Group Re-read 2.0 #8 The Alien

[RYTX]

Synopsis
He's only human. When he wants to be...
Aximili-Esgarrouth-Isthill is alone. The younger brother of Andalite hero, he is all that is left of the Andalite military on Earth, fighting the Yeerks alongside the humans known as Animorphs. But Ax is carrying a lot on his shoulders: the secrets of his people, the honor of his family, the burden of revenge. With the war on Earth become ever more volatile, Ax has to choose where his loyalties lie, and what he can do to help the Animorphs, stop the Yeerks, and carry out his vengeance by killing Visser Three...

Questions
   1. In this book we learn of Seerow's Kindness, and the origin of the Yeerk menace. Thoughts? Part of the law forbids explaining why the law exists. Do you think it is right the Andalite's try to hide this information from the galaxy to protect their honor, to hide their shame?

   2. For the first time we come in contact with the Andalite military. What did you think of the information and orders they gave to Ax? What did you think of them preserving Elfangor's image, at the cost of his younger brother's?

   3. Z-space is talked about and utilized rather heavily in this book. What do you think in general of alien technology in the series? How much to think, or what do you particularly hope, is really doable? Ax is under the impression humans advance very quickly; how long do you think it will be before we can match the science of Animorphs?

   4. Ax has multiple clearly defined role in the group: he can provide information on advanced technologies and alien abilities, pilot spacecraft, and serves as the the Animorphs mouth-piece to both Yeerks and Andalites. What do you think of these and other contributions Ax makes? How well would do you think  the Animorphs would have fared if have hadn't joined the team?

   5. In addition to being the resident expert on all things alien, Ax provides an outsiders' view of the human race. What do you think of his thoughts? Are humans by nature adaptable, bold and loyal- or does he just happen to be working with a stellar group of kids?

   6. On that note, what did you think of the Earth Dairy of Aximili-Esgarrouth-Isthill?

   7. 4 out of 6 Animorphs are in a romantic relation with another Animorph, and all of them have their best friend in the group. But beyond those intimate and close relationships, the Animorphs are a team, and each member has some relation to everyone else.  In this book Ax and Cassie share some personal time. What do you think of their interactions, particularly in  this book where many of the Animorphs are getting weary of Ax? What do you think of their relation as the series progresses?

   8. We get a first look at Yeerk personal relations in this book. What did you think about Eslin's grief over the loss of his companion? What in general do you think about Yeerk love? What about Yeerk hate? What did you think about Eslin being the ruin of the Yeerk's emergency efforts, which cost both human and Yeerk lives, as a form of revenge?

   9. This book has a good amount of time with Ax as a human. We all know what it's like to be human. So consider: What are human instincts? How strong are they in our lives, and how does that compare to non-human animals? Thinking about it from the outsider's perspective, how is human instinct different from human behavior?

   10. When Ax is getting ready to take on Visser Three, Tobias seems questioning of his "assassination" plot. Is Tobias's skepticism understandable? Is a covert assassination more or less moral than killing an opponent in open combat?

   11. What would you do in Ax's place? Would you lie to your comrades to protect the laws of your people, or break those laws in hopes of foraging trust? How about how he dealt with Visser Three: If someone you loved had been killed by another, would you take up the burden of vengeance?

   12. Approximately when is the last time you read this book? What changes do you expect or would like to see in a re-release?

   13. Anything else?

Answer, ignore and submit your own questions and comments as you please; but remember to vote!

Next week: #9 The Secret

[yunyun]

I ll edit this more later

1.I find its odd they try to hide it. Every one makes mistakes. So what? Its normal.
2. Well, I think it's okay...it probably does help andalites look up to him and see him as a role model to help them work better but it's also sorta wrong considering he's getting blamed for something he didn't do.
3. The animorphs would have failed in like 8 or so books if Ax haven't join. Ax is like one of the most helpful ones there, being the only one to have 'studied' about Yeerks and knew about them for a while.

[Noelle]

I'll probably edit and add more later.  This is one of my favorite books in the series.


