Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: AniJen on January 20, 2009, 02:15:46 AM
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If you think she would have done something else, please post it. I joined this site recently so if this was a disussion not long ago then I apologize, but I'm really curious what you guys think she would have become. And to add to it all, if she lived what would you think would become of the other characters affected by her death? (i.e. Jake and Tobias?)
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I dunno. i think she might have ended up like Jake, restless, and purposeless. But she may still have been able to be with tobias...though I'm not sure how long that would have lasted.
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I agree with that myself. Tobias and Cassie tended to be the more moralizing of the group, Rachel and Marco more about the results no matter the moral dilemma. Even Tobias probably would not have been able to stay with the Postwar version of Rachel. I think ultimately Tobias would have always sought seclusion as a hawk.
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maybe he would have tagged along for awhile?
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I believe so. He would hold on to the fact that she could be the old Rachel that he loved. But long term, not sure. He insists that he would morph human and stay that way because it would mean that he was out of the fight. But was that the reason or the excuse? Even the other Animoprhs say they thought he preferred this body (hawk) and even stated that they had never asked him but thought perhaps he became a nothlit on purpose. Rachel had her issues but so did he, who knows if that would have lasted...
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Well, in one of my fanfics I figured that Tobias and Rachel would get married and live together, but Rachel would turn to some extreme sports (rock climbing in particular) to get that rush she wanted.
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but Rachel would turn to some extreme sports (rock climbing in particular) to get that rush she wanted.
I never really considered that . . . that's quite plausible . . .
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I remember Jake deciding to fight against terrorists to have something to do. Rachel would likely do that too. She might join the military or become a policewoman. Or maybe extreme sports or something. There are a lot of things to do.
Jake wouldn't have been as depressed if Rachel and Tom survived, though he may be down about past decisions. Rachel could have helped him with that.
I could imagine Tobias becoming a Human nothlit after being convinced by rachel and his mom. Maybe taking a job as a pilot after that.
It's the kind of ending I would write.
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If Rachel lived, I think that Tobias would be a lot more friendly. He kind of vanished after Rachel died.
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yeah cuz he really had nothing to live for anymore. he was one of those that needed that unconditional love, that attention. And when its not there, they would rather be by themselves, even if it hurts, hoping someone will come and rescue them.
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Rachel was like Tobias's beacon to follow. When she went out, he had no where to go and became lost. He was constantly in pain. If she had not gone out, he would have continued to follow her and be out in the world.
Wow. Sudden weirdly deep words. Sorry.
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1 sounds the nicest.
i don't know though..
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Rachel was like Tobias's beacon to follow. When she went out, he had no where to go and became lost. He was constantly in pain. If she had not gone out, he would have continued to follow her and be out in the world.
Wow. Sudden weirdly deep words. Sorry.
Yeah, if you ignore Ax and his mom. I can understand him not liking Jake, who gave the order for her to do that mission, but it's not like he didn't have anything left at all.
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He kinda only had the sky. Which was where he found comfort, as he says in 3.
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i tink he jumped the gun. but then again, you lost the only girl you've ever really loved who loved you back. Sure, Ax and Jake were there, sure his mom too, but its not the same as your significant other.
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Yeah, you might need more when you're a hawk. I think he feels lonely. Rachel really loved him, and his lonliness returned when she died.
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poor guy. i think he would have died pathetically
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Yeah, once Rachel died, she basically doomed him to a life of misery. GOD it's so depressing, I remember I was torn up about it for like a month when I first read it.
The main reason being that I think I identify with Tobias the most. While I'm lucky enough to have a few friends and family, I was never the cool guy at school (like Marco and Jake seem to be), and I never had a girlfriend back then. So when Tobias nabbed Rachel, it was like a victory for all the quiet guys out there, lol.
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I KNOW! THESE THINGS MAKE ME DEPRESSED!
yeah, victory for tobias...but epic fail at the end. >.<
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It's like, "Someone who cares!" Then, "No, person who cares dies.
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oh my gosh. you know what song fits?
home by vanessa carlton, the song makes me sad!!
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It looks like most ppl feel that Rachel would have either run off with her man.. err.. bird, or find crazy things to do as an adrenaline junkie. Do you guys think she would have had a happy life with any option? I just kind of see her character as tragic even if she lived or died by the way her character was written in the last few books. Even her mother thought she was lost at one point (when Rachel tried to run over the army guys by stepping on her mom's foot on the pedal). She realized how far Rachel was willing to go. I would have liked to have Rachel's dad there at the end in the valley somehow too.
