Author Topic: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion  (Read 15177 times)

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Offline morfowt

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2008, 05:32:58 PM »
yeah but in #8 ax says he can't thought speak in human morph. and I could state some more examples of can and can't, but I've already said them at least 5 times so I'm not gonna do it again. Point is, whether can or can't is debatable.

NateSean

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2010, 04:41:32 PM »

Hope it's  still okay to add to this discussion.

Questions

1) When Elfangor and Visser Three interact their conversation is very impersonal. How much of their history do you think that KA had figured out at this point?

[/quote]

It's fair to say she didn't have any of it figured out as such. The first six books are chalk full of evidence to support this.

Quote
2) Elfangor's fighter is equipped with two oddities: a family picture and an Escafil Device. Why do you think Elfangor would have these items on a fighter? Especially the Escafil Device - as a fighter pilot, it seems odd that Elfangor would have the added responsibility of guarding a piece of Andalite technology as he rides into battle.

The picture isn't such an oddity. Soldiers bring photos of their loved ones to war all the time. Sometimes you need to know what you're fighting for and when you're alone in the middle of an enemy desert (or in Elfangor's case, an alien planet) that picture could be the difference between freaking out and staying grounded.

That said, I can't really argue the point about the Escafil device. When you've read the whole series it makes sense, but taking it as if it the rest hasn't happened yet, it's a daring breech in security.

Quote

4) How much of an 'accident' do you think Tobias getting stuck in morph was?


About as much of an accident as my hand being found in a cookie jar when my parents walk in. Of course I'll tell them it was an accident, but the evidence is on the floor, the counter, my cheeks and quite possibly in the bedroom if this was my fifth trip as it often was.

He was morphed right before going into the Yeerk Pool and who knows how long he was in morph before the others actually got there.


Quote
5) What do you think of the way KA portrays each of their personalities in this book? This is when we're introduced to the characters, and they're all still incredibly naive. What do you think about how they start out?

I think she nailed their very young personalities. Give the morphing power to any other five teenagers and the results might have been different but they would have been just as naive.

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6) Cassie is, surprisingly, the first person to agree to receive the morphing power and fight. What do you think about that?

"Cassie, do you want to morph into animals and *blah, blah, blah*". Being an animal lover and again, a naive teenager, I would be surprised if Elfangor had her with the morphing animals bit.

Offline yunyun

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 03:58:04 PM »
4)i think it wasn't too much of an accident, there was this post and someone posted a deleted chapter that said he didn't do it by accident,also in book 43,tobias' flash back to the yeerk pool
[spoiler]
Quote
An hour and fifty minutes? An hour and
fifty-five?
How long?!
The others had escaped already. The other
Animorphs, I mean. They'd dodged the visser's
fireball gauntlet. They'd slipped out to safety,
back through the janitor's closet, back into the
school. Rachel, Cassie, Marco, Jake.
Had I missed the deadline? Had I been more
than two hours in morph?
Couldn't have. Can't have. No. I'd be trapped
forever. A bird.
Independent, free, alone.
Forever.
[/spoiler]
he said "free"which makes me think he wanted it
Starfire is my RAFcousin. :D
click?

Thanks Ouroborus! ^_^

Offline Gankhruun

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2011, 06:51:44 AM »
Since I'm not really "re-reading" the series so I'm gonna answer these questions with knowledge only in book 1.


1) When Elfangor and Visser Three interact their conversation is very impersonal. How much of their history do you think that KA had figured out at this point?
I think the author would have at least planned some form of back story on the original premise for her series just to establish the basic foundations that had made Animorphs what they are now. The interaction between Elfangor and Visser was a way to showcase that. Even though it seems like what we're entitled to in terms of the history between these two are very basic, it does kick start the series of so personally I think KA had thought of some basic ideas and then developed them further while the books were being published.

