Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Chad32 on January 29, 2011, 12:47:43 PM
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Most if not all of the Anis have done something bad during the series. Justified or not in people's opinions. There's a thread talking about what Cassie did, and we know some stuff that others did. So what do you think the worst thing each animorph did was?
I say most because I'm not really sure all of them did something horrible.
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Dang, you beat me to it Chad
Jake: flushed 17,372 Yeerks without warning
Marco: set up his mom to die, then tried to kill her
Cassie: trapping David, erasing John Berryman from existence, taking a host as a Yeerk, making Ax into a controller
Rachel: threatening David and his family
Ax: threatened to drop a nuke on the yeerk pool, which would destroy the entire town
Tobias: hmm, cant really think of anything right now
“In reality life seldom comes in simple shades of black and white. The choices in the real world, the choices we most often face, are all in shades of gray.”
Aximili-Esgarrouth-Isthill, The Arrival
“Sometimes even the good guys do bad things. Doesn’t mean there’s no difference between good and evil.”
Jake Berenson, The Conspiracy
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Took a host as a Yeerk?
Yeah, I can't really think of anything Tobias did either. That's kind of funny when I think about it.
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I wouldn't say that making Ax into a Controller was COMPLETELY unethical. It was to save his life, and they all knew by then that Aftran was trustworthy. Well... Okay, I guess I could see how it would be a BIT unethical, since I don't think Ax would have ever agreed to it, but I wouldn't classify it as one of her MOST unethical choices.
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Oh, that? Well either Ax gets temporarily infested, or he dies. Regardless of his personal beliefs, I think he came out better for it. It wasn't possible to get his permission, nor would she have much time to convince him anyway. It was either do that, or let him die.
Besides, it made for a very funny scene.
Aftran: (deadpan) <No Cassie, He's screaming because he has a Yeerk in his head.>
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Oh, that? Well either Ax gets temporarily infested, or he dies. Regardless of his personal beliefs, I think he came out better for it. It wasn't possible to get his permission, nor would she have much time to convince him anyway. It was either do that, or let him die.
Besides, it made for a very funny scene.
Aftran: (deadpan) <No Cassie, He's screaming because he has a Yeerk in his head.>
I guess thats true, so maybe it wasn't her most unethical decision, and it was funny.
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Jake: Flushing the 17,000 yeerks. Not even a question.
Rachel: Surprisingly enough, I can't think of anything that really stands out. A murder here, a few lives taken there, and it adds up to be a lot, but there's no one thing that she's guilty of. Threatening David was a low point, sure, but she's done worse overall. If I had to pick one thing, though, I'd probably say killing Tom.
Tobias: Nobody else remembered that he made the call to wipe out an entire race? Anybody remember the Mercora? True, he had no choice, because it had 'already happened,' but he still made the call, and that was pretty cold.
Cassie: Giving Tom the morphing cube. Indirect as it may have been, I consider her, and not Jake, responsible for Tom and Rachel's deaths, since neither of them would have needed to die if Jake had been able to stop Tom (Jake wouldn't even have needed to kill him to get the cube back, IMHO). After that, Jake was just making the only decision available to him. And without Rachel dying, Jake wouldn't have been desperate enough to think of flushing the 17,000 yeerks, so Cassie shares some of the responsibility for those lives, too.
Marco: Shoving his own mother off a cliff.
Ax: Even considering allowing the Andalites to 'quarantine' earth in book 52. The fact that he considered dropping a nuke on one city doesn't even compare to the fact that he was actually thinking about betraying our entire freaking planet. To be honest, though, I really thought that book was out of character for him. He'd decided as early as book 18 that his loyalty lay with his human prince rather than any Andalite commander.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about Time of Dinos. Yeah, just because five kids had never heard of Mercora fossils, Tobias figured that asteroid had to be THE asteroid. I'd count that.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about Time of Dinos. Yeah, just because five kids had never heard of Mercora fossils, Tobias figured that asteroid had to be THE asteroid. I'd count that.
So would I. I knew someone would think of something for him.
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Dinos...
That book never happened >:(
Jake's is obvious, and Cassie's is a flamewar, so I'll skip those.
Rachel: You guys remember when she took command and almost got everyone killed? I'd call that "unethical." What else do you call refusing to listen to the considered counsel of her teammates because of pride and nothing else?
Tobias: Not ratting out Ax, or at least pressuring him to come clean, when he realized what the Andalites were up to before anyone else.
