Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: wotw2112 on June 26, 2009, 04:14:07 PM
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Honestly, I had never heard the term "Mary Sue" before coming to this forum. If i'm not mistaken the term "Mary Sue" relies to a character who is essentially a super "fix all" character. She is the best at everything and whenever a situation arises that the heroes are unprepared for the mary sure character simply "gets another power" to take care of it. Essentially the character is ridiculously special and a cure-all for lazy authors. (The male equivalent is a Gary Stue or something like that I believe).
I don't know if this has been previously discussed but I think Cassie may be the exact definition of this character.
For example: she was the one who rooted them in time (can't recall what they called it) when they went off on their fantastical journeys, she was mysteriously immune to the disease Ax and the rest caught, she was a fantastic morpher, she single handedly started the yeerk peace movement, etc.
There were many more instances that I can't recall.
Does anyone have any thoughts or instances? Maybe a reason to disagree?
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I'd believe that. She seemed to be the groups reality ground. Her and Marco constantly gave the others a reality check.
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Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeees
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yeah, i'd say she fits that description quite well.
Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeees
haha, nice.
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Thanks. ;)
Longer Answer: The Ghostwriters made her much worse than she was, but the foundation was laid early.
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short answer: probably.
long answer: it's probably true but I don't care. I still like her...
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I don't think so. She clearly has a flaw in her reluctance. This reluctance is clearly defined in many of her books.
And high five to morfowt. I think we need more cassie fans!
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The thing about Mary Sues is that they tend to have so called 'flaws' that are simply cleverly (or not so cleverly) disguised ways to to push their own agenda/needs.
Cassie being the moralist who is shown to be right occasionally and wrong occasionally and somewhat in between most of the time would be good. The Cassie we saw was a moralist who ENDED UP being right 99 percent of the time, usually through writers contrivance.
The fact that they took her back with no reluctance and no further friction after she quit the team and told the world to burn in hell as long as she didn't have to dirty her hands, and insulted Rachel, her supposed best friend, is still annoying.
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She didn't single handedly start the peace movement. The Yeerk whose name escapes me at the moment started it. But Cassie helped her see the light. She played a huge part, no doubt.
Cassie is, I believe, a Mary Sue character.
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Where did the term Mary Sue come about? Why was Mary Sue the name chosen to rep all the super-characters?
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This is a paragraph taken from a site called TV tropes and idioms, that deals with a lot of things, including Mary Sue.
The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic "A Trekkie's Tale". Originally written as a parody of the standard Self Insert Fic of the time (as opposed to any particular traits), the name was quickly adopted by the Star Trek fanfiction community. Its original meaning mostly held that it was an Always Female Author Avatar, regardless of character role or perceived quality. Often, said characters would get in a relationship with either Kirk or Spock, turn out to have a familial bond with a crew member, be a Half Human Hybrid masquerading as a human, and/or die in a graceful, beautiful way to reinforce that the character was Too Good For This Sinful Earth. Even back then, there wasn't a total consensus on what was or wasn't Mary Sue, since it's not always immediately obvious which character is an Author Avatar. As this essay reveals, suspiciously Mary Sue-like characters were noted in subscriber-submitted articles for 19th-century childrens' magazines, making this trope Older Than You Think
Read the full page here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
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Cassie's a canon-sue, but only because the ghostwriters handled her so badly.
She had conflict in the earlier books, but yeah, it was always a little bit there. The change wasn't as drastic as with Rachel.
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am I the only one who thought the "subtemporal anomaly" thing actually made sense for her character?
and I don't think Cassie's a Mary Sue, but that doesn't mean I like her character at all
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The sub temporal space anomaly thing was just weird and unnecessary. They could have taken the part about Cassie coming back from the dead to kill Visser three, and just had jake not miss. Then the ending would be the same. Though some other parts would need some changing. But I think it could work fine. Then Crayak or the Drode return things to normal in order to give the Yeerks a better chance at winning.
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am I the only one who thought the "subtemporal anomaly" thing actually made sense for her character?
Might I ask why? Her "connection to mother earth" or something like that? Just curious.