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It looks like most ppl feel that Rachel would have either run off with her man.. err.. bird, or find crazy things to do as an adrenaline junkie. Do you guys think she would have had a happy life with any option? I just kind of see her character as tragic even if she lived or died by the way her character was written in the last few books. Even her mother thought she was lost at one point (when Rachel tried to run over the army guys by stepping on her mom's foot on the pedal). She realized how far Rachel was willing to go. I would have liked to have Rachel's dad there at the end in the valley somehow too.
Or at least SOME mention of him would've been nice. They basically said "I brought my mom and sister's to the valley, there wasn't enough time to go get my dad", and that was the last we heard about him. Ah, well.......
But yeah, I also think here character was tragic. Also, I hate to say it, but after thinking it through, I think Rachel and Tobias' relationship was doomed. I TRULY couldn't see Tobias giving up being a hawk forever and without the war as a excuse reason, I'm sure Rachel would put the pressure on him to do so.
She'd probably wait it out for him to do it for a while, but after so long, I think she'd get tired of it and leave him.
Just like Rachel was a tragic character, Tobias was equally (if not more so) tragic. Much as it pains me to say it, he was bound to have a sad ending. But at least if she was alive, he'd have been able to face society.
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I actually always thought Rachel would be able to manage fine without the war. She's been known to easily adapt to situations(Look how nicely she adapted to the war so it wouldn't be too hard for her to get used to the Yeerks being gone) Plus it's not like she wouldn't be able to fight or have fun anymore. She could join the military and train morph-capable soldiers or she could be an adrenalin junkie and do some extreme sports, either way she'd have a happy life with Tobias. I actually think if Rachel and Tom didnt die, there'd be a much happier ending. Jake wouldn't be as depressed, Tobias wouldn't be a stupid emo, Jake and Cassie might've still had a chance, and maybe if Ax saw how happy things were on earth, he'd decide to stay instead of going back to his homeworld and being eaten by "the one", thus preventing the deaths of Jake, Marco, and Tobias.
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Thank you! Someone agrees with me. The war seemed to take a bigger toll on Cassie than most of the others because she hated it all, but she drifted seemlessly between war and peace.
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I'm gonna go with option #2. Just cause the war is over, doesn't mean that the government would be any less paranoid in the aftermath. If fact, they'd likely over react, hoping to want help and get as much of an edge they can over this whole new enemy that came out of no where. Even with the Andalites coming to aid Earth, it wouldn't ease the situation any further. The Andalites weren't saints, and unlike the Animorphs learning of this the hard way, I doubt that the government would be as trusting as them in the first place. Suspicions would arise of the Andalites visiting Earth afterwards.
Afterall, the planet just got invaded by an nearly invisible enemy, do you really think it seems logical that they would automatically trust the next alien species that came along? The government would try to list the help of the Animorphs (covert ops, gathering information,.. whatever), and I don't see Rachel turning down an offer like that either. In fact, I can see Tobias joining her also.
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*nods at Lazy Reaper*
And give a Tobias another excuse not be a human nothlit.
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As long as Rachel had a goal and it involved action and violence, she would be ok. But for how long? Tobias loved her but how long did he really want to fight. But I agree with the fact that Tobias would use it as an excuse to stay hawk.
I also think the way he left his mom and Ax was wrong. He went to hide as a hawk then face humanity again; to drown in self pity. He was all his mother had. He's doing what he did when he was tortured; hiding in the hawk mind so he doesn't have to face anything himself (which was protection then, but selfish now i think). Not the best ending for the son of Elfangor...
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I wonder whatever happened to Loren, anyway?
I imagine she didnt go back to her ****hole of a home.....
Also, I think if Rachel and Tom had both lived, Jake definetly wouldn't have been as depressed. I'm sure he'd have problems, but nothing I think he couldn't overcome. He and Cassie would've gotten married for sure.
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Thank you! Someone agrees with me. The war seemed to take a bigger toll on Cassie than most of the others because she hated it all, but she drifted seemlessly between war and peace.
I don't even think Cassie took a huge toll. I'd say Jake and Tobias were the ones that changed the most because of the war.
Tobias went from bully magnet, to actually being a pretty cool character,to empty shell of his former self, to Elfangor's son, then back to that empty shell after Rachel died.
