Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: Phoenix004 on March 29, 2009, 04:18:33 PM
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Just a random thought I had a second ago that I want to discuss with you guys.
Imagine this scenario: Some type of government agency (one not heavily infiltrated by the Yeerks) begins to suspect that The Sharing is some type of cult. They send in one of their people undercover to find out more. Sooner or later, the guy gets caught and infested. When he reports back, he is put through a series of tests in case he has been brainwashed, and is given a lie detector test. He is asked a question (eg. "Do you spot any suspicious activity in The Sharing organisation?") and he replies "No." Obviously the Yeerk is forcing the host to lie, but would the lie detector pick up on that?
In short, if a Yeerk forces its host to lie, will it fool a lie detector?
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That's a good question. Depends on how much control a Yeerk really has on things like blood pressure and stuff. I know they can keep themselves from sending the kind of body language that hints at lying. Touching their face, or averting their eyes. How exactly does a lie detector work?
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Well, Polygraph tests function by reading biometrics (heart rate, body temp, blood pressure, etc). The basic idea is that when someone lies their body gives a response due to their heightened mental/emotional state and the feedback this causes in their body functions.
Both illicit substances and coaching can result in a lie detector giving false negatives, so they can be beat. A polygraph test also relies on psychological setting and situation that is created by the interrogator to elicit a stronger-than normal subconscious reaction to get clearer results.
Given that we know that yeerks have focused on the police force as a target and have infested their ranks I think it's safe to assume that they know exactly how a polygraph works. Now as to whether or not a yeerk would be able to beat a polygraph, well...
I don't know. I'm leaning towards "yes" because of the advanced technology the yeerks posses and the rigid control that a yeerk usually has on its host. If a yeerk can usually suppress a host outburst I imagine it would be a cakewalk to fool a polygraph.
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I'd say yes, for sure, as long as the Yeerk knew how the test worked. A Yeerk's connection to a host's body isn't like your connection to your own body. What might be an involuntary reaction for you would be controlled by a Yeerk's manipulation of your brain's signals, and thus would be totally voluntary for them.
But this would also depend on the Yeerk, I think. Some Yeerks would have been in human hosts for long enough that they were totally in tune to human reactions and gestures, and thus acting human would have been second nature at that point. These Yeerks would be at a disadvantage when trying to fool a polygraph test, obviously, because human reactions would have become almost as natural to them as to their human hosts. Yeerks who were new to human hosts would probably be able to fool the polygraph, easy as pie.
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I don't know. I'm leaning towards "yes" because of the advanced technology the yeerks posses and the rigid control that a yeerk usually has on its host. If a yeerk can usually suppress a host outburst I imagine it would be a cakewalk to fool a polygraph.
This was my thought. If it's possible for a human to beat it with enough coaching, why not a Yeerk?
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To make this a fair test, we should assume that neither the Yeerk or the host have had training at resisting a lie detector.
The way I see it, the Yeerk would only be able to fool the detector if the Yeerk was capable of controlling the host's involuntary reactions. Since we don't know how much control Yeerks have over that kind of thing, it makes it difficult to say.
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i'd say possibly.
much better chance than without a yeerk, that's for sure ;)
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We know a Yeerk could control exterior things, such as blinking and such, so looking at them would be no more informative than staring down Hannibal Lector.
Things like heart rate however... are they based on the Yeerk's physical state, or the human's? For example, does heartrate increase based on the Yeerk's emotions or the humans? If it's the Yeerks, it should pass with no problem. The whole idea of a lie detector is based on how emotions affect you physically. A typical Yeerk sees humans as no more than animal hosts, so it shouldn't feel anything lying. It's just like when you tell a human, "State the sky is green." When they say, "The sky is green", they aren't really lying, and it wouldn't show up on the test.
If it's based on the human, well, the test would be failed instantly. The human would be so freaked out inside, as well as desperately trying to fail the test. So the test would be failed, most likely.
I'm leaning towards the fact it's based on the Yeerk, because controllers would be noticed far more often if they constantly had sweaty, clammy skin, as well as a high heart rate, all of which comes from constant fear or stress. So they probably could fool a lie detector, in my opinion.
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I'm leaning towards "yes", because to the Yeerk, there would be no suspicious activity. And Yeerks were such fantastic actors...:P
Even if it was caught off guard, it could potentially control heart rate to a small enough degree that it would fool the test, or it probably would know all the lie detector test marks of suspicion (since its host would), and fool it that way.
Or it could just get nervous, making its host get nervous, and fail the stupid thing like anyone lying would. x3
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I remember in book 19 that when Aftran was sad, Karen cried. So what the Yeerk is feeling translated to the host body, causing Karen to cry. So maybe a Yeerk would have trouble, without prior training.
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also regarding aftran, in book 29, she slowed down ax's hearts, at least a little, so they do have somewhat control over involuntary actions.
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You're right. She did. I'm not sure how a Yeerk could do that, though I suppose it goes in the same group of questions as "How does a Yeerk enter the brain through the ear canal without being able to bore a hole through the skull?".
This is a bit off topic, but I don't remember Ax saying anything about it after the book. Did he get over it that quickly?
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I doubt it's something Ax wanted to talk about. Besides, he knew that Aftran saved his life.
It's never really talked about, but I suppose it's possible that the Yeerks have at least a small amount of control over heart rate and similar bodily functions.
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And if what Phoenix said is true, Yeerks should have no problem beating a lie detector :P
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It's possible yes, but as far as I can recall, there isn't anything in the series that would prove it.
