Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: DinosaurNothlit on February 03, 2009, 01:46:12 PM
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I was just thinking about the idea of racial differences in the alien races in Animorphs, you know, the way we humans have different races depending on what region of the planet you're from. Do you suppose there are subtly different types of Andalites, for example, depending on where they're from on their planet? I can think of a few examples, like how Alloran and Gafinalin (sp?) are more heavily built than Andalites like Ax and Elfangor. But the books don't specify if that's because of regional differences or just random variation.
If there are regional differences in alien species, the effect should, theoretically anyway, be especially pronounced with species like the Hork-Bajir and the Yeerks that have natural barriers on their home world (the valleys for the Hork-Bajir, the natural Yeerk pools for the Yeerks). Hork-Bajir, by all rights, should have drastically different species. Yeerks, maybe not so much, because they could have used Gedds to get from pool to pool. But there still should have been some disparity.
Lol, can you guys tell that I just got out of biology class?
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Yes, and I often wondered this myself. If that particular rule of biology applies, there should be. Hmmm . . . I'll get back to you . . .
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I imagine there would be some racial differences among creatures like yeerks and andalites, BUT i dont think there would be between hork bajr mainly ecause they are a not a natural species instead they were created, so i imagine they would all be relatively the same.
i have wondered though, what other species where on the andalite planet.
it seems to me that for a species so incredibly well evolved that some other semi-sentient race would have evolved by now ???
P.S Sorry for all the typos. i tried to catch as many as i could, but my keyboard's battery is going dead.... :/
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I imagine there would be some racial differences among creatures like yeerks and andalites, BUT i dont think there would be between hork bajr mainly ecause they are a not a natural species instead they were created, so i imagine they would all be relatively the same.
i have wondered though, what other species where on the andalite planet.
it seems to me that for a species so incredibly well evolved that some other semi-sentient race would have evolved by now ???
Yes, but the Hork-Bajir were created long enough ago that they should have experienced some natural evolution by now, right? Any species that cannot evolve won't survive for very long, therefore the Arn would have given them the capacity for evolution. How long was it since the Arn created the Horks?
As for the Andalites, that's . . . actually a really good point. I mean, we humans have chimpanzees as a close, semi-intelligent sort of sibling species of humans. I wonder if there's an 'animal' version of Andalites, as well?
I don't know that that would have anything to do with them being so well-evolved, though. In fact, probably somewhat the opposite. Going back to the human example, the more advanced humans have grown, the more we've driven competing species to extinction.
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thats a darn good point!
but what with them being grazers by nature.... :/
i meant lets say the kafit bird (hope thats the right spelling been a while) because the andalites are such an incredibly old race (V humans whom have only been here a short while) it would be logical to say that something else was darn near if not already at sentience level (the kafit bird being my example)
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Do you suppose there are subtly different types of Andalites, for example, depending on where they're from on their planet?
Andalites don't appear to me as a species who is too keen on adapting to the environment. In the Andalite Chronicle the Andalites was surprised to know that humans weren't "kept out of a place just because the weather's bad" so I guess Andalites only live in parts of the planet where the environment suit them the best. As the result the differences between their races will not be as significance as in human's.
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I think it's interesting but as far as the Andalites go I thought Alloran was more solidly built than Elfangor or Ax because he was older, not because of any racial difference. In The Alien Ax mentions that the then Visser 3 has a physical advantage due to being a fully grown andalite and in Andalite Chronicles Elfangor and Arbon are sent aboard the skrit-na ship because they're younger and smaller than anyone else.
Elfangor was a youth as well during the Chronicles, so again Alloran would have been larger, in The Invasion Jake doesnt seem to notice a difference in size between Elfangor and Visser 3, the difference Jake notices if I recall is in general aura, suggesting I guess that Elfangor grew up and was comparable to Alloran in size.
