Author Topic: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change  (Read 2674 times)

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Offline RYTX

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Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« on: January 28, 2012, 01:10:18 PM »
Synopsis
Be afraid...
Tobias is ending in places he doesn't want to be. Places he can't be. And it's no accident; somebody's behind this. Now the Animorphs are helping a pair of Hork-Bajir in a desperate bid for freedom, something the Yeerks cannot allow. There's a good chance everyone will wind up dead, but if they don't Tobias may have the chance to be a human again. And he'll have to decide what that means to his place in the Animorphs....

Questions
   1. Two Hork-Bajir are freed: a male and female already with child: the first born in generations. This is also are first look at Hork-Bajir as individuals rather than Yeerk slaves. How did you like Jara and Ket? These are the first of what will be a colony: how important are the free Hork-Bajir to the story, the fight against the Yeerks, and to you personally?

   2. Though it's already been stated that many would choose death over being a controller, there is a simple elegance to Hork-Bajir mantra "Free or dead." What do you think of this idea? Is there ever a situation where life without freedom is preferable to being to dead, or is death a release from the horrors of slavery, particularly the slavery the Yeerks inflict?

   3. What did you think of the Animorphs role, especially Tobias, in the first liberation of the Hork-Bajir? What about the Ellimist's hand in seeing to their involvement?

   4. For the first time in a long time, Tobias can morph again. How does this affect his position in team? Does being able to morph enhance his contributions? Does he make good use of the ability?

   5. We don't get a direct answer when the Ellimist asks "And are you happy Tobias". Do you think he is?

   6. Not technically an animal, that makes it all the more fun to guess. In this book Tobias morphs a walking Salad Shooter, better known as a Hork-Bajir. What do you think of this race? What aspects of its life are you most interested in, what about the creature do you like, or think are poorly done? Was it surprising that when using this sentient species, Rachel and Jara both gave in to a display of male dominance? What does it say that with limited experience in this body, Rachel and Tobias are able to defeat multiple, trained, Hork-Bajir warriors?

   7. The big question's the same but the context is different: What would you do if you were in Tobias's place? Would you remain the body of a bird and continue the fight, or resume life as a human ending your role as an Animorph? How important is the quality of the life you lead as a human in making this choice?

   8. Approximately when is the last time you read this book? What changes do you expect or would like to see in a re-release?

   9. Anything else?

Answer, ignore and submit your own questions and comments as you please; but remember to vote!

Next week: The Andalite Chronicles
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Offline yunyun

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 06:00:38 PM »
1. I found them really really cute. They act like 5 year olds, which make me think of them as 5 year olds
2. I found that odd, since I really don't think yeerk control is as bad as they make it seem. It is horrible to be controlled by someone else, and that thing controlling you making you do things you don't like, but you're still alive at least. There's still hope
4. It makes him more important i guess. And makes him able to do more things
5...I'll answer this when I remember where this was from...
7. I'd continue to fight. Trapped as human would just seem so lame and useless after being a hawk
8. I think I read this like...last year? I need to re read it. There's not many changes I'm hoping to see though
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Offline Ember Nickel

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 05:56:01 PM »
I'd almost forgotten "I hate you, you hate me, we're an alien family." That was one of the most memorable lines from the first go-round.

Offline AllyVP

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 08:16:39 PM »
   1. Two Hork-Bajir are freed: a male and female already with child: the first born in generations. This is also are first look at Hork-Bajir as individuals rather than Yeerk slaves. How did you like Jara and Ket? These are the first of what will be a colony: how important are the free Hork-Bajir to the story, the fight against the Yeerks, and to you personally?

Starting in this book, the Hork-Bajir are seen in a totally different light.  In previous books, when the story was introduced, the Hork-Bajir were described as aliens whom Elfangor told the Animorphs were gentle, but the Animorphs didn’t believe them.  The introduction of Jara and Ket changed our whole view on the Hork-Bajir.  Before this, we knew  that the Hork-Bajir were not the enemy, but now the idea that the Hork-bajir are just as much victims as humans are (if not more) is a reality.

   2. Though it's already been stated that many would choose death over being a controller, there is a simple elegance to Hork-Bajir mantra "Free or dead." What do you think of this idea? Is there ever a situation where life without freedom is preferable to being to dead, or is death a release from the horrors of slavery, particularly the slavery the Yeerks inflict?