Jake went from normal kid without a care in the world, then to the leader of the Animorphs, to a abnormal kid with weight of the world on his shoulders, then to a child who's gone though things that most adults will never go through, and finally, to a man who was, like Tobias, an empty and depressed shell of his former self
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I agree with Blue. Cassie may have hated the war the most, but it never got as personal for her as it did the others. All the guys had family members who were directly affected by the war. Rachel had the Tom connection too, but she also the most affected by Melissa, and the David situation --caused by the war-- also had a hand in making things more personal. Cassie never had to deal with any of those things. Honestly, I think she got off comparitively easy.
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I agree with Blue. Cassie may have hated the war the most, but it never got as personal for her as it did the others. All the guys had family members who were directly affected by the war. Rachel had the Tom connection too, but she also the most affected by Melissa, and the David situation --caused by the war-- also had a hand in making things more personal. Cassie never had to deal with any of those things. Honestly, I think she got off comparitively easy.
Maybe KA was trying to say something to us?
The peace-lover (and I say that with love) prospers, [spoiler]while her polar opposite (violence-prone Rachel) dies.[/spoiler]
Or maybe I'm just reading too far into it.....
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Hmmm . . . or maybe you've hit the nail on the head, KOFSoldier. . . . Hmmm . . .
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No. Peace lovers die holding onto their ideals. Warriors win and either become heroes or monsters.
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No. Peace lovers die holding onto their ideals. Warriors win and either become heroes or monsters.
Truer words were never spoken
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No. Peace lovers die holding onto their ideals. Warriors win and either become heroes or monsters.
Normally, I'd agree with you.
But I meant the kind of message that KA was trying to convey to us.
[spoiler]Even Marco (in all his riches and glory and girlfriends) grew to be bored of his life. Cassie seemed to be the only one who enjoyed her life to the fullest. Also, she might even be the only one alive after the end (though, I seriously doubt the others died in that collision). She had a steady, important, fulfilling job and a seemingly healthy relationship (Ronnie be damned, she did seem to love him though).
[/spoiler]
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Boredom does not mean you lack something in life. Everyone gets bored. I'm not sure what KA is trying to say, because I've already said that kind of message is wrong. And I'm not surprised that Cassie seemed to get more out of life after the war, since she because the special pet over time. Even her betrayal didn't seem to bother the entire group much.
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Boredom does not mean you lack something in life. Everyone gets bored. I'm not sure what KA is trying to say, because I've already said that kind of message is wrong. And I'm not surprised that Cassie seemed to get more out of life after the war, since she because the special pet over time. Even her betrayal didn't seem to bother the entire group much.
I agree, everyone does get bored.
But I think it's something different when you get bored of being a rich and famous playboy. Especially, when not even 3 years ago, you were a broke kid with no luck with ladies.
Maybe she wants us to hold on to our ideals. She's already said that she identifies with Cassie the most, I'm pretty sure her message is that we shouldn't give in on our own morals and ideals, lest we lead a life of misery.
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Tobias was supposed to be come some hard kind of guy as opposed to the bully magnet he was. People die all the time, and although some people, like Marco's dad, take it really hard, other people manage to overcome it either through their friends or through their own strength. I don't feel the rest of the animorphs had a good opportunity to help him, just proving he was still the same old bully magnet without his singular source of strength.
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Tobias was supposed to be come some hard kind of guy as opposed to the bully magnet he was. People die all the time, and although some people, like Marco's dad, take it really hard, other people manage to overcome it either through their friends or through their own strength. I don't feel the rest of the animorphs had a good opportunity to help him, just proving he was still the same old bully magnet without his singular source of strength.
Yeah, I agree. I swear, to this day, Tobias is the most tragic character I have ever read about, and I'm currently taking American Lit. II!
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I wonder what would have happened if Tobias died and Rachel lived...
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I wonder what would have happened if Tobias died and Rachel lived...
now THAT'S something to think about. i figured that near the end they were a tad co-dependent on each other. what i mean is, they needed each other. Rachel was Tobias's link to humanity, and Tobias is what kept Rachel sane.
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Yeah, I would've loved to see what would've happened to Rachel if Tobias died.
Especially if it was Jake that sent him to his death, that would've made for some interesting insight....
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. . . Hmmm, I wonder if Rachel would go to the extreme of killing Jake if that did, in fact, occur. . . . Hmmm . . .
