Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: BaronConall on April 11, 2010, 09:01:16 AM
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At the risk of a collective groan and people crying "Another Morphing Cube thread?!" I was recently thinking about how the morphing cube actualy worked.
I checked most of the other threads on the cube and since most of them haven't been active since '09, I figured I'd start a new topic.
Ok, so we all know that K.A. likes to leave things up to our imagination, so I was just gonna throw my theory out there and y'all can add your 10 cents worth if you feel it's worth your while.
Basically, I've been thinking of the Escafil Device as using a form of nano-technology. The tingling that you feel when touching the box would be along the lines on nanites entering your body through skin cells and proceeding to replicate throughout the host body. At this point they sync with the host brain waves, which allows the host to send three simple commands: Aquire, Morph and Demorph with an extension to the first and second command lines, being where to aquire from (Aquire through hand) and which animal to morph. (Morph ________)
In that sense, with the nanites being so ridiculously small (a Helmacron would need a microscope), aquiring DNA would simply be the act of sending the Aquire command, at which point the nanites are released through the skin and gather either genetic material or samples from the subject, storing the information and transmitting the data aquired to the other nanites within the host body.
While this his happening, the nanites also broadcast on a certain neuro-wavelength, placing the subject into a dolcile, drowsy state while the host aquires genetic information.
Once aquired, the host sends the Morph _______ command and the innumerable nanites that are not only spread throughout the hosts bloodstream, but also the hosts skin cells, hair, organs and muscle tissue, immediately set to work reorganising the genetic structure of the commanding host, altering everything from skin pigmentation to bone structure. This whole time the nanites disable key points within the hosts nervous system, preventing them from experiencing the pain associated with altering the host at every level, right down to their genectic structure.
At this point, depending on the mass of the subject being morphed, the nanites either send or gather matter into or from Z-Space.
When morphing a larger subject, matter is gathered from Z-Space by the nanites and added to the mass of the host, whereas morphing a smaller subject requires the nanites to send matter, as well as a certain amount of nanites, into Z-Space until the Demorph/Return command is given, at which point the nanites within the host remotely summon the discarded nanites and matter from Z-Space, with the discarded nanites broadcasting a locator signal through Z-Space until they are called to return.
The reason behind the 2-hour morphing clock would be because, being nanites, they would have no long-term sustainable power source. While in the Escafil Device, the nanites remain in hibernation-mode until called upon, whereupon they enter a host body, using enzymes, chemicals and constantly regenerating cellular tissue within the host body in order to function, while simultaneously maintaining such a balance within the host body that they do not deprive it of chemicals/enzymes, etc.
While storing excess mass in Z-Space, the nanites are running off reserve power with nothing to fuel them and a battery life of 2 hours, after which time they lose power and are lost, hurtling through Z-Space and ending up anywhere in the universe.
When morphing a larger subject, however, the nanites, having stored the bio-data of not only the hosts form, but also the genetic data of all aquired subjects, are retaining the data of the original host form, as well as keeping Z-Space matter tethered to the host, allowing for its increased mass. Since nanite numbers cannot exceed the number of nanites that are sustainable within the original host form, the nanites are required to physically tether Z-Space matter to the host so as not to spread throughout the morphed-host body, producing more nanites to cater to the hosts now-enlarged form. During this time they cannot collect enzymes to fuel themselves and, again, switch to reserve power. After 2 hours, the nanites shut down from lack of power and the excess Z-Space matter is permanently anchored to the host in the process as a final fail-safe command to prevent the host from dying due to the sudden loss of large quantaties of matter.
This would also explain why a nothlit cannot recieve the morphing ability from another Escafil Device, as the nanites would recognise the presence of other nanites and consider the nothlit to already be morph-capable.
Oookaaayyy... That was a lot longer than I though it would be.
Despite what y'all may think, I haven't actually spent that much time thinking about this :P I was mostly typing it as it came to me, so I'm sorry in advance if it doesn't make much sense.
What do y'all think? Sounds good? Or do y'all think I'm just talkin' crap? :P
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No idea if this is how it might work in the series, but this is a fascinating theory, very interesting. My only thought against this theory is that the Yeerks would either have known about the nanites or at least been able to figure it out, which would likely have lead to them developing an EMP weapon to disable the nanites. Although it's possible the Anti-Morphing Ray was able to "hack" the nanites and force a demorph.
If you wrote a fic using this idea I'd definitely give it a read.
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This is an excellent theory. I love it, and I find nano-tech extremely interesting.
One question, though: how do the nanites communicate with Z-Space?
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One question, though: how do the nanites communicate with Z-Space?
The nanites in Z-Space essentially use a minute form of the Z-Space transponder[spoiler] that Marco's dad helps build and Ax uses to contact the Andalite fleet.[/spoiler]
It would mostly be the reason that the nanites burn through the same amount of power in a smaller morph as a larger one. In the larger form, they're using a Z-Space tether, whereas in the smaller, they're using a transponder. They basically would have the same functions, just inverted.
Z-Space Tethering would be calling to Z-Space to gather the required matter, while Z-Space Transponders would be calling from Z-Space to keep track of stored matter.
While the nanites don't actually communicate with Z-Space, they essentially open a small doorway into Z-Space in much the same way as an Andalite ship does. Since they are already perfoming such monumental tasks already, it would be a bit much to expect them to be able to choose where in Z-Space they store/borrow matter.
Because of this, they would gather matter from a random point in Z-Space , temporarily storing the matters location/origin so that everything can be returned to it's original place once the host demorphs.
Gah, I think this is one of those explanations that gets less believable and more fantastic with each successive explanation. :P
Although it's possible the Anti-Morphing Ray was able to "hack" the nanites and force a demorph.
I was thinking that the AMR would broadcast on a broad neuro-wavelength, forcing the target involuntarily produce the Demorph command. Then, depending on if there is the presence on nanites and the target is morphed, demorphing is induced. Almost like inducing a seizure.
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fascinating. i think you've thought this through more than KA did. :D
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Haha not really :P
As I say, I kinda had the idea of nano-technology just as a basic idea. I never really thought about how it would work in-depth until now.
80% of everything in this thread was typed as it came to me, especially my response to Terenia :-\
I have an active imagination :P
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I'm going to force your active imagination to get to work again. The nanotechnology theory works pretty well for organic matter, but hat about clothing, piercings and tattoos? I'll admit that your theory does take care of the ever present weight and hair length issues, but what of that which is on the body? And why can the nanites work with spandex but not, say, jeans?
Sorry if I'm making you think too hard. :)
I also apologiz for any typos. Using my phone.
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Haha, that's okay.
The only way I can think to explain that (without a cop out Legendary Frog-esque "Plot device, Mr. Frodo") is host synchronisation.
Andalites aren't as self-conscious as humans and don't need clothing to cover-up, whereas humans do. Despite this, Andalites also saw the potential for the Escafil Device to be used as an infiltration device and recognised that other species use certain materials and brandings to represent rank or station. So, instead of forcing Andalite Spies to perform a little on-site uniform gathering, they allowed the nanites to have a small side function. Namely, being able to manipulate skin cells, enzymes, etc on an atomic level (think of it as fashion alchemy) to create basic materials and colour pigments not originally present on the host body.
As Elfangor shows in the Andalite Chronicles, upon viewing Lauren's "loose skin" (shirt), Andalites have never encountered such heavily clothed species before. Because of this (and the fact that most human clothing has little contact with the skin), the nanites were designed to make more form-fitting material (such as the tight blue bands on the blue band Hork-Bajir).
This means that, initially, the Animorphs can only morph form-fitting spandex and why their attempts at shoes result in something similar to a puppy tug-of-war.
Clothing isn't entirely beyond the nanites means, however. In much later books it is stated that the Animorphs are able to demorph into slightly looser apparel. Once again, this is down to host sync. The Animorphs have been morphing a long time, and as time has passed they have learned to morph faster by becoming more adept at sending the required mental commands to their specific nanites, much in the same way that recent technology allows quadraplegics (and even gamers) to use wheelchairs and computers with neuro-impulse translators. Basically, practice makes perfect.
Because of this ability to decide on morph clothing and colour, it should be possible to demorph and keep tattoos, by concentrating on key points in the body and specific skin pigmentation. But once again, this would come down to synchronisation.
Basically, you'd be trying to form a clear picture of the tattoo and its location on your body, which would require a lot of mental concentration. The matter of piercings would be another thing altogether (turning skin cells into surgical steel [an alloy, no less] requires a lot more skill than spandex and cotton. It would be like turning skin into gold).
Phew :o
Hope I'm not getting too far-fetched here :P
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Haha... you're awesome. This theory is actually pretty solid, but not perfect. I'm especially into the idea of the nanites tunneling into Z-space on the micro-scale in order to exchange mass- that actually makes a lot of sense with what we know of Andalite technology. I do see a bit of an issue with information storage; even a compressed "file" of an animal is going to take up a ton of space, and even quantum-storage nanites, I think, would run out of space fairly quickly.
I'd say that, with this theory, and the number of animals the Animorphs acquired, the nanites may actually have a way of storing the information in the apparent inherent mass in Z-space. Each nanite would be tethered to a given bit of Z-space mass, and would use that both as the information storage and as extra mass to call on for large morphs.