1. I think a big part of the reason they hide it is shame.  That is a HUGE thing to have on your shoulders as a race; the knowledge that you started a huge intergalactic war that has caused death in the millions.  Despite this fact, I think they are right to hide this, ONLY because it would help them ally with other races better.  Personally, I find in the book where he told them and the animorphs were like "oh, no big.  It was just a mistake," to be really unrealistic.  Maybe it makes me less of a person, but if I was an Animorph, I would have been like "well you son-of-a...so you're the reason why I'm spending a big majority of my life screaming and crying and trying to save the world?" Well, maybe not, I probably wouldn't hate Ax as an individual, but I'd definitely would have decided I didn't like the Andalites as a whole at that point.

 The Andalites need to stop the Yeerks, and they aren't going to be able to do it if they have a bunch of races angry at them and unwilling to work with them, and they already kind of have a rap for being rather difficult to work with. (At least from the perspective of the Yeerks, I guess we don't really see what other races think of them, but them doing stuff like acting like cops to people like the Skirt Na in TAC I can see them having a nearly universal reputation for meddling and putting their nose where it doesn't belong.)


2. Like I said in another post, this makes my top ten saddest moments in animorphs billboard.  I think it was terrible that they did that, and, like number one, it really would make me question the Andalites as a whole.  Elfangor is dead and gone.  There's no reason to ruin his little brother's name and future over it.  Honestly, their reasoning didn't sit well with me.  What I THINK would make more sense is if they pinned it on Ax so people wouldn't be like "well, Elfangor did it, and Elfangor is awesome, sooooo...I'll trade you this technology for a box of chocolate, sound good?"

Whatever their reason was, it really was just sad, I can't imagine how terrifying it would be for Ax at that moment.  To realize that your own people basically told you to ruin your future for your dead brother, which I view basically as emotional manipulation because he was probably still all tore up over Elfangor dying.  (Oh, and being marooned on a planet alone.)  And they didn't even offer him a ride home!  And to realize that when you finally, if ever, made it home, you were going to have to explain for yourself when you never did anything, that's just a nightmare.

[spoiler]Honestly, just due to that fact alone, I was 100% surprised at the end that Ax didn't decide to stay with the humans after the war.  And that's without all the other crap that happened at the end.  I'm pretty sure if my race told me to do that, and I had as passionate a love affair with food as he did, I would have been like 'screw you guys, I'm staying here and becoming a millionaire ACTUALLY breaking Seerow's kindness while I nom everything in sight.'  [/spoiler]

3. Eh, I never really thought about it.  I have no idea.  When it comes to space technology, 100 years maybe?  When it comes to morphing technology...never?  At least not how it's portrayed in this book.  I would think something like Avatar would be more reasonable, but even then with consciousness transfer, I'd say 500 years probably.

4. I personally think the Animorphs would have failed miserably if he wasn't a part of the team.  His knowledge was invaluable and just plain made missions possible in several books.

5. I think his outsider thoughts and perspective on humans is what makes him my favorite character.  Not only is it just amusing, its really thought provoking for a kids novel.  I think that, as a general overarching idea, humans being bold, loyal, and adaptable is correct.  The human race would not have even survived without these traits.

6. Hilarious and thought-provoking.  I'm really sad this wasn't a trend that continued through the series. 

7. I think Cassie was just being nice and understanding, just being Cassie before Cassie got annoying and holier-than-thou.  I don't think it ever went past friends or had the potential to go past friends with Cassie, if that's what you mean.  I think his relations with Cassie were realistic, he got annoyed with her when she wasn't willing to do what it took to win just like everyone else.  Relationship-wise, he was kind of standoffish with everyone except Tobias in the rest of the series, which makes sense.

[spoiler]Though, I do think that in the end of the series, when he forgave her and decided he didn't hate her when he found out she gave away the cube wasn't really realistic.  He had no special relationship with her, and she basically violated every single code and moral he ever stood for.  I think it was very powerful when he said Cassie abused Elfangor in giving the Yeerks morphing technology, and spot on.  I don't know how he can go from that to "oh, its ok, I still like her."  But, then again, my opinion is that there are very few things that are realistic when it comes to Cassie's character and the interactions of the other characters with her.  [/spoiler]

8. I will admit, Yeerk romantic/ultra-friendly relationships was just something I could never really wrap my head around in the novels.  You have thousands of brothers and sisters, and based on that I can see why they would be so willing to stoop to terrible levels to top everyone else.  The competition is way high and when you get thousands of babies from only three yeerks, expendable is probably the understatement of the year, especially when host bodies are scarce.  I guess in HBC they showed Yeerks talking together in the Yeerk pool, I guess if you have the ability to converse you could have the ability to form friendships...