It’s hard to say definitively, because we don’t know what we will face in the future.  However, in this reality, where death or life as a Controller is the choice, I’d rather die.  I can’t say that I’d commit suicide, because I believe that if I’m not dead yet, there’s still a task for me in this world.
As for being a Controller being not that bad, let’s think about this for a moment. You spend your entire life as the Yeerk’s personal Gumby doll (if you don’t know what I mean, look it up and know that you missed the greatest decade ever).  Every three days your body is your own for an hour or so, but you spend that in a cage, in a hole in the ground, surrounded by brutal slavery and gruesome deaths.  Then you go back to the real world and watch for three days while the Yeerk plays you, and no one notices.  Maybe the Yeerk is getting better grades than you did, and suddenly your parents are so proud of him.  Maybe he’s right, maybe he’s a better “you” than you were.  You cry and beg every day, and every day he threatens to take your family, your friends.  He tortures you, but he does it with your own memories, and thoughts.  He is your only companion, and his torture is your only conversation.  Those self-destructive thoughts that you keep hidden away from everyone you know?  He brings them up every day.  Those nagging self-doubts that you deny the existence of, he knows and he reminds you every day of the truth of them.  And after hearing this enough, you believe him.
But it gets worse.  Because eventually, they take someone you love.  Now they know, and it’s almost a relief, but then you remember that they are screaming in the back of their mind, just like you are.  All that is left of the both of you is a group of electrical impulses, firing in a lonely corner of your brain.
Then your loved one’s Yeerk makes a small mistake.  He weeps and begs, but the Visser morphs a horrific monster and pulls them apart, joint by joint, and feeds the pieces to the Taxxons.  Not the Yeerk, who actually made the mistake, but the person you love.  The Visser does this because he loves seeing the expressions of pain, and there are so many bodies, why does this one matter?  You want to mourn them, you want to release your grief through tears and loud sobs, but you can’t because even your tear ducts are not your own.  And the Yeerk laughs at your pain, and he replays images of that person every day, to torture you. 
Just when you think it can’t get any worse, suddenly you realize that the Yeerks have taken everyone you know, and there are way more bodies than they need.  So they kill a five-sixths of the entire world’s population, and imprison the rest while they build pools and breed Yeerks to inhabit the bodies.  Five billion lives, simply destroyed.  The Apocalypse really has come. 
And in the meantime, they’re destroying this beautiful planet that we call Earth.  Thousands upon thousands of species of animals and plants, burned for the pure joy of destruction.  And you can’t do anything, you can’t even mourn, because there’s a Dracon beam in your hand, pointed at the very last of your favorite anima, and your finger is pulling the trigger.  So you imagine that the animal is his slimy gray body, and he is writing in pain as the Dracon beam pulls his body apart, atom by atom.

That is why the Animorphs fought.  The mental torture would have been bad enough, but added to everything else, and I would rather die a dozen deaths before being infested. 

   3. What did you think of the Animorphs role, especially Tobias, in the first liberation of the Hork-Bajir? What about the Ellimist's hand in seeing to their involvement?

Well, for one thing, the Ellimist is totally breaking the rules in his game with Crayak.  And what about it? Who else was going to help?

   4. For the first time in a long time, Tobias can morph again. How does this affect his position in team? Does being able to morph enhance his contributions? Does he make good use of the ability?

He’s a lot more useful.  Now, he can be on patrol all day, but he can also go on missions.  He is a little limited because he has to be a hawk to acquire animals, but he does pretty well. 

   5. We don't get a direct answer when the Ellimist asks "And are you happy Tobias". Do you think he is?

I think a yes or no answer is far too simple. 

   6. Not technically an animal, that makes it all the more fun to guess. In this book Tobias morphs a walking Salad Shooter, better known as a Hork-Bajir. What do you think of this race? What aspects of its life are you most interested in, what about the creature do you like, or think are poorly done? Was it surprising that when using this sentient species, Rachel and Jara both gave in to a display of male dominance? What does it say that with limited experience in this body, Rachel and Tobias are able to defeat multiple, trained, Hork-Bajir warriors?

I think the Hork-Bajir are very interesting and very well done.  I love the contrast of their appearance and nature.  And the seer is a brilliant addition (although genetically impossible, but we’ll forgive that).  One of my favorite quotes is Dek’s, in HBC.  The incredible innocence of the Hork-Bajir is wonderful.  Not only did they not use their blades as weapons, but it didn’t even occur to them. 
I find the “stupid” characteristic rather odd.  Would you call a five year old stupid?  No, it’s just their nature to not have grasped some things yet.  In fact, I am often amazed by how perceptive a lot of five year olds can be.  They are smart, and so is Jara.  A stupid creature, come up with the line “Yeerk kill Andalite.  Andalite kill Yeerk.  Hork-Bajir die.”  I don’t think so.

   7. The big question's the same but the context is different: What would you do if you were in Tobias's place? Would you remain the body of a bird and continue the fight, or resume life as a human ending your role as an Animorph? How important is the quality of the life you lead as a human in making this choice?

Psychologists say that a person will never know if they are capable of taking another person’s life unless they are directly faced with that choice.  I think the same goes for here.  We’d never know.  And I have a pretty good life.   So if it was my own life, probably not.  But if the other option was a home life like Tobias had, I might. 
Finally, people cared about him.  They would mourn if he disappeared, and look for him (his aunt and uncle did not).   Yes, it comes with some really high stakes and a lot of stress, but he matters.  And that is really all Tobias has ever wanted.

   8. Approximately when is the last time you read this book? What changes do you expect or would like to see in a re-release?

Re read it to do this.