2) Elfangor's fighter is equipped with two oddities: a family picture and an Escafil Device. Why do you think Elfangor would have these items on a fighter? Especially the Escafil Device - as a fighter pilot, it seems odd that Elfangor would have the added responsibility of guarding a piece of Andalite technology as he rides into battle.
Take note I've only read the first book (Not to say I haven't read the subsequent ones but it's been so long I might as well have read it for the first time.)
I think Elfangor had the family picture and the escafil device because the yeerks had probably invaded at the location of where the Escafil device was originally located and as the Prince, he had the responsibility of taking the escafil device and transporting it to another planet before the yeerks could reverse engineer it. Maybe he realised that he would have had to leave his family suddenly, especially if the yeerk invasion for the device was a surprise attack, and he had to leave quickly so he probably didn’t have a chance to say goodbye and the picture was the closest thing he had to seeing his family.
The reason why I think that he was on a fighter was so he could hide in the battle zone of when the counter-assault happened against the yeerks. It would probably be extremely noticeable if a different type of ship attempted to flee from the war or maybe he had to fight his way to escape.

3) The infamous KASU of book #1: Do you think that KA should have kept thought-speak the way it was in the first book, so that they could thought-speak even in human form? Or does it make more sense the way it ended up? If I remember correctly some of the ghostwriters have Ax and Tobias capable of thought-speaking in human morph later on in the series. What do you think about that?
I’ve no idea what the infamous KASU you’re referring to is. But I think it probably made more sense, and more interesting, if they could only thought spoke in their morphed forms because morphing was a technology given to them so they could only use the abilities when they morphed. I’m probably guessing but the Andalites probably thought spoke as their primary language and it was natural to have it in the escafil device when they were in a morph.

4) How much of an 'accident' do you think Tobias getting stuck in morph was?
From what I’ve gathered I think Tobias was being careless on purpose about the limitations and side effects of the morphing ability. He was aware of what would happen to him if he stayed in a morph longer than 2 hours but I think in the end he chose to live a life as a hawk because his life as a human was so terrible. His life as a human probably felt very oppressive and restrictive such as the bullies picking on him and not having a proper family to nurture him. Being a hawk was about freedom and doing whatever he want without anyone telling him what to do or suffer any consequences for it. So the answer is yes and no. Tobias knew about the limit but didn’t try very hard to avoid it.

5) What do you think of the way KA portrays each of their personalities in this book? This is when we're introduced to the characters, and they're all still incredibly naive. What do you think about how they start out?
I think they’re all very diverse with some parts overlapping each other’s personalities. I think that KA made it deliberate that the each group’s personalities were different so that the person reading the story would always find a character they could relate too. I think they turned out quite well because each member of the animorphs group had a strength and when they were together they supported each other’s weaknesses.

6) Cassie is, surprisingly, the first person to agree to receive the morphing power and fight. What do you think about that?
I think it’s very fitting of her. In the book we’re exposed to her love for animals. She takes care of them in a clinic and helps her parents, who are veterinarians; take care of the animals in the zoo as well so it seemed only natural for her to jump at the chance to be animals and discover what it was like. She’s probably fulfilling her dream of what it would be like.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:53:29 AM by Gankhruun »

Offline Zero_Messiah

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2011, 06:22:43 PM »
I don't think Elfangor's ship was your typical one-two person fighter. Elfangor was a War Prince, and his rank certainly allows him to have his own ship, much larger than the standard fighter. A good example was how Alloran had his own personal warship, the Jafar, in Andalite Chronicles. It would have served as both a mobile home, as well as a war ship.

As Jake described in the original book, "There was no chair, just sort of an open space where I guess the Andalite stood on his four hooves while he worked on the controls."