Nevertheless the idea is a valid one, it makes sense so there probably would be differences, in fact isn't it sort of implied that the yeerks and the race the Animorphs saved from the howlers were likely once relatives that evolved apart? I don't remember that race's name, it's been too long -_-
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Gafinilan and Mertil, however, are described as being very body-builder-muscly like. Well, at least Gafinilan is. Mertil, I think was described as big, but seemed smaller because he was ashamed of his tail.
That's really the only time I remember anyone really commentating on the size of an Andalite.
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Do you suppose there are subtly different types of Andalites, for example, depending on where they're from on their planet?
Andalites don't appear to me as a species who is too keen on adapting to the environment. In the Andalite Chronicle the Andalites was surprised to know that humans weren't "kept out of a place just because the weather's bad" so I guess Andalites only live in parts of the planet where the environment suit them the best. As the result the differences between their races will not be as significance as in human's.
The thing is, though, that all species do this on some level. Any species will tend to spread out as much as it can, to get away from competing individuals, and often has to adapt to new environments in the process. For the dominant species on a planet, and for open-space-requiring grazing animals, this is especially true.
It's just not something anybody talks about in normal conversation. A guy might say, "Who would want to live in Egypt? It's way too hot there," rather than saying, "Hey! I could adapt to Egypt's climate and go there!"
Finally, it's impossible to adapt to every environment simultaneously. So no matter what kind of Andalite you are (if Andalites have racial differences, that is), there would be some sort of environment that would be not be ideal to you. Thus, the quote from the Andalite Chronicles.
Or, I suppose it is possible that the Andalites once had racial differences, but don't anymore, thanks to enough interbreeding between races. Give our own planet long enough, and we're probably headed in the direction of one giant mixed race, too.
Nevertheless the idea is a valid one, it makes sense so there probably would be differences, in fact isn't it sort of implied that the yeerks and the race the Animorphs saved from the howlers were likely once relatives that evolved apart? I don't remember that race's name, it's been too long -_-
You're thinking of the Iskoort. The Yoort portion of the Iskoort split off from the Yeerks and evolved into a different species.
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You're thinking of the Iskoort. The Yoort portion of the Iskoort split off from the Yeerks and evolved into a different species.
Spot on, thanks for naming them, I swear it was in my head somewhere :P
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Or, I suppose it is possible that the Andalites once had racial differences, but don't anymore, thanks to enough interbreeding between races. Give our own planet long enough, and we're probably headed in the direction of one giant mixed race, too.
We're talking biology, right? In biology a "race" is a taxonomic group within a species. In animal species, "races" are also called "subspecies"; in plants, "varieties". Subspecies are defined by geography: subspecies don't gradually blend together and the zone of hybridization (if any) is narrow. If geographic barriers are removed (say, by advances in transportation technology), subspecies merge together--exactly what is happening to H sapiens.
Ketrans, Yeerks, Hork-Bajir, and Ongachic could have the geographic segregation necessary for subspecies to differentiate.
By the way, Ax states (in A08, IIRC) that Worf of Star Trek is an Ognachic female, suggesting that the Ognachic are sexually dimorphic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism). (This doesn't prove anything either way about subspecies, though.)
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Ax addresses this in one of the books, can't remember which one off the top of my head. But he makes mention of humans being strange, "almost a sub-species", in how diverse we are.
From that line, we can probably assume that we're rare in that capacity. ie. Andalites and Hork-Bajir and Taxxons are more or less one and the same, without the physical diversity we have.
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I agree
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It seems the Andalites and Yeerks are pretty amazed by the fact humans exist in the billions, too, so it would seem their populations are drastically smaller overall. Obviously the Hork-Bajir being even fewer again.
But it would definitely seem we're unique in that department, Ax making that comment about humans covering such a vast spectrum it was hard to consider them a single species at all, at least in the same sense as whatever he's used to. They're probably all pretty homogeneous.
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there's always divergent evolution
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They don't realize humans have a constant urge for progress... that helps
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It seems the Andalites and Yeerks are pretty amazed by the fact humans exist in the billions, too, so it would seem their populations are drastically smaller overall. Obviously the Hork-Bajir being even fewer again.