To me it just seemed like yet another bs reason to justify Cassie's presence among the Ellimist's (disputedly) stacked deck. Rachel dies because she was the random member who had no real purpose (Ellimist tells her as much in book 54). The nonsense about subtemporal grounding combined with all her other "miraculous abilities" was the bs way to justify Cassie's presence.
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Yeah. The SD thing is her big reason for being in the group. Without it, I guess she's just the moral compass. Which would be more useful if she wasn't so rigidly moral.
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Might I ask why? Her "connection to mother earth" or something like that? Just curious.
To me it just seemed like yet another bs reason to justify Cassie's presence among the Ellimist's (disputedly) stacked deck. Rachel dies because she was the random member who had no real purpose (Ellimist tells her as much in book 54). The nonsense about subtemporal grounding combined with all her other "miraculous abilities" was the bs way to justify Cassie's presence.
The "stacked deck" thing didn't make real sense to me at all--if anything, Rachel was more *predestined* to be there than Cassie, just because of her attitude towards fighting and how suited she was for it. And tbh, it's been years since I read MM4, but all I remember is the plot careening ridiculously out of control, and then being oddly satisfied with how it was resolved. It's not just *Mother Earth*, it's that Cassie has a deeper awareness of emotions and motivations that, in a sci-fi setting, would lead her to notice things wrong with the universe she's in. It's Deanna Troi's power, and she was always the one to figure out when something wasn't quite right, which was about her only power other than going "Boy Captain, he sure is angry." "Yes Counselor, thank you, I got that when he told us how angry he was."
I didn't like Cassie as a character. She is a huuuuge hypocrite. I just re-read #16 and godDAMN can that girl not make up her mind. "We can't let Fenestre keep killing humans!" "So what do you want to do?" "Kill him!" "Go ahead" "But uh my morph is not suited for it..." But if sci-fi is about blowing all things in normal, everyday life into epic, supernatural proportions, then I believe someone who's generally a little more empathetic and unfocused on the superficial nature of things (no matter how wrong she often was) would be able to tell when a universe is forged.
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Ah, I see. Perhaps it would make sense that of any of them she would be sub-temporally grounded. Still, I don't think it was necessary for any of them to have that particular ability. It just contributed (in my opinion) to her Mary Sue-ness
And stacked deck:
Marco - son of Visser 1's host
Tobias - Elfangor's Son
Jake - Brother of Tom, a prominent controller (who knows why)
Cassie - subtemporally grounded and thus critical to their success (as it was written)
Ax - Elfangor's brother
They all had strong connections (why the Ellimist allegedly picked them). Rachel was "extra". The Ellimist pretty much says so in 54.
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I wonder why KA had the most warrior like of all the Humans just be extra? did she think Ax filled that ninche well enough? Or couldn't she at least find something for Rachel to be? Though she would probably think of something off the wall, like what she did with Cassie.
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Ah, I see. Perhaps it would make sense that of any of them she would be sub-temporally grounded. Still, I don't think it was necessary for any of them to have that particular ability. It just contributed (in my opinion) to her Mary Sue-ness
And stacked deck:
Marco - son of Visser 1's host
Tobias - Elfangor's Son
Jake - Brother of Tom, a prominent controller (who knows why)
Cassie - subtemporally grounded and thus critical to their success (as it was written)
Ax - Elfangor's brother
They all had strong connections (why the Ellimist allegedly picked them). Rachel was "extra". The Ellimist pretty much says so in 54.
I think the "stacked deck" thing was just Applegate realizing she had a lot of coincidences in her story, so she blamed it on her deus ex machina b/c that's what he was there for.
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As a big Rachel fan, the thing of her being 'extra' and 'unnecessary' was a huge slap in the face, one I tend to ignore as much as possible.
But it's not nearly as insulting as KA's letter at the end where she said she'd miss writing for everyone EXCEPT Rachel.
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I won't argue against the Ellemist being a Dues Ex Machina. Just look at book 7. It's the first book where they really hit the Yeerks hard, and they never would have found the Kandrona Machine without him showing them.
I must have forgotten the part where she said that. That really is a slap to the face.
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maybe she said it because rachel was already dead so even if she continued the story, she wouldnt be writing about rachel?