Also, I'm not crazy about having different standards for large and small morphs for the 2-hour timer, and from book 18 I got the impression that typically, time does not pass for the Z-space mass of a morphed body while the user is in morph, so I've got a different proposal there- see if it sounds reasonable. My thought is that it's this time-differential that causes the trapping in morph. When you morph an animal, some (probably most) of the nanites are sent into Z-space, since they are not present in the acquired animal, with only enough nanites retained in the morphed body to be able to make contact with the bulk of them in Z-space. After 2 hours, it becomes too difficult to bridge the temporal gap back to the moment you morphed, and the majority of the nanites are lost forever, along with any ability to return to your original form.
I really dig your thinking on this one. Very cool, and you're not getting hung up on the whole "DNA" thing that they always mention in the books, which seems to kill more theories than it helps.
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now if only Z-space actually existed...
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How do we know it doesn't? ;)
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Each nanite would be tethered to a given bit of Z-space mass, and would use that both as the information storage and as extra mass to call on for large morphs.
This actually sounds pretty plausable to me, converting mass into a sort of quantum-computer. But it would kind of clash with your second theory, implying that the nanites are indefinately tethered to Z-Space mass via the temporal gap that you mentioned.
Maybe the nanites (being as numerous as blood or skin cells throughout the body, essentially) are each assigned specific morph data individually? One nanite processes only one set of genetic data. That way, when the Morph ________ command is given, that individual nanite is triggered, transmitting the desired genetic data to the rest of the nanites within the host for tempporary use/storage.
It could also be possible that individual genetic data is assigned to a small cluster of nanites, for the sake of processing and storage. This way, with the innumerable nanites within the bloodstream, skin cells and muscle tissue, the host would have near limitless genetic data storage capacity.
That way, it also doesn't conflict with your idea of Temporal Z-Space Tethering, which I actually quite like the sound of.
It does cause me to think though... If Andalites are capable of Temporal Tethering through Z-Space... does that mean they're on their way to building a Time Matrix? Or maybe they do build the Time Matrix and that's the one Elfangor found... :o
I think that one will need a seperate topic... And I can already see it getting very 12 Monkeys on us, with a lot of mention of Self-healing Paradoxes and the Grandparent Paradox... -_-'
("Doc, Doc!" ... "GIGAWATTS!!!")
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About storing information about the morphs:
We know that the acquired DNA is somehow stored in the blood of the morpher. When they morph, their original DNA is also stored in the morph's blood. In whatever form it is stored, it's possible to extract this DNA and analyze it. In #49, the yeerks found out the identities of the animorphs by doing this.
Going with the nanites idea, maybe they have little nano-capsules containing a morph's DNA (and/or other information) floating around in the bloodstream, which they access whenever they morph.
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We know that the acquired DNA is somehow stored in the blood of the morpher. When they morph, their original DNA is also stored in the morph's blood. In whatever form it is stored, it's possible to extract this DNA and analyze it. In #49, the yeerks found out the identities of the animorphs by doing this.
This is along the lines of what Phoenix004 was saying about being able to hack the nanites with the anti-morphing ray.
Instead of hacking the nanites with the ray and forcing a Demorph command, the Yeerks would have been hacking the nanites found within blood samples in order to access the host bio-data contained within the nanites.
Accessing the bio-data would give the Yeerks all they would need to run a genetic comparrison with other human blood samples gathered in the Sharing blood drive that occurs during that book. Depending on their computers, they may have even been able to produce a visual image of the nanites host form.
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I have a question. You stated that maintaining things like piercings and clothes are all based on concentration and practice. So then, is it possible, with immense focus, to create mass that was not there? Like picturing a person as being fatter, or wearing a different color shirt and then morphing them? If that would work, what's to stop a person from picturing the person being morphed wearing gold rings and such, and repeating the process to create and essentially drag matter out of z-space in the form of usable materials?
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The short answer would be Temporal Z-Space Tethering (+1 to Aluminator for his input. It just got me out of this situation! :P)
When you morph a subject that contains more/less mass, the nanites are gathering that mass out from Z-Space and keeping it tethered to you by maintaining a bridge across space-time, only capable of maintaining such a bridge for 2 hours at a time.
If you were to attempt to morph, say, a friend with gold piercings everywhere, the mass used for the piercings would be sent back to Z-Space upon demorphing.
Not to mention that unless you've actually had those piercings or are a piercer, it would be a little difficult to correctly place those piercings (eg. You would have off-centre labret or septum piercings).
As for demorphing into clothing or with piercings, with the spandex, the subject is creating that from their own bio-mass. They're litterally converting their own skin cells/muscle tissue/ etc into the spandex that they would need to wear. Because of the form-fitting, lightweight material that spandex is, they aren't actually sacrificing a great deal of bio-mass to do this (barely 1-2 kilos/pounds ... I know they're different weight measurements, but I'm trying to focus on one science at a time :P), the same with jewellery.
As for loose fitting clothing that can be morphed much later, they're still sacrificing their own mass to do so. Depending on how healthy the subject is, people will just think they're looking a little leaner lately.
In other words, if the subject were to demorph gold jewellery onto their body, they would essentially be selling off their own body to do so. Kind of like a tit-for-tat, quid pro quo, Equivalent Exchange rule.
So, it's relatively plausable, but you would have to posses that certain mind-set that would cause you to sit back and think "I'm going to go sell pieces of my body to make ends meet." :P
It's a little bit different to giving blood. :-\
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Y'know, I hated that theory at first, but the more I think about it, the more it grows on me. As of right now, I'm going to say it sounds pretty good, actually ^_^ That would go a long way towards explaining why they're so exhausted after multiple morphs in a row. They get better about that, too, later in the series, so maybe their technique does allow them to draw some additional mass from Z-space? Even with your explanation, Baron, I think ThinkAgain's money-making scheme might be plausible. Slow, exhausting, and horribly impractical, but plausible.
On the other hand, I don't think the books ever actually mention them morphing jewelry, and I've gone under the impression that it's just not possible. As for the clothing thing... the morphs almost have to be relying more on some stored image of what the morpher was like before morphing, as opposed to the morpher's concentration, otherwise the amateur Animorphs could never have morphed clothing. The nanites, at the moment morphing began, would create an "image" of the person and the area around them to a certain degree. I suggest that being able to morph clothing is a function of the technology interpreting the morpher's intentions, but building its own image. That way, even if you could morph jewelry, as soon as you morphed and took it off, a quick remorph-then-demorph wouldn't result in more jewelry, because the image of your human body that the nanites made before your second morph would no longer have the jewelry. It would be possible to draw in matter from Z-space and seemingly create something from nothing, but not via morphing technology, at least without a rewrite behind the basis of its function.
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I have the same opinion as you, Aluminator.
The whole jewelerry idea would be plausible but it was never actually addressed in the books. I always just assumed that after the first year (since they still wouldn't be very well synced) Rachael just got sick of re-piercing her ears and gave up.
Plus if I was gonna base morphing spandex from mass, there was no reasonable way for me that it couldn't be done without contradicting the morph suits.
They get better about that, too, later in the series, so maybe their technique does allow them to draw some additional mass from Z-space?
I don't know about this idea. Even if they were able to draw additional mass from Z-Space for better clothing when demorphing, this would also move towards negating the idea of a morph clock. If they could just permanently bring mass in from Z-Space and send it back whenever they wanted, you would think they would do so with larger morphs as well, staying morphed indefinately and sending the extra mass back to Z-Space when they really need to instead of have to.
As for the nanites storing an image of the host prior to morphing I was mostly basing the concentration idea off the fact that the nanites are storing a lot of genetic data already and don't have the processing power or the need for a visual representation (who would they show it too?) of the host, just their genetic snapshot at that point in time.
If the nanites were completely responsible for storing the image of the host or morphs, that would mean that morphing would be solely based on the nanites processing power, which would mean morhing would have one set 'speed', with the Animorphs being unable to morph faster in later cooks or puch themselves harder to morph faster like in certain books (such as Marco demorphing and morphing before he hits the ground in Megamorphs #1)
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Thing is, there has to be more than just genetic information stored. Many physical characteristics of an animal are not stored genetically- in fact, nearly all physical characteristics (height, weight, build, etc.) can be altered by environmental factors. I'm thinking the information stored might use genetics as a basis, but there still has to be additional information stored to keep track of what the subject is actually like. If it was just genetic, you'd probably just wind up morphing a fetus of the animal you acquired every time. The morphing technology allows you to become an exact replica of the animal you acquired. "Image" is figurative, of course, but there's still got to be a lot of additional information stored, even if you have the animal's entire genetic code.
Y'know, if, when they morph, they're wearing spandex, the mass of that spandex should theoretically be accessible for re-creating the spandex. No need to draw on their body mass at all. It also means that it'd be impossible to create more jewelry from a morph, simply because when you take it off, it's no longer part of your morph...
Haha... man, you know it's getting to be a fairly solid theory when we just have little stuff like this to nitpick...
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Haha, true, true ;)
I was actually thinking to myself that it'd make a lot of sense that the spandex mass could be recalled from Z-Space for demorphing. I guess we'll wait for someone else to run into the room, arms flailing and screaming "NOOOOOOOOO!!! RET-COOONNN!!!" before we start nitpicking that one. :P
I agree with you that there has to be more than just genetic storage. Maybe since the nanites are, for intents and purposes, completely throughout the host body, they may also store a little bit of side data. Muscle mass, BMI, folicle length, etc.