But it would definitely seem we're unique in that department, Ax making that comment about humans covering such a vast spectrum it was hard to consider them a single species at all, at least in the same sense as whatever he's used to. They're probably all pretty homogeneous.
That's a very good point. The books do often mention the fact that earth is unique among the planets for its diversity of life, not just among humans, but all its species. So I guess maybe evolution happens differently on earth than it does everywhere else?
You're probably right about population size being smaller for the alien races, too. I recall in Visser, when they're talking about the ranking of species according to their suitability as hosts, population size was a big factor. And they all seemed totally stunned when they found that a class 5 species (ie, one with a really big population) actually existed.
Hmm. Perhaps most other life-supporting planets are simply smaller in size? That would a) drastically limit population size and b) force populations of creatures together, impeding evolutionary divergence.
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well maybe they came to a point where it was just not neccesary to reproduce... with long lifespans and all
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About smaller size... I don't think the planets are smaller, but look: they don't understand Humans live in every places of their planet, so we can suppose they live only where they feel good, not in the too hot, too cold, too dangerous places.
So the planets don't needa be smaller to "stop" them, just the places are smaller because they don't go in every places of their planet.
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About smaller size... I don't think the planets are smaller, but look: they don't understand Humans live in every places of their planet, so we can suppose they live only where they feel good, not in the too hot, too cold, too dangerous places.
So the planets don't needa be smaller to "stop" them, just the places are smaller because they don't go in every places of their planet.
Exactly my point.
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The long lifespan thing also makes sense for the andalites, fewer generations means less opportunity for rapid evolution, compared to them we humans are pretty short lived.
I'm not sure how long yeerks live though, was that ever mentioned?
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It's implied that the history of the Yeerk/Andalite war is fairly short (by Andalite standards). The invasion of the Hork-Bajir world starts in AD 1966, and Esplin is rising through the ranks at that point. Call it a 40-50 year military career, then and he's not even thinking about retirement. So, yeerks probably don't live shorter than humans--and possibly much longer.
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i read somewhere that andalites have a very long lifespan
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Long lifespan makes sense, as that would slow down evolution. However, that explanation backfires a bit when you consider that it would also make them more competitive (longer life-spans = more resources needed to support each individual), which would force them to spread out even more. Thus pushing them into new environments, where they should begin to diverge.
I'm still not really sure I buy the 'they won't go to places not suited for them' explanation, but I guess it's possible. I'm just such a stickler for details that part of my brain just keeps asking "well, why not?" Why do alien species behave so much differently than species on earth? I guess maybe alien evolution just works differently than evolution on earth, but again, why would that be? We all have the same basic DNA molecules, don't we? At least, I'm fairly certain Ax said so in one of the books.
. . . It's official. I am overanalyzing this.
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Well, it's kind of implied the Andalite's world and the Yeerk's world are so impossibly far away that without Z-Space one could never hope to travel there. Maybe the balances and checks of the way life operates were slightly different, skewed a certain way, more of certain types of atoms/elements/whatever (I know nothing of science, how did you tell? :P) and less of others?
The Yeerk ecosystem, as described, doesn't really seem like something that could ever exist on Earth.
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exactly
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Well, it's kind of implied the Andalite's world and the Yeerk's world are so impossibly far away that without Z-Space one could never hope to travel there. Maybe the balances and checks of the way life operates were slightly different, skewed a certain way, more of certain types of atoms/elements/whatever (I know nothing of science, how did you tell? :P) and less of others?
The Yeerk ecosystem, as described, doesn't really seem like something that could ever exist on Earth.
I . . . suppose that's possible. Still, it strikes me as odd that earth would be the outlier, if that were the case. It seems to me, based on our discussion before now, that almost all planets in the Animorphs universe function one way, and earth functions in another.
But it could be. All the other Animorphs planets might be in a similar region of space, and thus have similar rules. Who knows?