Marco: I don't regard pushing his mother off a cliff as "unethical," unless we express similar ire for every time the Animorphs killed a Hork-Bajir involuntary. It's the same principle. Indeed, refusing to kill her of all Yeerks because of personal reasons would be more unethical. No, my vote for that is when he made no effort at all to save Nora, knowing that she was almost certainly an innocent bystander and from an ethical perspective deserved no worse than his father.
Ax: Obvious: not coming clean about the Andalite plan (or at least his suspicions) until it was almost too late.
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Yeah, forgetting about Nora and telling a lie to his dad about her already being a controller was pretty bad. Just because you want your family back the way it was doesn't undermine Nora as a person, especially since she wasn't even a bad person. she had a volatile dog, but I don't think there was ever any negative thing about her character. She was just Marco's replacement scrappy, as it were.
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Yeah, I agree about Nora too. Does anyone think Erek has a most unethical moment?
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Draining the pool ship's power and neglecting to mention the Howler's being child-like are both pretty unethical choices for Erek.
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Rachel: You guys remember when she took command and almost got everyone killed? I'd call that "unethical." What else do you call refusing to listen to the considered counsel of her teammates because of pride and nothing else?
Haha, speaking of books that never happened . . . :P
Yeah, I totally forgot about that one. But, I dunno, I probably forgot about that because I think that book was out of character for Rachel. Yes, she always takes huge risks, I realize that. But she really only risks herself, and her own life and limb. She doesn't ever make stupid decisions that put anybody else in danger (at least, not when she has a chance to think about it first), and in fact, will often put herself stupidly in danger to help one of her friends. So I thought that book was way off base with how she would act if she were made leader.
Draining the pool ship's power and neglecting to mention the Howler's being child-like are both pretty unethical choices for Erek.
Well, according to him, he didn't neglect to mention about the Howlers. He says he didn't know. Apparently, their emotions, their persona or whatever, didn't come across in the version of their memories that he 'downloaded.' Kind of makes sense, I guess. Crayak could have found a way to compel the Howlers not to knowingly share that part of themselves, lest others realize their secret Achilles heel. So they might have left that out of the memories that they sold to the Iskoort.
If you ask me, Erek's most unethical choice was throwing away the Pemalite crystal. Yeah, so the Chee are against fighting, and to some extent, I respect that. Hell, I'm even a bit jealous of the fact that they can honestly say that they had never taken another life (until that one day Erek went berserk). But when a sentient species is being enslaved, can you really justify standing back and doing nothing?
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It wasn't there war.
So, yea, it's justifiable.
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Who's to say it wasn't their war? Was Earth not their homeworld now? did they not have a responsibility to the Pamelite's essences in the dogs? Or the Pamelite's ideals of life and peace?
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Who's to say it wasn't their war? Was Earth not their homeworld now? did they not have a responsibility to the Pamelite's essences in the dogs? Or the Pamelite's ideals of life and peace?
The Pemalite world was their home world. Earth was a new home, sure, but it can't be considered a homeworld. Sure, the Chee feel a connection to the dogs, but is that to say they feel the same way towards the violent humans? Was it not a Chee named Ionos who told Erek that they should butt out of the Yeerk-Andalite war?
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Just because you're a spectator doesn't mean you're unaffected by what you're watching. You can either hide away and hope things turn out ok, or you can try to do something about it. Though I guess they could have taken their ship and run, but running away from your problems is usually a bad thing.
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If they were to be involved in any war it should have been the one that was brought to the Pemalite home world.
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Erek knew the Howlers were children. In the scene where Jake asks if he did, his only response is 'they slaughtered my masters'.
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On the matter of the Chee, there are eleven books worth of stuff they could have done to help the Animorphs that didn't involve fighting. As far as I'm concerned, treating the Earth like it's the couch of the galaxy for a billion years and not making a greater effort to keep it safe from the Yeerks is a pretty weak move.
They could have projected a hologram to hide the Earth completely. Screwed with the Yeerk computers so that Earth appeared to be uninhabited or heck with it. Since we know the Chee knew about the invasion long before Elfangor arrived on Earth, the Chee could have assisted with the escape of the involuntary human and Hork-Bajir controllers so that everyone could have survived it instead of a non-descript woman.
So the collective excuse about not being able to interefere but wanting to doesn't sit with me. We know the Chee have freewill, or they wouldn't have been able to choose to leave the Pemalite homeworld.
As for unethical decisions, I can't add anything to the current batch that hasn't all ready been mentioned. So I'll go with some characters who haven't been mentioned.
Elfangor: Jettisoning a Yeerk in stasis close to a sun.
Seerow: Dismissing the Hork-Bajir because of his own bad experiences with the Yeerks.