Likewise, the Jafar was a ship that could be run by Alloran alone, though it also allowed him to hold a crew of at least three andalites and two humans. That would explain why Elfangor was the only one in his ship. As an Andalite War Prince, I suppose he would have access to technology for him to use as he deemed fit, without breaking the rules of Seerow's Kindness. An example would be how Aximili, upon his immediate promotion to Prince, was also given control of four Escafil Devices. (though whether the extra devices were due to his rank, his achievements in essentially stopping the Yeerk invasion, or for ease of spreading the morphing power to the promised Taxxons/Yeerks is up to debate)

Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2011, 09:29:10 PM »
You do have to ponder on the practical reasons for why an Andalite Prince would carry an Escafil device, his people's most precious weapon, into war. Wouldn't their personnel be charged with the technology in the Homeworld? Why else would Princes use it in the field?!
With Seerow's Kindness being such a huge deal, what counter measures could the Andalite military have had in place to address all the different scenarios of it falling in the hands of the enemy during field missions? It couldn't have been as simple as any person being able to walk into the ship and plucking the Cube from the navigational station.

Offline Dogman15

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2011, 12:03:14 AM »

Offline Zero_Messiah

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2011, 04:12:23 PM »
Yes, Jahar, I just wanted it Jafar because of Aladdin.

As for the practicality of Elfangor bringing crucial military tech to the field, there are two possible reasons.

The first, being that he had brought it down with him without anyone knowing. Someone of his rank and status would have access to the technology; while that means he could possess it, it doesn't mean the andalites would have condoned him taking technology down to their battlefield. But even if they obviously didn't allow Elfangor to bring that piece of andalite technology down; who's to say that elfangor told anyone he had it? Last I recalled, The Andalites were being ambushed by a pool ship and the blade ship, had disengaged the dome, Elfangor had run out the moment they confirmed Yeerk presence on Earth. I don't think anyone would have noticed if Elfangor took something he had access to down to the surface; everyone would have been busy trying to stay alive. It wasn't as if an Aristh, completely without access to the device, had broken in, grabbed it, and then mainlined for Earth; Elfangor's rank and clearance would have let him take one without trouble and no alarm would have been triggered, allowing the other andalites to focus on not getting killed.

The second reason? Elfangor knew that he had a part in what was to come, and he knew that he would have to bring the Escafil Device with him. Prior to being returned as an Andalite, The Ellimist showed him a point of view the Ellimist saw things from; He knew that his human son would meet up with four other humanss and hir own brother, Aximili, and that this very union of six was the entire point of the Ellimist's non-inteference.

To quote; "I lay there dying, knowing that Visser Three would pursue me. Knowing that this time, at long last, he would win over me.
And that's when five children, no older than Loren had been when I had first met her, came by. Three boys and two girls. Scared at the sight of me, but not so scared that they ran away.
One of them seemed especially drawn to me.
And when I saw his face, I knew why.
He could only be Loren's son. My son."

After that,, he gives the ability to morph to the kids; he knew this was the union of 5 timelines, and a sixth, later on. He did it because he 'knew what human children could do'.

Ultimately, there is never an actual reason why Elfangor would have the escafil device, but it is established that Escafil Devices are on board the dome ships, as shown by how Ax got four of them when the war ended.  One explanation would be that he would have one due to his rank, another would be he stole it. Whichever reason you pick, there are bound to be holes and missing links. However since the entire event was scripted to happen by the Ellimist (from the union of six to the end of the war due to the actions of the six) you could say that the Ellimist ensured Elfangor would have the device there.

Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2011, 06:29:09 AM »
My point is, with so much emphasis on the security of their technology, why would the Andalite military permit the a Blue Cube (that, we later on learn, can seemingly automatically charge ANY species with the morphing power by a mere touch) to be taken on the field. It shouldn't have left the Homeworld in the first place.
It does lead me to your first hypothesis, that of Elfangor quite simply having taken the Cube that would have been issued to him. BUT, it doesn't explain having no fail safes on the Andalites' part. Remember, Seerow's Kindness is judicial for them.

But I realize a lot of the elements of the series weren't fully worked out at this stage of the game, so things weren't very clear. For example, Prince Elfangor didn't seem in charge of the Andalite Fleet on this mission to intercede for Earth, so who was the War Prince? The photo of the Andalite family in his ship, were they a new family Elfangor had created?
Applegate and Grant told a great story from the word go, though.