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Actually I got to thinking about this at work (don't ask why, it just popped in there) and I realized the Andalites live for a very long time but reach maturity very quickly. If an Andalite year is like 6 earth years and Ax expects to live 200 andalite yers (when he says that he could live to be 200 years old he doesnt say "earth years" so I figure he means Andalite years) simple math says that's about 1200 years. Now given that Ax is born not so long before Tobias, who was 13 at the start of the series Ax would be about 2 or 3 Andalite years old, yet is already an adolescent.
If Andalites reached sexual maturity at, heck lets say 5 years the've got 195 more years to keep on reproducing and reproducing, their birthrate might be slow and their term long but didn't the Ellimist have 3 surviving Andalite children, and others who didn't? That was the prehistoric andalites, they would have technology by now that would better keep most infants from dying at birth or later from illnesses, and while this might explain why present-day Andalites had restrictions on how many children were allowed to be born outside of war (As stated in the Andalite chronicles) in the thousands of years before they reached that point in time with their natural predators wiped out they'd overrun their grazing areas and have to live in the harsher areas or die of stavation.
So in short, Andalites might have a small controlled population now, but you'd think at some point sheer numbers would have forced their ancestors to explore more of their world . . . then again, maybe they fought a lot of wars, they have a proud warrior tradition after all. Even so I think they'd have to have migrated to various parts of their planet early on, so they should have evolved at least some differences . . .
So yeah, this is what came to me at work . . . you can tell how much I love my job when I start considering the lifespans and evolution of alien species -_-
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I can't remember where it was (Andalite or Hork-Bajir Chronicles, probably), but I do recall one of the Andalites mentioning that they had intentionally de-urbanized, that is, they only kept a few large cities and moved (back) out into the country. That can only happen if they have clean and cheap transportation technology--which would cause subspecies to merge if they existed in the first place.
Also, Andalites don't have much, if any clothing and a strong preference for open spaces. Clothing and shelter is essential to our survival across a broad range of climates. H sapiens is originally a tropical species, after all. (So what the heck am I doing here with a -11C wind chill?)
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JFalcon, where do you see this explanation about Andalite years?
I never saw that. I always thought Andalites live about 150 years, that Aximili was about 20~25 Human years old (few years after the beginning of war... so they grow up more slowly)...
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JFalcon, where do you see this explanation about Andalite years?
I never saw that. I always thought Andalites live about 150 years, that Aximili was about 20~25 Human years old (few years after the beginning of war... so they grow up more slowly)...
In The Alien Ax states he could live to be two hundred, and in the Andalite chronicles Elfangor and Loren only spend three years together on earth before he was taken back, she was pregnant with Tobias then and to the best of Elfangor's knowledge at least, Ax hadn't been born before he got to earth so at best Ax would be about 3 years older than Tobias, who was roughly thirteen at the start of the Animorphs, so Ax would be between 16 and 13 in human years.
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While I agree with your general assessment, that first part about Ax's quote regarding 'living to two-hundred' shouldn't be taken on face-value, unless there are other instances in the books (I can't quite remember, honestly, there may have been) to back it up.
He could just as easily be saying that as a colloquialism, along the lines of "I haven't seen you in AGES!" or "the train was moving a million miles an hour when it hit the car", or whatever else. It doesn't necessarily mean Andalites live to approximately 200 years old, although they may do. It's just not exactly hard evidence.
It would make sense, however, considering Alloran holding a reasonably high rank already in the 1960's. He was already some type of field commander, which would make you assume he's been around for a while prior to the Seerow incident.
But yeah, the Ax comment is kind of flimsy, if that's the only instance in the books it's mentioned.
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I considered Ax might have been exadurating but he might also have been understating, we relly have no way of knowing just how long an Andalite lives so I just guessed based on the only information offered, I'm well willing to admit it's only a guess :)
I don't think it's ever mentioned in any book what the Andalite life expectancy might be, however, the Alien--which I'd read recently, I'm going down the list right now--is the one spot I can think of.