Romance as a Yeerk...I really don't get it.  From a biological standpoint, the point of forming a romantic relationship stems from the desire to create children, and non-romantic love stems from the desire to protect and nuture your family and community.  I can see cross-species relationships forming easily, such as human-andalite or Hork-Bajir-Andalite because they have similar biological needs and emotions, so a bridge can be made.  Yeerks don't have that, the parents die upon reproducing.  Where did they pick it up from?  The ONLY thing I can think of them even possibly being able to fathom that kind of love is picking it up from their host, which I think it would be almost impossible to do without them getting it warped and twisted, which would lead one to take ridiculous forms of revenge like killing a ton of your own people and innocents over losing someone you learned to care about.

9. I'll save this for later.

10. I always read it as Tobias was scared Ax was going to die, but I will re-read it.  To me, whenever you're contemplating the death of an enemy, it doesn't matter how (unless you do something terrible like torture, which is wrong.) you kill them, its whether or not they deserved it.  He deserved it, and assassination was the cleanest way to go without putting people in harms way.  I see no foul.  In that way, I personally think covert assassination is MORE moral than open combat.  If the person deserves to die, then why waste the lives of others and put them in danger when you can just do it quickly and efficiently with little risk?

11. I definitely would have lived by the rules of my people while helping them as much as I could.  Ax was planning on going home.  He would have had to answer for what he did, it was understandable.  I think after my people told me to ruin my life for my dead family member, I would have pretty much ditched them and then done everything I could to incorporate myself into human culture, including breaking laws to gain trust with them.

As for vengeance, I definitely would, though I would never kill someone in a non-combat or a non-self defense situation, though I would definitely seek legal vengeance.  In Ax's situation, where the target was a military target anyway, I definitely would have done everything I could to kill him.

[spoiler]Which is what PISSES ME OFF SO BAD about the last book.  I can't  believe they let Visser 1 live...seriously.  Ax and Elfangor deserved their vengeance.  It was terribly disappointing that they decided keeping him in a box was worse than death, even though it was Elfangor who said "but without life there is no hope."  Seriously, KAA, what the hell?[/spoiler]

12. I read it probably like a month ago, but I've read this book numerous times.  I've had to replace my copy once because I've read it so much the book basically got shredded.  I have ONE request and ONE request only for this book:

Please please PLEASE give Ax a non-fugly Andalite form.  Elfangor's was awesome, Visser's was awesome, and Aldrea's was awesome.  Ax was ugly and weird looking for the whole series, WTH?  And he doesn't even fit their own description in the book?  He looks like he's on freaking steroids and they talk about how wimpy the Andalite upper body is.  They talk about how huge his emerald, almond-shaped green eyes *insert more diabetic dialogue here* are, and on the cover they are beady at best.  I mean, come on, I've seen tons of fan art that did him better justice than the people who were getting PAID to draw him.  Honestly, I thought the picture of him on this cover was better than the rest, and even that was terrible.

So yeah, DE-FUGLIFY AX!  And if they don't...I'll go on a serious rampage.  I'll never shut up about it.  I'll be banned on this board for spamming the re-release thread with WTFWTFWTFWTFWTF!!!!!!

That said, I just can't wait until they release the cover art for it.  I check Hirac Delest every day.  Yes, I am a psycho.


13.  Um...



NO FUGLY ANDALITES


Edit:  I think they should hire THIS artist to do Ax's cover art.  She (or, I think it's a she?) is amazing.  I think she has defined what Andalites look like for me in my head cannon.

http://lackofa.deviantart.com/art/Elfangor-and-Aximili-194497759

[Ember Nickel]

I'll maybe tackle the questions later, these were my "really?" moments from a first re-read-through. Think I might make a habit of just these eyebrow-raisers. Full disclosure, I know The Andalite Chronicles far better than most of the series, so I judge most of the books against it.