Nanites in the muscles record that specific muscles mass, nanites in body fat record the BMI, scalp for folicle length, etc, etc.
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If you had a single nanite capable of storing a creature's genetic code, surely you could fit all that additional information in two or three additional nanites, right? Which would be good, because you have to be able to store that information for literally dozens of animals at any given time...
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I feel like I need to chip in at this point and say how awesome this thread is. I always got irritated when one of the animorphs cuts off Ax when he technobabbles! Now I feel like we've figured it out!
I loved Marco's dads explanation of Z space. That was awesome.
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the nanite thing is the greatest explanation for morphing. it ties up the nothlit thing. but i wonder, if after 2 hours the nanites run out of power and the ones in z space loose contact, then how does the metamorphosis thing (in book 19) "reset the morphing clock?" using your theory this means the nanites are somehow re-powered by metamorphosis including the ones tethered in z space.
i would love to hear your thoughts on this. 8)
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B-
Well...
You see, the thing is...
Crap.
You hear that? It's the sound of steam running out -_-'
Ummm...
ELLIMIST APPLEGATE DID IT!!!
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Man, that really does kind of throw a kink in this theory. And probably every other possible morphing theory out there. Hmm...
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Ha!
Dude, for all intents and purposes, it throws a spanner in K.A.'s morphing theory, so I'm not really taking it to heart.
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Nah, we can totally cover this!
... What if we just say the Z-space connection of the nanites is only active during a transformation, allowing communication and mass exchange? We could do a combination of temporal Z-space tethering and limited power supplies to make this work. The nanites in Z-space need a connection to the nanites in real space to retain functionality and power, but that connection degrades after 2 hours, severing the link between the real-space nanites in the morphed body and the Z-space nanites in the morphed mass. Without the connection, the Z-space nanites are effectively dead, and a transformation can no longer take place.
However, due to the transformation of caterpillar to butterfly (a significant metamorphosis), the nanites in Cassie's butterfly body became active, and were able to reconnect with and thereby re-power the nanites of her morphed mass in Z-space, resetting the 2 hour timer and allowing Cassie to demorph.
Haha... I dunno. I'm just throwing stuff out there. Any of this sound remotely plausible?
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okay then now for the next question.
if the nanites are the ones that absorb the dna then what could cause a "morphing allergy?"(book 12)
a nanite glitch perhaps, which causes random morphing? then again it was triggered by rachael's emotions.
any thoughts?
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HOLY CRAP, DUDE!!!
THE VELEEK!!!
MORPH ENERGY!!!
The Veleek homed in on the Animorphs after the Visser gen-tuned it to seek out the energy that they give off when moprhing!
So: By that logic, wouldn't that mean that, while in Z-Space, the stored nanites/mass would use Morph Energy as their own Return Signal? The longer the host stays in morph, the more the Morph Energy signature dissapates, contributing to nanite loss and becoming a nothlit!
That would mean that the natural metomorphosis of the butterfly would trigger a surge of morph energy that would allow seperated nanites and mass to hone in of the temporal origin of the host!
YOU'RE A GENIUS!!!
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I like the way you put it much better, though. That is awesome, and it makes sense with everything involving the Veleek- like how morphs give off energy, but the morphing process gives off a lot more- and with Cassie's morph- the nanites interpret the transformation as a morph, assume some other nanite has started the process, and activate to assist in the process if signaled. That indicates that the nanites are probably not a constantly linked network, and, to conserve energy, only communicate with each other when morphing- they take the beginnings of the transformation as their signal to start receiving instructions from whatever nanites have been activated.
That, I think, could also go a long way towards explaining some of the anomalies with morphing, such as Rachel's allergy (The Reaction) and Marco's mixed-up combination morphs (The Proposal).
If the nanites weren't all transferred to Rachel properly when she got the morphing power, or one was damaged at some point, it could improperly record the crocodile DNA, and start sending mixed signals to the nanites, interpreting her emotional responses as a morphing command. The most efficient way to get that out of your body would be to let it morph and take all the crocodile nanites with it- hence her "burping" a full crocodile. So, yeah, essentially a malfunction or glitch, like Carlos was saying. In this theory, Rachel probably could have gone back to the zoo, reacquired the same crocodile (after she burped the first), and it would have been fine.
As for Marco's combo-morphs, if his concentration was shattered enough, he could potentially trigger two sets of nanites at once- if the ones for, say, a skunk were activated before they received the command to transform into a spider, you could get a combo-morph, but it's not something I see as likely to repeat often, and probably not something you could do consciously. At least, not without a lot of practice.
Baron, have I mentioned lately that I love your theory here? ;D
Okay, what other ridiculous morphing anomalies still need explaining?
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well how about painless morphing? do the nanites go and block pain signals from reaching the brain? they only block pain when they are morphing and not when they are demorphed. otherwise the animorphs couldn't feel pain at all.
then there's the helmacron thing when they were shrunk. acquiring new dna made them morph normal size. wouldn't the dna inside the nanites be unaffected by shrinkage? ;D
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Forgive me if this has already been said but, the morphs are mostly created via DNA for example in the experiment when Ax morphs a steer he still becomes a bull because being neutered dosen't change with DNA. So morphing would prevent you from acuiring those nifty blue bands you mentioned earlier.
Also an easier question if the nanites need a power source where do they get it and why would it run out in Z-Space and not in our reality.
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well how about painless morphing? do the nanites go and block pain signals from reaching the brain?
This was addressed fairly early into the topic. The nanites disable key points in the nervous system in order to prevent the pin of morphing.
So morphing would prevent you from acuiring those nifty blue bands you mentioned earlier.
Also an easier question if the nanites need a power source where do they get it and why would it run out in Z-Space and not in our reality.
As I stated in that post, you aren't actually acquiring the bands, you are converting your own mass and tissue into the material, sacrificing a small amout of mass to create a blue band or morph suit from your own genetic material.
The question of power was also addressed, since the nanites fuel themselves on the enzymes, skin cells and organic matter withing your body. For example, if you eat an apple, some of it goes towards fueling the nanites.
The nanites are essentially a new form of white blood cell, maintaining a set number within the body, forming a symbiosis in order to function.
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I'm still not a huge fan of the "converting your mass into the morphing suit" thing, but yeah, what he said.
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wait if the nanites are powered by your body or if you eat shouldn't there be no time limit?
yea you could argue the ones that stay with your mass in z-space are on limited power, but couldn't they use that mass as power? atleast for a couple more minutes.
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Because if the nanites consumed the mass stored in Z-Space, the would not be able to return the mass from Z-Space. They would once again need to borrow mass from Z-Space in order to sustain the host form, which would, in turn, result in a burn-out. The nanites would become confused, thinking that they were in a larger morph and glitch, leaving the host as a nothlit... Of the host.
You're right, nanites are powered by your body. And thanks to Aluminator, I can explain/ret-con this a little better.
In a smaller morph, the nanites are stored in Z-Space, as we well know. Now: We have previously mentioned Z-Space Tethering, yes?
While in Z-Space, the nanites are able to tether to the host form by locking onto a unique energy signature. Morph Energy. It's the trail of bread crumbs that they follow home.
After 2 hours in any given morph, the energy signature dissapates, and the nanites in Z-Space can't find a host to return to.
Because the nanites are being stored in Z-Space, time also has a different rate of flow. 2 hours for the host may be instantaneous for the nanites, in very much the same way that several hundered thousand light years is a mere half an hour for an Andalite ship.
This would mean that the nanites don't particualrly run any risk of losing power, more that they risk losing the location of when to return to. Morph Energy gives them a clear location, in our perception of time, of when/where to return to.
I hope this explains things a little better. :D
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I've been trying to figure out how consciousness is stored during the morphing process. You can't fit a human consciousness in a flea brain. You just can't. Would these nanites also be involved in brain mapping to keep our consciousness intact?
It all started when I got to thinking about thought-speak while in morph. Why should that be the case? At first, I thought maybe the nanites preserve a little bit of Andalite biology, the centers of the brain involved in thought speak. However, I now wonder if there isn't some sort of mapping going on as well as the nanites being able to send and receive thought-speak messages.
Poor Tobias. Everything he is would be mapped to little computer chips in his little bird brain. How does that work when he is in human morph? There would be two Tobias' in there. The regular one and the primitive mind that comes with the morph.
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Oooooohhhhhh...
Good question!
It's 5:47am here right now, so give me a chance to sleep and dream up a theory and I'll get back to you! :)
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makes me wonder too. i think the conciousness is converted into data, divided and put into numerous of the remaining nanites left when you morph small. cause the nanites are micro-micro-scopic and there could be millions on 1 flea.
then when they thought speak it just transmits a message to the other nanites with concious data inside them. either to 1 or many at a time. like private chat.
kinda how the ellimist divided his conciousness and put into various ships.(ellimist chronicles)
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That's probably the best theory. The consciousness obviously can't be stored in Z-space, or Tobias would have just been a hawk with no human thought after his 2 hours were up. These have got to be some pretty impressive nanites, probably with quantum-state information storage or better, but considering the two strongest areas of Andalite technology seem to be Z-space and computers, I think that actually makes a lot of sense.