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I thought about that, but since Rachel died in the exact same book, she should still 'miss' writing for her just like all the others. It wouldn't be a big deal if she just named a couple because the others would be implied, like "I'll miss writing My name is Jake, or my name is Marco" because then you can assume she just said a couple names and implied the rest. But she specifically named all of them except Rachel. In the exact book that Rachel died in. That's what galls me. It was like she died and other than in character reactions (some of which I still disagree with), it didn't matter. Contrary to what the Ellimist told Rachel.
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Lots to respond to! You guys are awesome for killing boredom!
First and just to be clear: the stacked deck thing was never "admitted" by the Ellimist. He was accused of it but never said anything either way. It's not a stretch to believe though... And yes, I think she wrote it in to justify the ridiculous coincidences that found elfangor's son, visser 1's son, and tom's brother all in the same place.
I wonder why KA had the most warrior like of all the Humans just be extra? did she think Ax filled that ninche well enough? Or couldn't she at least find something for Rachel to be? Though she would probably think of something off the wall, like what she did with Cassie.
KA probably had some BS message like "warriors aren't necessary in war". She always justified her crap with stupid reasons.
As a big Rachel fan, the thing of her being 'extra' and 'unnecessary' was a huge slap in the face, one I tend to ignore as much as possible.
But it's not nearly as insulting as KA's letter at the end where she said she'd miss writing for everyone EXCEPT Rachel.
I too am a Rachel fan. I had exactly the same feeling. Then again, she should have said: "I miss having my ghostwriters write for everyone but Rachel" to be more accurate. ::)
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Right. And cooks aren't neseccary for restaraunts. Lol.
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Don't hate on K.A. The stacked deck is kinda annoying and Cassie did tend to be correct a lot, if you look at the outcome of her actions. They always tended to be the best. The random chance for Rachel is cool though. Remember, in the alternate timeline, Melissa takes Rachel's place.
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The Yeerks getting the box, and Rachel and Tom dying was not for the best. It was all a lot of luck, which means the plot worked for her possibly. Something else that's a sign of a Sue character. Though that's God Mode Sue that has the plot work for them, and Cassie doesn't really fit as a GM Sue.
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Exactly. That's what a Mary Sue is. Even when they do something completely against everyone else and against LOGIC, everything just happens to work out perfectly for them.
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Exactly. That's what a Mary Sue is. Even when they do something completely against everyone else and against LOGIC, everything just happens to work out perfectly for them.
Everything worked out pretty well for Cassie in the end. She's the only one who ends up doing exactly what she had always hoped (even becoming advisor to the president which was ridiculous). Oh, and she doesn't die. Happily ever after for Cassie.
Not to mention that she didn't really care that Rachel died cause they suddenly weren't friends just before that happened. What luck for Cassie!
If you look at the previous description of a Mary Sue I think it said that no one has exactly pinned down what a "Mary Sue" is and isn't. I just think that Cassie is more than she isn't.
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The whole president thing was weird. Including putting tobi on the Counsil, or whatever. That didn't really amke any more sense to me than the fact that she didn't take her people to the Homeworld to help the resistance she helped start.
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What resistance, the yeerks lost.
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I believe Toby was actually made a senator (though I may be wrong). Ridiculous.
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What resistance, the yeerks lost.
they lost on earth. There were still forces on the taxxon homeworld...
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The sub temporal space anomaly thing was just weird and unnecessary.
That is true but it i love the idea XD.
I don't think she is that much of a Mary Sue. There are alot of characters in books and stories who might have some slight Sueish feel to them but you can actually see the depth to them.
Also i don't think all Author Avatars are Mary Sue material. Some are actually very good.
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Exactly. For example, Rowling has gone on record that Hermione Granger is an author avatar. I would truly hesitate to call Granger a Mary Sue.
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What resistance, the yeerks lost.
Do you think the Yeerks would abandon the Hork-Bajir Homeworld just because they lost earth and the Leeran Homeworld? That's where some of the Free Horks were sent to start a resistance in one of the books.
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I don't think they did leave. They might have pretended to leave and gone back. They can wait for teh Andalites to think they won and when they are not paying attention go back to what they were doing.
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I'm so tired of people blaming the ghost writers they were given a basic plot and they just had to write it while the author was raising her newborn son.