Alloran: Do I need to go there with this one?
Aldrea: Acting high and mighty about the Andalites and how they acted on the Hork-Bajir homeworld but treating Cassie like a hand puppet.
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They could have projected a hologram to hide the Earth completely.
How do you know that's within their capabilities? Just because you can project a hologram the size of a valley doesn't mean you can hide an entire planet.
Screwed with the Yeerk computers so that Earth appeared to be uninhabited or heck with it.
How do you know they could do that without being on Yeerk ships? And once they are on Yeerk ships, Yeerks already know Earth is inhabited.
Since we know the Chee knew about the invasion long before Elfangor arrived on Earth, the Chee could have assisted with the escape of the involuntary human and Hork-Bajir controllers so that everyone could have survived it instead of a non-descript woman.
How do you know they didn't? They might just have not succeeded very visibly.
Post Merged: January 30, 2011, 04:29:06 PM
On the subject of Erek: It isn't quite a "choice," but I thought it was pretty funny how he got all up in Jake's face about manipulating his programming after the Animorphs blew up their own hometown and Erek didn't give a rip. I mean, come on, jackass: your precious programming is not more important than the thousands of innocent lives of our neighbors we just ended.
About the crystal: if you remember, he didn't throw it away; he gave it back to the Animorphs and they threw it away. Which was a real "derp" moment, I think: here you have a computer more powerful than anything the Yeerks have ever seen, and you just toss it into an ocean. You could have used it for other things, geniuses. And what if another Chee, reviewing Erek's experiences, decides that he or she could deal with being a killer and wanted to help the Animorphs out?
Joe Chee: Hey guys, I know this is kind of sudden, but I want to rewrite my programming. I want to fight the Yeerks.
Animorphs: Um...
Joe Chee: I know it's a terrible thing I'm agreeing too. I know I can't even imagine how hard it's going to be. But I've lived for ten thousand years in the background, and you know, I think it's about time I stepped up to the plate.
Animorphs: Well....
Joe Chee: I've spent months pouring over Erek's memories. They were horrible, and in the end, experiences like that might just destroy me. But that doesn't matter. My creators had the best of intentions, but the best intentions didn't save them from being ruthlessly murdered. I know that it's people like you, people who are willing to fight and kill, that lets people like me go on living in peace. If other people have to deal with being helpless slaves and victims, then I can deal with being a killer. That's the choice I want to make.
Animorphs: You know...
Joe Chee: So, if you could give me the Pemalite crystal, I can join your team.
Animorphs: Yeah, about that...
Joe Chee: What?
Animorphs: We kind of... threw it in the ocean.
Joe Chee: ...
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Yeah, I'm not sure why they threw it away either. Not like the Chee are capable of changing their minds or anything. On the other hand, they've probably sat in the back and watched thousands of wars by the time the series started. Good thing the Yeerks never found it again, as well.
It's also odd that Erek never said anything about the Anis blowing up the pool.
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How do you know that's within their capabilities? Just because you can project a hologram the size of a valley doesn't mean you can hide an entire planet.[/quote]
There's a good deal more than one Chee on the planet. It's fair to say that they can collectively create a convincing enough illusion that would make David Blain wet himself.
How do you know they could do that without being on Yeerk ships? And once they are on Yeerk ships, Yeerks already know Earth is inhabited.
For the most part Yeerk technology is heavily inspired by or outright taken from either the Andalites or some other species. And whatever original inventions they came up with themselves were weak enough to be trashed or thwarted by five humans using Andalite technology and an Andalite aristh who thought a satellite communication program was an educational game.
The Pemalites were building Z-space ships when the Andalites were just barely discovering fire.
That said, it's fair to say the Chee could sneaky, sneaky aboard a Yeerk ship during the early stages of the invasion and create just a teensy bit of mischief without being noticed and without causing harm. Drain the weapons like they did in book 53, cause a ton of poltergiest like mischief and freak them out enough to consider the invasion just not worth it.
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There's a good deal more than one Chee on the planet. It's fair to say that they can collectively create a convincing enough illusion that would make David Blain wet himself.
"Fair" based on what? Do you know how Chee hologram technology works?
For the most part Yeerk technology is heavily inspired by or outright taken from either the Andalites or some other species. And whatever original inventions they came up with themselves were weak enough to be trashed or thwarted by five humans using Andalite technology and an Andalite aristh who thought a satellite communication program was an educational game.
The Pemalites were building Z-space ships when the Andalites were just barely discovering fire.
