are complimentary (good at math, hardworking, scholarly, quiet, professional) rather than the derogatory racism aimed at other racial groups (dirty, poor, loud, criminal, lazy). What they don't realize is that this is still racism with its own set of barriers and frustrations, that also needs to be combatted.
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That's called positive discrimination. It does have its own problems.
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Well, we have some negative discrimination too. I'll come up with an Asian driver joke for you. :XD:
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Well, we have some negative discrimination too. I'll come up with an Asian driver joke for you. :XD:
You don't need to. Megamorphs #1 does it for us.
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It does?
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Do you hate trash cans, Marco? Is that it? Do you just hate trash cans!?
Granted Marco is hispanic...
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Racism in Animorphs doesn't really come up. i remember seeing something akin to it in one of the MM books (the time traveling one) but other than that, it rarely comes out.
of course, Racism in the animorph universe doesn't really make sense since you deal with morphing.
it would basically reenacting this story by Seuss:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/Sneetches.gif)
anyone who thinks something else is superior would have to face the fact that everyone can now morph into something.
you can turn your self black, white, red, green, etc. this undermines the fundamental "eliteness" that racial overtones usually have.
now, there could be a crazy guy out there who thinks everyone should be white/black/hispanic/etc and try to force them to be but that's unlikely to get major support given the first point.
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Do you hate trash cans, Marco? Is that it? Do you just hate trash cans!?
Granted Marco is hispanic...
I'm still not sure how that's an Asian driver joke?
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Well, it's the only one in that book.
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Only driving joke?
I'm sorry, I'm just entirely confused as to what anyone's talking about anymore.
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Do you hate trash cans, Marco? Is that it? Do you just hate trash cans!?
Granted Marco is hispanic...
I'm still not sure how that's an Asian driver joke?
I believe that somewhere, Marco says one of his ancestors is Asian.
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Really? I don't remember that at all. o_O You sure it wasn't from a fanfic? There are tons of lines that I thought were in the books but turned out to be from fanfics.
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I'm pretty sure you're incorrect. The only background we really get on Marco's ancestry is that his mother's side is Hispanic, Spanish-speaking and not from the US. Not Asian.
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Well, I doubt they would have handed the morphing power over to the handicapped kids, no matter how justified the idea was. (Racism doesn't just end with race, just saying)
Can you cite examples of times you felt they were too open?
or perhaps they would in hopes of their death or under the rationale of, "Well if they die they are just crippled." Could go either way really.
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Really? I don't remember that at all. o_O You sure it wasn't from a fanfic? There are tons of lines that I thought were in the books but turned out to be from fanfics.
Seconded. I've read MM1 hundreds of times and I really don't think there's a comment like this. Marco has his limits as to what he'll joke about.