Second, as was stated by "Spartan 281 (parker)" the definition of mary sue is an indefinate one origionally refering to a short lived female character who was near flawless and often fell in love with kirk or spock (not often but I know there was one occasion at least).
Also I think that Cassie may have functioned in only three roles throughout the series.
1) A moralist who was used by the author for an underlying pacifist theme
2) The one who thinks up morphs to use for mission.
3) A long term mary sue (in regards to jake)
Number one would explain why she is always right because the author wanted her to be to state her underlying theme.
But I think the perfect quote for cassie would be
"She was right but at the wrong time." (Spock)
The author herself is well alot like cassie. For those veterans of the site you will notice that she gets very touchy when it comes to the subject of war. It is likely that she is motivated and deeply effected by some personal experience.
And once again the author can be compared to another Mary Sue who I think would fit the origional definition: Edith Keller (Star Trek episode: "The City on the edge of forever") if you've seen it you'll know what I mean.
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Galladerotom: Just to be clear: do you agree or disagree (or something in between) with Cassie being a Mary Sue? It seems like your saying yes but I got lost on the last sentence (don't know who edith keller is) and the phrase "functioned in only three roles".
On the whole I think I agree with just about everything you've said (assuming I understood it correctly), except:
I'm so tired of people blaming the ghost writers they were given a basic plot and they just had to write it while the author was raising her newborn son.
Outlines and so-called "revisions" have little to do with character building. Tone and in-text execution (including sub-plots) both have extreme impacts on character development.
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Wow. Loads of hate for Cassie. Either way, Im a Cassie fan, thought she was brilliant.
Remember though, when KA wrote MM4 she didnt even recognize that the way she wrote Cassie was almost "supernatural" aka sub-temporally grounded It wasnt until the book was almost complete that she said "Oh. Wait a minute, that's what she is!" And then she went back to make it more sensible.
Rachel wasn't just an extra add on. The Ellimist admitted to her that her life did matter. (I do agree though, interesting that Melissa was her replacement in MM3). But wasnt it explained that Rachel was a serendipity? Earth's chance to save itself? So the universe "chose" her, working its way through random chances of time/space to put her in that position. She wasnt in the Ellimist original plans, but it still worked out, and if anything she motivated the others to be fierce in battle. Jake was there to lead, Rachel was there to motivate, and motivate she did.
If you recall, the world would have to be a pretty f***ed up place for Melissa to replace Rachel, and even in that reality the ANimorphs were going to lose. So big changed would have to occur to get rid of Rachel in that timeline.
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Yeah, and let's not forget that Rachel is also related to Tom. She has connections, albeit not as strong, to the stacked deck as well.
Rachel was a huge part of the team, Her morphs were the power morphs, were she not in the story, they probably wouldn't have survived many of the missions.
In regards to the MM4 Cassie grounding: I thought that was just a cool twist. It may have been unnecessary, and yeah, if Jake had succeded, the same result would've come about, but I thought that last twist was a very cool addition. And it also shows a "Mind over Matter" type of thing. Even though Cassie was grounded, if she didn't have the prescence of mind, and the will power, she would've just accepted death, and the war would've ended there. But she overpowered the vision, and took control. I thought it was a very cool addition.
Although, I also am a fan of Cassie, so I can understand that if you largely disliked Cassie, and were glad she died, how that ending would put you off.
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In regards to the MM4 Cassie grounding: I thought that was just a cool twist. It may have been unnecessary, and yeah, if Jake had succeded, the same result would've come about, but I thought that last twist was a very cool addition. And it also shows a "Mind over Matter" type of thing. Even though Cassie was grounded, if she didn't have the prescence of mind, and the will power, she would've just accepted death, and the war would've ended there. But she overpowered the vision, and took control. I thought it was a very cool addition.
Which seems to be a good example of her Mary-Sue tendencies.
Yeah, and let's not forget that Rachel is also related to Tom. She has connections, albeit not as strong, to the stacked deck as well.
True but she really doesn't show much concern for Tom throughout the series. Tenuous connections but the Ellimist comes right out and says she had no part in his plan. That doesn't mean she wasn't necessary though. You make a good point about the powermorphs. She really did carry the load sometimes.