For your second hypothesis: I'm only partly with it. I think that is the problem with the having all-powerful-time-fiddling characters such as the Ellimist. Eg: I still can't buy the 'lethal wound' that incapacitated him to heal through morphing... though there have been some plausible hypothesis relating to the Ellimist being at work (which you can find here in this thread somewhere). But there again, we have the Ellimist doing the Deus Ex Machina guimmicky.

Elfangor would have brought the Cube out of the ship with him, if he had full awareness of what he was supposed to do. As it played, the Cube was inside and Jake had to go and fetch it. Which leads me to think that Elfangor didn't crashland planning on sharing the technology with any the first kids that appeared in front of him... But in the Andalite Chronicles we get a slightly different picture...

Offline Terenia

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2011, 05:26:51 PM »
I'm not sure how much this influences the conversation, but in re-reading book #1 (yay new copies!) I noticed that Visser Three recognizes Elfangor not by looking at the Andalite himself, but by looking at his ship. It is easy to infer from there that Elfangor did in fact have a ship that was unique from other fighters.

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Offline Zero_Messiah

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2011, 08:53:03 PM »
Quote
My point is, with so much emphasis on the security of their technology, why would the Andalite military permit the a Blue Cube (that, we later on learn, can seemingly automatically charge ANY species with the morphing power by a mere touch) to be taken on the field. It shouldn't have left the Homeworld in the first place.
It does lead me to your first hypothesis, that of Elfangor quite simply having taken the Cube that would have been issued to him. BUT, it doesn't explain having no fail safes on the Andalites' part. Remember, Seerow's Kindness is judicial for them.
One reason could be because the Andalite Fleet was that; a fleet. It was meant to be a mobile home, home to thousands of andalites, and essentially a walking base. As a walking base, it was essentially the most protection they could have outside of having it on the main base on the homeworld.

Essentially, when the fleet journeyed to stop the Yeerks, I don't think any of them had any illusions as to how long the war was going to take. None of them was going to say 'a few years' and from the series, we've known that the entire war lasted more than half a century, with the pivotal battle being the last three years on Earth.

Since the war was expected to last long (what with the Yeerks considered a plague, and we all know how hard it is to stop an intergalactic plague), the Andalite Fleets would have probably been expected and built to be self sufficient. They would not have had to keep returning to the homeworld, be it for supplies, and/or upgraded military technology. (remember that the Escafil Device existed since the Hork Bajir war, but even then it was brand new; by then, upgrades in technology could have been vast, and if such technology was made only on the home world, the andalites would have basically been fighting with old technology. Essentially, they needed to keep the technology they had achieved on their mobile bases, either to further upgrade or explore the tech rather than having to return to the homeworld to do it every time).

lastly, we have to remember that the andalites take great pride in their dome ships. They never expected to be ambushed by the pool ship and subsequently, tthe blade ship. if the andalites had to take morphing technology out of their homeworld (with the reason being that it was impractical to return to the homeworld everytime they needed the cube for whatever reasons) it would have to be on the most safest place it could possibly be; ie. on a dome ship. Assigning one cube to each war prince would have simply made it so that there would be multiple people responsible for each cube; therefore shoulld the cubes ever need to be accounted for, the war princes need nearly be called up. Since each cube was entrusted to one war prince, no single person (save the Captain prince himself, maybe) would be able to compromise their entire stock of morphing technology. Also, since they wouldn't all be stored in the same place, a lucky thief or traitor wouldn't be able to send all the technology they had to the Yeerks.

Elfangor was a War Prince, but he was not leading the trip to Earth. That goes to Captain Nerefir, whom was the Captain Prince of the Dome Ship GalaxyTree. As for the photo, it would have been of Elfangors, his brother and their parents. The photo was never shown to be how old.