Prologue: Why "Earth minutes" other than for the readers' sake? Clumsy.
Ugh, more sibling traditions even though they're not supposed to have lots of siblings (according to TAC)
1. Maybe I would never be the big hero Elfangor was, but I could surely become the biggest expert on humans. <- D'aww.
Any human you know might be a Controller. There is no way to tell - unless you are an Andalite. <- What is this? does this ever come up?
4. "Never in all of history has any non-Andalite been given the power to morph." <- Your history is thirty years and on Andalite scale that's nothing
5. "And I've certainly never heard of any other intelligent species trying to walk this way" On two legs. Hmm, that's interesting. And Hork-Bajir aren't intelligent.
10. In the past, Andalites made war on other Andalites. <- this is a line before the Hork-Bajir KASU but also a TAC contradiction, kind of, in the way Arbron talks to Chapman.
19. <There is a snake!> Visser Three roared. <Find it! Kill it!> <- Can he not just morph?
They'll keep this body alive, <- Then why bail out?

Edit: What are human instincts, really? Taste? Would a species that already knew how to taste be as fascinated by the human mouth as Ax is? I think Applegate is defining instincts by implicit contrast with the original species, which seems a little off.

[AllyVP]

   1. In this book we learn of Seerow's Kindness, and the origin of the Yeerk menace. Thoughts? Part of the law forbids explaining why the law exists. Do you think it is right the Andalite's try to hide this information from the galaxy to protect their honor, to hide their shame?

No.  Yeah, sucks for you, you trusted someone and they turned on you.  But lives and entire planets are at stake, and you do not have the right to hide information that could save them, even if it will save your pride. 
We do have to take into account that the Andalites thought they were the only ones with the power to stop the Yeerks.  They did not believe that telling humans the details would help them at all.  So, the law of Seerow’s Kindness was not malicious, just arrogant.   

   2. For the first time we come in contact with the Andalite military. What did you think of the information and orders they gave to Ax? What did you think of them preserving Elfangor's image, at the cost of his younger brother's?

From their point of view, it makes perfect sense.  They don’t believe the humans have much of a shot at all, and they believe that this group of children has an even lower chance.  Once you have that fact, it follows that Aximili will also fail with them.  Why tarnish the hero’s name, when you can pin it on a ready-made failure? 

   3. Z-space is talked about and utilized rather heavily in this book. What do you think in general of alien technology in the series? How much to think, or what do you particularly hope, is really doable? Ax is under the impression humans advance very quickly; how long do you think it will be before we can match the science of Animorphs?

I don’t think that we have the ability to realistically predict what will be possible or impossible in the future.  Futuristic shows and stories are nice to dream about it, but I don’t think our fantasies are anywhere close.  In the middle ages, would someone had ever even imagined that thousands of songs could fit into a device smaller than your hand?  Or that an unimaginable wealth of information could be stored and accessed in a device as big as a large book and much lighter?
I don’t think we can even dream about what will be possible in 50, 100, 200 years. 

   4. Ax has multiple clearly defined role in the group: he can provide information on advanced technologies and alien abilities, pilot spacecraft, and serves as the Animorphs mouth-piece to both Yeerks and Andalites. What do you think of these and other contributions Ax makes? How well would do you think  the Animorphs would have fared if have hadn't joined the team?

I think they would have been okay for a while, but eventually they would have gotten screwed by their own lack of knowledge.  Something as simple and obvious as the first encounter with the Gleet Bio-filter, which Ax recognized instantly. 

   5. In addition to being the resident expert on all things alien, Ax provides an outsiders' view of the human race. What do you think of his thoughts? Are humans by nature adaptable, bold and loyal- or does he just happen to be working with a stellar group of kids?

Adaptable, yes.  We’ve proven that as we have survived huge natural disasters and shifts, as well as those we created.
Bold and loyal?  I think that depends on the person, their nature, how they’ve been brought up, and a lot of other factors.  I think Earth was lucky that Elfangor ran across this group, and not a group of Davids.

   6. On that note, what did you think of the Earth Dairy of Aximili-Esgarrouth-Isthill?

I think it was a fun and interesting plot device, but on that I could take or leave.  Ax’s experiences on Earth come through effectively without it, although having them in a concentrated area like that was nice.  I can’t decide if having them concentrated and summarized like that was worth repeating them.  In later books, letting us read between the lines and letting us figure out Ax’s interpretations was almost more fun.