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. . . Hmmm, I wonder if Rachel would go to the extreme of killing Jake if that did, in fact, occur. . . . Hmmm . . .
That would have made Crayak's day...
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Yeah, I would've loved to see what would've happened to Rachel if Tobias died.
Especially if it was Jake that sent him to his death, that would've made for some interesting insight....
someone should do a fanfic on this... i would read it
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. . . Hmmm, I wonder if Rachel would go to the extreme of killing Jake if that did, in fact, occur. . . . Hmmm . . .
That would have made Crayak's day...
LOL, yes it would have. I think it would've also made, by far, the most dramatic twist in the story. I mean, seriously, would anyone have seen that coming? She could've done it in a fit of rage or something, and then spent the rest of her life in misery over what she'd done.
fao13 is right, someone really needs to write a fic about this.
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*chuckles*
Yes, I wouldn't expect that twist. And I mean that sincerely. Rachel probably would have felt guilt in also knowing that she did exactly what Crayak wanted her to do. . . .
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*chuckles*
Yes, I wouldn't expect that twist. And I mean that sincerely. Rachel probably would have felt guilt in also knowing that she did exactly what Crayak wanted her to do. . . .
Maybe, maybe not. But I really don't think she would have killed him. Kick his @$$ sure, but not kill him. I think she would think about it, even attack him. But I think she would show enough restraint. Plus, Jake isn't exactly the weakest Animorph. He would know her enough to be ready for an attack. Tiger vs Grizzly? Make a great showdown.
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*chuckles*
Yes, I wouldn't expect that twist. And I mean that sincerely. Rachel probably would have felt guilt in also knowing that she did exactly what Crayak wanted her to do. . . .
Maybe, maybe not. But I really don't think she would have killed him. Kick his @$$ sure, but not kill him. I think she would think about it, even attack him. But I think she would show enough restraint. Plus, Jake isn't exactly the weekest Animorph. He would know her enough to be ready for an attack. Tiger vs Grizzly? Make a great showdown.
That would be good, too.
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I really think if it got down to a fight between Jake and Rachel, the other Animorphs would intervene cuz I think they all know by now that if those two fight then one of them is gonna end up dead.
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Just like in the Return where she goes off to kill Jake. That book was wayy too confusing at times with the dreams inside dreams.
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oh yeah. that'd be awesome. we should write it together!
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I was reading that thread with the Q&A and this answer seemed good to post in this thread.
RAF: Why where you so cruel to tobias by taking rachel away from him?
K&M: Tobias was destined for a life of sadness, don't you think? But there was always nobility in his sadness. As for Rachel, she was the ultimate warrior: without a war to fight, what would she have done? And what better way for her to go than by fighting a desperate battle against impossible odds?
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There was a kind of nobility in his sadness, until the end when he definitely had better options to go with. And I've already run down a list multiple times of what Rachel could have done after the war.
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oh yeah. that'd be awesome. we should write it together!
Wait, like write what would have happened if Rachel lived, or better yet, if Rachel lived her dream and didnt realize it. That would be sweet. Oh sweet Oedipal tragedy...
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yes yes. write together as an RAfian project.
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Sure, what the heck.
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RACHEL AND TOBIAS WOULD HAVE LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna sit here, cover my ears, sing "LA LA LA LAAAAAAAA! LA LA LA LAAAAAAA! I CAN'T HEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAR YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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You know what? I think you're all making Rachel out to be this psycho-killer that she actually wasn't. In any way. Jesus Horace Ernie Christ.
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Jesus Horace Ernie Christ.
First off, Ernie?
Second, I think she was a bit of both. She did have a large blood thirst, but it's not like she was incapable of going back to normal life.
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She had a thrill-thirst. Not a blood thirst. Different things. Very different things.
And I'll use his full name if I want to. Hmph.
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I voted for #1, but she'd probably also do #5 aswell. And she and Tobias would have little animorph babies running amok.
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I voted for one because it would have been nice, but I can see her doing 2 instead/also.
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I also think the way he left his mom and Ax was wrong. He went to hide as a hawk then face humanity again; to drown in self pity. He was all his mother had. He's doing what he did when he was tortured; hiding in the hawk mind so he doesn't have to face anything himself (which was protection then, but selfish now i think). Not the best ending for the son of Elfangor...
