Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: adeon222 on October 23, 2009, 12:39:29 AM
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I'm really, really, really, really, really sorry if this has already been brought up... Really... But I looked for a long time and couldn't find a thread about it, so, here goes... :-\
In #10, after Erik obliterates the yeerk troops to save the Animorphs, changes his programing back to nonviolence, and basically breaks down with (understandable) shame and horror, he asks the Animorphs how they deal with the killing - taking another life... They just try to forget... but Erik is an android, so he can never forget anything, right?
Wrong!!!!
:huh:
Am I the only one who was wondering why Erik didn't use the Pemalite crystal (a tool so powerful it could alter his core essential programming) to erase his memories of the killing?
Obviously I'm not saying this would alter the series in any great way, because I'm not advocating just killing more and using the cube to forget over and over again... But still... wouldn't it have saved him a lot of ETERNAL pain and anguish that he could possibly have forgotten?
Just saying... :-\
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Erik? Eh, I'll let someone more authorative be a spelling nazi. And I don't think I've seen a thread tackle this particular issue, so you're probably in the clear there.
But you bring up a good point -- one I never really considered. Then again, you have to remember, though they may be robots and such, they are sentient and capable of mistakes, I think. It could be KASU (Katherine Applegate screws up) or simply be because it never occured to Erek or perhaps that circuitry is completely different or something. I don't have an explanation -- well, not one that satisifies me.
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thats a good point, on that makes sense. (it's erEk btw :P)
but i go with KASU, cuz she had lotsa those
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thats a good point, on that makes sense. (it's erEk btw :P)
but i go with KASU, cuz she had lotsa those
XD That doesn't necessarily make it a KASU. :P
Some of this stuff we have to remember is done for the drama value. Erek remembering what happened forever is a lot more poignant than "Oh, no big, I'll just make myself forget." Actually, I think that'd be pretty anti-climactic. And make the whole thing completely pointless.
He did something he regrets. Now he has to live with it. He has the option to run away from it, but he doesn't. Personally, I like him better for that. :P
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I think he probably COULD have erased his memory of that, but he chose not to. He would probably see erasing the memories as an insult to those he killed, and chose to keep the memories to not only honour the dead, but also to remind himself of WHY the Chee are non-violent.
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It would kind of ruin the moment. Maybe be creepy even. Yes it could probably be done, but it would diminish the dramatic tone.
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I think he probably COULD have erased his memory of that, but he chose not to. He would probably see erasing the memories as an insult to those he killed, and chose to keep the memories to not only honour the dead, but also to remind himself of WHY the Chee are non-violent.
Exactly my own thoughts. Not that I ever thought about it before, nor do I think it's been brought up before (least long as I've been around). So A+ question, I think. ;)
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My wife doesn't like the name spelled that way... so I changed it to Erik on purpose... ^-^ :P
And...
thats a good point, on that makes sense. (it's erEk btw :P)
Not even gonna comment... (even though I just did...) ;)
All good answers, btw, and ones that I was expecting... I had personally figured on the 'dishonoring the dead/dramatic effect' answer... but I figured that it would be an interesting topic to bring up anyway...
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meh it was late at night. :P
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I think he probably COULD have erased his memory of that, but he chose not to. He would probably see erasing the memories as an insult to those he killed, and chose to keep the memories to not only honour the dead, but also to remind himself of WHY the Chee are non-violent.
Exactly. We are all the sum of our own memories and experiences, good and bad. It's very likely that he could have erased the memory of the battle, but if he had what would have stopped him from doing it all over again? The battle was a harsh lesson for him, proving that the Chee are supposed to be non-violent.
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or maybe he just couldn't erase his memories? did the book clearly say a chee could erase their memories with the crystal?
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It was never explicitly mentioned, but if the crystal was powerful enough to rewrite a Chee's most basic programming, no doubt it would be able to overwrite a memory.
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or maybe he just couldn't erase his memories? did the book clearly say a chee could erase their memories with the crystal?
No it didn't, that's why I said it was very likely, not certain.
In fact, now that I think about it, in book 26 Jake asks Erek if he can remove the Howler memories and I vaguely recall him saying he can't. Perhaps this would still be the case even with the Pemalite crystal. Thanks for reminding me Morf.
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I was wondering why they didn't change his programming again in #54 so he could help fighting and NOT draining the dracon beams instead ::)
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I was wondering why they didn't change his programming again in #54 so he could help fighting and NOT draining the dracon beams instead ::)
Because at the end of #10 they threw the crystal into the ocean. They no longer had access to it.