   7. 4 out of 6 Animorphs are in a romantic relation with another Animorph, and all of them have their best friend in the group. But beyond those intimate and close relationships, the Animorphs are a team, and each member has some relation to everyone else.  In this book Ax and Cassie share some personal time. What do you think of their interactions, particularly in  this book where many of the Animorphs are getting weary of Ax? What do you think of their relation as the series progresses?

Later, Ax notes that Cassie is actually the most dangerous to the cause, because she is willing to sacrifice security and one-time opportunities for morality.  They were never particularly close, but this was probably the closest they ever were.  One of Cassie’s greatest talents is making people feel loved, included, and valued.  She could look past  what was presently going on with Ax to see they needed him, and if they alienated him, they would be screwed. 
But, even if she wasn’t looking at it strategically (which is a safe assumption), Cassie is motherly, and Ax was sad, and she wanted to make him feel better. 

   8. We get a first look at Yeerk personal relations in this book. What did you think about Eslin's grief over the loss of his companion? What in general do you think about Yeerk love? What about Yeerk hate? What did you think about Eslin being the ruin of the Yeerk's emergency efforts, which cost both human and Yeerk lives, as a form of revenge?

From an evolutionary standpoint, Yeerk love makes no sense romantically.  Three Yeerks give their lives to spawn a vast number of new Yeerks.  But a best friend type of relationship?  There’s no reason that couldn’t happen. It is so easy to forget, in these earlier books, how real the Yeerks are.  By that, I mean that they are not the purely evil, single-minded villans that they are painted as in these first books. 

   9. This book has a good amount of time with Ax as a human. We all know what it's like to be human. So consider: What are human instincts? How strong are they in our lives, and how does that compare to non-human animals? Thinking about it from the outsider's perspective, how is human instinct different from human behavior?

We act as predators, but our ancestors were most certainly prey.  The instincts that go along with both (obviously) contraict strongly, and would be interesting for an outsider to observe.

   10. When Ax is getting ready to take on Visser Three, Tobias seems questioning of his "assassination" plot. Is Tobias's skepticism understandable? Is a covert assassination more or less moral than killing an opponent in open combat?

You know, I am always of the opinion that fights should be fair.  But when does that happen?  One side decides that they are not going to fight fair, and the other side has to cheat also, or lose.  The Animorphs are six against the entire invasion force of Yeerks.  No amount of “cheating” on their part could ever bring this fight even close to fair.  So, yes, they are perfectly within their rights to attempt a covert assassination.  Especially when you take into account how many less involuntary hosts would have had to die.   

   11. What would you do in Ax's place? Would you lie to your comrades to protect the laws of your people, or break those laws in hopes of foraging trust? How about how he dealt with Visser Three: If someone you loved had been killed by another, would you take up the burden of vengeance?

Yeah, I think I would.  But (and this might seem a little dark) I am of the opinion that your punishment should equal your crime.  So, I don’t think that the Visser should have been executed the way America does it.  I think he should have been executed in a similar fashion to those which he doled out so readily.  In combination, and drawn-out, just to make sure that he felt the pain of every single Yeerk, human, Hork-Bajir, Andalite, and any other species that I’ve forgotten, that he killed.  For the most part, I really liked the way Applegate ended the last book.  I think it was a brilliant plot device that made us think long and hard.  But, I agree with Noelle_Winters, [spoiler] the visser should NOT have been allowed to live.  [/spoiler]

   12. Approximately when is the last time you read this book? What changes do you expect or would like to see in a re-release?

Re-read it to do this. 
Yeah, but this might be a hard change.  I would like to see the timeline make more sense.  Ax talks about this war as if it has been going on for generations, and the law of Seerow’s Kindness is very old.  He talks about other planets they’ve taken and other species who have tried to fight.  But we find out in later books that it hasn’t really been going on for that long at all, and the only planet they’ve taken by force before Earth was the Hork-Bajir planet (where they did not use covert infiltration tactics).  This kind of wrinkle in the continuity bugs me, but maybe I’m just a perfectionist.