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Still, a lie detector is based on heart rate, skin temperature, and other physical factors. If a yeerk could set these to "normal", it could say whatever it wanted and the machine would not be able to detect a discernible difference.
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Which is exactly why lie detectors should not be accepted as evidence in court. Who knows what terrible crimes people with alien slugs in their heads could be getting away with?! :o
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I think if parasitic alien slugs are taking over people's minds, I think we have far larger things to worry about that whether or not some guy stole some jewelry.
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I think if parasitic alien slugs are taking over people's minds, I think we have far larger things to worry about that whether or not some guy stole some jewelry.
Agreed
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I think if parasitic alien slugs are taking over people's minds, I think we have far larger things to worry about that whether or not some guy stole some jewelry.
True, but it's the principle of the matter. Aliens could be committing all kinds of criminal activity and lying about it without detection! The fiends!
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yes somethig should be done to stop them. mabey a secret organiation. that wear suites..... black suites ^-^
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Yeah! Who cares if they're enslaving people, as long as they aren't stealing things!
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Okay, as far as I know a polygraph is worthless it can only tell if a person is nervous or giving off physiological responses. So if someone is nervous and they are telling the truth it will detect a false positive and the inverse. Several experiments have been done and all to the same result... they can be easily tricked. So decieving a lie detector for a yeerk who has complete controll over its host is pretty much easy.
I don't even think they would use a lie detector in the first place. They would be smarter then resorting to that.
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Depending on how reliable it is, even an untrained person can beat a lie detector if you know how to trick it. I read a book once that mentioned a couple of ways of getting around them.
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Don't count on it. A modern polygraph with a trained person administerring the test, and even a well practiced person will have a run for their money to beat it.
I just think that because a Yeerk can have at least some control over body signs and functions, it should be much easier for them.
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The Israelis have a lie detector based on voice that is 98% reliable in detecting lies. This was experimentally verified by myself as a psychology project several years ago. Because the host is liying forcibly, it would be picked up.
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Everyone can fool a lie detector, it's only American people that really believe that this this really works. No offence.
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Anyone with the right training could, but the cops are likely to know who has that training. You are right about America though, as I believe America is the only country where lie detector tests can be used as evidence in court.
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So why do they need the lie detectors then?
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So why do they need the lie detectors then?
So we can get away with stuff of course. I mean come on, we're a bunch of gray slugs trying to enslave humanity here, we like for you to think that you can successfully use lie detectors that don't require a full brain scan since obviously that would reveal us, ruin the invasion, and totally irritate the Visser and . . . oh, you mean Americans . . . okay uh . . . so we can't get away with stuff?
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So why do they need the lie detectors then?
So we can get away with stuff of course. I mean come on, we're a bunch of gray slugs trying to enslave humanity here, we like for you to think that you can successfully use lie detectors that don't require a full brain scan since obviously that would reveal us, ruin the invasion, and totally irritate the Visser and . . . oh, you mean Americans . . . okay uh . . . so we can't get away with stuff?
Thank you for that information, it was very helpful
My name is Marco... (But today I'm pretending to be an innocent 16-year-old girl in European Russia.)
This is a warning. Stay away from the lie detectors next saturday, they will all explode at about 10-11 in the morning
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depends on how much control a yeerk has over a nervous system.
too little and it will go off like a rocket.
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There is another way. Scopolamine, just inject some and it's impossible to lie. Actually I don't get why no nation use that in their courts...
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Wikipedia mentions that Scopolamine was investigated as a truth drug decades ago, but it mainly talks about its various medicinal and hallucinogenic uses.
Let's face it, there are plenty of drugs, legal and illegal, that could be used to make people more likely to tell the truth (alcohol included). However, these things may all affect humans, but it's unlikely that they would affect a Yeerk in the same way, if at all.
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To make this a fair test, we should assume that neither the Yeerk or the host have had training at resisting a lie detector.
The way I see it, the Yeerk would only be able to fool the detector if the Yeerk was capable of controlling the host's involuntary reactions. Since we don't know how much control Yeerks have over that kind of thing, it makes it difficult to say.
Yeah, I agree. If both the Yeerk and human had no knowledge on 'fooling' a lie detector, unless the Yeerk could control involuntary reactions, I doubt it'd be able to pass it.
I like the way your brain works, Mike. That's a pretty imaginative question.
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lol, thanks Ash. My mind works in strange, but interesting ways!
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However, these things may all affect humans, but it's unlikely that they would affect a Yeerk in the same way, if at all.
B-b-but. What about in Visser, where we learn a bit more about how drug abuse affects controllers? Sure, Yeerks have the willpower to break addiction, and certainly look down on addicts, but at the same time mere human emotion and natural hormones nearly prove irresistible--maple/ginger aside.
Yeerks plug directly into their host's brain. I can't see how something with neurological effects doesn't impact the Yeerk.
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True, and yet when a host is unconscious, The Yeerk remains awake. Not to mention the fact that a harmless breakfast cereal is a dangerous psychotic drug for Yeerks, proving that different chemicals affect people and Yeerks differently. Who knows what effects a truth drug would have on a Yeerk? (Assuming it worked at all)
Even here on regular old Earth, drugs can have vastly different effects on the native creatures. Scientists have tested the effects of different drugs on spiders and discovered that LSD (a drug which is disorientating for humans) actually improves a spider's ability to create a perfect web.
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Wikipedia mentions that Scopolamine was investigated as a truth drug decades ago, but it mainly talks about its various medicinal and hallucinogenic uses.
Scopolamine is labeled a "truth drug" is because it limits the creativity of people to make up stuff.
not because it creates an urge to tell the truth.