Richard's Animorphs Forum
Animorphs Section => Animorphs Forum Classic => Topic started by: CounterInstinct on June 05, 2008, 09:10:51 AM
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He promised to Tobias in #13 that he would give Tobias the thing he wants right? Well, before Tobias got his "wish", he always daydreamed about being human (getting an easy breakfast, warm cozy bed, Rachel...) plus he also said that
Would the Ellimist give me back my human body and let me keep my morphing power? I hoped so. I'd hate to think that I would never fly again.
isn't that what Tobias wanted? To become human with bird powers.... err... morphing powers?
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But remember, the Ellimist also said, "yes but do you know, Tobias? And if I give it to you, will you still know?"
I think that's what tobias thought he wanted, but deep down inside he wanted to be human. The ellimist gave him that. The power to become fully human.
That's what I think anyway.
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Yeah, essentially he believed he wanted to be human again, but didn't consciously realise that that meant going back to his old life, which he hated. A number of times, up until he got his morphing power back, it was clear that he hated not being able to fight alongside his friends. That's what he really wanted, so that's what the Ellimist gave him.
But the Ellimist also made it so he could hang out as a human with his friends. Because he had that ability he could have chosen to be completely human if he wanted. Clearly, he didn't want that.
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Yeah I agree. The only way I see Tobias ever returning to human form permanantly would have been if the war had been won and Rachel had lived. That's the only way, cause Rachel kept pressuring him to change to human and if the war was over then he could finally do it without worrying about leaving his friends.
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yea, it was one of those tricky ones, he didnt give him absolutely everything he wanted, or said he wanted, to be human w/ the morphing power, he gave him one or the other, knowing he would pick the morphing power
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I think that what Tobias wanted was to become human and retain the morphing power. Whether he took everything that meant (ie returning to a crappy home life) into account or not is kind of irrelevent. I think that the Ellimist ended up splitting hairs. Maybe turning Tobias back into a human and giving him the morphing power would bend the rules too far. Maybe it had to be one or the other, and Ellimist chose the one that helped Earth as a whole.
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well thats the thing, the ellimist didnt choose, he gave tobias the choice
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I don't think he really did give Tobias a choice. He just made it seem like there was a choice involved. Just like in #7 there was a "choice" that wasn't really a choice.
Because we all know that Tobias needs to be tortured even more.
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well, maybe he saw that if he had returned to human permanently then it would have screwed up alot of things, he prob would have been infested straight away in 23 if he was still living with his uncle
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I think he got what he wanted.
I mean if Tobias wanted to be human, yeah he could have done it. He'd have to pull out of the fight, so maybe that's way he didn't, maybe he didn't want to leave his friends, maybe he didn't want to give up morphing. But if he had wanted to be human he could have done it, so I think he got what he wanted most.
Besides so much of Tobias's story is about how he was screwed over as a human, and how he came to accept, even enjoy life as a hawk.
Can't have your cake and it too, I suppose
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I've reread the 13th book last night, and I don't know, I just thought about things up. Man, I can't help feeling sorry for the Bird-boy... :-\
Anyway, Tobias actually wanted to become human and retain morphing power, that was what he wanted.
However, as morfowt pointed out, the Ellimist said:
"AND WHAT DO YOU WANT IN RETURN?
"Well, you know..."
YES, BUT DO YOU KNOW TOBIAS? AND IF YOU HAVE IT, WILL YOU STILL KNOW?"
Tobias thought he wanted to become human again, but later in the final chapter of the book, he realizes that life as a human Tobias sucked anyway. No cozy bed, no delicious (but still easy) breakfast... the only thing he would gain from being human again is Rachel and the others. He was just satisfied in gaining the morphing power back... sure, the "Ellimist" "cheated" him, but he couldn't do anything about that.
Tobias, suddenly being in his room again, back in time, was just a bonus. I guess the Ellimist thought that what he did was fair enough, and gave him a chance to become human once in a while. That way, he would always be anything he wants. To be a hawk. And a boy. I think he got what he wanted.