   13. Anything else?

Yep.  Alloran, in the moment when he is free (when, by the way, Ax should have killed him), tells Ax that the Yeerks are on the Andalite homeworld already.  But nothing ever comes of this.  Could Alloran have been mistaken?  I seriously doubt it.  Did Applegate forget about this storyline?  Kind of looks that way.  One interesting theory, but one that I do not think Applegate intended, is that it is one of those loose ends that is up to us to imagine the ending.  We all know that unresolved conflict was Applegate’s favorite plot device.

[RYTX]

   1. This is a solid aspect of story-telling: good intentions lead to bad things, the bad guy is the good guy's fault, can't give the little guy heaps of power: classic. Specifically I don't fault the Andalites, I don't fault Seerow, all this does is make you cautious, think Marco said that. More of that optimism I was talking about before. HOWEVER, hiding the truth about it is stupid. And dangerous. All it does is set up a tense relationship between parties, generating mistrust and discord. Bad Andalites. Very Bad

   2. Again, bad Andalites. Follow the law: fine, they're soldiers with a lot at stake, but I never liked how quickly they sold Ax down the river. Maybe it's because I'm sympathetic to Earth's cause, but they should have 1) told the people, 2) Looked into the situation here gotdammit. But this is basically the first and last time I like the Andalite military at all. Ick

   3. As described: none of it. Statistically possibly at the smallest probabilities I guess; I see a whole lot of holes in morphing tech. And I don't know why Z-space would be white. It's nothing. Why is there light? And I could go on and on with questions. Of course I hope all of it is possible in some way. Faster than light travel and communication, morphing (oh, the things I'd do for morphing). I imagine ray guns are somewhat possible, but I really hope those are held off for after my time. To easy to get shot already, don't need weapons that can go through most forms of matter.

   4. No offense to anyone else, but Ax was vital. Probably the most vital. I remain amazed that even though he was a student he could so thoroughly jack the enemy: really makes you question the war afar. The way the use him as the mouth piece and flag is a mistake, dumb luck they get away with it for all that time, but all in all he does a lot of good.

   5. Idk, I'm a cynic, but I really think he got lucky with the team. Most people are somewhat malleable sure,  but I have tedious believes in loyalty and such. Too many, self included, cut and run or blow with the wind. But of course, if that were the theme, no one would read these books, cause we all love stories about the goodness of the human spirit .(Probably cause it's missing from too much of the real world, imo).

   6. It was cute in this book, really unneeded.  It would have been no harm to continue it,  but I didn't really care that it never showed up again

   7. They get along alright. I like them in this book, probably cause this is when they were most comedic together. Cassie's pretty good at knowing his head, which is somewhat surprising, but Ax is still a teenager too I guess. They don't have a lot of ups and downs I guess, shows some concern for her in 19, and 52-after some well deserved disdain, but this is one of the most level relations throughout. But then, they may be the most level individuals. Overall at least. Kinda.

   8. I see no problems with Yeerks loving. I don't think it was a developed concept, differentiated from human love yet, but I see no reason why not-love's not just about the mating. Same with Yeerk hate. Really which we'd seen more, this was one of very few examples of personal motives other than obtaining authority. Kinda annoyed that he was critical in hurting the Yeerks, wanted the Animorphs biggest blow yet to be enough on its on, but hey, sabotage makes for good story too.

   9. Don't know. Not sure there is a difference. I've no reason to believe that we aren't as subject to are instincts as the most primitive mind. If I had to distinguish them: instinct is what we must do, behavior is what we want to do. Inside or out, I feel bad for anyone looking at either. Terrible things these humans.

   10. I don't know what Tobias was on about. It's war. Kill the guy. And don't make the guy doing it out to be shady. Even killing has it's degrees of morality, but they stem, mostly, from motive, not method. Tiny, tiny bit method, but irrelevant in this case.

   11. Some laws I'm okay with breaking. The history of Seerow is one of them, if not the technology transfer. For the vengeance thing: I don't see my self as terribly vengeful, I don't think that I'd make it an active pursuit, part of life's duty, but it the opportunity did present it seem, well I'll call that as much a gift from the cosmos as I would revenge.