Quote
For your second hypothesis: I'm only partly with it. I think that is the problem with the having all-powerful-time-fiddling characters such as the Ellimist. Eg: I still can't buy the 'lethal wound' that incapacitated him to heal through morphing... though there have been some plausible hypothesis relating to the Ellimist being at work (which you can find here in this thread somewhere). But there again, we have the Ellimist doing the Deus Ex Machina guimmicky.
it wasn't the wound, it was exhaustion. Morphing requires focus, and Elfangor was too weak to even move into his ship and get a box. While it may not be a great reason, it was necessary for Elfangor to die, because his death was the primary motivation for the Andalites to keep fighting. Without his sacrifice, the animorphs would have just run away, pretended the truth never happened, and an alien didn't die in front of them. If they weren't shown how tough and dangerous their enemies could be, they would have been irresponsible with their power (which they only are very occasionally),.

David was a good example of an animorph who, without seeing the sacrifice of someone, and had lost everything he had (from his parents, his life, his home) and ended up hating the animorphs for dragging him into their fight.

Elfangor did have full awareness of what was to happen, but only after he met Tobias. He had brought the cube for reasons unknown (but which had no doubt been ensured by the Ellimist). he had met the five children, one of them his own son from a life long ago. It was only then, that he chose to broke the law and give those five children morphing powers, because it was he alone who knew what human children could do. That, and because he knew that his son would join with four others and his own brother, and that this union was of great significance to the ellimist. Having known that, he decided to entrust the animorphs with the morphing power.

It was also shown that Elfangor never intended to give the power to them. he had traveled to Earth, because he was defeated, dying and desperate enough t resort to the one weapon neither side could ever been allowed to possess; the Time Matrix. He failed, and he would have died, if not for the anirmorphs.


Offline Gafrash

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2011, 11:11:02 PM »
...we have to remember that the andalites take great pride in their dome ships. They never expected to be ambushed by the pool ship and subsequently, tthe blade ship. if the andalites had to take morphing technology out of their homeworld (with the reason being that it was impractical to return to the homeworld everytime they needed the cube for whatever reasons) it would have to be on the most safest place it could possibly be; ie. on a dome ship. Assigning one cube to each war prince would have simply made it so that there would be multiple people responsible for each cube; therefore shoulld the cubes ever need to be accounted for, the war princes need nearly be called up...

I disagree. The safest place is meant to be the Andalite Homeworld (eventhough we as readers know that there is some sort of subvert Yeerk operation going on in the Homeworld, the Andalites themselves don't). Visser One herself hinted that it was impossible to wage war on the Andalites in their front yard, the way their forces were set up. And by the same coin, their very own Yeerk Homeworld was under strong Andalite siege. The Yeerks had not dared go near them.
I am not saying that the morhping tech wouldn't have been secure in a Domeship, but I am questioning the practical use of having a tactical weapon, that grants morphing ability, out in the field.
The Andalite warriors are charged with the morphing power in military school, back in their homeworld, so there is no practical use in having the Escafil device out of the Homeworld, really.  
You are quite right, though, it could well be a case of Andalite vanity thing. Or, it could have very easily been Elfangor himself. Only we know he was going for the Time Mattrix when he crashlanded on the abandoned construction site.
I'm just saying, good as it was, there's a few loopholes in the first book that sets up the series here. And I fully understand that the series wasn't fully fleshed out at this initial stage, but, personally, I never liked to attribute everything to the all-powerful-time-bending-guru that is the Ellimist.


...he had brought the cube for reasons unknown (but which had no doubt been ensured by the Ellimist)...

Ima rest my case at this point.  :bored:
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 11:19:34 PM by Gafrash »

Offline Zero_Messiah

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2011, 11:33:02 AM »
Maybe it was 'bring your Escafil Device to war' day. There are a lot of questions that aren't answered, for example, why did Jake send Rachel into the Blade Ship with a hopeless mission, what happened to the Time Matrix (still buried in the construction site?), why did the andalites only send one dome ship into a zone that Elfangor knew was Yeerk infested (considering his actions and role in the war, it would not have been counter productive to just send two).