There is Alloran who was fully grown during the Hork-Bajir war and isn't slowing down by the end of the Earth war, Alloran may have been in his middle age by the end of the Earth war but I don't think he was elderly.
Just like with the yeerks, or even Hork-Bajir and Taxxons there's a lot about these alien species we don't know, kind of makes me wish K.A. had made or authorized a source book or something :(
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It definitely would make sense and seem accurate for Andalites to have a long life expectancy, but I guess all I'm saying is there really isn't any hard data, so throwing out specific numbers would seem a little unwise.
Even with Alloran in a position of military power in the 1960's, earth time, he still wouldn't really have to be anywhere near 200 years old for that to be the case. He could have been the equivalent of 40 or 50 back then, making him 75 or 85 by the time of the human conflict. It'd seem a little strange for Alloran to have been in excess of a century old by the time of the Hork-Bajir war.
That being said, I'd agree they probably do live longer than humans, on average. There's just no canon data to support or clarify that.
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I know, the numbers weren't meant to seem like hard facts, just guestimations in the spirit of trying to figure things out. As you say we have no hard facts so it's impossible to know for sure, the one thing we can firmly reason out is that the andalites have long lifespans but again the actual number is all nothing but guess work.
It's probably not important either, but sometimes I have too much fun with numbers, I think on some level I like to see everything numerically. :)
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I definitely agree that Andalites probably live longer than humans. Like others have said, Alloran was a full-grown Andalite in HBC, yet he sure didn't seem to be in his 70s or 80s by the end of the series.
I don't think we can trust book #8 for an exact statistic, though. After all, wasn't that also the book where Ax said that the Hork-Bajir have a biological clock that set them warring every however many years? And yet, in HBC, Dak has no idea that he can use his blades to hurt people. ::)
Actually I got to thinking about this at work (don't ask why, it just popped in there) and I realized the Andalites live for a very long time but reach maturity very quickly. If an Andalite year is like 6 earth years and Ax expects to live 200 andalite yers (when he says that he could live to be 200 years old he doesnt say "earth years" so I figure he means Andalite years) simple math says that's about 1200 years. Now given that Ax is born not so long before Tobias, who was 13 at the start of the series Ax would be about 2 or 3 Andalite years old, yet is already an adolescent.
If Andalites reached sexual maturity at, heck lets say 5 years the've got 195 more years to keep on reproducing and reproducing, their birthrate might be slow and their term long but didn't the Ellimist have 3 surviving Andalite children, and others who didn't? That was the prehistoric andalites, they would have technology by now that would better keep most infants from dying at birth or later from illnesses, and while this might explain why present-day Andalites had restrictions on how many children were allowed to be born outside of war (As stated in the Andalite chronicles) in the thousands of years before they reached that point in time with their natural predators wiped out they'd overrun their grazing areas and have to live in the harsher areas or die of stavation.
So in short, Andalites might have a small controlled population now, but you'd think at some point sheer numbers would have forced their ancestors to explore more of their world . . . then again, maybe they fought a lot of wars, they have a proud warrior tradition after all. Even so I think they'd have to have migrated to various parts of their planet early on, so they should have evolved at least some differences . . .
So yeah, this is what came to me at work . . . you can tell how much I love my job when I start considering the lifespans and evolution of alien species -_-
First off, it was pointed out earlier that slow maturation would also slow down evolution. Maybe they couldn't cope with the new environments quickly enough to make the switch. Also, what you said about their technology (and the absence of predators) enabling them to spread to all corners of the world has a flaw . . . Because you know what else slows down, and maybe even stops, evolution? Civilization. In a world where it's no longer survival of the fittest, and just survival of everybody, how can you have evolution? Sure, the outright vecols are eliminated from the gene pool, but everyone else lives happily ever after. No, I'm talking about evolution that happened in prehistoric times, before civilization happened.