Offline Ember Nickel

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 10:59:31 PM »
Would you call a five year old stupid?  No, it’s just their nature to not have grasped some things yet.  In fact, I am often amazed by how perceptive a lot of five year olds can be.  They are smart, and so is Jara.  A stupid creature, come up with the line “Yeerk kill Andalite.  Andalite kill Yeerk.  Hork-Bajir die.”  I don’t think so.
But with five-year-olds, it's yet. We know that (well, most) five-year-olds are going to become more knowledgeable than they are at age five. And about Jara's line, I think the author means it to sound "deep" and we're reading layers of meaning into it, but that doesn't mean he intends it as something profound, just a generalization of life for him.

Offline Liberal Tobias

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 03:13:42 AM »
But DOES Tobias make the choice between human and no morphing and hawk and morphing? I don't think so. If Tobias would have been happiest to be restored to human, I'm sure the Ellimist would have accommodated and kept Tobias in the fight, seeing as the Ellimist had quite a bit invested in him. I think the other Animorphs sort of view it that way because the notion of being a nothlit implies being trapped. While being trapped as a hawk might not have been ideal for Tobias, being human would make him more miserable (he'd be without wings, and subjected to his uncaring uncle), subject him to a lot of suspicion from controllers like Chapman, and drive him away from Ax, whom he's becoming shorms with. Tobias didn't have to be a hawk to continue the fight, he wanted to continue the fight as a hawk.

Offline Liberal Tobias

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 03:22:54 AM »
Would you call a five year old stupid?  No, it’s just their nature to not have grasped some things yet.  In fact, I am often amazed by how perceptive a lot of five year olds can be.  They are smart, and so is Jara.  A stupid creature, come up with the line “Yeerk kill Andalite.  Andalite kill Yeerk.  Hork-Bajir die.”  I don’t think so.
But with five-year-olds, it's yet. We know that (well, most) five-year-olds are going to become more knowledgeable than they are at age five. And about Jara's line, I think the author means it to sound "deep" and we're reading layers of meaning into it, but that doesn't mean he intends it as something profound, just a generalization of life for him.

Hmmm... There's no denying that a Hork-Bajir is intellectually capped, but at the same time, sometimes stripping away the complex, and really getting down to the core of the matter is the most wise thing you can do. "Yeerk kill Andalite. Andalite kill Yeerk. Hork-Bajir die." is a really basic concept. But you could discuss the ethics of fighting a war against Yeerks for hours, and the basic elements remain the most important fact: No matter what, Hork-Bajir are innocents caught in the middle. Do we need that much more?

Offline Ember Nickel

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 03:01:22 PM »
Not necessarily. But I don't think they're getting to the heart of the matter because it's the wisest thing that anyone could do, they're getting to the heart of the matter because that's the only thing they can do.

Offline RYTX

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Re: Group-Reread 2.0 #13 The Change
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2012, 09:44:02 PM »
   1. I'm not one for "aww", but they draw it out of me, especially Jara. Stand up guy/alien right there. Though perhaps not in terms of physical damage, this is one of the biggest victories in the series. It's a huge morale changer on each side, and the Hork-Bajir weren't without there use: small but still nipping at the Yeerks. Great for the story, great for the reader.

   2. I'm sure any slavery is unpleasant, but man, I do not want to die. Ever. I've made my case before; as bad as it is, nothing in life is total or permanent, unlike death. I'd rather be miserable with a faint hope than dead and dead.

   3. Oh that Ellimist. This is one of the few things he did that I can't deny his part in, nor do I wish too. Right up his ally in cause and method: small change, large yield-but I admit in saying that, I'm thinking it's more acceptable to treat HB as game pieces than humans. Eh. Using Tobias did irk me some, but I'm glad it was him. Really added a new dimension having him be savior of the renegades. He did do well.

   4. Not much, and again I blame him. Should have picked up Andalite earlier, should have used something other than hawk in a fight more, etc. It enables him to go along more, which is good (if only to stop his complaining about that), but it seems less monumental than it should have been.

   5. No. Because I don't think he's ever happy. He wanted it all, but this is what he wanted most: the freedom and fight of an Animorph, but the glimpse of humanity the morph provides.

   6. The descriptions don't compute with the drawings perfectly in my mind, and the anatomical arrangement seems physically damning-moving that body through the trees. They do come off rather charming though, would have loved to see more of their mythology, and how they entertain themselves: Hork-Bajir Olympics=bad ass? The dominance thing annoyed me: back to that behavior vs instinct in sentients, which I'm not up to thinking off. And it really caught me this time, that they beat real Hork-Bajir so quickly, even with their experience of using different forms. Like gaming: someone who plays XBox and PlayStation and Ninetendo could probably pick up on Sega pretty quick sure, you you don't expect him to beat the guy who's been Street Fighter since 95 right away

   7. This time I think I'd stay with the bird. Quality of live is fairly important, and mine is pretty good, but at this point I'd probably be invested in the fight enough to not bail (though this would be the time wouldn't it), and really, I can't see deliberately surrendering the power to morph, for just about any reason. Right next to not dying on list of things I want.
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