The way he left his mum was not wrong at all, her DOG was all she had. She could not even remember him as her son because the Ellimist already wiped out that part of her memory. So how was he supposed to live with her when she loved her dog than him? And he didn't leave Ax, Ax left him when he went back to his home world and became a war prince remember? So his actions were not selfish at all. The hawk mind is very strong and that's what he needed to cope with Rachel's death.
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So his actions were not selfish at all. The hawk mind is very strong and that's what he needed to cope with Rachel's death.
Going into hawk morph to 'cope' with a heart-breaking death is no different than coping by consuming a boatload of alcohol. It's not so much coping as it is numbing the pain. It's not a legitimate solution. The small glimpse of his mind that we get at #54 only mentions Rachel briefly. He didn't deal with it, he ran away to the back of his hawk mind and has been trying to drown out the complexity of his human emotions.
It was selfish. Sorry. Even if he didn't have a bond with his mother, the possibility was there; they had chemistry, and a much better way of trying to cope with the loss of his strongest tie to humans would've been to try to build a new one with his biological mother. I believe that is what Rachel would've wanted too. Instead, he joins Jake and Marco on their suicide mission and his mother will have to deal with the guilt of an unknown fate for her son.
To answer the topic question, I earnestly believe Rachel would've done a better job of moving on than Jake. She'd eventually transition her thrill-thirst (as someone else mentioned) to a healthier outlet, even if it took time to adjust.
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So his actions were not selfish at all. The hawk mind is very strong and that's what he needed to cope with Rachel's death.
Going into hawk morph to 'cope' with a heart-breaking death is no different than coping by consuming a boatload of alcohol. It's not so much coping as it is numbing the pain. It's not a legitimate solution. The small glimpse of his mind that we get at #54 only mentions Rachel briefly. He didn't deal with it, he ran away to the back of his hawk mind and has been trying to drown out the complexity of his human emotions.
It was selfish. Sorry. Even if he didn't have a bond with his mother, the possibility was there; they had chemistry, and a much better way of trying to cope with the loss of his strongest tie to humans would've been to try to build a new one with his biological mother. I believe that is what Rachel would've wanted too. Instead, he joins Jake and Marco on their suicide mission and his mother will have to deal with the guilt of an unknown fate for her son.
Ok. If that's what you believe then fine, but I don't agree with that. I don't remember reading that his mother even tried to look for him after the war. I don't see any possibility of him bonding with her, except if the Ellimist wanted to help him out there which he didn't. Yeah Rachel would've wanted that, i want it so much too but there was no indication in the last book that left us hoping that he would get some happiness through his mother. K.A completely sealed that part.
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I can't believe that first option is so popular. That's really not who the character was.
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Yeah I'm not sure why she'd want to avoid the public eye, and I find it sad that number 3 got the second highest votes.
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I can't imagine any of these options, but I have to say I think the first and the second options are the most probable ones.
I can't believe that first option is so popular. That's really not who the character was.
At first I thought the same but I think it isn't that out of character.
quote author=Chad30 link=topic=2135.msg702846#msg702846 date=1327682031]
Yeah I'm not sure why she'd want to avoid the public eye, and I find it sad that number 3 got the second highest votes.
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Rachel was, when the war started a person which stood always in the center of attention because she was a really beautiful girl and then during the war she split up in to halves: The stronger side in her was addicted to the war and the fight, it was ruthless and, at some times, cruel. This was the half that liked to stand in the center of attention, but the other half was almost shy and wanted to get some peace. We saw these to sides really good in the starfish book. But it also showed during the series that at some points the 'weak' side came through but she pushed it aside because she wanted to fight the war.
But I could imagine that these weak side would come through after the war. When she'd realize that there is no more fighting I think she would calm down after a while. She realized in the war what she became and she was afraid of herself at some points but she always pushed it all aside for the sake of the war. But when it all would be over she would have to face what she became and she would have to deal with it because there would be no more excuses for her ruthlessness. And I could really imagine that she would avoid the public eye for a while to take her time to figure out who and how she is. And I think she would do this with Tobias because she gave very much of what he thought about her and also because he was the one who made her humanity show.
So I think the first option isn't that odd. But I also think it would be just a temporary option for her recovery.
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I wouldn't blame any of them if they wanted some alone time to recuperate after the war. Just not that they'd be broken for the rest of their lives like KA said they would.
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No, I also think they wouldn't be as broken as KA said it, and I really don't think Rachel wouldn't be capable to have a normal life. She would need some time, sure, but she is such a strong character, she could deal with it.