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To be perfectly honest, Tobias was a whiney little **** throughout most of the first half of the series. :(
He bettered himself though, so I guess it's all good. I did feel sorry for him post-Pool Ship showdown, so I guess he wasn't irredeemable. Just...man. That feeling-sorry-for-myself in his first few books got old real fast.
Ellimist was just being Ellimist, y'know? He didn't cheat, he didn't lie, he just wasn't clear on specifics. Vague. Not necessarily lying or deceiving. Just omitting.
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Hey! Don't diss the bird-boy! ;D
Seriously, he wasn't whiney. In fact, he tried his best not to feel sorry for himself. Imagine yourself living your life as a bird. Forever. YOu can't even touch the people you love. You have to kill rabbits and mice to live. No warm bed.
Or take it farther back, you never knew your parents, and neither your aunt of uncle never wanted you. Plus you were a bully magnet. Can you still be happy?
He wasn't feeling sorry for himself back in number 3 and 13, in fact, it was Rachel and Jake who worried about Tobias the most, and Tobias just resents that Jake and Rachel worry about him.
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The Ellimist just did the bare minimum to get Tobias back in the game. There was nothing benevolent about the whole regifting him his morphing power. Remember, he had chosen Tobias to fight the Yeerks because he was Elfangor's son (he stacked the deck to begin with). It didn't really matter what Tobias wanted cause the Ellimist didn't care. He just needed Tobias to be more useful in the fight against the Yeerks.
As always, the Ellimist was just serving his own purposes.
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Again, him stacking the deck is only something people assumed (or in drode's case, accused), but it hasn't been confirmed.
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It's certainly consistent with his character and documented actions. It'd be far more surprising if he hadn't.
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The Ellimist never does anything in a straightforward manner.
He gives people what they want but not what they need, JMO.
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But remember, the Ellimist also said, "yes but do you know, Tobias? And if I give it to you, will you still know?"
I think that's what tobias thought he wanted, but deep down inside he wanted to be human. The ellimist gave him that. The power to become fully human.
That's what I think anyway.
But for only 2 hours at a time!
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I feel like Tobias got what he wanted. His life as a human was awful, and deep down inside he didn't really want it. He got his morphing powers back, it will allow him to get back in the fight. That's what Tobias really wanted. :)
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I think it was a combination of factors. Part of it was the fact that, yeah, Tobias didn't really quite completely want to be human again. There was a part of him that did, and a part of him that didn't, and I guess the Ellimist decided to listen to the part that didn't. P.S. I never really believed the whole "oh, a tiger/horse/gorilla/elephant were able to get out of the Yeerk pool but the hawk apparently wasn't stealthy enough to give the guards the slip" story. I definitely think there was something subconscious going on there.
But, also, the Ellimist knew that Tobias needed to remain a hawk. Remember #33? The Anti-Morphing Ray, and how they got rid of it? The Animorphs absolutely needed Tobias-as-a-hawk for that mission. Any other Animorph would have been revealed by the Ray and infested. And they would not have had the prior warning that they were lucky enough to get in #49. No, this would have been a swift and sure annihilation of their resistance, quickly followed by the downfall of Earth.
They couldn't have just destroyed the Ray, either. A weapon that powerful, and that critical to the Yeerks, they would have rebuilt it. No, the Animorphs had to prove to the Yeerks that the AMR didn't work at all, that it was just another failed experiment, useless to try again. Without Tobias, the Animorphs would have been forced into hiding, unable to attack the Yeerks, for fear of being exposed to the Ray.
It's been said that the Ellimist doesn't see THE future, only possible futures. But he may have known, even then, that the Yeerks were intent upon finding some kind of forced-demorphing technology. And he may have known that the Animorphs would need a way around it. Who better than the nothlit for that role?
Actually, I even tend to think the Ellimist may have been thinking even farther ahead. The events of #33 may have been why the Ellimist was apparently so keen on Tobias being born in the first place. Nothlitism runs in the family, heh.