Technology isn't magic, and it doesn't necessarily advance in a linear fashion (look at our own history). Without direct indication of a specific capability, it is unreasonable to assume that someone possesses that capability based only on how old the civilization is. And the only time I recall Erek helping the Anis with computer stuff was when the Andalite rejects landed on Earth and he hacked their computer: he was physically there when he did so.
That said, it's fair to say the Chee could sneaky, sneaky aboard a Yeerk ship during the early stages of the invasion and create just a teensy bit of mischief without being noticed and without causing harm. Drain the weapons like they did in book 53, cause a ton of poltergiest like mischief and freak them out enough to consider the invasion just not worth it.
Any "mischief" they try to create has to be balanced against the possibility that they would get caught and then everyone would be even more screwed than they were before.
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We are getting off topic. But I will answer this post and then lets move on. You believe the Chee were right, I believe not so.
"Fair" based on what?
Based on the fact that they tricked the crew of an Empire One Nova ship into believing that they were incinerating the free Hork-Bajir. Titles may not sound all that impressive, but Empire One sounds like it's run by fairly competent branches of the Yeerk Empire. So it'd be even fairer to assume that the Chee could project an equally convincing hologram that would likewise flummox the Yeerks and make them turn tail and run.
Do you know how Chee hologram technology works?
Are you saying you do?
Technology isn't magic, and it doesn't necessarily advance in a linear fashion.
Never said it was. Never said it did.
Without direct indication of a specific capability, it is unreasonable to assume that someone possesses that capability based only on how old the civilization is.
The Pemalites built a ship that could withstand the strength of the deepest part of Earth's ocean. They created a sentient race of Androids that can obviously choose to at some point rewrite their programming if the opportunity arises.
That's not assuming it's advanced because it's older. It's taking what is presented to us and forming a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. We see that the Chee can choose for themselves. We see that they debate amongst each other and have varying degrees of opinion.
So you're telling me the Chee who can choose to put the Animorphs in harms way by asking them to get the crystal that will change their programming, can't also choose to hop aboard a Bug fighter and run loose once they get to the Mother Ship? Oh, and the Chee who act as Controllers can fool the Gleet Biofilters. The devices that won't even let a fly through. That's a fraction of how well the Chee can screw with Yeerk technology, which is again, stolen from the Andalites. As Ax tells us, not as I'm imagining.
And the only time I recall Erek helping the Anis with computer stuff was when the Andalite rejects landed on Earth and he hacked their computer: he was physically there when he did so.
And that was actually the Chee playing Erek's father, Mr. King. They "rescued" Mr. King from interrogation by the Yeerks and he hacked the ship as a favor to Ax.
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We are getting off topic. But I will answer this post and then lets move on. You believe the Chee were right, I believe not so.
Nope. You can't order me to stop posting. I don't think the Chee were "right," I think they were not capable of some of the things that you are suggesting.
Based on the fact that they tricked the crew of an Empire One Nova ship into believing that they were incinerating the free Hork-Bajir. Titles may not sound all that impressive, but Empire One sounds like it's run by fairly competent branches of the Yeerk Empire. So it'd be even fairer to assume that the Chee could project an equally convincing hologram that would likewise flummox the Yeerks and make them turn tail and run.
You missed the point. The point is scale. One human can throw a ball ten feet in the air with his arm. Can six billion humans throw a ball into orbit with just their arms?
The Pemalites built a ship that could withstand the strength of the deepest part of Earth's ocean. They created a sentient race of Androids that can obviously choose to at some point rewrite their programming if the opportunity arises.
You are listing capabilities that have nothing to do with the capability you claimed: disguising the entire Earth. 500 years ago, no human-built heavier-than-air craft could fly. Also, 500 years ago, no one could fly to another star. Now we can do one of those things, but not the other. Disguising a valley a couple of km^2 is a million times less impressive than disguising the whole surface of the Earth. 500 years ago, no one could hack a modern computer. Also, 500 years ago, no one could hack a modern computer from ten miles away with no physical or wireless connection. Now we can do one of those things, but not the other. Hacking an Andalite computer while you are physically there is less impressive than hacking a computer in orbit.
As for sneaking on board the Yeerk ships and messing things up: yeah, maybe they could do that. I don't know.
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We had computers 500 years ago?
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No; that's part of the point.
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We had computers 500 years ago?
Making it even more impressive if someone could do that! Stretching imagination, hacking, from the past, to what we call now a modern (2011) computer wirelessly. Sorry to carry on the derailing of the original topic XD
As a group decision (rather than the assumed individual character by OP) maybe trapping David as a rat (the bottom rung of the food chain) or enlisting the help of what is perceived as society's undesirables with full knowledge that there is an undeniably high possibility of certain death.