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I was wondering why they didn't change his programming again in #54 so he could help fighting and NOT draining the dracon beams instead ::)
Because at the end of #10 they threw the crystal into the ocean. They no longer had access to it.
And after the events in The Android nonviolence was his choice, his position on the Pool in #54 was one against his will, not just his programming (in fact, it was brought about through abuse of his programming) and the draining of the dracon beams was him doing what he thought was best at the time (much to Jake's frustration) not just his non-violence programming.
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I was wondering why they didn't change his programming again in #54 so he could help fighting and NOT draining the dracon beams instead ::)
Because at the end of #10 they threw the crystal into the ocean. They no longer had access to it.
And after the events in The Android nonviolence was his choice, his position on the Pool in #54 was one against his will, not just his programming (in fact, it was brought about through abuse of his programming) and the draining of the dracon beams was him doing what he thought was best at the time (much to Jake's frustration) not just his non-violence programming.
I forgot about the crystal. See that's what happens if you read the first 30 books years ago and only recently started to continue reading again without re-reading those books.
Regarding Erek's thought though, isn't he an android? I thought his thoughts=programming? I mean is he actually sentient? I don't think robots and androids are actually alive and sentient, but correct me if I'm wrong.
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Regarding Erek's thought though, isn't he an android? I thought his thoughts=programming? I mean is he actually sentient? I don't think robots and androids are actually alive and sentient, but correct me if I'm wrong.
It's really funny you should ask that. Before continuing to use the word sentient, read at least enough of my rant here: http://animorphsforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5410.msg443162#msg443162 to make sure you know what you mean.
In any case, even though what you actually meant was "is he actually sapient" your question would be just as valuable if you did actually mean "is he actually sentient?" and either way I would say that yes, he definitely was sentient and if you believe that he was not sapient then you might just as well believe that humans are not sapient. Now I'm not trying to 'correct you', but suggesting you may need to reexamine your thoughts on what these meta-cognitive things like sapience or sentience really are; and if they do actually necessitate life to actually be cognition (or 'thoughts').
No, he is not alive, but life is not a prerequisite for sapience, sapience merely requires roughly human level intelligence or better; it describes the ability or 'wisdom' to make judgments (with intentionality) based on that intelligence. Now I understand your belief that for a robot its "thoughts=programming" and well, frankly sci-fi has concerned itself for quite some time with exactly what it takes for one to consider a robot to be its own person (as having sapience is recognized by many to be sufficient to bestow 'person-hood' on any non-human; for example we would say that Andalites are people even though they are not human because they are sapient) but the level of thinking displayed by the Chee is certainly sufficient for sapience.
So I see that you would argue "Well, it is not actually making those judgments and its intelligence is not true intelligence; both are just programming taken to enough really abstract levels to make it appear to be making decisions in the way that a person would, but it is all just programming." But to say that, you could just as easily say:
"We humans think we have free will and are our own, independent person making decisions, but consciousness itself and everything we think is us is merely an illusion; everything we do is predetermined by all of the physical and electrical properties of our brain which are nothing more than immensely elaborate computers responding according to the laws of physics to given inputs from the nervous system in the same way a robot would. We do not actually make judgments based on intelligence, it is all just the physical 'programming' of our brains and the rest of our bodies, built by nature."
Or to put it another way:
"Everything that has ever happened or will ever happen in this universe has been predetermined from the beginning. All matter and energy move and operate according to the laws of physics. Whatever happens to 'us humans' has been predetermined, and our responses and actions have likewise been predetermined by the specific physical and electrical state of our brains; such that if someone knew with enough detail how all of physics operated and knew enough about the entire universe at any given time they could predict everything that will ever happen, including their own reactions to this knowledge. We are nothing but complicated robots built by the physical properties of the universe being played out over time"
So yes, in that sense you could argue that a robot is not sapient, but in that sense neither is a human or anything else within this universe, removing all meaning from the word. I myself prefer to believe that robots dream of electric sheep.
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Okay, maybe it's sapient, I think. I know what you mean, but I'm not 100% agree with you, but I won't argue anyway. I don't think I'd be able to express my point as well as you :)
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Okay, maybe it's sapient, I think. I know what you mean, but I'm not 100% agree with you, but I won't argue anyway. I don't think I'd be able to express my point as well as you :)
Oh come on, work those 'thought expressing muscles', you know you want to. I won't consider it being argumentative, I think that one gains the strongest reasoning skills through healthy debate. Think it through and either decide you agree with me (which you by no means have to do) or figure out how to express your disagreement (which I would find much more interesting for my part).