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I'm thinking that the nanites involved in storing consciousness would stay in real space. I would think the nanites would be constantly mapping the mind of the morpher.
I wonder if the nanites aren't differentiated somehow. Some map the brain, some are thought-speak transceivers, some call mass from z-space, some send mass to z-space, some focus on holding the DNA patterns. I don't think any single nanite would be doing all these things or else... well, it's just ridiculous...
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That's a good point. With as small as these things would have to be, it's probably more reasonable to assume there are several different varieties floating around in the bloodstream...
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Ax proved me wrong.
From #21:
<The extra mass is extruded into Zero-space. Our own minds and brains are pushed into Zero-space and maintain contact with the morph by means of a ->
"What is he talking about?" David asked.
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I SO want to call BS on that one... if the mind in Z-space maintains contact with the body, why doesn't the mass? That one's tough to reconcile... though I suppose it's possible that the mind in Z-space continues to experience time at the rate of the body in normal space, while the morphed mass does not... because, if the mind is in Z-space, you wouldn't want any sort of temporal disconnect between it and the body. If that's the case, it doesn't seem like it'd be too much work for the Andalites to make some changes and eliminate the 2-hour time limit altogether, though in book 18, they didn't seem totally sure how the morphing technology worked, so there's that to consider. Maybe the mind itself is not physically contained in Z-space, somehow, but rather exists as nothing more than the mentality within Z-space itself, keeping it from being tethered to the Z-space timeline... Haha... oh, that's starting to sound like really bad sci-fi at that point, though...
Hey, Baron, how do we justify a Yeerk being able to morph a previously-morph-capable host body without injuring itself, such as in Visser 3's case?
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Oh god...
Here it comes... The "Time is relative" discussion where time is tethered to the self, not the form, and how time is self-healing, allowing any temporal disruption/delay to be ignored by temporal continuity...
*head a'splodes*
As for Esplin 9466 being able to morph while using Alloran as a host... I've pondered this too, recently.
When the chips were implanted in their head during the Hammerhead escapade, they couldn't morph flies, so I can't say that Esplin 9466 was temporarily accepted as an extension of the host form without making an allowance for the chips.
Unless I take into account that he is biological mass instead of artifical. Which negates morph suits.
...Unless the chips were encoded with a beta program of the Anti-Morphing Ray, negating any Morph commands in order to lessen the chance of Andalite infiltration?
Considering how long it would take to progress from beta-testing to field-testing of the Anti-Morphing signal, this isn't to hard to believe... But for my sake, let's say it IS...
The only real explanation I can give is: "When has a Yeerk morphed anything smaller than a bird?" The Visser has really been the sublte infiltration type, and Yeerks mould their bodies to suit the brain...
BUT... Hole in theory... Shark brains weren't large enough and Horse brains were hardly better...
So...
I don't know?
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Remember, data transmission through Z-Space is instantaneous, movement through it is not. The mind is able to maintain contact and control because it's just data, whereas morphing and demorphing constitutes movement through Z-Space. Then again, due to Z-Space shifting, that would make the limit random, so maybe they figured out a way to keep the mass in the same relative space, but the nanite's ability to do so is strenuous on their supply, and after two hours, they can no longer do it. But then, if morphing a larger animal borrows mass from Z-Space, it shouldn't matter...
KAA should have just avoided the whole thing and had morphing change the spacing of the atom the same way Honey I Shrunk the Kids did.
Visser 3 knows what he looks like, and is able to incorporate himself into the morph the same way the Animorphs do with the suits. They did not know what the chips looked like, so they couldn't incorporate them.
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This theory has some potential.
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Oh god...
Here it comes... The "Time is relative" discussion where time is tethered to the self, not the form, and how time is self-healing, allowing any temporal disruption/delay to be ignored by temporal continuity...
*head a'splodes*
Man, I second that...
Actually, do we ever hear about them morphing any solid objects? I can't recall a single instance of morphing jewelry, for example. The Yeerk "sinks into the crevices and contours of the brain" and we know from when Cassie morphed a Yeerk that they have no bones or solid structures at all. Maybe morphing is just incapable of transforming solid objects. That would explain the Yeerk thing. The Yeerk is essentially spandex, the chip is closer to shoes. Probably has to do with how far into the object the nanites are able to project a Z-space field or whatever we're calling it when they send/receive matter from Z-space.
Remember, data transmission through Z-Space is instantaneous, movement through it is not. The mind is able to maintain contact and control because it's just data, whereas morphing and demorphing constitutes movement through Z-Space. Then again, due to Z-Space shifting, that would make the limit random, so maybe they figured out a way to keep the mass in the same relative space, but the nanite's ability to do so is strenuous on their supply, and after two hours, they can no longer do it. But then, if morphing a larger animal borrows mass from Z-Space, it shouldn't matter...
That's actually a good point about transmissions being instantaneous. If you look at the mind of the morpher as being nothing more than data that is somehow stored in Z-space itself, it doesn't have to be tied to mass at all. If you say that the mass of the morph in real space and the mass of the morpher in Z-space occupy the same location, that would also explain the consistency of the time limit, though it does make me question Andalite Zero Space navigational techniques- they were passing THROUGH Earth on their way to the Leeran homeworld?
KAA should have just avoided the whole thing and had morphing change the spacing of the atom the same way Honey I Shrunk the Kids did.
Y'know, I've always had a problem with that. If you did that, wouldn't you have the same mass? Those eighth-inch-tall kids should still have weighed like eighty pounds, and Rachel's elephant would be much less useful if she didn't gain any weight in the transformation.
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I can see this discussion unintentionally solving the problem of long distance thought-speak communication.
Andalites using a method of talking that's tethered more to self than the form implying a deeper understanding that all minds and consciousness are present in Z-Space rather than what we percieve to be the physical universe...
In which case... Did Z-Space just become Zen-Space?!
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Holy balls. That would solve basically every thought-speak anomaly I can think of...
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Hahahah! This is gold!
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Hey, points raised in the http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4996.30 thread lately raise an interesting question. We've decided that the majority of the nanites follow the morphed mass into Z-space upon morphing, so it makes sense that they're not losing morphs when they bleed out nanites in a battle, but the nanites would have to stay mostly in their blood stream while they're demorphed, right? Does that mean that if Cassie cuts her finger preparing a meal, that she could bleed out the nanite containing the data for her ****roach morph and lose the morph? How do you get around that? Is it as simple as just saying there are redundant copies of the information for each morph, or is that too silly and inefficient?
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Hey guys, I've just read through all four pages of this thread and i reckon you should go into Theoretical Physics!
Anyway, on to my point:
I'm not 100% sure which book, but in one, the Animorphs are going though the forest as wolves and Tobias notices that they are over their time limit, yet they still manage to morph back.
Any theories on that one?
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Well one possibility is that the clock that Tobias saw was just set to the wrong time. However, a discussion about the morphing time limit recently came up in the "Things the Animorphs would Never Say" thread and I had an idea.
Basically, my idea was that there really isn't an exact morphing time limit. It's not like at 1:59:59 in morph you can demorph easily and one second later you can't demorph at all. Rather, demorphing gets harder the longer you stay in morph. It starts to get really hard around 2 hours (hence why the Anis have a hard time demorphing when they cut it close) and at some point after that it becomes impossible. Though I would guess that it becomes practically impossible long before it becomes theoretically impossible.
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(book 3, I think, Hunter)
Yeah, and the temporal displacement between the Z-space and real-space mass of a morpher lends itself well to that theory. If that's how it works, it should just get more and more difficult as time goes on, becoming 'practically impossible' somewhere around the 2-hour mark.
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Hey guys, I've just read through all four pages of this thread and i reckon you should go into Theoretical Physics!
Anyway, on to my point:
I'm not 100% sure which book, but in one, the Animorphs are going though the forest as wolves and Tobias notices that they are over their time limit, yet they still manage to morph back.
Any theories on that one?
Cassie is both an estreen and a subtemporally grounded anomaly, maybe she used her "powers" for both that and to help marco get out of half flea mode?
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Cassie is both an estreen and a subtemporally grounded anomaly, maybe she used her "powers" for both that and to help marco get out of half flea mode?
What exactly is a subtemporally grounded anomaly? I know it's got something to do with alternate timelines (that was particularly important in MM4, if I recall correctly), but I don't know exactly what. Judging from the books where this comes into play, Cassie's subconscious never really accepts alternate timelines but tries to revert to the original one?
Back on topic, I've got some questions. I'm looking forward to explanations...
Clearly, the host's brain can't be brought into the morph's body, or tiny morphs (e.g. roach, fly, or flea) wouldn't be possible. Others have suggested that the host's consciousness is stored in nanites in the morph's body, but I have a couple of problems. First, how would the host control the morph's body if the host's entire consciousness is "embedded", if you will, in a bunch of molecules? Next, how can the host's full mental capacity come into the morph if the host's brain isn't even there? We can count out the brain areas for sensory perception, since the host is using the morph's brain for that, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume all the host's memory and mental abilities (thinking, decision-making, etc.) fit into tiny molecules. If that was possible, why do we have big brains when tiny molecules would suffice?