Anyway, next point. We've said that slow-aging could slow down evolution, as would be the case with Andalites and Yeerks. What about the Hork-Bajir, though? They must age insanely quick, because Toby, who was born sometime after book 13, was just about grown up by the end of the series. By the same logic that we're using for the Andalites that they shouldn't evolve as fast, the other side of the coin is that the Hork-Bajir should evolve at absolutely ludicrous speeds.
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JFalcon, where do you see this explanation about Andalite years?
I never saw that. I always thought Andalites live about 150 years, that Aximili was about 20~25 Human years old (few years after the beginning of war... so they grow up more slowly)...
In The Alien Ax states he could live to be two hundred, and in the Andalite chronicles Elfangor and Loren only spend three years together on earth before he was taken back, she was pregnant with Tobias then and to the best of Elfangor's knowledge at least, Ax hadn't been born before he got to earth so at best Ax would be about 3 years older than Tobias, who was roughly thirteen at the start of the Animorphs, so Ax would be between 16 and 13 in human years.
Only 3 years? I should re-read that... I thought it was more. And how much time when they traveled and was on the Taxxon planet? You should count from the moment he has no news about his parents... Maybe they didn't call him even months before he left the Dome ship with Arbron and Alloran...
PS: If you find how long each species live, how long they need to be adult, etc. it must help me for the role-playing game. So please tell me your conclusions ^^
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It's grantable that Elfangor had no contact with his parents however you'd think he'd be mad if he was still doing the wish flower ceremony and his brother was already born :P
PS: If you find how long each species live, how long they need to be adult, etc. it must help me for the role-playing game. So please tell me your conclusions ^^
That's why I think it'd be neat if K.A. approved or wrote a source book, just imagine Animorphs: D20 with miniatures and everything . . . man that'd be fun, I could get my friends to stop trying to force Dragon Lance down my throat :P
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I seem to remember she/Michael had one planned, toward the end of the publishing run. They scrapped it for reasons unknown. But yeah, 10 years ago that would have been an awesome thing to accompany the series finale.
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It's grantable that Elfangor had no contact with his parents however you'd think he'd be mad if he was still doing the wish flower ceremony and his brother was already born :P
PS: If you find how long each species live, how long they need to be adult, etc. it must help me for the role-playing game. So please tell me your conclusions ^^
That's why I think it'd be neat if K.A. approved or wrote a source book, just imagine Animorphs: D20 with miniatures and everything . . . man that'd be fun, I could get my friends to stop trying to force Dragon Lance down my throat :P
And I'd be glad if you try this Animorphs Role-Playing Game when it'll be almost finished and translated in English ^^ But we won't use D20, but D10. Sorry for the D&D lovers... It'll work more like Vampire The Mascarade...
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And I'd be glad if you try this Animorphs Role-Playing Game when it'll be almost finished and translated in English ^^ But we won't use D20, but D10. Sorry for the D&D lovers... It'll work more like Vampire The Mascarade...
Hmm, I've never tried that game . . . but I've got lots of D10s. Dual wielding [handandhalf]swords and dwarven battleaxes for the win! :P
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I know that one Andalite year is 84 human months, but I'm not sure how long they live for.
Above this, somebody mentioned that Ax's comment about living 200 years could have been a colliquealism. I disagree. Not only is Ax generally confused when people use colliquealisms, I have never heard an Andalite use one. In fact, Ax makes a point of saying that he doesn't understand why some species use those kind of things and don't say what they really mean.
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Elfangor and Arbron use a whole lot of human-like expressions/equivalents in TAC. 'Nuff said.
Just because most of the Andalites we encounter are stuffy formal military types, doesn't mean more casual demeanor doesn't exist among them. Arbron was basically Marco with a tail.
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And I'd be glad if you try this Animorphs Role-Playing Game when it'll be almost finished and translated in English ^^ But we won't use D20, but D10. Sorry for the D&D lovers... It'll work more like Vampire The Mascarade...
I got to play vamp once.... it was interesting.