remove ebooks?

[goom]

i thought of an interesting idea while conversing with slushy on skype.

how about.. we make books 1 to #? immediately accessible. nothing required.
after posting an X amount of times, the user unlocks more books to read.

this would, simultaneously, get more members to post on RAF
and
minimize the issue of cutting potential profit.

donating, of course, could get you instant access to them all.

(it might backfire, of course, and cause members to spam. just throwing the idea around.)

[DinosaurNothlit]

Didn't we used to have a system sorta like that?  When I first joined RAF, I remember having to have ten posts before I could access the e-books.

I must admit, I'm still a little iffy on the whole thing, even with post requirements and members-only restrictions.  If we re-instate the post requirement, I think it should be much steeper than last time, to get more people to buy the books.  That's the ultimate goal, and I don't care what anybody else says, I WANT ANI 2.0!  Even closing the e-books to everyone except members, will still hurt sales a bit.

And you know what else?  Instead of whining that there are other sites out there that have their own e-books, and saying that we can't take ours down because they still exist elsewhere, I say we get those sites on board with us!  Maybe we can't make a difference, but maybe, if we send out enough emails explaining the situation, and that new Animorphs books are over the horizon if sales go high enough, maybe the other sites would understand the need to take their e-books down, too.  They're Animorphs fans too, after all, aren't they?  Who's with me?!

One final note.  Somebody mentioned earlier that we should wait until Scholastic forces us to take our e-books down.  I think that's probably a bad idea.  If we wait for them to act, they may not simply ask nicely for us to take the e-books down.  They may hit us with a lawsuit, and maybe even try to shut RAF down.  And the mere possibility of that terrifies me.

[goom]

completely agree. i want scholastic to be on our side for this whole thing.

let's just wait to see what happens. no point in worrying about something like this before we know more.

[anijen21]

And you know what else?  Instead of whining that there are other sites out there that have their own e-books, and saying that we can't take ours down because they still exist elsewhere, I say we get those sites on board with us!  Maybe we can't make a difference, but maybe, if we send out enough emails explaining the situation, and that new Animorphs books are over the horizon if sales go high enough, maybe the other sites would understand the need to take their e-books down, too.  They're Animorphs fans too, after all, aren't they?  Who's with me?!

I mean as noble an idea as this is, we are dealing with the *internet* where one bad apple out of billions of apples makes bad apples accessible to everyone. And some of the other ebooks or downloads or whatever that I've seen have been up for years, so long that the people who put them there might have even forgotten that they did. There's no way we're going to convince everyone. So, instead of giving hits to people that don't even remember they did it, why don't we draw people here?

One final note.  Somebody mentioned earlier that we should wait until Scholastic forces us to take our e-books down.  I think that's probably a bad idea.  If we wait for them to act, they may not simply ask nicely for us to take the e-books down.  They may hit us with a lawsuit, and maybe even try to shut RAF down.  And the mere possibility of that terrifies me.

I'm of the general opinion that any company that actively works against its consumers, even if some of those consumers break somewhat ambiguous copyright laws, doesn't have the interest of the work itself at heart. Now I'm not going to go all *FREEDOM OF INTELLIGENCE* crazy on this or anything, but I just have the feeling Scholastic isn't going to try to shut down the most popular forum of a book series it's trying to revive. That's just bad business. And as blasphemous as this is to say on a site like this, part of me believes they DESERVE to have the reprint fail if that's their choice. So, if they want us to take them down, I'm pretty sure they'll be nice about it. But, seriously, Animorphs isn't Britney Spears. I don't think anyone is going to get sued over Animorphs.

But I have been very wrong before. I just have the gut feeling that taking down the e-books is the wrong way to go about this.

[Serraph105]

The thing is, taking down the ebooks is less about avoiding spoilers, and more about encouraging people to buy the re-realease.

Like, let's say they sell them in sets of 10 or whatever. Someone buys it, and are all "Hey, this series is great! I wonder if there's any communities!"

They go online and find RAF, along with the ebooks. Suddenly, they're thinking "Well, what's the point in buying the rest if I can read it for free online?"

Then the re-release doesn't do good, and there's less chances of 2.0 coming out.