DNA can't store learned information, so where are the hosts getting, say, the hawk's ability to fly? Sure, some of that is the hawk's instinct, but a significant part is the hawk's learning. When the Animorphs morph, their morphs always "know" exactly how to do certain things (going back to the hawk example, the hawk morph knows exactly how to fly). So, are the nanites storing more than just the morph's DNA? That doesn't seem realistic, particularly for animals with big brains or animals that live a long time - storing DNA + memory is likely to require a lot of nanites, or very powerful nanites. Both ways have problems.
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A lot of it is speculation.
None of us can say that we know exactly what a Hawks instinct consists of, since the only mind we've ever known is a human one.
Secondly, brain size isn't relative to intelligence. By that logic, the Helmacrons and the Nesk (each being the size of/smaller than ants) should posses no intelligence at all. It is also scientific fact that women (sorry to get into the gender thing) have slightly smaller brains than men. This doesn't mean that they're any less intelligent, in fact women posses a greater natural affinity for mathematics and a faster rate of mental maturation than men.
It's wholly reasonable for anything with a brain smaller than ours to be as smart, if not smarter, than humans.
As for the "Subtemporally Grounded" question, you basically have to interpret it on the face value of the meaning of the word.
Temporality usually refers to Time, while 'Sub' comes from the latin word for Below, meaning Cassie is anchored to/beneath time.
That would mean that Cassie, kind of like the Nanites, is tethered to the timeline she orginates from. Any changes to her timeline/universe of origin that Cassie herself is not directly responsible for would result in the revelation of Cassie as a paradox within the altered timeline, causing the fractured timeline to begin to destabalize/heal.
I guess an analogy would be that Cassie is like Time's white blood cell, subconsciously recognising invasions in time and combating them in order to maintain the fragile structure of time itself.
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A lot of it is speculation.
None of us can say that we know exactly what a Hawks instinct consists of, since the only mind we've ever known is a human one.
That was just an example; sorry if I wasn't clear. My question was "how can the morph's brain come complete with learning, etc. since that isn't encoded in DNA?" Nanites might be able to store that information, but it would probably be fairly difficult.
Secondly, brain size isn't relative to intelligence. By that logic, the Helmacrons and the Nesk (each being the size of/smaller than ants) should posses no intelligence at all. It is also scientific fact that women (sorry to get into the gender thing) have slightly smaller brains than men. This doesn't mean that they're any less intelligent, in fact women posses a greater natural affinity for mathematics and a faster rate of mental maturation than men.
It's wholly reasonable for anything with a brain smaller than ours to be as smart, if not smarter, than humans.
Yeah, I know, but I don't think that explains how a person's entire mental capacity could be "compressed" into a bunch of nanites.
As for the "Subtemporally Grounded" question, you basically have to interpret it on the face value of the meaning of the word.
Temporality usually refers to Time, while 'Sub' comes from the latin word for Below, meaning Cassie is anchored to/beneath time.
That would mean that Cassie, kind of like the Nanites, is tethered to the timeline she orginates from. Any changes to her timeline/universe of origin that Cassie herself is not directly responsible for would result in the revelation of Cassie as a paradox within the altered timeline, causing the fractured timeline to begin to destabalize/heal.
I guess an analogy would be that Cassie is like Time's white blood cell, subconsciously recognising invasions in time and combating them in order to maintain the fragile structure of time itself.
That's a bit hard to get my head around, but I think I understand. Thanks for the explanation!
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Baron, you are awesome...
ghost, the hawk knowing how to fly is a good point... the acquiring process must take at least part of the animal's memories as well. The animals having memories in some of the early books (Homer and Fluffer both recalled the people around them) has been described as a KASU, but I don't think it has to be. I like to think that the morphing technology always stores some of the memories of the animal, but it cuts out more and more of them the more morphs you have to save on space.
As for being able to store an entire human brain inside a system of nanites- I'm all for the concept of quantum storage. Theoretically, if you were to get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (since we're talking about Andalites here, why not? :P), you could store and retrieve information from the states of quarks themselves, allowing a single molecule to store a decent amount of information. Our brains may be the most impressive information storage devices yet seen, but the neurons in which we store our information are still a heck of a lot larger than quarks. I'm not sure how much you could compress the information in our brains if you were to store it in this way, but it would be a significant decrease in space.
On the other hand, I'm kind of starting to like the idea of the morpher's brain somehow being imprinted on the fabric of Z-space itself, though how that would work is way beyond me... and not aided at all by my lack of knowledge as to the nature of Zero Space...
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ghost, the hawk knowing how to fly is a good point... the acquiring process must take at least part of the animal's memories as well. The animals having memories in some of the early books (Homer and Fluffer both recalled the people around them) has been described as a KASU, but I don't think it has to be. I like to think that the morphing technology always stores some of the memories of the animal, but it cuts out more and more of them the more morphs you have to save on space.
But how do the necessary memories get separated from the non-necessary memories?
Whenever the Animorphs morph into an animal with special abilities (e.g. a bird can fly, a seal or fish can swim, a monkey can swing through the trees), those abilities are always ready for use. Especially if more and more memories are being cut out as more morphs are acquired, picking the "right" memories to bring would be pretty difficult.
As for being able to store an entire human brain inside a system of nanites- I'm all for the concept of quantum storage. Theoretically, if you were to get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (since we're talking about Andalites here, why not? :P), you could store and retrieve information from the states of quarks themselves, allowing a single molecule to store a decent amount of information. Our brains may be the most impressive information storage devices yet seen, but the neurons in which we store our information are still a heck of a lot larger than quarks. I'm not sure how much you could compress the information in our brains if you were to store it in this way, but it would be a significant decrease in space.
Interesting. I don't visualize anyone getting past the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle anytime soon, but it might be possible eventually. Until then, it would probably still be possible (although maybe not practical) to store some of the brain's information. Once again, though, the question is "What should be saved, what should be lost, and why?"
Now we get into a whole new problem set, too, with potential memory loss. The nanites would somehow have to sync the host's brain with the nanites before morphing, then re-sync the nanites with the host's brain after de-morphing. Otherwise, some memories would be lost.
On the other hand, I'm kind of starting to like the idea of the morpher's brain somehow being imprinted on the fabric of Z-space itself, though how that would work is way beyond me... and not aided at all by my lack of knowledge as to the nature of Zero Space...
I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.
While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.
Thoughts?
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ghost, the hawk knowing how to fly is a good point... the acquiring process must take at least part of the animal's memories as well. The animals having memories in some of the early books (Homer and Fluffer both recalled the people around them) has been described as a KASU, but I don't think it has to be. I like to think that the morphing technology always stores some of the memories of the animal, but it cuts out more and more of them the more morphs you have to save on space.
But how do the necessary memories get separated from the non-necessary memories?
Whenever the Animorphs morph into an animal with special abilities (e.g. a bird can fly, a seal or fish can swim, a monkey can swing through the trees), those abilities are always ready for use. Especially if more and more memories are being cut out as more morphs are acquired, picking the "right" memories to bring would be pretty difficult.
Not necessarily. The memories a hawk uses for flight are going to be some of its most frequently-used, well-ingrained thought patterns. "Muscle memory," so to speak. What memories the acquiring process takes could simply be a matter of prioritizing the most used neural pathways more highly than the lesser-used ones.
As for being able to store an entire human brain inside a system of nanites- I'm all for the concept of quantum storage. Theoretically, if you were to get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (since we're talking about Andalites here, why not? :P), you could store and retrieve information from the states of quarks themselves, allowing a single molecule to store a decent amount of information. Our brains may be the most impressive information storage devices yet seen, but the neurons in which we store our information are still a heck of a lot larger than quarks. I'm not sure how much you could compress the information in our brains if you were to store it in this way, but it would be a significant decrease in space.
Interesting. I don't visualize anyone getting past the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle anytime soon, but it might be possible eventually. Until then, it would probably still be possible (although maybe not practical) to store some of the brain's information. Once again, though, the question is "What should be saved, what should be lost, and why?"
Now we get into a whole new problem set, too, with potential memory loss. The nanites would somehow have to sync the host's brain with the nanites before morphing, then re-sync the nanites with the host's brain after de-morphing. Otherwise, some memories would be lost.
True... it would be tricky to get right, but I think we can afford to give to give the Andalites that much credit ;D
On the other hand, I'm kind of starting to like the idea of the morpher's brain somehow being imprinted on the fabric of Z-space itself, though how that would work is way beyond me... and not aided at all by my lack of knowledge as to the nature of Zero Space...
I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.
Haha... actually, I'm pretty sure she did. It's just an equivalent to every other alternate-reality-where-FTL travel-is-possible in sci fi. The fact that it's not real doesn't help my lack of knowledge :P
While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.
Thoughts?
That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.