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Talking about Erek's most unethical moments isn't completely off topic, since he's one of the most developed side characters.
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Yeah I know and I do really like how topics twist and turn ^^
I was just choosing the decision that wasn't chosen given the parameters of the topic! Imo, Erek's morals whilst based on a sentient specie doesn't necessarily indicate that he should have the same ethics. Debatable but the ethics of alien cultures should have some more variability.
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Considering that for every Yeerk they killed they killed an innocent, every injury they inflicted was immoral, though unfortunately they had little choice on the matter.
They probably killed a large number of Hork-Bajir and humans. All of them (apart from maybe the occasional human) were innocent.
Still, things had to get worse before they got better.
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Talking about Erek's most unethical moments isn't completely off topic, since he's one of the most developed side characters.
No, but we're moving from Erek's ethics to the technical specifications of an alien built android species and comparing it to human development. I'll gladly start another topic about how oranges are similar to apples in the General board, I just didn't want to keep arguing about it in here.
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Ok, we all know the Animorphs and a few other characters all crossed these at some point in the series. My question to all of you, my fellow RAFians, is WHEN do you think the characters crossed them? I'll explain mine down below. But first I think I should warn you that what some might consider a Moral Event Horizon, I don't. For example: Alloran killing all the Hork-Bajir could be seen as a justified act, since both A) It was killing Yeerks, and B) Better dead than a Controller anyway, at least to most. And Jake flushing 17,000 Yeerks I didn't view as a MEH (well, ok I did, but as a justified one) because we've lost PLENTY of innocent people, hell just to Visser Three's tail blade alone, so why shouldn't THEY suffer innocent people too? Fair play equals pay back. I lose an eye, I take out the eye of the person who did that. Yeah, I know I have warped views of the world, but at least I can admit it. But enough about me! Here's my MEH moments.
Jake: While flushing the Yeerks into space is, like I said, justified in my mind, it DOES still count as a Moral Event Horizon.
Rachel: I can't remember if Rachel ever crossed it. I guess her LOVING fighting and killing and hurting IS her MEH.
Tobias: Some might consider him killing all the Mercora as a MEH, but for me, that's not as bad as when he ripped out that Controller's eye in #9. The Secret. Discussed in another topic.
Cassie: Where to begin! Cassie, interestingly, has a lot of them, despite being the series' most "moral" person. But I'd have to say erasing John B. is the biggest she's committed. She doesn't know if there's an afterlife or spirits. Does that destroy the spirit too? We'll never know.
Marco: Hmmm... Marco, despite being the most ruthless, has very few, but I'd have to say when he was about to kill Karen and his mother, which didn't succeed in any case, so one could argue it was an Aborted Moral Event Horizon.
Ax: Ah, Ax! Probably when he threatened to nuke that town. Or when he CONSIDERED letting the fleet toast Earth. Open for debate.
Anyone have any others?
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I think I already made a thread about this topic recently. Granted it is at the bottom of page 3, but here's the link.
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7359.0
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Really? Ok, could you ask a staff member to delete it?
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One of them is bound to notice and lock/delete this.
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Ok then.
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Topics merged.
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Ah ok thanks. And to amend my earlier statement: I think Rachel's was when she wanted to go after Aftran with such cold-bloodedness.
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author=Nar Klawip link=topic=7359.msg560546#msg560546 date=1296327343]
Dang, you beat me to it Chad
Jake: flushed 17,372 Yeerks without warning
Marco: set up his mom to die, then tried to kill her
Cassie: trapping David, erasing John Berryman from existence, taking a host as a Yeerk, making Ax into a controller
Letting Tom take the morphing cube (end of book 50).
Cassie had put Aftran into ax so that Aftran could find the about to expolde Tria gland.
Rachel: threatening David and his family
Ax: threatened to drop a nuke on the yeerk pool, which would destroy the entire town
Tobias: hmm, cant really think of anything right now
Megamorphs 2:Condemning the Mercora to death by comet 65 million years ago.
MM4: Becoming a Controller.
Quote from: Chad32 on January 30, 2011, 04:33:42 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure why they threw it away either. Not like the Chee are capable of changing their minds or anything. On the other hand, they've probably sat in the back and watched thousands of wars by the time the series started. Good thing the Yeerks never found it again, as well.
It's also odd that Erek never said anything about the Anis blowing up the pool.
Can't the Chee recover the Permalite crystal? After all, they have no difficulties traveling underwater! Erek once dashed from his house to 3 miles underwater in 10 minutes!