Sure, it'll still be possible to get the books for free online somewhere, but why make it easier when the sales for the re-released are going to have an influence on whether we get 2.0 or not?

yeah I hate to say it but it would really be for the best if they were taken off the site. We all want to see 2.0 get made and the ebooks would hurt its chances. I say we have an announcement saying to download them while you can because they will be taken down at such and such a date.
I must say though I love being able to carry around the entire series on my keychain as oppsed to the giant box I have had them stored in for so long now.

[wildweathel]

I guess I'll start with what I do know: lawsuits are too expensive to just drop from the sky.  C&Ds are cheap: form letter + paralegal + postage.  Lawsuits, not so much.  You have to put a complaint together, file it in court, and deliver a copy of the complaint to the person your suing.  That's at least 10x as expensive as a C&D, even before the first hearing.

Now, whether a C&D shuts down a website depends on the webhosts.  Legally, they're only required to remove infringing content.  If the webmaster says "that C&D is bogus; I'll fight it in court" they can even republish it until the court says otherwise.  Unfortunately, many hosts have a policy of shutting down entire websites for one C&D. 

(I'm not a lawyer; just a spectator to some entertainingly scrappy IP fights.)

On the moral side, I believe that fans and publishers should reasonably cooperate.  Cutting into Scholastics market is both unkind and stupid.  Animorphs still falls into the 15-year window where I believe publishers deserve protection from competition, so if it were my decision, I would take the e-books offline now.  I'm also looking to hand over my responsibility in the audiobook project--I won't compete.  They've said they're returning to market, and we should respect that.

Now, that 15-year principle leaves me a bit conflicted, since it expires in June of 2011 for The Invasion and starts progressing through the series at a rate of about 10-12 volumes per year.  Ideally, I'd like to see Scholastic at least publish new editions, and of course I'm very excited about a continuation.  I'd have a lot harder time respecting them if they just try to sell the exact same product they did 15+ years ago.

[Dameg]

(I didn't read everything but)
If you want we restrict the download of the ebooks, I have an idea... with it, the people who wanna download will have to buy or at least to have the book close to them if they want to download :p
We can add passwords to download them... and why not a password took in the book? For example, to download the volume #3, you'd have to put the word number X page/chapter Y... and of course, different passwords for each book, so you really HAVE to have the book near you to check
Or if you want an easier way, a password for all the books we give only to some people, like the old members... people who already had the books before the 2.0...

[anijen21]

Now, that 15-year principle leaves me a bit conflicted, since it expires in June of 2011 for The Invasion and starts progressing through the series at a rate of about 10-12 volumes per year.  Ideally, I'd like to see Scholastic at least publish new editions, and of course I'm very excited about a continuation.  I'd have a lot harder time respecting them if they just try to sell the exact same product they did 15+ years ago.

Is this 15-year principle just self-imposed? Because copyrights do eventually run out, like with art there is a point where it's legal to use the image without paying a fee to the artist, but it's like 60 or 80 years or something crazy. And yeah, I really have a feeling Scholastic is updating the books since they're taking over 2 years to do so, which kind of makes arguing about whether people could just steal the e-books moot anyway.

Or if you want an easier way, a password for all the books we give only to some people, like the old members... people who already had the books before the 2.0...

Then you're just discriminating against kids who didn't know about/weren't old enough to join the old forum, and that's unfair.

The fact of the matter is, we're discussing a very small portion of the population who would rather cheat and download the books than buy them themselves. Most people on this forum, and most people in real life, would be honest about it. Taking down the ebooks, which are a really handy resource when you don't have a book you did buy or borrow from the library handy, seems like an overreaction based on fear rather than reason. It may be the right decision, but I just want us to act out of rationality instead of anxiety.

[Dameg]

Many people simply don't like to read on computer ^^'
But I was answering to the people who wanted us to delete the ebooks or restrict the downloads...
I'll tell you the truth: I like to "cheat" for some stuff, I even have a shirt to prove it ^^' I like what is free, I can't pay for everything but I try and I do when I can. Just, in my mind, to delete the Ebooks would be like a crime against liberty lol So I wanna keep them, even if the 2.0 appear, I gonna keep them even if Richard delete them from RAF (they'll be on my website instead). I think that the better thing would be a password that people can find if they buy or rent the real books, the old ones or the new ones. That wouldn't be unfair, 'coz both old and new members would need them, but they could rent them in a library.
I just said the other solution as a easier one, even if discriminating, but who don't make us to delete totally the ebooks.