Post Merged: May 18, 2010, 10:59:49 AM
This discussion is from http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4996.30
yeah, yeah... you guys and bantering for the sake of bantering. i like simple, clean answers. loopholes aren't my imagination's personal playground. i'm just here for the post count. :P toemaytoes, toemahtoes.
lol
Loopholes are my imagination's personal playground. I've been bitten by too many loopholes in the past, so I've gotten fairly good at finding them. Makes for some interesting discussions, too.
hmmm.... WHAT IF.
since mass is apparently stored in Z-space, why can't all of the information about your "DNA copies" (or your other acquired morphs) be stored there as well? Or in a similarly "linked to everywhere in space" location as a sort of intergalactic server to which you become connected the instant you touch an escafil device? so, once you "acquire" an animal, you send the DNA information on that morph to a "server" that also manages and regulates the mass you end up getting when you morph that animal? as a specific user, you only have access to your "user profile", including those morphs tied to your DNA. maybe the DNA of these animals is "swimming in your bloodstream" (ell-oh-ell) at all times (a byproduct of the acquisition-morph process, which i theorize a little differently), but the data regarding how that DNA is "used and structured" (requiring more explanation, enter laziness here) is elsewhere and can't be lost.
Wouldn't that do away with the morphing clock, though?
There are two possibilities here. #1, "active server": the "server" uses energy, which means it'll eventually run out and nobody will be able to access their morphs' DNA anymore. Morphing over. #2, "passive server": the "server" never uses any energy, so there's no need to worry about how long you spend in morph. Unless...... what if there was a happy mix? An "active/passive server", which would draw energy from the host? That would explain why morphing tires the host. Come to think of it, though, that still doesn't explain the morphing clock. nvm, I punched a hole in my own ponderings.
this thread made me giggle; the (imhhhhho) absurdity of it all had something to do with it. Dx
Absurdity?
I really think there's some value there, to be honest. I'm probably going way too far ahead, but I also think this might eventually turn into real morphing tech.
also: laziness ftw. i'm not going to check, and i forget if this thread's also covered morphing clothes... as well as artistic morphing stuff (getting to the Ax book with Aloth et al, where that chick andalite Estrid can morph an entire set of clothes with shoes.... that has nothing to do with DNA but more with chemical compounds and, uhh... how on earth do you acquire clothes?).... but yeah. has someone addressed this?
edit: i checked. no one's addressed this. someone tell me how clothes fit into the mix.
Yes, it's been addressed.
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg387064#msg387064 (http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg387064#msg387064)
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg387223#msg387223 (http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg387223#msg387223)
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg385699#msg385699 (http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg385699#msg385699)
http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg385730#msg385730 (http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4957.msg385730#msg385730)
We should really take this to the Escafil Device thread, since we're now totally off-topic in this one.
that's why i said it. because it's true. D: i read minds, you see. ...or it was ridiculously obvious. you guys are predictable? O____o?
everyone gets bitten by loopholes. my solution is not to limit myself to playing by the rules of the ones who establish the loopholes, but to use the bigger picture as a source of alternatives to cover my ass.
anyhoo, i've already covered the "off-topic" thing, but that's apparently not stopping us. so here i am, still posting off-topic things.
about the morphing clock: you and i are speaking of different things. by which i mean to say, you and i relate the morphing clock and what i envision as a "server" in different ways and, in speaking of it, are totally missing each other, i think. pretty much, whatever it is that bridges the interdimensional gap between z-space, people, and mass (and i don't think it's "nanites"- what a security mess...), the thing that forces a human two-hour (convenient, eh? earth time, exactly two hours?) time limit isn't related to a server expiring. who knows what kind of energy is inherent in z-space mass? (e=mc^2?) so maybe your server uses energy... but also produces energy for itself as a byproduct of the morphing process.
also, no one's really discussing the logistics and energy required to convert z-space mass into people mass. O____o it has to be ENORMOUS. little neutrons, photons, new bonds, broken bonds... complete chemical makeup changed. and what the heck kind of mass IS z-space anyway? it's a completely different dimension! we're glossing over this, imho... and, well, none of us are biochemists, so i can see why. but i personally find it to be more probable to believe that the mass isn't coming from z-space, but from some random planet or moon or sun, etc., that the andalites have tied this system to.
lol.... so i am completely disagreeing with those posts you sent me (btw, i meant "covered in this thread", but i suppose i ought to have clarified for someone's sake). though... i am too lazy to invent plausible excuses for them. xD so who knows? maybe it all works and we have our answers already. we should just... launch into mass commercial production! let's do it!
....i stick by "absurd". in a nice way, however. it's not intended to be demeaning or belittling, but i'm not going to pretend to be patronizing, either. i just don't agree.
this won't become reality for a minimum of 100 years... and i'm leaning toward 500, if anyone ever finds any practical use for this technology ever.
let's say you manage to convince someone that normal disguises aren't doing the trick- because clearly, the CIA is just doing a terrible job at infiltrating everywhere. and that high-tech cameras from 100 years in the future won't be nearly as good at infiltration as near-deaf, near-blind flies and that the technology from the movie "avatar" won't automatically make morphing technology obsolete by putting a "killable" copy of a person out there in the field, rather than risking a for reals human life.
first, funding is an issue. who can you convince of the above that will have the money to launch this program?
second, the research, testing, implementation, and maintanence of the program you're proposing would have to be regulated stringently in america (so you're looking at resources from another country, and we all know that the economy everywhere right now is crap)... and then america would find out and want to get their hands on everything and so you're back to "regulations" and/or international economic standoffs. because america strong-arms everyone.
so... that would take forEVER. and third, advancing this technology is predicated on human experimentation, which, believe it or not, the government is not going to condone without some sort of successful 'animal' experimentation... and, well, buffa-human to the contrary, i don't think those experiments are going to work without forcing us to redraw the lines of morality in some way. period.
and not only the above (and others), but what credible scientist in 100 years is going to have learned anything from the suggestions from a bunch of nerds in an obscure forum dedicated to children's books? these topics are for fun... not meant to be taken seriously. it's simply improbable to assume (but not entirely illogical to hope) that these threads are for anything more than passing entertainment purposes. :P
so i giggle. for me, that's that.
((oh, yeah. i forgot. we also have to get busy discovering z-space and faster-than-light space travel. add another 100+ years to that one, assuming that "z-space" actually exists.))
Haha... Court, I think you're severely underestimating the increasing rate of advancement in human technology. We're on the verge of the technological singularity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity) here, and once that's achieved, all concepts of the speed of technological advancement- along with humanity itself- become obsolete. But that's for another thread :P
As russianspy pointed out earlier, transmission of data (communication) through Z-space is instantaneous, but the transmission of matter (travel) through Z-space takes time. Since time does not seem to pass at the same rate for mass in Z-space as mass in real space, we've got the theory of the temporal displacement between the two masses being part of the cause for the two-hour time limit (which, as pointed out in http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=352.1230, is probably an approximate time limit). I like the "server" idea, but it can not be tied to mass in Z-space or it will not work. It might possibly be tied to mass in real space communicating via Z-space with the nanites (or whatever the device may be, Court ;)), but I really, really dislike the idea that either the mass or information dealing with morphing has to be tied to real space at the other end in any way. Not only would that allow the Yeerks to detect (and jam) the signals (nothing like having your morphing ability jammed, or your mind, if you're already in morph), but it requires the Andalites to have gone around setting up a galactic network before the series takes place, which I don't see as plausible, or in-character for them as a species. That's kind of why I'm starting to think it might be possible to imprint Z-space itself with the information needed. Otherwise, wouldn't Tobias' mind have lost contact with his body when he became a nothlit?
As for the energy involved... yeah, it'd probably take a fair amount, but you could always theorize that it's more about subtlety and technique than it is about brute force. Maybe breaking into Z-space is less about the amount of power used and more about the specific way the electromagnetic field in the area is manipulated. Human beings have such a linear way of looking at physics since relativity and the big bang theory have come into being, and I don't think anything is quite that simple.
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No, his mind wouldn't lose contact, because no matter how far it drifts, data transmission is still instantaneous. The nanites in the body may only have a certain amount of energy to pull the mass back into real space, which they can't do if it is too far away. However, that would make it impossible to become a nothlit in a large morph... Maybe its an issue in the nanites themselves? For two hours, they are able to stay in molecular flux, but after that, they lose cohesion? hmmm that would cut off communication... So back to the different types of nanites, that allows us to put these two together, so the change nanites lose cohesion, but the communication ones, which may stay in z-space are able to maintain a mind link.
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No, his mind wouldn't lose contact, because no matter how far it drifts, data transmission is still instantaneous. The nanites in the body may only have a certain amount of energy to pull the mass back into real space, which they can't do if it is too far away. However, that would make it impossible to become a nothlit in a large morph... Maybe its an issue in the nanites themselves? For two hours, they are able to stay in molecular flux, but after that, they lose cohesion? hmmm that would cut off communication... So back to the different types of nanites, that allows us to put these two together, so the change nanites lose cohesion, but the communication ones, which may stay in z-space are able to maintain a mind link.
Someone suggested in some thread (I'm totally blanking as to who or where at the moment) that every time you morph, your entire body might be sent to Z-space, and the morph might be constructed entirely from new matter pulled from Z-space. That would help explain why large and small morphs apparently behave the same way. If that's the case, then I think you're onto something here. It could well be that Tobias' mind continues to function and communicate with his body from Z-space, but the energy needed by the nanites to draw his mass through the more-than-two-hour time difference becomes too great. I think this is a more elegant solution than "some nanites work this way, some don't." Of course, this is yet another iteration of the multiple why-do-morphers-become-nothlits theories in this thread...