My reason (so take it as you will) was that the morphing cubes were held on dome ships because they were, like all pieces of technology, being researched and upgraded. The andalites are technologically advanced, to say the least. With their dome ships spread out across the galaxy, say an upgrade of the morphing cube was made, or a newer weapon. Would all dome ships return back to the homeworld to restock on newer weapons? That would be severely impractical.

Each domeship may have warriors, but they're supposed to be balanced; part warrior, scientist and so on. Therefore, it could be easily possible that the domeships have their own scientists on board whose job includes having to make new weapons, upgrade older weapons, new research or a breakthrough in old technology.

These scientists are going to need to work off a baseline (for example, an upgrade). it could be that the morphing cubes were given to dome ships so that the scientists there had something to work with; it'd be a lot easier to make breakthroughs and upgrades of old technology if you didn't have to rebuild whatever you're planning to upgrade in the first place.

In terms of practicality, it may not be very wise to even bring out the escafil device away from the homeworld, but then again, the andalites are no different from humans; they may not always do things in the most efficient way. There are many missions where the animorphs have made a dumb move to resolve an issue, and we've attributed this to them being human. Andalites aren't perfect either (as we all know) and it could be that just because they did things in a less efficient way doesn't mean they're wrong. More importantly, it could be that they later realized that it was probably a bad move to bring the escafil device with them to war; in that case, should they return back to the homeworld then to drop it off? That would be a serious waste of time and effort.

Offline cairnscairns

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Re: Group Re-Read: Week 1, #1 The Invasion
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2011, 11:25:50 PM »
1.   I don’t think that K.A. had really figured out much of Visser/elfangors histories at this point. I think she had it in her mind that the two had a history of past interactions, but nothing further

2.    The reason why elfangor would have had an picture, and the escafil device on board are mixed and complicated. I think the portrait for elfangor was a very personal touch, knowing his history now as this is a re-read of the series, it seems likely that elfangors past experience as a human, and Loosing his family, would mean that he would want his family to go where ever he went, via a portrait. I feel that the escafil device was not an official item. Elfangor was a bit of a rebel, he had more experience than most andalites, and probably realised the Power of the escafil device in ways that others could not.

3 I think that it was good to change it back, so that thought speech was only available in morph. This adds limitations and weaknesses to a human invasion of the yeerk pool like in book 17.

4: Tobias getting stuck in morph was no accident, he knew what he was doing, and really saw it as an escape from his awful reality. He had a terrible home life, he was bullied at school, and no-one had really shown him any reason to continue his human life. As a hawk he had power, and control over his own life.  I feel it was more of a situation where he was not really concerned about getting stuck in morph, and if it happened, he would accept it, rather than morphing for the sake of changing his life

5: I think, having read the series twice, that the characters in the book are all fantastic. Jake is still the unwilling leader, who can see into people and situations enough to make him a good leader. Tobias is still lost in the world, he is incredibly intelligent and can read the Really big picture really well, he is niave about combat and the fight, but he is still tobias. He also demonstrates his connection with elfangor well at the beginning of the book. Cassie is an animal lover, who is still sometimes oddly concerned about getting in trouble from her parents even though the planet is being invaded. And marco. He is still the intelligent, wise cracking, intelligent, humorous,  intelligent, short, intelligent, person he remains throughout the series. And Rachael. She is still a beautiful xena. A warrior within.  What is not demonstrated as well in this book as it is in some of the others is her intelligence, and her cunning.

6. cassie being the first person to receive the morphin power and fight is not suprising to me. Cassie is a very emotionally driven person, and when ever she see’s someone suffering, she wants to do something about it. Its not the concern about the future of the human race that drove her to agreeing, but rather, seeing elfangors pain

Cheers’
Cameron