[wildweathel]

Is this 15-year principle just self-imposed? Because copyrights do eventually run out, like with art there is a point where it's legal to use the image without paying a fee to the artist, but it's like 60 or 80 years or something crazy.

Historical and scientific reasoning.  The first US copyright law had a 14-year maximum.  It has been extended primarily due to the lobbying efforts of large publishers.  The optimal copyright term can be estimated using some moderately-complex economics and comes out to about 15 years as well. http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2007/07/research-optimal-copyright-term-is-14-years.ars

Supposedly, copyright term is limited.  However, that limit is currently 70 years from the death of the author for a real person and 120 years for a corporate author.  Additionally, the US Supreme court has ruled that while an unlimited term is unconstitutional, there is no limit on how far Congress may extend the terms of existing copyrights.  (Eldred v Ashcroft)  Whenever the copyright on "Steamboat Willy" is about to run out, Disney spends chump change lobbying Congress and gets an extension for everyone.  Watch for the exact same thing to happen around 2018 or so...

Compare that to national secrets, typically released after 25 years, and patents which last for 20 years.

[ThinkAgain]

I don't know. I agree with Dameg - even if I liked the series, but I saw the ebooks up for free, I would read the ebooks instead of buying the real ones.
Ebooks would/will surely hurt the sales of the the re-released books.

The question is, would ours actually matter? I am almost positive that other Animorphs forum has a set of ebooks, but I think it's limited to members, I'm not sure (even if it was, it's not hard to make an account and lurk)

Also, the website www.scribd.com (a large ebook sharing site) used to have a complete set (actually, just a re-uploaded copy of our set), but I just checked and it's no longer there. Maybe it taken down by Scholastic? It's impossible to say.

Also, it would be very, very ignorant to ignore the likelihood that there are small sites that have them up, and the nature of torrents. Most of these probably just use ours.

Either way, if you google "Animorphs ebooks", we are the first result.

[goom]

yeah, AFF has the ebooks as well.
we could ask them, when the time comes, and see how they feel about it.

however, let's not get ahead of ourselves. animorphs 2.0 is a while off.

[ThinkAgain]

yeah, AFF has the ebooks as well.
we could ask them, when the time comes, and see how they feel about it.

however, let's not get ahead of ourselves. animorphs 2.0 is a while off.

Agreed.

After all, the people we want to buy the books - new people who have never heard of the series - aren't yet aware of Animorphs or Animorphs 2.0. Actually, I'm pretty sure only us, and maybe a couple other die-hard fan sites are even aware of 2.0 to begin with.

[anijen21]

Historical and scientific reasoning.  The first US copyright law had a 14-year maximum.  It has been extended primarily due to the lobbying efforts of large publishers.  The optimal copyright term can be estimated using some moderately-complex economics and comes out to about 15 years as well. http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2007/07/research-optimal-copyright-term-is-14-years.ars

Supposedly, copyright term is limited.  However, that limit is currently 70 years from the death of the author for a real person and 120 years for a corporate author.  Additionally, the US Supreme court has ruled that while an unlimited term is unconstitutional, there is no limit on how far Congress may extend the terms of existing copyrights.  (Eldred v Ashcroft)  Whenever the copyright on "Steamboat Willy" is about to run out, Disney spends chump change lobbying Congress and gets an extension for everyone.  Watch for the exact same thing to happen around 2018 or so...

Compare that to national secrets, typically released after 25 years, and patents which last for 20 years.

lol clearly you know more about this than me, so kudos. It is a powerful economic incentive to create stuff, but you're right, when it gets abused just so mom and pop bakeries can't put Mickey Mouse on a birthday cake without paying royalties to Disney, then it's out of control.

[goom]

sidenote: we mustn't forget, taking down the ebooks would also reduce members on RAF.
if AFF had ebooks and we didn't, i'm sure the majority of the new fans would head there.
not exactly as planned.