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Posting earlier about E=mc2 got me in to a little off-topic thought...
Actually, I've been entertaining this thought for a few months now;
As we know, the potential Energy of any given object is equal to it's mass multiplied by the speed of light, squared.
What I'm trying to figure out is this: Andalites and thought-speak. Clearly tied to Psionics.
How would you measure Psionic Energy?
At first I was going off the idea that P=tc? (Psion= thought x speed of light... Squared? Cubed? Higher?), but thought itself is a concept and a pain in the ass in its own right to measure. Also, that would mean anyone who thinks more than me would immediately be more powerful. Not a feasible theory, in my opinion...
Any ideas?
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But how do the necessary memories get separated from the non-necessary memories?
Whenever the Animorphs morph into an animal with special abilities (e.g. a bird can fly, a seal or fish can swim, a monkey can swing through the trees), those abilities are always ready for use. Especially if more and more memories are being cut out as more morphs are acquired, picking the "right" memories to bring would be pretty difficult.
Not necessarily. The memories a hawk uses for flight are going to be some of its most frequently-used, well-ingrained thought patterns. "Muscle memory," so to speak. What memories the acquiring process takes could simply be a matter of prioritizing the most used neural pathways more highly than the lesser-used ones.
Hmm, that's possible.
Interesting. I don't visualize anyone getting past the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle anytime soon, but it might be possible eventually. Until then, it would probably still be possible (although maybe not practical) to store some of the brain's information. Once again, though, the question is "What should be saved, what should be lost, and why?"
Now we get into a whole new problem set, too, with potential memory loss. The nanites would somehow have to sync the host's brain with the nanites before morphing, then re-sync the nanites with the host's brain after de-morphing. Otherwise, some memories would be lost.
True... it would be tricky to get right, but I think we can afford to give to give the Andalites that much credit ;D
Yeah, we can definitely give them credit for that.
I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.
Haha... actually, I'm pretty sure she did. It's just an equivalent to every other alternate-reality-where-FTL travel-is-possible in sci fi. The fact that it's not real doesn't help my lack of knowledge :P
"not real"? A quick Google search turned up http://www.scribd.com/doc/1251498/Implications-of-Zero-Space (http://www.scribd.com/doc/1251498/Implications-of-Zero-Space), and now I'm confused...
While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.
Thoughts?
That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.
We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.
One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?
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I'm not sure about the others, but since when does Ax have a timekeeping chip? I thought that andalites were just naturally good at keeping track of time.
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I'm not sure about the others, but since when does Ax have a timekeeping chip? I thought that andalites were just naturally good at keeping track of time.
Hm, maybe that was a fanfic.
He definitely has a translator chip, though, since the Andalite Chronicles mentions that all members of the Andalite military have translator chips in their brains.
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I don't know anything about Zero Space either. I hadn't even known there was such a thing (I thought K.A. invented the concept) until just a few moments ago.
Haha... actually, I'm pretty sure she did. It's just an equivalent to every other alternate-reality-where-FTL travel-is-possible in sci fi. The fact that it's not real doesn't help my lack of knowledge :P
"not real"? A quick Google search turned up http://www.scribd.com/doc/1251498/Implications-of-Zero-Space (http://www.scribd.com/doc/1251498/Implications-of-Zero-Space), and now I'm confused...
Okay, well, I don't actually have time to read through that paper at the moment (although it's now come up enough that I will actually read it when I get a chance), but I will go on record to say right now that anything involving Z-space (or alternate dimensions/realities/whatever) is theoretical at best, and, as I suspect for this particular paper, deeply rooted in sci-fi fandom and speculation. Occasionally I'll see an almost-reasonable mathematical justification for belief in the existence of other universes, but overall the concept feels like a pipedream of physics to me. If proof (or even almost-proof) of anything like Z-space is ever uncovered, you can bet it'll make huge waves in the scientific community.
While we're on the topic of brains, I have yet another question/problem.
The books all talk about how the host has to fight to control the morph's instincts. How would the host successfully do that, though? Would it require Yeerk-like behavior - essentially overriding the morph's brain by connecting new neurons to the appropriate locations? (That would explain - and justify - a lot of the others' moral concerns, particularly with sentient species)
If that's the case, how would the nanites do this? It's a particularly challenging problem when you consider that different animals have different brain sizes & types, and the problem gets worse when you take abnormal specimens (for example, humans whose brain hemispheres have been separated) into account.
Thoughts?
That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.
We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.
I agree, but the technology seems to be decent at recognizing what constitutes thought processes in sentient beings. Humans and Yeerks both have no trouble gaining the morphing ability, and it's probably safe to say that the brains of humans, Yeerks and Andalites are probably all fairly different. If the technology can recognize sentient brains and respond to alien thought processes that easily, it's not unreasonable to imagine that it could also recognize the brains and thought patterns of non-sentient beings, right down to, say, fleas and ****roaches. I know it's not really an explanation, but that's the best I've got for now :P
One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?
I thought their timekeeping ability was natural, too... anyway, yeah, as for the translation chip... umm... I guess if the Andalites are capable of creating nanites capable of mapping out entire animals for use in later morphs, they'd probably be able to make a translation chip small enough that it would avoid interfering with a morph. The reason they couldn't morph flies at the time is that they had the big, clunky Yeerk chips in their brains.
And now I'm just straining myself to try to explain the series to cohesion ::)
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Maybe its like the morphing suits, requires focus. Ax knows exactly where in his brain the chips are, and what they look like, and thus is able to incorporate them into his morph. With the new chip, they didn't know anything about it, so they couldn't make em morph with them.
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I also remember reading that Andalites have a biological clock that adjusts to the planet they're on. I'm going with natural.
The traslator chip is Andalite tech, and as such is most likely made to morph with the carrier.
The Yeerks on the other hand are experimenting with animals while trying to discourage the Andalite Bandits. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to assume that the Yeerks made it so the chips weren't morph-compatible. It'd limit Andalite spies and also allow them to track the Andalites, should they become implanted... which they were :P
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Okay, well, I don't actually have time to read through that paper at the moment (although it's now come up enough that I will actually read it when I get a chance), but I will go on record to say right now that anything involving Z-space (or alternate dimensions/realities/whatever) is theoretical at best, and, as I suspect for this particular paper, deeply rooted in sci-fi fandom and speculation. Occasionally I'll see an almost-reasonable mathematical justification for belief in the existence of other universes, but overall the concept feels like a pipedream of physics to me. If proof (or even almost-proof) of anything like Z-space is ever uncovered, you can bet it'll make huge waves in the scientific community.
I'm not totally certain that paper is actually written by a scientifically-minded guy (spelling and grammar errors are liberally sprinkled throughout the paper, and I don't believe there should be a "bio" section in a real scientific paper), but it still seems to be worth reading. As for the accuracy of the ideas... well, I don't know.
That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.
We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.
I agree, but the technology seems to be decent at recognizing what constitutes thought processes in sentient beings. Humans and Yeerks both have no trouble gaining the morphing ability, and it's probably safe to say that the brains of humans, Yeerks and Andalites are probably all fairly different. If the technology can recognize sentient brains and respond to alien thought processes that easily, it's not unreasonable to imagine that it could also recognize the brains and thought patterns of non-sentient beings, right down to, say, fleas and ****roaches. I know it's not really an explanation, but that's the best I've got for now :P[/quote]
I reckon recognizing thought patterns/processes isn't that difficult (there's probably some sort of "signature", much like a computer virus can be identified by its "signature"), but recognizing the specific thought processes that are hooked to senses has to be much more difficult. Especially when you look at different senses and their different implementations (e.g. vision is very different in various animals: some creatures can see on the higher end of the color spectrum, some can see on the lower end of the color spectrum, and some can't even see at all), even recognizing the existence of all senses, let alone being able to tap into their full power, would be insanely difficult.
One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?
I thought their timekeeping ability was natural, too... anyway, yeah, as for the translation chip... umm... I guess if the Andalites are capable of creating nanites capable of mapping out entire animals for use in later morphs, they'd probably be able to make a translation chip small enough that it would avoid interfering with a morph. The reason they couldn't morph flies at the time is that they had the big, clunky Yeerk chips in their brains.
I also remember reading that Andalites have a biological clock that adjusts to the planet they're on. I'm going with natural.
The traslator chip is Andalite tech, and as such is most likely made to morph with the carrier.
The Yeerks on the other hand are experimenting with animals while trying to discourage the Andalite Bandits. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to assume that the Yeerks made it so the chips weren't morph-compatible. It'd limit Andalite spies and also allow them to track the Andalites, should they become implanted... which they were :P
OK, that makes sense. Besides, the Yeerks are never known for making good, small electronics; Ax says multiple times that the Andalite equivalent of such-and-such Yeerk technology is much better, smaller, faster, etc. (Then again, it's an Andalite speaking... I wonder how true his statements really are?)
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That's a tricky one... and you've got me thinking now... I'll need time to actually come up with anything coherent. It strikes me that the same "brain syncing" technique could be used for this as for transferring the brain of the morpher into the nanites, since there's apparently no trouble with that. If that's the case, I see it more as the Animorphs taking the existing brain and sort of altering it to meet their needs by forming new pathways. It then really becomes "their" brain, rather than a brain they're controlling. I'm not sure if that's any better morally than what the Yeerks do, but at least it's not the same thing.
We return to the problem I mentioned. Different animals have different brain sizes & types, and abnormal specimens make life even more difficult. "Alternate pathways" to tap into the morph's senses, etc. would take different routes for different brains.
There really is no "one size fits all" solution here, I think.
I agree, but the technology seems to be decent at recognizing what constitutes thought processes in sentient beings. Humans and Yeerks both have no trouble gaining the morphing ability, and it's probably safe to say that the brains of humans, Yeerks and Andalites are probably all fairly different. If the technology can recognize sentient brains and respond to alien thought processes that easily, it's not unreasonable to imagine that it could also recognize the brains and thought patterns of non-sentient beings, right down to, say, fleas and ****roaches. I know it's not really an explanation, but that's the best I've got for now :P
I reckon recognizing thought patterns/processes isn't that difficult (there's probably some sort of "signature", much like a computer virus can be identified by its "signature"), but recognizing the specific thought processes that are hooked to senses has to be much more difficult. Especially when you look at different senses and their different implementations (e.g. vision is very different in various animals: some creatures can see on the higher end of the color spectrum, some can see on the lower end of the color spectrum, and some can't even see at all), even recognizing the existence of all senses, let alone being able to tap into their full power, would be insanely difficult.
We're getting a pretty decent quote brick here ;D Again, this might be simpler than you're making it. The technology doesn't necessarily have to zero in on every single sense- it may just zero in on the part of the brain that processes that information. *shrug*
One more question, probably a KASU.
When the Animorphs morph hammerhead sharks and get computer chips embedded in their brains, they can't morph to anything small because the chip would destroy the morph's brain. However, Ax has multiple computer chips in his brain (a time-keeping chip and a translation chip, perhaps others as well) - all Andalite warriors, and perhaps all Andalites, do - and he has no such problems. Any idea what's up here?
I thought their timekeeping ability was natural, too... anyway, yeah, as for the translation chip... umm... I guess if the Andalites are capable of creating nanites capable of mapping out entire animals for use in later morphs, they'd probably be able to make a translation chip small enough that it would avoid interfering with a morph. The reason they couldn't morph flies at the time is that they had the big, clunky Yeerk chips in their brains.
I also remember reading that Andalites have a biological clock that adjusts to the planet they're on. I'm going with natural.
The traslator chip is Andalite tech, and as such is most likely made to morph with the carrier.
The Yeerks on the other hand are experimenting with animals while trying to discourage the Andalite Bandits. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to assume that the Yeerks made it so the chips weren't morph-compatible. It'd limit Andalite spies and also allow them to track the Andalites, should they become implanted... which they were :P
OK, that makes sense. Besides, the Yeerks are never known for making good, small electronics; Ax says multiple times that the Andalite equivalent of such-and-such Yeerk technology is much better, smaller, faster, etc. (Then again, it's an Andalite speaking... I wonder how true his statements really are?)
I really did get the impression (especially from the Hork-Bajir Chronicles) that the Yeerks had very little of their own in the way of new technology, and instead just adapted and improved on what they were able to obtain from other species. But, yeah, I guess most of the arguments in favor of that are Andalites, so who knows how much the Yeerks were able to advance on their own...
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We're getting a pretty decent quote brick here ;D
Not anymore, I trimmed it a little. ;)
Again, this might be simpler than you're making it. The technology doesn't necessarily have to zero in on every single sense- it may just zero in on the part of the brain that processes that information. *shrug*
Interesting possibility. Do you happen to know if the same brain parts process senses in all animals?
I really did get the impression (especially from the Hork-Bajir Chronicles) that the Yeerks had very little of their own in the way of new technology, and instead just adapted and improved on what they were able to obtain from other species. But, yeah, I guess most of the arguments in favor of that are Andalites, so who knows how much the Yeerks were able to advance on their own...
*shrug*
Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the Andalites. The Yeerks seemed to be content taking other species' weaponry, etc. and modifying it to suit themselves - the worst example of this is the Dracon beam, which is an Andalite shredder specifically modified to cause extreme pain. (Andalite shredders are designed to be painless)
However, since we never really get a Yeerk's viewpoint of the situation, it's certainly possible the Andalites are (as usual) trying to discredit other species' intelligence and development. Oh, the possibilities...
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Okay, I want to see if I can summarize the ideas that are *mostly* in favor at the moment. It gets a little difficult to keep track of what has and has not been replaced with other theories. Basically:
Morphing ability is acquired via a set of nanites that sentient beings obtain when they touch an escafil device. These nanites sync with the host's mind and biological systems and recognize these as a sort of "ground state".
In acquiring a morph, the nanites collect much the same biological data as they have all collected from their host. This would include memories (which are chemically imprinted on the brain), but as a host's morphing repertoire increases, it is likely that memories will need to be excluded in order to create more space. It may be that memory pathways are prioritized by how often they are used. Given the kind of biological data the nanites would be storing to morph the creature, picking up on the most-used pathways would be very easy. Although sensory function does tend to correlate within the same/similar regions of the brain across many species, that would probably only be true (as a general rule) for the animals on earth. Shared ancestor and all that. Where these functions are located in the brain would not matter for the nanites in differentiating between different memories, what would matter is the chemical activity associated with them. Basically high chemical activity = high importance pathway, and that's how the memories would be discriminated.
Morphing involves the nanites translating matter to and from Z-space in accordance with the biological data of whichever morph is initiated. This would mean that the host's matter (and a good portion of their nanites) ends up in Z-space, even when morphing a larger animal. The morphing process itself causes the nanites in the morphed body to give off a "morphing energy" signature that is uniquely recognized by other nanites synced with the same host. This recognition across the Z-space temporal gap allows the host to demorph; however, the morphing energy signature disperses and becomes practically useless after ~2 hours.
So let me know if I'm misunderstanding something somewhere in there.
Getting back to the more debated points: the presence of animal minds in morph. It seems pretty likely to me that the first time any of the animorphs morph something, the original animal mind is almost completely present without alterations. Hence the few minutes it takes them to "get control" of their morphs. The "getting control" part is probably direct intervention of the nanites in signaling processes (i.e. they would block signals in normal pathways like see human-run-hide that would interfere with what the animorph needed to do). This probably takes a few minutes because the human mind needs to interpret the information it's receiving from the nanites and move them (or ask them to move themselves, really) accordingly. It would be pretty easy to do in minds similar to their own, but harder in more unfamiliar territory. It might even be that once the morpher has their nanites set in the correct configuration for control, that configuration is saved and implemented more quickly if that morph is ever reused. It would also make sense if memories that go unused by the morpher are deleted to create more room for new morphs.
I have stuff I want to say about where the morpher's mind is during morphing, but maybe I'll do that later...
By the way, this is an awesome thread you guys! Major kudos to everyone who's posted in here ^_^
Now to revive the thread....
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I don't think it's a real "mind", like more of instinct, like how we act when we touch something really hot, or the pleasure from eating cinnamon buns. :)
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you know this stuff might not be so far in the funture
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First, I'd like to say: "AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGH GHHHHHH!!!!!" :explode:
Then, I'd like to say: There have been several mentions of losing nanites through injury and other situations. What if they are self-reproducing? Has anyone here read Michael Crichton's book "PREY"? What kind of implications would that have?
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Actually, the nanites would almost have to be self-reproducing for just that reason. Some may be lost, some could be damaged, and after a while they're just going to wear out regardless. If they're not capable of creating more, the morphing ability becomes a one-time only thing.
I think somebody mentioned a while back in this thread that a lot of the nanites would probably be specialized; some of them would store information, and some would provide the Z-space field for morphing. Specialization makes even more sense when you consider that some of them would have to be able to create more as well.
Apparently Andalite nanites are more well behaved than those in Prey, though ;)
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Here's hoping :paranoid:
Another thing to consider... What about the handicapped kids who got healed? If these nanites store basic memories (like muscle memory) and details that aren't based on DNA (like fat and hair length), how and/or why would kids with life-long injuries be healed, while others with genetic issues weren't? Someone mentioned that the tech can't be solely based off of DNA because then the morpher would end up as an embryo or a baby or something... in other words, they wouldn't appear the same age, etc. (For example, when Cassie morphed Rachel, she would have been an adult Rachel, rather than an exact copy of her teenaged self.) Random question... where in our minds/bodies do we store information about ourselves that isn't DNA-based? In a sense, aren't all of our characteristics based on it? Even when your grown up, your body is still being actively mantained according to the DNA that you've had since birth. I don't know for sure, but I think that even with one set of DNA there is some 'wiggle room' for our bodies to adjust in. Like I said, our adult body is acceptable to or compatible with our DNA patterns... What is it in our bodies that controls our current expression of our DNA?
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I have a question. You stated that maintaining things like piercings and clothes are all based on concentration and practice. So then, is it possible, with immense focus, to create mass that was not there? Like picturing a person as being fatter, or wearing a different color shirt and then morphing them? If that would work, what's to stop a person from picturing the person being morphed wearing gold rings and such, and repeating the process to create and essentially drag matter out of z-space in the form of usable materials?
Or go the other way and picture myself has having LESS MASS than I do, allowing me to lose weight!
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No, that's not really how morphing works. Like not all...